Author Topic: The Five Solas  (Read 1243 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Rella

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10078
  • Manna: 664
The Five Solas
« on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 07:37:30 »
Touched briefly on in another thread would you all explain what is wrong with these and why you do not believe?

Briefly...

1.Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.

2. Sola Fide (“faith alone”): We are saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

3. Sola Gratia (“grace alone”): We are saved by the grace of God alone.

4. Solus Christus (“Christ alone”): Jesus Christ alone is our Lord, Savior, and King.

5. Soli Deo Gloria (“to the glory of God alone”): We live for the glory of God alone.

Or do you contend that some are right, while others are wrong?

Certainly there is much discussion beyond the above simplifications, yet the simplicity does offer an apt description.

Just curious.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16746
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #1 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 07:57:08 »
First off lets start with #1 - sola scriptura.

Since according to the doctrine, the Bible is a self contained whole with nothing external needed to it, (specifically no tradition) is never found in scripture, it is kinda self defeating since sola scriptura is itself a tradition and not biblical.  In fact, there is nothing contained in scripture that even defines what is and what is not scripture.  Again, that is a tradition and not biblical.

The various writings that happened over 1500 years by numerous authors each wrote to their own time and culture in the language of their day.  Without proper understanding of those languages (and how they evolved over time) and the cultures, we are at a loss in many instances to properly understand the intent of the writers. Those understandings are all external to the actual texts, so they violate sola scriptura

Another point is using a translation.  It is possible to translate some things in almost opposite ways and both be legitimate translations.  Hence the Italian phrase Traladore Traitore - meaning the translator is a traitor. So every translation will reflect and be biased toward the doctrinal slant of the translator(s).

And when you read any biblical text, you will unconsciously fit it into your own world view and doctrinal understanding.

All of that adds up to sola scriptura being an impossibility.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 07:59:17 by DaveW »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16746
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #2 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:32:29 »
Rella - if you are really interested in this topic, i suggest you get that same book from FFOZ:

https://ffoz.com/the-five-solae-book.html


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #2 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 08:32:29 »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9650
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 09:02:55 »
 ::pondering:: I just might want to jump into this later today or whenever I find time to do so.  ::yummy::

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 09:02:55 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12627
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 11:56:35 »
Since according to the doctrine, the Bible is a self contained whole with nothing external needed to it
Whatever external you think needs to be added is perhaps what has led you astray on so many topics discussed here.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 11:56:35 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Manna: 368
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 12:53:51 »
Whatever external you think needs to be added is perhaps what has led you astray on so many topics discussed here.
Nobody is able to avoid external reference.  If you're using a dictionary, you're already using an external reference.  But you're probably using at least a concordance/lexicon, which contains far, far more commentary.

It's more a matter of vetting your external references, than of avoiding them altogether, which is an impossibility.

Jarrod

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 12:53:51 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12627
  • Manna: 320
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 15:02:04 »
Nobody is able to avoid external reference.  If you're using a dictionary, you're already using an external reference.  But you're probably using at least a concordance/lexicon, which contains far, far more commentary.

It's more a matter of vetting your external references, than of avoiding them altogether, which is an impossibility.

Jarrod

Of course, but that is not really the subject or the meaning of Sola Scriptura.

Online Rella

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10078
  • Manna: 664
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 16:42:43 »
Nobody is able to avoid external reference.  If you're using a dictionary, you're already using an external reference.  But you're probably using at least a concordance/lexicon, which contains far, far more commentary.

It's more a matter of vetting your external references, than of avoiding them altogether, which is an impossibility.

Jarrod


External references  ::pondering::

That in and of itself is a problem for one is at the mercy (?) of who they are reading and what is being said as being viable or not.

There are often multiple commentaries regarding any specific scripture and they do not always agree with each other.

Likely there is no way to know which is right or which is wrong.

Now... as you each will tell me I am wrong  rofl I will tell you what I understand.

My OP.

1. Sola Scriptura (“Scripture alone”): The Bible alone is our highest authority.

While translated "Scripture Alone"~ Make no mistake, the bible is our highest authority...there can be no doubt about that... The Scriptures are our ultimate authority.

