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Author Topic: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood  (Read 481 times)

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Offline cgaviria

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The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« on: Sun Jul 23, 2017 - 15:21:48 »
This study explains what the "firmament" was and where the waters came from that caused the great flood of Noah, and also what the "foundations of the earth" are and why the earth is said to be founded on the seas. The study can be found in English here http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/06/the-firmament-of-ice-and-the-water-from-the-great-flood/ or in Spanish here http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/06/el-firmamento-de-hielo-y-el-agua-de-la-gran-inundacion/ . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.

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The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« on: Sun Jul 23, 2017 - 15:21:48 »

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 23, 2017 - 19:17:06 »
This study explains what the "firmament" was and where the waters came from that caused the great flood of Noah, and also what the "foundations of the earth" are and why the earth is said to be founded on the seas. The study can be found in English here http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/06/the-firmament-of-ice-and-the-water-from-the-great-flood/ or in Spanish here http://www.sabiduriadedios.co/2017/02/06/el-firmamento-de-hielo-y-el-agua-de-la-gran-inundacion/ . Let us begin a discussion on these matters.


Your first error...

Quote
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without order, and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:1-2 [JB200])

And it was above these waters that God made dry land appear on the third day of creation,


No, the Scriptures say that the dry land came out of the water, it does not say anywhere that God made land appear "above these waters" like you erroneously claim.

Second error...

Quote
Which is why the earth is said to be founded above the seas,

Of David. A psalm. The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters. (Psalm 24:1-2 [NIV])

For the dry land, which God called “earth”, is what he founded above the waters, which he called “seas”,


First, here it is interesting that you pick and choose different translations which you think proves your points, speaking of slight of hand...

Second, Scripture says that God made the land out of the water, not on the water...

2 Peter 3:5
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,

Genesis 1:9
And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.

Plus, as it has to do with Psa. 24:1-2, you appear to be overlooking the fact that David is speaking in Jewish rhym, poetry, he is not speaking literally.

Your third error:

Quote
Which means that the center of the earth is a sea of water, hence why the dead will one day come out of the sea,

and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; (Revelation 20:13 [YLT])


First on this point, you obviously know nothing about geology, the center of the earth's mass is too great to be liquid. While there are pools and reservoirs within the earth's crust, leading from the deep, the center of the earth is solid, which is where its magnetism comes from (you know, gravity, what keeps you from flying off into space).

Second, your assumption that Rev. 20:13 means that the sea that the dead will come up out of, because of your assumption that the center of the earth is liquid and not solid, is almost laughable. Are you thinking about this stuff before you write it? Especially in Revelation, the sea almost always stands for the peoples of the nations, not the literal sea. Since people are buried in the earth, and not in the sea, that is its most likely meaning here, especially because saying that they came out of the sea, but not out of the earth, where most of us will be and are, just doesn't make any sense.

Plus, death and hades are two spiritual places, not physical, so your interpretation does not make very good sense logically.

Fourth, you are going way out on a limb here...

Quote
And these waters that existed above the firmament were a layer of ice that encapsulated the entire earth, hence this vision of Ezekiel,

And the likeness above the head of the living creatures was as a firmament, as the vision of ice being stretched out over their wings on top. (Ezekiel 1:22 [ABP])
Which is the reason it was called a “firmament”, for this hard layer of ice was like a “vault”, “canopy”, or “tent”, or “curtain” in the sky,


Apparently you don't understand that the firmament that is addressed here is thin air, do you? The "firmament" as the KJV calls it (one of its many errors), is literally an expanse, as much more up to date versions use...which is probably why you didn't use them, because using them would shoot down your whole story line here. The earth was not encapsulated in ice, which is ridiculous in the least if you again understand science. The earth could not support life if it was encapsulated by ice...water vapor, yes, but not if that vapor was frozen solid.

You are quite imaginative, but do not do very much studying to see if what you are giving people is accurate truth. Trying to use a vision and the verbiage of that vision to support your claim was not a very wise thing to do at all, because you are only speculating on what Ezekiel was seeing, because he was only speculating on what he was seeing. Big mistake on your part.

