Author Topic: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath  (Read 2923 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Rella

  • ..
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8159
  • Manna: 659
  • callmerella@gmail.com
The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 08:26:03 »
The following is from the thread http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-truth-about-the-timing-of-the-rapture/msg1055173824/?boardseen#new

And the folloing quote is from @ChoirLoft

I did not want to muddy up that thread but this does deserve to ba a topic all on its own.
Quote
"The forth commandment says to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy (separate the day unto God).  That day is SATURDAY, but the RCC changed it to Sunday.   Why?  They did it simply because they could, and post-protestant churches follow in lock step with Catholic doctrine without even asking why or consulting their Bibles.

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50


Why is it Saturday and not Friday Evening to Saturday evening sundowns or 6PMs?

Christian Forums and Message Board

The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 08:26:03 »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #1 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 13:32:29 »
The Sabbath or the 7th day in Jewish time reckoning IS Sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday. The first day is Sundown Saturday to Sundown Sunday. I guess his reference only to Saturday was an attempt to link Jewish time reckoning to our time reckoning which is Midnight to Midnight. He might have been clearer to have said the 7th day rather than Saturday.

Online Texas Conservative

  • Certified Resident Board Genius....The MAN, the MYTH, the LEGEND!
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10771
  • Manna: 377
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #2 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 14:04:59 »
The Sabbath or the 7th day in Jewish time reckoning IS Sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday. The first day is Sundown Saturday to Sundown Sunday. I guess his reference only to Saturday was an attempt to link Jewish time reckoning to our time reckoning which is Midnight to Midnight. He might have been clearer to have said the 7th day rather than Saturday.

Too busy hollering from the choir loft to think straight.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #2 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 14:04:59 »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #3 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 14:44:58 »

Why is it Saturday and not Friday Evening to Saturday evening sundowns or 6PMs?
GOOD QUESTION, a question that I have answered already in one of those debates on the Sabbath. The Jewish sabbath started at sundown FRIDAY and went to sundown SATURDAY.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Mark 16:1,2~And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun."
Jesus arose from the dead AFTER MIDNIGHT starting the first day of the week which is our SUNDAY! He was in the grave for THREE FULL DAYS and THREE FULL NIGHTS. He was crucified Wednesday and placed in the grave before the sun went down on the first day of his death. Wednesday to Thursday is ONE day....Thursday to Friday is TWO days....Friday to Saturday the Jewish Sabbath would be three full days sometime after midnight he came up out of the grave VICTORIOUS and we with him!   

THEREFORE, we as NT Christians meet together on the LORD'S DAY which is the first day of the week just as they did in the beginning. ChoirLoft is singing the songs of Judaism, we sing the songs of The LAMB that was slain, died but has risen to live as KING overall world without end.
Quote from: John
Revealtion 5:9-12~And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
 
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 03:21:07 by RB »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #3 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 14:44:58 »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #4 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 15:14:29 »
Red, in Jewish reckoning of time our Sunday night at midnight is within  their Monday or 2nd day of the week. ::geek::

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #4 on: Wed Nov 11, 2020 - 15:14:29 »



Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #5 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 03:16:30 »
Red, in Jewish reckoning of time our Sunday night at midnight is within  their Monday or 2nd day of the week. ::geek::
Jaime, I understand how the Jews observed the weekly sabbath~ I said Christ arose from the dead after 12:00 SATURDAY NIGHT before the sun came up on the first day of the week based on Mark 16:1,2. We know how the Jews observed the weekly sabbath timeline, yet the world in generally based a day starting from 12:00 midnight to the following 12:00 midnight as one day.
Quote from: Luke
Acts 20:7~And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Midnight ended one day and started another according to Luke in this passage before us. I believe it did for the Jews as well ONLY their weekly sabbath was counted differetly~correct me if you think I'm missing something, I'm listening.   
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 03:19:19 by RB »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #5 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 03:16:30 »