But ...this doesn’t mean that the Bible is the only place where truth is found... it does mean that everything else we learn about God and his world, and all other authorities, should be interpreted in light of Scripture.

The Bible gives us everything we need for our theology.

Wiki tells us:

Sola scriptura ("by scripture alone" in English) is a theological doctrine held by some Protestant Christian denominations that posits the Christian scriptures as the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.

While the scriptures' meaning is mediated through many kinds of subordinate authority - such as the ordinary teaching offices of a denominated church, the ecumenical creeds and the councils of the Catholic church, amongst others - sola scriptura in contrast rejects any original infallible authority other than the Bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura

Personally , I base my faith on the Holy Words found in the inspired book we call the Bible. But I am speaking only for myself......

I definitely am comfortable with " Sola Scriptura" .

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Manna: 368
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 16:50:07 »
I definitely am comfortable with " Sola Scriptura" .
The point of Sola Scriptura was to put Scripture above Ecclesiastical Authority.  The catholic position at the time gave the church's authorities an absolute monopoly on establishing doctrine and enforcing it.

In modern days, churches have used it as a justification for excluding from consideration virtually all other source material... using it to justify the church abuse it was meant to prevent.

Jarrod

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 16:50:07 »

Offline fish153

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5746
  • Manna: 461
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #9 on: Tue Jun 29, 2021 - 17:22:12 »
DaveW--

Peter, when referring to Paul's writings says "he writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).

Peter considered Paul's writings "scripture" way back then. Just wanted to share that.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16746
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #10 on: Wed Jun 30, 2021 - 04:55:44 »
Peter, when referring to Paul's writings says "he writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).

Peter considered Paul's writings "scripture" way back then. Just wanted to share that.
Yeah, I was aware of that, but thanks for posting it as maybe some reading were NOT aware of it.  It was certainly a surprise 40+ years ago when that point clicked in.

Offline Texas Conservative

  • Ethical Dissenter "All 8 Symptoms" Chief Justice! "Radical Political Conservative" Certified Resident Board Genius, it is...Directly. Observable.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12175
  • Manna: 400
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jun 30, 2021 - 06:07:33 »
Rella - if you are really interested in this topic, i suggest you get that same book from FFOZ:

https://ffoz.com/the-five-solae-book.html

I read the chapter in this book since it was a free preview.  Not impressed.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9650
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jun 30, 2021 - 06:11:03 »
Nobody is able to avoid external reference.  If you're using a dictionary, you're already using an external reference.  But you're probably using at least a concordance/lexicon, which contains far, far more commentary.

It's more a matter of vetting your external references, than of avoiding them altogether, which is an impossibility.

Jarrod
Greetings Jarrod~we agree with you, that we must use certain help only to better understand what we are reading and searching to understand.

Sola scriptura~Simply means to any child of God that scripture alone is the final authority on all doctrines and the only authority concerning practical living which is the sum of a believer's contention with false prophets and their teachings and his own personal understanding. We must bring it all back to the word of God~not to what some ministers may teach or not teach.

We agree with Martin Luther on this point:
Quote
"a simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it".
We live by the word of God, and from the scriptures, we seek the truth within them. We do not need extra-biblical information to know the truth as though without this or that we could not know if what we believe is the teachings of the scriptures.

Example of what I'm saying: I do not need to first understand history BEFORE I can understand such books as Daniel, and the Olivet discourse, or Revelation..... ALL truths to those books and scriptures are contain WITHIN the scriptures, the missing link is not outside of them, the missing link is in our lack of ability to properly understand what we are reading and our lack of ability to put scriptures together so we can understand what we are reading in the scriptures. 

More on this one point later........I got to take a little granddaughter to camp and she is patiently waiting on me at the moment, but not sure how long that's going to last.   ::smile::

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16746
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #13 on: Wed Jun 30, 2021 - 07:52:05 »
Sola scriptura~Simply means to any child of God that scripture alone is the final authority on all doctrines and the only authority concerning practical living which is the sum of a believer's contention with false prophets and their teachings and his own personal understanding. We must bring it all back to the word of God~not to what some ministers may teach or not teach.
Unfortunately Red, that is not the only understanding of Sola Scriptura. 