And as for the last sentence, way off course. Again, "firmament" does NOT mean that it was solid or firm, that is only one definition of  the Hebrew word there, and does not fit the sentence (which is why it was a poor choice for the KJV people to use it in the first place). It was the expanse of air between the earth's crust and the layer of water vapor separating our atmosphere from outer space. The ONLY difference today between what was there, and what is there now, is that there is less of the water vapor there today than was there in the beginning. Vapor is not ice.

Fifth...

Quote
And because this firmament pressurized the air below it is why the waters below also gushed for upwards,

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month–on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.


Nonsense assumption and speculation on your part, if this is how you conduct all of your little studies, you are going to be in real trouble later. You do not know what you are talking about, and you demonstrate that you have little scientific knowledge of things altogether. If the pressure was that great, then the waters under the earth's crust would NOT have waited until that day to be pressurized and burst forth. Again, you are not thinking about what you are writing. Again, if the pressure of the earth was that great, just imagine how much differently life upon the face of the earth would have been like...or can you do that?

again...

Quote
Because just like a soda bottle releases pressure when a bottle is opened, so was pressure released when the ice layer collapsed, thus causing the waters from beneath to also gush forth upwards through the foundations of the earth, further inundating the world in conjunction with the waters that rained from above.


First, there was no ice.
Second, you are not thinking again, it sounds like you are only spewing this stuff forth in order to make yourself look like something you are not...
Again, if the pressure was that great, there would be no animal life on the surface of the earth, because we would have all been crushed by the pressure. You speak as if the pressure would have been contained only below the earth's surface (again, not thinking that through), but if your imagined ice bubble was OUTSIDE OF THE EARTH'S CRUST, then that pressure would have killed anything living.

Nice try, and I applaud the fact that you want to teach people the Scriptures, but you obviously are not called by God to do so, because you don't manifest any gifting to do so. Perhaps you should try playing an instrument in the church band, maybe that is your calling.

Blessings!



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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 23, 2017 - 19:17:06 »

Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 23, 2017 - 23:02:12 »
Your first error...

No, the Scriptures say that the dry land came out of the water, it does not say anywhere that God made land appear "above these waters" like you erroneously claim.

Second error...

First, here it is interesting that you pick and choose different translations which you think proves your points, speaking of slight of hand...

Second, Scripture says that God made the land out of the water, not on the water...

2 Peter 3:5
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,

Genesis 1:9
And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.

Plus, as it has to do with Psa. 24:1-2, you appear to be overlooking the fact that David is speaking in Jewish rhym, poetry, he is not speaking literally.

Your third error:

First on this point, you obviously know nothing about geology, the center of the earth's mass is too great to be liquid. While there are pools and reservoirs within the earth's crust, leading from the deep, the center of the earth is solid, which is where its magnetism comes from (you know, gravity, what keeps you from flying off into space).

Second, your assumption that Rev. 20:13 means that the sea that the dead will come up out of, because of your assumption that the center of the earth is liquid and not solid, is almost laughable. Are you thinking about this stuff before you write it? Especially in Revelation, the sea almost always stands for the peoples of the nations, not the literal sea. Since people are buried in the earth, and not in the sea, that is its most likely meaning here, especially because saying that they came out of the sea, but not out of the earth, where most of us will be and are, just doesn't make any sense.

Plus, death and hades are two spiritual places, not physical, so your interpretation does not make very good sense logically.

Fourth, you are going way out on a limb here...

Apparently you don't understand that the firmament that is addressed here is thin air, do you? The "firmament" as the KJV calls it (one of its many errors), is literally an expanse, as much more up to date versions use...which is probably why you didn't use them, because using them would shoot down your whole story line here. The earth was not encapsulated in ice, which is ridiculous in the least if you again understand science. The earth could not support life if it was encapsulated by ice...water vapor, yes, but not if that vapor was frozen solid.

You are quite imaginative, but do not do very much studying to see if what you are giving people is accurate truth. Trying to use a vision and the verbiage of that vision to support your claim was not a very wise thing to do at all, because you are only speculating on what Ezekiel was seeing, because he was only speculating on what he was seeing. Big mistake on your part.

And as for the last sentence, way off course. Again, "firmament" does NOT mean that it was solid or firm, that is only one definition of  the Hebrew word there, and does not fit the sentence (which is why it was a poor choice for the KJV people to use it in the first place). It was the expanse of air between the earth's crust and the layer of water vapor separating our atmosphere from outer space. The ONLY difference today between what was there, and what is there now, is that there is less of the water vapor there today than was there in the beginning. Vapor is not ice.