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #6 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 04:43:20 »
The meeting in Acts 20:7 took place Saturday evening following the Sabbath that ended at sundown. Midnight on the first day of the week occurred on Saturday at Midnight for these Jews as always. If not Paul Preached about 30 hours in lieu of about 6 hours. 30 hours would have been totally unrealistic. As Jews they wouldn’t have traveled on the Sabbath but on the day following the Sabbath. To me this verse is a very poor proof of Sunday worship, though it is the main one used. From studies about the culture, the lights in the upper room (told to us for a reason) where they met was because of a post Sabbath candle light lighting ceremony called a Havdilah. THEN they met and broke bread and ate a meal and Paul spoke to them until Midnight when Eutychus fell out of the window. They were Jews, they reckoned time as they always had. Re-read this passage with the mindset that these are Jews reckoning Jews do.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 05:32:43 by Jaime »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8523
  • Manna: 389
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #7 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 04:52:10 »
The meeting in Acts 20:7 took place Saturday evening following the Sabbath that ended at sundown. Midnight on the first day of the week occurred on Saturday at Midnight forbthise Jews as always. If not Paul Preached about 30 hours in lieu of about 6 hours. 30 hours would have been totally unrealistic. As Jews they wouldn’t have traveled on the Sabbath but on the day following the Sabbath. To me this verse is a very poor proof of Sunday worship, though it is the main one used. From studies about the culture, the lights in the upper room (told to us for a reason) where they met was because of a post Sabbath candle light lighting ceremony called a Havdillah. THEN they met and broke bread and ate a meal and Paul spoke to them until Midnight when Eutychus fell out of the window. They were Jews, they reckoned time as they always had.
You need to look at that again. Later....RB

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #8 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 04:58:50 »
I have read and re-read this verse for years. As I said Red YOU should re-read it from the standpoint of them reckoning time as Jews which they certainly were. Just humor me for 3 minutes. I have always doubted Paul spoke for 18 to 30 hours. It was about 6 hours. “Upon the first day of the week” to them was our Saturday after sundown. The upoer room had burning candles in it because it was dark and because of the post Sabbath celebration just completed (on our Saturday at Sundown). They had gathered for the Sabbath anyway, so Paul began speaking to them as a gathered group in the candle lit upoer room. After a long sermon of 6 hours a young man fell asleep and tumbled out of the window.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 05:30:51 by Jaime »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #8 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 04:58:50 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #9 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 05:59:42 »
I agree with you, Jaime.  Paul began preaching on the first day of the week which began at sundown on what we call Saturday.  That would have been sometime around six or seven o'clock Saturday evening.  He preached until midnight Saturday.  He continued to speak with them until sun up Sunday morning (verse 11).

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #10 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 06:25:56 »
And he departed Sunday morning. This verse if anything is a support of Sunday morning departing. There may be other verses that support Sunday worship, but this one isn’t one of them.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 07:18:52 by Jaime »

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #11 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 07:45:32 »
 author=RB link=topic=107353.msg1055174269#msg1055174269 date=1605127498]
Quote
GOOD QUESTION, a question that I have answered already in one of those debates on the Sabbath. The Jewish sabbath started at sundown FRIDAY and went to sundown SATURDAY.

God's Day was created from sundown to sundown. "And the Evening and the Morning was the first day". It was the God of the Bible, not the Jews, who created the day.



 
Quote
[/i]Jesus arose from the dead AFTER MIDNIGHT starting the first day of the week which is our SUNDAY!


The Catholic Tradition teaches this. You have ZERO Biblical support for your preaching that Jesus rose in the middle of the night, after midnight. Changing the times as the Catholic did, and her daughters that followed her, including Calvin, was prophesied in the OT. There is nowhere in the entire Bible that the day God created was altered to start and end in the middle of the night. It's just another ancient religious tradition of man.


Quote
He was in the grave for THREE FULL DAYS and THREE FULL NIGHTS. He was crucified Wednesday and placed in the grave before the sun went down on the first day of his death. Wednesday to Thursday is ONE day....Thursday to Friday is TWO days....Friday to Saturday the Jewish Sabbath would be three full days sometime after midnight he came up out of the grave VICTORIOUS and we with him!
 