Many reject the idea that Scripture was written within a certain culture and mindset, and many nuances are lost if you do not take that into account. Cultural, historical and linguistic factors are "extra-biblical" and therefore MUST be rejected.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Manna: 368
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jun 30, 2021 - 11:49:40 »
Example of what I'm saying: I do not need to first understand history BEFORE I can understand such books as Daniel, and the Olivet discourse, or Revelation..... ALL truths to those books and scriptures are contain WITHIN the scriptures, the missing link is not outside of them, the missing link is in our lack of ability to properly understand what we are reading and our lack of ability to put scriptures together so we can understand what we are reading in the scriptures.
No.  Exactly wrong.

Within Scripture, there are a bunch of references to things outside of Scripture - historical events, other writings, etc.  It's impossible to fully understand Scripture without some reference to fill in things that Scripture alludes to, but does not explain.

You don't need to take external reference as an authority, but it's needful to inform our understanding of Scripture.  For instance, the book of Amos won't be properly understood without knowing  that there was a major earthquake in northern Israel around that time.  Revelation's message to the church at Pergamon makes more sense when you know about the Pergamon Altar.  The message to the church at Laodicea holds more meaning when you know that one of Laodicea's exports was eye salve.  I could go on and on with examples.

Jarrod

Online Rella

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10078
  • Manna: 664
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jul 01, 2021 - 12:33:41 »
Well, we have some disagreement as to the meaning of sola scriptura.

I fall on the side of scripture alone is the final authority on all doctrines. But it is the defining and translations of siad scripture
that is problematic.

If you have an"explanation" from an outside source one needs to be able to know beyond doubt that that was what the author was meaning. Unfortunately, that is rare. Proof, that is. And every single re-translation of the bible has just enough to every so slightly turn from previous translations there is no telling where it will stop.

Even translations from Hebrew and Greek miss the mark for as in all languages there are words and phrases that cannot be translated into another... but only a generalized idea.

So you wonder why I am a sola scriptura supporter?

For the simple reason that this is the only "inspired" book we have even not being able to read the original languages and I am trusting the translations are close enough  but are stand alone scripture translations that need not be paired with outside commentary which of itself is quite confusing at times.

What are your thoughts on the other 4 Solas?

Offline trifecta

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 794
  • Manna: 24
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #16 on: Fri Jul 23, 2021 - 19:19:47 »
As to the OP,


Sola scriptura - No.  I Tim 3:15 says the *church* is the pillar of truth.  Interpreting the scriptures is not easy (2 Peter 3:16) and that's where the church comes in (well, it does more than that).  If reading the scriptures were so easy, there wouldn't be thousands of Protestant denominations.  Jarrod is right in that every piece of writing has context, including historical context,which usually is important to understanding a text.  No one bought into sola scriptura for a thousand years.  What changed? The Protestants needed a reason to break with a 1500 year old church.  Oh, and Protestant founders didn't really believe sola scriptura anyway.  Epistle of straw? - not the way to treat a holy book.

Secondly, where does it say in scripture to look at the NT as the only authority for the truth. (Hint: it doesn't).  Wouldn't had Jesus said something about it in his ministry?

As a former Protestant (and Catholic), I thought that scripture was the way to get back to the original church.  In fact, Protestants have a framework for reading the Bible as the rest of us do.  Moreover, their interpretation of Scripture ignores important parts in favor of others. Luther himself said his theology is based on the Book of Romans.  Then, why have the other books of the New Testament?

The final problem with sola scriptura is it leaves out the working of God at any time after the NT times.  Yes, Scripture is useful to reject certain beliefs, but if we can't trust anything written after that time, God seems quite limited to me.  The Ecumenical Councils (yes, I am an Orthodox Christian) dealt with issues of the day with authority.  All Protestants can do today is argue about these things without conclusion.