Fifth...

Nonsense assumption and speculation on your part, if this is how you conduct all of your little studies, you are going to be in real trouble later. You do not know what you are talking about, and you demonstrate that you have little scientific knowledge of things altogether. If the pressure was that great, then the waters under the earth's crust would NOT have waited until that day to be pressurized and burst forth. Again, you are not thinking about what you are writing. Again, if the pressure of the earth was that great, just imagine how much differently life upon the face of the earth would have been like...or can you do that?

again...

First, there was no ice.
Second, you are not thinking again, it sounds like you are only spewing this stuff forth in order to make yourself look like something you are not...
Again, if the pressure was that great, there would be no animal life on the surface of the earth, because we would have all been crushed by the pressure. You speak as if the pressure would have been contained only below the earth's surface (again, not thinking that through), but if your imagined ice bubble was OUTSIDE OF THE EARTH'S CRUST, then that pressure would have killed anything living.

Nice try, and I applaud the fact that you want to teach people the Scriptures, but you obviously are not called by God to do so, because you don't manifest any gifting to do so. Perhaps you should try playing an instrument in the church band, maybe that is your calling.

Blessings!

Are you blind and illiterate? I literally quoted the scriptures proving everything I claimed, so yes the scriptures do say exactly as I have spoken. The dry land was founded above the seas EXACTLY AS THE SCRIPTURES STATE. Read and stop being stubborn.

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 23, 2017 - 23:02:12 »

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jul 24, 2017 - 14:57:55 »
Wasn't this already posted?


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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jul 24, 2017 - 14:57:55 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jul 24, 2017 - 19:41:05 »
Are you blind and illiterate? I literally quoted the scriptures proving everything I claimed, so yes the scriptures do say exactly as I have spoken. The dry land was founded above the seas EXACTLY AS THE SCRIPTURES STATE. Read and stop being stubborn.

Not to be argumentative, but the obvious applies here. Dry land cannot be found below water level unless a rim of something stops it from spilling in.

Genesis must be taken into account for the actual creation of the earth.

NIV states Gen 1
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.

10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

KJV states

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1 (Parshah Bereishit) - Tanakh Online ...

ט  וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יִקָּווּ הַמַּיִם מִתַּחַת הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶל-מָקוֹם אֶחָד, וְתֵרָאֶה, הַיַּבָּשָׁה; וַיְהִי-כֵן.   9 And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so.
י  וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לַיַּבָּשָׁה אֶרֶץ, וּלְמִקְוֵה הַמַּיִם קָרָא יַמִּים; וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב.      10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good.

Assorted translations , saying the same basic thing. But not that the land was place above the waters.

You must remember that underneath every body of water and river, lake or sea there is land. Not dry, but it forms the base for the water to be on.

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jul 24, 2017 - 19:41:05 »



Offline SwordMaster

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jul 25, 2017 - 15:22:34 »
Are you blind and illiterate? I literally quoted the scriptures proving everything I claimed, so yes the scriptures do say exactly as I have spoken. The dry land was founded above the seas EXACTLY AS THE SCRIPTURES STATE. Read and stop being stubborn.

 rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Yah... rofl...I showed you right in your own words and quotes... rofl...where you blatently insert your own opinion into the text... rofl... and I am the one who is blind and illiterate!  rofl rofl rofl

When you grow up some more spiritually, perhaps we can openly communicate some more, but evidently you are so stuck on yourself and believing what you wrote, that you can't see beyond your nose.


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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jul 25, 2017 - 15:22:34 »

Offline notreligus

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jul 25, 2017 - 21:42:40 »
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Yah... rofl...I showed you right in your own words and quotes... rofl...where you blatently insert your own opinion into the text... rofl... and I am the one who is blind and illiterate!  rofl rofl rofl

When you grow up some more spiritually, perhaps we can openly communicate some more, but evidently you are so stuck on yourself and believing what you wrote, that you can't see beyond your nose.

Can you hear all of the applause?   You've scored a major victory here.   

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #7 on: Thu Jul 27, 2017 - 10:58:45 »
Can you hear all of the applause?   You've scored a major victory here.

It was a direct response to his words.