The Jews weekly Sabbath would have ended at sundown on Saturday night, and Mary would have went to the grave as soon as the sun set. Jesus was placed in the earth before sundown, before the High Sabbath of the First Day of Unleavened Bread, and was to rise 3 days and 3 nights later, just before sundown on Saturday night. In all accounts, HE was already risen before Mary got there. The teaching that Mary didn't leave her home until after midnight is just another Catholic doctrine promoted by "many" who come in Christ's Name.

Quote
THEREFORE, we as NT Christians meet together on the LORD'S DAY which is the first day of the week just as they did in the beginning. ChoirLoft is singing the songs of Judaism, we sing the songs of The LAMB that was slain, died but has risen to live as KING overall world without end. 

I don't think ChoirLoft is a Catholic, so it is no wonder that he would not follow or promote ancient Catholic Tradition.

The First meeting of the New Covenant Church was on a High Sabbath. A sabbath that you claim only Judaizers would follow. The preaching that God's Sabbaths began after midnight can be found no where in the bible, only in the religious philosophies of men.

Maybe ChoirLoft is just following Paul's instructions.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

After all the Lord's Christ is Lord of the Sabbath of the Bible.






 

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #12 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 08:33:12 »

God's Day was created from sundown to sundown. "And the Evening and the Morning was the first day". It was the God of the Bible, not the Jews, who created the day.
As usual you have inserted your own views into the text.  There is not a word about sundown to sundown. You can ask the question of whether the Jews or God established the day as sundown to sundown, but that verse doesn't answer it.  In fact many scholars think "ereb" and "boqer" are signifying disorder and order.  The entire creation is one of God brining order out of disorder.
Quote
The Catholic Tradition teaches this. You have ZERO Biblical support for your preaching that Jesus rose in the middle of the night, after midnight.
I didn't read RB saying anything about Jesus rising in the middle of the night.
Quote
The Jews weekly Sabbath would have ended at sundown on Saturday night, and Mary would have went to the grave as soon as the sun set.
Wrong again.
Mat 28:1  Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
Quote
The First meeting of the New Covenant Church was on a High Sabbath.
Given me the reference for that, please.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #13 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 09:34:17 »
I have read and re-read this verse for years. As I said Red YOU should re-read it from the standpoint of them reckoning time as Jews which they certainly were. Just humor me for 3 minutes. I have always doubted Paul spoke for 18 to 30 hours. It was about 6 hours. “Upon the first day of the week” to them was our Saturday after sundown. The upoer room had burning candles in it because it was dark and because of the post Sabbath celebration just completed (on our Saturday at Sundown). They had gathered for the Sabbath anyway, so Paul began speaking to them as a gathered group in the candle lit upoer room. After a long sermon of 6 hours a young man fell asleep and tumbled out of the window.
That was a Havdalah service, apparently a favorite of the early Messianic community.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #14 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 09:36:10 »
And he departed Sunday morning. This verse if anything is a support of Sunday morning departing. There may be other verses that support Sunday worship, but this one isn’t one of them.
Only if you take Sunday as starting at sundown Saturday Evening.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #15 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 09:41:57 »
I wouldn't but those Jews in Acts 20 I bet did. Just like their gathering on the first day of the week likely happened right after Sabbath at Sundown Saturday.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #16 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 10:03:52 »
That was a Havdalah service, apparently a favorite of the early Messianic community.

Is the Havdalah still a common practice among Messianics? Or among the orthodox Jews?

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #17 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 10:26:43 »
Is the Havdalah still a common practice among Messianics? Or among the orthodox Jews?
Orthodox and some Conservative Jews - YES.

Messianics - since traditional Jewish observation is all over the map, it is mixed on this one.  The more rabbinically observant, the more likely they practice Havdalah.

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #18 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 15:06:00 »
Quote
author=4WD link=topic=107353.msg1055174305#msg1055174305 date=1605191592]
As usual you have inserted your own views into the text.  There is not a word about sundown to sundown. You can ask the question of whether the Jews or God established the day as sundown to sundown, but that verse doesn't answer it.  In fact many scholars think "ereb" and "boqer" are signifying disorder and order.  The entire creation is one of God brining order out of disorder.

So then, in your religious philosophy, what came first; Order or Disorder? Are you preaching that God created Chaos first, and then created order?