Sole fide - No.  Have you read the Epistle of James? It pretty much refutes that one.  As evidence, I once again cite Luther who rather than deal with the issue of works simply "ripped [James] out of [his] Bible."

The other solas look good to me.   

Online Rella

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10078
  • Manna: 664
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #17 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 11:06:09 »
As to the OP,


Sola scriptura - No.  I Tim 3:15 says the *church* is the pillar of truth.  Interpreting the scriptures is not easy (2 Peter 3:16) and that's where the church comes in (well, it does more than that).

The church is comprised of "mortal men" who error in interpretation just like we all do.  If you do not understand that
then there is little that can be said.


  If reading the scriptures were so easy, there wouldn't be thousands of Protestant denominations.  Jarrod is right in that every piece of writing has context, including historical context,which usually is important to understanding a text.  No one bought into sola scriptura for a thousand years.  What changed? The Protestants needed a reason to break with a 1500 year old church.  Oh, and Protestant founders didn't really believe sola scriptura anyway.  Epistle of straw? - not the way to treat a holy book.

Secondly, where does it say in scripture to look at the NT as the only authority for the truth. (Hint: it doesn't).  Wouldn't had Jesus said something about it in his ministry?

As a former Protestant (and Catholic), I thought that scripture was the way to get back to the original church.  In fact, Protestants have a framework for reading the Bible as the rest of us do.  Moreover, their interpretation of Scripture ignores important parts in favor of others. Luther himself said his theology is based on the Book of Romans.  Then, why have the other books of the New Testament?

The final problem with sola scriptura is it leaves out the working of God at any time after the NT times.
you follow, please enlighten me.

Are you refencing the time after the books were written? If you have any advanced writings that you follow, please enlighten me.

I will admit that the books of the Holy words were cherry picked and I often complain about that... but personally am not familiar with any written after the collection of 66, 72 or 75 (depending on what you read).

As others will tell you, I have been rather sesperate for anything written after 70AD



 Yes, Scripture is useful to reject certain beliefs, but if we can't trust anything written after that time, God seems quite limited to me. 

God is limited in nothing. It is man who puts the limitations on God and it is man who has translated the original languages in such a way to make the read differently to different people. YOU certainly are aware of that fact.

The Ecumenical Councils (yes, I am an Orthodox Christian) dealt with issues of the day with authority.  All Protestants can do today is argue about these things without conclusion.

Yes... and I know folks from Orthodox Christian ( both Greek as well as Orthodox)  and 1 Russian Orthodox ( now dead) beliefs as well as Roman Catholic and you people have your own issues of getting a consensus.

Sole fide - No.

???  This is not worthy of comment for it says it all about you and your chosen belief structure.

 Have you read the Epistle of James?

Yes.

It pretty much refutes he hat one.  As evidence, I once again cite Luther who rather than deal with the issue of works simply "ripped [James] out of [his] Bible."

The other solas look good to me. 


Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16746
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #18 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 14:28:28 »
Sola scriptura - No.  I Tim 3:15 says the *church* is the pillar of truth.  Interpreting the scriptures is not easy (2 Peter 3:16) and that's where the church comes in (well, it does more than that). 
So where does your church stand on the FACT that Paul says scriptural interpretation belongs to the JEWS?

Romans 3:1
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.


And:

Romans 11:29
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


If God gave His "oracles," including the understanding of them to the Jews, to the Circumcision, and if that gift is irrevocable, then  they should be the only ones trying to interpret them.

Quote
If reading the scriptures were so easy, there wouldn't be thousands of Protestant denominations.
Indeed.  That is what happens when you let gentiles do the job they were not meant to do.

Offline Texas Conservative

  • Ethical Dissenter "All 8 Symptoms" Chief Justice! "Radical Political Conservative" Certified Resident Board Genius, it is...Directly. Observable.
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12175
  • Manna: 400
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #19 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 15:15:41 »
Naw Dave. Very few Jews followed God's Word and almost none understood Jesus as the Messiah without being knocked on the head.