Offline cgaviria

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #8 on: Fri Jul 28, 2017 - 13:00:11 »
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

Yah... rofl...I showed you right in your own words and quotes... rofl...where you blatently insert your own opinion into the text... rofl... and I am the one who is blind and illiterate!  rofl rofl rofl

When you grow up some more spiritually, perhaps we can openly communicate some more, but evidently you are so stuck on yourself and believing what you wrote, that you can't see beyond your nose.

Of David. A psalm. The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters. (Psalm 24:1-2 [NIV])

They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water… (2 Peter 3:5 [NLT])

who spread out the earth upon the waters... (Psalm 136:6 [NIV])*

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #8 on: Fri Jul 28, 2017 - 13:00:11 »

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #9 on: Fri Jul 28, 2017 - 20:49:40 »
Of David. A psalm. The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it; for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters. (Psalm 24:1-2 [NIV])

They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water… (2 Peter 3:5 [NLT])

who spread out the earth upon the waters... (Psalm 136:6 [NIV])*

Exactly. You claimed in your faulty study that the land came from above the water, which all of these say otherwise.

And, you have no rebuttal for the claim that the firmament is not what you claimed?
you have no rebuttal for the claim that the layer of water above the firmament (expanse of air) was NOT ice?

Or did you not read all of the errors that you made in my first rebuttal?


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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #10 on: Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 15:43:04 »
What I find funny is that Psalms calls angelic beings as 'waters above'.  Scripture also uses 'waters' as a reference to physical beings all over so could the separation of the 'waters above' and 'waters below' just the separation of mankind from the angelic realms?

People also forget that Hebrew is not as precise a language as modern English.  There can be a LOT of leeway in how it can be translated.  Trying to prove a point based on the exact wording of a specific translation leads to obvious error.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #11 on: Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 18:58:26 »
What I find funny is that Psalms calls angelic beings as 'waters above'.  Scripture also uses 'waters' as a reference to physical beings all over so could the separation of the 'waters above' and 'waters below' just the separation of mankind from the angelic realms?
Probably not.  Those scrutinizing the details of Genesis 1 are missing the point.  It's a forest-trees problem.  All the repetitions and the progressing days in Gen 1 are there to demonstrate that creation took time - it was a process of formation, and was not instantaneous.  That the church has concluded precisely the opposite bears testimony to the sad state of affairs in the church.

Jarrod

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #12 on: Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 19:14:43 »
Probably not.  Those scrutinizing the details of Genesis 1 are missing the point.  It's a forest-trees problem.  All the repetitions and the progressing days in Gen 1 are there to demonstrate that creation took time - it was a process of formation, and was not instantaneous.  That the church has concluded precisely the opposite bears testimony to the sad state of affairs in the church.

Jarrod
Sorry but I actually believe in a 7 day creation just as scripture states.

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #13 on: Thu Aug 10, 2017 - 20:45:31 »
What I find funny is that Psalms calls angelic beings as "waters above".  Scripture also uses 'waters' as a reference to physical beings all over so could the separation of the 'waters above' and 'waters below' just the separation of mankind from the angelic realms?


Could you please give a reference to the Psalm that you say specifies that "angelic beings" are called "waters above"?
I did a search and did not find the words "angelic beings" associated with the words 'waters above" in any of the Psalms.  It would be helpful if you could reference the Psalm and verse where these two word groups are associated.

I do realize that multitudes of people are often referred to as "waters" in the Scripture.  Nevertheless and truly, in some Bible verses water can simply be water (H2O).

People also forget that Hebrew is not as precise a language as modern English.  There can be a LOT of leeway in how it can be translated.  Trying to prove a point based on the exact wording of a specific translation leads to obvious error.


You claim that "Hebrew is not as precise a language as modern English", and that "There can be a lot of leeway in how it can be translated", yet for some reason you do not hesitate to make the following comment, invariably restricting the meaning of the word "day" to a strict 24 hour time period.
Sorry but I actually believe in a 7 day creation just as scripture states.