Well, even a child knows the Evening came first. Not the morning. Many scholars preach God has created a Holy Lottery, that we are all born wicked. That Jesus was born on December 25th. You are free to place your trust in "many Scholars" if you like. But according to the Holy Scriptures, God's Day begins in the Evening.

Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,



Quote
I didn't read RB saying anything about Jesus rising in the middle of the night.

"Jesus arose from the dead AFTER MIDNIGHT starting the first day of the week which is our SUNDAY!"

"After Midnight" would qualify, in my view, as the middle of the night.


Quote
Wrong again.
Mat 28:1  Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.

The old day ends and the new day starts in the evening as the scriptures teach us. So then in the evening begins the new day. The first day of the week begins after the old day ends. So Sunday began when she left her house, after the Sabbath, in the Evening, as the new day dawns.

Evening=Hebrews 'ereb, from the Hebrew word "arab" = to grow dusky at sundown, be darkened, (toward) evening.

"ereb" = "Dusk", even (ing, tide) night.

Dusk = NOUN, synonyms: twilight · nightfall · sunset · sundown · evening · close of day · dark ·

I believe this is why Jesus was taken down before sunset, and the New Day begins to dawn at sunset. At least the Day created by the God of the Bible.


Quote
[/i][/b]Given me the reference for that, please.

Lev. 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.

19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.

20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.

21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.


Feast of Weeks, or Pentecost, is a Holy Day, a High Sabbath. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.

This Holy Day was a Shadow of the New Testament Church, the prophesy of the "First Fruits" of the Lord. Of course God's True people were gathered in Honor of the Christ on this most Holy of High Sabbaths.


Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13254
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #19 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 18:52:46 »
I guess I'll give my ::twocents:: and see if anybody cares.  Here goes...

What a dumb argument!  There isn't any need to make our own midrash on the 4th commandment, or even to pay any attention to the ones the Jews have been making for ~3500 years!  We have Jesus own commentary on the 4th commandment.  Let's go with that!

The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

If you're worried about observance, you've already missed the point!  The Sabbath was made to give us a rest.  Don't you understand that observance is the opposite of rest?

Who cares which day, what hour, what watch of the night?  Stop arguing rubbish.  God doesn't care because the commandment is not for Him.  It's for us.  So... take a break... one day a week... on a regular basis... ANY day is fine...

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #20 on: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 19:34:49 »
Yes Sabbath is a gift FOR man.

My argument was that Acts 20:7 is a poor support scripture for Sunday worship. If any day will do, God would have not have sanctified the sabbath, unless sanctify has another meaning. My whole point was to understand a oassage, one must understand the culture of the writers and the hearers of the story. I grew up in a chirch that used Acts 20:7 as THE oroof positive that Sunday is rhe day of worship. If there are such verses, that one isn’t in that category if one understands the cultural context.

God made his appointed times to be special, he shows up at his appointments for man’s sake not His.

I think of the Sabbath as rest AND honoring God and soaking up his essense. Not n striving to not do such and such.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 12, 2020 - 20:00:13 by Jaime »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #21 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 05:28:53 »
Who cares which day, what hour, what watch of the night?  Stop arguing rubbish.  God doesn't care because the commandment is not for Him.  It's for us.  So... take a break... one day a week... on a regular basis... ANY day is fine...
Except for the fact that God Himself set up those times and dates. For our sake.

We do not have the authority or power to change that.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #22 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 05:36:16 »
That’s right Dave reinforcing the Sabbath was made for man thing. If God makes an appointment to show up FOR man, shouldn’t it be kept? To me rationalizing another day as Sabbath would be similar to what Cain did with his sacrifice.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #23 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 05:56:55 »
So then, in your religious philosophy, what came first; Order or Disorder? Are you preaching that God created Chaos first, and then created order?
Of course chaos came first and of course chaos was the state of the universe in the beginning.  Every step in the creation process presented in Genesis One is God bringing order out of disorder.  Notice that it does not say that God created light; it says God "separated the light from the darkness" (Gen 1:4).