The interpretation that you need Jews now to properly understand the bible is hot garbage.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Manna: 368
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #20 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 17:27:56 »
As to the OP,

Sola scriptura - No.  I Tim 3:15 says the *church* is the pillar of truth.  Interpreting the scriptures is not easy (2 Peter 3:16) and that's where the church comes in (well, it does more than that).  If reading the scriptures were so easy, there wouldn't be thousands of Protestant denominations.  Jarrod is right in that every piece of writing has context, including historical context,which usually is important to understanding a text.  No one bought into sola scriptura for a thousand years.  What changed? The Protestants needed a reason to break with a 1500 year old church.  Oh, and Protestant founders didn't really believe sola scriptura anyway.  Epistle of straw? - not the way to treat a holy book.

Secondly, where does it say in scripture to look at the NT as the only authority for the truth. (Hint: it doesn't).  Wouldn't had Jesus said something about it in his ministry?

As a former Protestant (and Catholic), I thought that scripture was the way to get back to the original church.  In fact, Protestants have a framework for reading the Bible as the rest of us do.  Moreover, their interpretation of Scripture ignores important parts in favor of others. Luther himself said his theology is based on the Book of Romans.  Then, why have the other books of the New Testament?

The final problem with sola scriptura is it leaves out the working of God at any time after the NT times.  Yes, Scripture is useful to reject certain beliefs, but if we can't trust anything written after that time, God seems quite limited to me.  The Ecumenical Councils (yes, I am an Orthodox Christian) dealt with issues of the day with authority.  All Protestants can do today is argue about these things without conclusion.

Sole fide - No.  Have you read the Epistle of James? It pretty much refutes that one.  As evidence, I once again cite Luther who rather than deal with the issue of works simply "ripped [James] out of [his] Bible."

The other solas look good to me.
Hey trifecta,

Long time no see.  Nice to see you, though.  You are always welcome here.   ::tippinghat::

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13882
  • Manna: 368
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #21 on: Sun Jul 25, 2021 - 17:33:08 »
The interpretation that you need Jews now to properly understand the bible is hot garbage.
Who is a Jew, though?

Because from where I stand, most of the people who self-identify as Jewish don't meet the criteria that God set down.  ::peeking::

Online johntwayne

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5508
  • Manna: 146
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 01:36:04 »
Quote
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
(Rom 2:28-29)

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 9650
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 04:19:44 »
So where does your church stand on the FACT that Paul says scriptural interpretation belongs to the JEWS?
Dave, you have smoked something you should not be smoking~where in the scriptures especially so in the NT that only Jews can interpret the scriptures? You sound like an intoxicated person, or maybe it's your faith in the messianic religion that has caused you to err~most likely the latter.
Quote from: DaveW on: Yesterday at 14:28:28
If God gave His "oracles," including the understanding of them to the Jews, to the Circumcision, and if that gift is irrevocable, then they should be the only ones trying to interpret them.
The gift that is irrevocable is the gift of eternal life~there's many things that God took from Israel after the flesh, actually just about everything~only those Jews that were children of his promises they along with the Gentiles are the true Jews of the holy scriptures~they are the two witnesses of Revelation 11 and ALL of them are a holy priesthood teaching the oracles of God. What would natural Jews know in comparison to spiritual-minded Gentiles? Nothing, he/she would still be looking for a rebuilt temple and reinstating animals sacrifices, and Jesus reigning over a people who hated him and rejected his teachings while on earth. The same people rejected their own fleshly NT apostles who told them that ONLY children of FAITH are the true children of Abraham, bloodline is not the way to earn favors toward God.   

Abraham is the legitimate father of MANY NATIONS and is not the true father of unregenerate Israel in the true biblical sense.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 04:27:28 by RB »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16746
  • Manna: 199
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Five Solas
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jul 26, 2021 - 06:08:05 »
The gift that is irrevocable is the gift of eternal life~there's many things that God took from Israel after the flesh,
Um Red, did you miss the part that "gifts" was plural?  Not singular?

And it is a general statement, meaning all gifts God gave to anyone.

 

     
anything