I just want to share with you something I found with regard to the English words for day, morning and evening, words we find in most English translations of the Creation Story.

day:
- a period of opportunity or prominence
- an era of existence or influence
- the interval of light between two successive nights
- a time of light
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/day

1 John 1:5 says, "...God is Light..."  You see, when God is present, it is as day. When he is not, it is as night. While God is present and creating it is as day. When He steps back to consider and reflect upon what He has made, it is as night.

morning - The first or early part; the beginning
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/morning

evening - A later period or time
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evening

Every time God was present it was day. When He was beginning His work for the day, it was morning. When He was finishing with His work for the day, it was evening. And God saw that it was good. "...And the evening and the morning were the first day." (Genesis 1:5)

When God is present, it is a time of prominence, the Light is present, and it is day.
When God is not present, it is no longer a time of prominence, the Light is not present, and it is night.
The morning and the evening of a day is as the beginning and the ending of the day, wherein that day may very well be understood as that certain time of prominence, when God is present and shining on His Creation.

Indeed, if the light of God were to shine in us continually, there would be no darkness whatsoever in us.

I believe it is important to be as open-minded as we can when dealing with words written by men inspired of God thousands of years ago.  Read through all the definitions of the words they used, and accept the notion that we are not the authors, and we don't get to decide what they or God intended to convey.

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #14 on: Fri Aug 11, 2017 - 12:33:05 »
Probably not.  Those scrutinizing the details of Genesis 1 are missing the point.  It's a forest-trees problem.  All the repetitions and the progressing days in Gen 1 are there to demonstrate that creation took time - it was a process of formation, and was not instantaneous.  That the church has concluded precisely the opposite bears testimony to the sad state of affairs in the church.

Jarrod

Wow...so now you are an evolutionist, too?


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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #15 on: Fri Aug 11, 2017 - 19:06:33 »
Wow... so now you are an evolutionist, too?
Pheh.  No.  I could not care less about the "science" of evolution.  At best, it's irrelevant to the text.  More likely, Darwin's work is one of a socio-political philosphy designed to justify his own racism, and no science at all.

Evolution as a theory is about 3 millennia too late to try to relate to the Biblical text, anyway.  If you want actual answers on what the Biblical text means, you will need to compare it to something much, much older.

In that context (that is, the context in which is properly belongs), it ought to be understood as portraying God as God of Order.  He it is who opposes chaos, causing our world to grow orderly, rather than succumb to entropy.

The church has put God down as being the worker of the miraculous and supernatural: One who breaks the rules of Science or Nature.  That is bass ackwards.  God is the maker of rules...He who divides this from that, and says "this far and no further."  God's nature is not to break the Order; rather He is the One who establishes it.

This being so, I may say with confidence that God is not a God of instant gratification.  He plays the long game.  He develops things (and people) slowly, bringing them through a process until they reach perfection.  Mankind does not spring forth fully formed.  He is created as a drooling little pink ball that must be tended.  That is the pattern.  Apply it everywhere.

Follow the steps, one through seven.  If it were not a process, there wouldn't be a progression from one to seven.  IF creation were by fiat, it would be by fiat, not by a series of fiats.

Jarrod


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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #16 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 13:09:00 »
Pheh.  No.  I could not care less about the "science" of evolution.  At best, it's irrelevant to the text.  More likely, Darwin's work is one of a socio-political philosphy designed to justify his own racism, and no science at all.

Evolution as a theory is about 3 millennia too late to try to relate to the Biblical text, anyway.  If you want actual answers on what the Biblical text means, you will need to compare it to something much, much older.

In that context (that is, the context in which is properly belongs), it ought to be understood as portraying God as God of Order.  He it is who opposes chaos, causing our world to grow orderly, rather than succumb to entropy.

The church has put God down as being the worker of the miraculous and supernatural: One who breaks the rules of Science or Nature.  That is bass ackwards.  God is the maker of rules...He who divides this from that, and says "this far and no further."  God's nature is not to break the Order; rather He is the One who establishes it.

This being so, I may say with confidence that God is not a God of instant gratification.  He plays the long game.  He develops things (and people) slowly, bringing them through a process until they reach perfection.  Mankind does not spring forth fully formed.  He is created as a drooling little pink ball that must be tended.  That is the pattern.  Apply it everywhere.

Follow the steps, one through seven.  If it were not a process, there wouldn't be a progression from one to seven.  IF creation were by fiat, it would be by fiat, not by a series of fiats.

Jarrod

I am quickly learning that you put God in your own little box on many things. So, by your logic above, God does not do miracles today because that would be breaking the "order" that He has set things up in.