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #24 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 06:21:26 »
Of course chaos came first and of course chaos was the state of the universe in the beginning.  Every step in the creation process presented in Genesis One is God bringing order out of disorder.  Notice that it does not say that God created light; it says God "separated the light from the darkness" (Gen 1:4).
We are not given a lot of information on the pre-Genesis 1 state of the universe.  What we do know is God fills all and is in all; and that creation is NOT God.  In the "Digging Deeper" First Fruits of Zion commentary on Genesis 1, it was hypothesized that God had to withdraw Himself from an area to create the universe. If that is true, then the order of God's own being predated the chaos of Genesis 1.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #25 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 07:16:08 »
We are not given a lot of information on the pre-Genesis 1 state of the universe.
Uhhh Dave  --  it didn't exist.  That is what creation is:  In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.   heavens and earth  --  the sum total of all that is.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #26 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 07:32:15 »
Uhhh Dave  --  it didn't exist.  That is what creation is:  In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.   heavens and earth  --  the sum total of all that is.
Did GOD exist pre-Genesis 1? Of course He did. But what was that existence like??

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #27 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 07:44:40 »
Did GOD exist pre-Genesis 1? Of course He did. But what was that existence like??
It wasn't physical which is what the Genesis creation account is all about.

Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13254
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #28 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 09:40:48 »
If God makes an appointment to show up FOR man, shouldn’t it be kept?
That is EXACTLY what I mean by observance.  The purpose of the commandment is to give rest.  Observance is the opposite of resting, my friend.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #29 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 10:36:28 »
It wasn't physical which is what the Genesis creation account is all about.
In that context, what exactly is "physical?"

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11446
  • Manna: 312
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #30 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 10:38:36 »
In that context, what exactly is "physical?"
Not spirit or spiritual.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #31 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 10:50:17 »
WS, Just meeting God when he says he is showing up is not a burdensome observance. Standing on your head and stacking greased BBs is burdensome. The Israelites still walked through the divided Red Sea as God did ALL the work of delivering them. We receive the gift of God's grace, we don't earn any part of that grace. It's totally passive on our part. The Israelites deliverance was 100% God, though they obeyed him and passed through the Sea on dry land. The times I have met God on Sabbath have been amazingly restful and rewarding. The last thing on my mind was the opposite of rest. My wife and I are trying to change our Saturday routine to focus on God and just being quiet and listening to Him. We aren't checking boxes of observance rituals. That's the LAST thing that Sabbath is to me. Jesus said it is good to DO Good on the Sabbath. We plan to help a family in some way, replace  a water heater or whatever we can do, trim the trees of an elderly couple, (get their ox out of a ditch if you will) many things that are "doing good" on the Sabbath and honoring of God. Jesus was NOT about the letter of observance but the Spirit of Sabbath. He filled it full as he did the rest of the Law. If we can serve our fellow man and give of ourselves how better to honor God during one of his appointments.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 10:54:24 by Jaime »

Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13254
  • Manna: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #32 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 11:13:32 »
How you go about it is the thing.  The "services" around these parts definitely aren't about resting, though.

Offline Jaime

  • (Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 36953
  • Manna: 787
  • Gender: Male
  • I AM A DEPLORABLE
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #33 on: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 11:22:46 »
Well would it surprise you that very few in the religious world understood what Jesus was teaching REALLY? Sunday services in the past during the "Christian Sabbath" were never about rest, right? Sabbath is way more than a "service" or maybe less dry bones effort is a better way to say it. it's OK to do good on the Sabbath or get your donkey (or your neighbor's donkey) out of a ditch. David ate the Shew Bread and was "OK" because he was legitimately hungry. To me it goes back to the story of the good Samaritan. The priest and the Levite were strict adherents but who was their neighbor as Jesus asked? The unclean Samaritan who served his fellow man in trouble was doing the Father's will rather than following strict ridiculous guidelines.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 18, 2020 - 11:30:09 by Jaime »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15352
  • Manna: 191
  • Gender: Male
  • My grandson Arturus
Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #34 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 05:55:15 »
Not spirit or spiritual.
And in a world where what WE know as "physical" does not exist, what is the difference? Can you really make that distinction where none exists?