I think your intelligence factor (what appears to be higher than most) has led you down a shadowy path, WS. You have rejected two things now which are plain in Scripture, according to your own reasonings.

To me, that is just sad.


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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #17 on: Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 13:22:03 »
Swordmaster,

Strictly speaking, in the biblical meaning of miracle, God doesn't do miracles.  Miracles are supernatural acts or events performed by a person through the power of the Holy Spirit.

We usually refer to God's work in the world apart from natural order of things in the physical world which He set in motion as God's providence.  That providence may be natural or supernatural, but such are not biblically called miracles.

And then there is the work of redemption which is usually a separate designation from God's providential work.


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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #18 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 01:55:20 »
I am quickly learning that you put God in your own little box on many things. So, by your logic above, God does not do miracles today because that would be breaking the "order" that He has set things up in.
You continually take what anyone says, and try to extrapolate it.  I wouldn't mind it so much, if you were any good at it.  But you keep coming to bad conclusions, and putting words in my mouth (and others) that do not reflect reality.  Knock it off, would ya?

I am a firm opponent of all arguments that start with "God can't," or "God doesn't," or "God won't."  I'm on the record on this, early and often.  We're up to something like 3 or 4 years of dialogue.  How do you not know this?

I think your intelligence factor (what appears to be higher than most) has led you down a shadowy path, WS. You have rejected two things now which are plain in Scripture, according to your own reasonings.
It's nothing so dramatic.  I just understand Scripture differently than you.  In things you call plain, I have found another layer of meaning.  You have a long line of scholars on whose shoulders you stand.  I prefer to stand directly on source materials.  I am comfortable with this arrangement.  And you... are Yertle the Turtle, from where I stand.

To me, that is just sad.
No, you aren't.  You absolutely love dropping this line on people.  You use it so often, you may as well put it in your signature.

Jarrod

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #19 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 01:59:06 »
...acts or events performed by a person through the power of the Holy Spirit...
People constitute God's body.  No reason to separate God from this, as if it were not His actions.

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #20 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 03:36:55 »
You continually take what anyone says, and try to extrapolate it.  I wouldn't mind it so much, if you were any good at it.  But you keep coming to bad conclusions, and putting words in my mouth (and others) that do not reflect reality.  Knock it off, would ya?

I am a firm opponent of all arguments that start with "God can't," or "God doesn't," or "God won't."  I'm on the record on this, early and often.  We're up to something like 3 or 4 years of dialogue.  How do you not know this?
It's nothing so dramatic.  I just understand Scripture differently than you.  In things you call plain, I have found another layer of meaning.  You have a long line of scholars on whose shoulders you stand.  I prefer to stand directly on source materials.  I am comfortable with this arrangement.  And you... are Yertle the Turtle, from where I stand.
No, you aren't.  You absolutely love dropping this line on people.  You use it so often, you may as well put it in your signature.

Jarrod
Brother, you unmasked this man as well as anyone has ever done so and did a very good job of doing so with few words. He picked a tree and went up it, and found a lion waiting for him. Could not have happened to a better person. The good thing, it could serve to help him be more Christ like in his speaking to others~this would be a good thing.

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #21 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 07:10:35 »
People constitute God's body.  No reason to separate God from this, as if it were not His actions.

Yes there is a reason; it is what God has done.  God has made the distinction.

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #22 on: Sun Aug 13, 2017 - 13:57:35 »
Yes there is a reason; it is what God has done.  God has made the distinction.


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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #23 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 23:00:09 »
WS said...

Quote
Quote from: SwordMaster on Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 13:09:00

   
Quote
I am quickly learning that you put God in your own little box on many things. So, by your logic above, God does not do miracles today because that would be breaking the "order" that He has set things up in.

You continually take what anyone says, and try to extrapolate it.  I wouldn't mind it so much, if you were any good at it.  But you keep coming to bad conclusions, and putting words in my mouth (and others) that do not reflect reality.  Knock it off, would ya?

Negative...I only extrapolate things that I don't know, and recently that is only here with you. And BTW...what I stated above is not an extrapolation on your part, but pretty much exactly comes out of what you stated that you didn't bother to quote in your reply.

Quote
I am a firm opponent of all arguments that start with "God can't," or "God doesn't," or "God won't."  I'm on the record on this, early and often.  We're up to something like 3 or 4 years of dialogue.  How do you not know this?

I have not entered into any opposite arguments regarding you before that I can think of, so no...I didn't know this. Besides that as it may be...saying that you don't believe that God created in seven literal days, which is what the grammar of the texts indicate, and which Moses ratifies in other places in the books that he wrote, as well as Jesus Himself...tells me that you don't believe everything that the Scriptures teach. You take the evolutionary model of creation...so I suppose that you believe it took God billions of years in order to make the earth...and I also suppose that you believe God did not speak the animals into existence either?

Quote
Quote from: SwordMaster on Sat Aug 12, 2017 - 13:09:00

   
Quote
I think your intelligence factor (what appears to be higher than most) has led you down a shadowy path, WS. You have rejected two things now which are plain in Scripture, according to your own reasonings.

It's nothing so dramatic.  I just understand Scripture differently than you.  In things you call plain, I have found another layer of meaning.  You have a long line of scholars on whose shoulders you stand.  I prefer to stand directly on source materials.  I am comfortable with this arrangement.  And you... are Yertle the Turtle, from where I stand.

That's funny...considering that most likely the scholars upon whom I stand most likely stand upon the same source documents that you claim...so again, it comes down to - in my opinion - which of us is walking in the Spirit so as to be able to hear His voice in guiding us into the truth, and which one of us is relying strictly upon the carnal mind in coming to our conclusions. And if I'm Yertle the turtle, then you can only be Beaky the buzzard..."no, no, no, ....."

https://youtu.be/8mKIuZ4tIzk

 ::tippinghat::


Offline SwordMaster

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #24 on: Tue Aug 15, 2017 - 23:02:49 »
Red...

Quote
Brother, you unmasked this man as well as anyone has ever done so and did a very good job of doing so with few words. He picked a tree and went up it, and found a lion waiting for him. Could not have happened to a better person. The good thing, it could serve to help him be more Christ like in his speaking to others~this would be a good thing.

Red, you have no room to speak on any count here. You have been unmasked constantly, and you have not bent the knee to humility not one time...a false humility, indeed, out of arrogance...but nothing else.


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Firmament of Ice and the Water from the Great Flood
« Reply #25 on: Wed Aug 16, 2017 - 01:20:50 »
Besides that as it may be...saying that you don't believe that God created in seven literal days, which is what the grammar of the texts indicate, and which Moses ratifies in other places in the books that he wrote, as well as Jesus Himself...tells me that you don't believe everything that the Scriptures teach.
Do you think if you repeat yourself enough times, it will become true?  I interpret differently than you.  That doesn't mean I don't believe.  I just don't agree with you about what it says/means.  (It turns out you are not the pre-eminent authority in interpreting Scripture.)

You take the evolutionary model of creation...so I suppose that you believe it took God billions of years in order to make the earth...and I also suppose that you believe God did not speak the animals into existence either?
I don't take the evolutionary model.  I take the ancient model.  I read history books and source material; not science books.

The ancient model says the earth was born of water and chaos, and that God brought order to creation.  Does that mesh with a particular scientific theory?  I don't really care.  Today's scientific theories are as fleeting as dust in the wind.

That's funny...considering that most likely the scholars upon whom I stand most likely stand upon the same source documents that you claim...so again, it comes down to - in my opinion - which of us is walking in the Spirit so as to be able to hear His voice in guiding us into the truth, and which one of us is relying strictly upon the carnal mind in coming to our conclusions. And if I'm Yertle the turtle, then you can only be Beaky the buzzard..."no, no, no, ....."
I like those cartoons.  But have you ever read Yertle the Turtle?  There was a point to that.  Yertle the Turtle creates a giant stack of Turtles... it isn't important why.  The point is that with so many turtles in the stack, it only takes one turtle to fail, and the whole stack collapses.  I find this story depicts very well the transmission of "sacred tradition" (or whatever your flavor of Christianity calls it) very well.

I'll be down here on the Rock, and you can look down on me from your great stack of theologians, or turtles, or whatever.  But, confidentially, some of those guys in your stack have got some serious warts.  If you find one day that your stack is toppling, and you need a hand out of the mud, you know where to find me.

Jarrod

 

     
anything