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If the Sabbath is to be a day of rest and folks go back and forth about Saturdays and Sundays, I'm going to play it safe and take it easy all weekend.

That's funny~

author=RB link=topic=107353.msg1055175126#msg1055175126 date=1607161837]
Well sir, I think it is your position that Jesus was at constant war with~if you need proof I have many scriptures from which I could prove it, but you are listening to the same voice mother Eve listened to, the same voice you are accusing others of listening to.

I simply posted Biblical truth and you don't believe it, not because it isn't true, but because it contradicts your own religious philosophy.

Gameliel was a great, popular theologian of Jesus and Paul's time. This is a Biblically sound statement, proven by both Scriptures, and known history. Saul, before becoming Paul, was an extra zealous student of his, abiding to his religious philosophy, much in the way many abide by the religious philosophies of Calvin and others today.

The result of Paul's tutelage of this man led to a man who belonged to a group John the Baptist called "Vipers" and that Jesus Himself called children of the devil.

These are true statements Red. You may not like them, they may sting you a little, but they are Biblically accurate. Now you promote the teaching of several, popular, in many cases famous, theologians of this world that I was born into. This is also a true statement that can not be denied.

But I don't Red. I have not listened to any of the lot of them. You can not find a single copy or paste, or a single quote from any author, other than the Holy Scriptures, followed by my understanding of those Words. So on it's face, your first statement is a false. A false statement whose foundation is malice, not intended to promote truth, but a statement intended to promote "tale bearing" because of a grudge held in your mind. Much in the same way the mainstream self sanctified white washed walls made up crap about Paul.

You may not agree with my understanding of scriptures, and a discussion would certainly be in order if you don't. I am glad to have such a discussion should you want one.

Lev. 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

I have already forgiven you Red, because I am guilty of reacting the same way when the Light of Christ exposes a darkness in my mind. Hopefully you will sorrow to repentance.

If you want to discuss this last sentence by Paul, let us do so, if not, keep barking~for neither you nor any man living today has ever kept perfectly the law of God, and on top of that, you have never learned how to use the law of God lawfully and what purpose it was given, and to WHOM Moses' many others laws, and percepts, were given and for the purpose they were given to Israel ONLY.

I do want to engage in an honest examination of Scriptures, it is the reason I am on this forum.

Phil. 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Indeed Paul was an upstanding member of the religions of the land of that time.

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. 4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

These are the father's John the Baptist's called "vipers" Red. These are the fathers Jesus called the "Children of the Devil".

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.


Listen to the last sentence of Paul in the Phil. 3 verse.


"Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

How was a person made "blameless" in the Law? Red, they purchased their own righteousness with the blood of animals they provided for their own sins. The great theologians of the time, Levite Priests, had turned out of the way and caused many to stumble in the Law.

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

Paul was following the teaching of Gameliel, according to his own words, a perfect Pharisee, following the traditions of his fathers perfectly.

Gal. 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Following the leadership of the theologians you promote, you have been convinced that the "Fathers" lived in the tradition of obedience to God's Law.

Yet, if the Holy Scriptures are our guide, this doctrine is exposes as untrue because the Bible is glaringly clear, the "fathers" had a law, it just wasn't the Law of God.

So Paul was not repentant, nor did he confess his sins. Rather, he followed a system corrupted by the shepherds God placed over them, where their righteousness (Atonement) was achieved by following a corrupted version of bringing a "sin offering" to the Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "Works" according to the Law.

But now, after that Paul's eyes were opened, he sees his righteousness/atonement was not provided by him bringing a goat to the Levite Priest, according to the Law, but by obedience to God with all his heart, and Faith in the Blood (Life) of the Lamb shed from the foundation of the world. As his brother Peter also acknowledges.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

And be found by HIM as other members of the body of Christ.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The Galatians received the Spirit of Forgiveness, not because they followed the "works" taught by the great theologians of that time as Law, they received the Spirit because they, as Paul teaches; "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

It is very clear that your confidence of eternal life is in your flesh~OR, your ability to hear, and do~We who are of the spiritual circumcision, who worships God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, have NO confidence in the flesh for WHICH THE LAW WAS GIVEN TO BE OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO TEACH US THIS VERY IMPORTANT TRUTH.

Again, because your understanding comes from "other voices" and not the holy scriptures, you are failing to account for the topic of Galatians 3. How did the Galatians receive the Spirit of Truth? Because they brought a sin offering to the Levite Priest according to the Law and were forgiven? Or did they actually confess their sins in repentance and turn to God with all their heart. So why then, did the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works" exist? It was "ADDED", 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Laws and commandments, until the true Lamb of God should come. It was to "lead them to the true source of their atonement", the Christ Himself. So now that the "SEED" has come, and has become the one true High Priest, they no longer need the Levite Priest, nor the sacrificial "works of the law" for atonement.

We now live by Faith that if we turn to and Love the Lord our God with all our hearts, if we walk in His Goodness and endure temptation to sin "till the end", HE is Faithful to provide for us the promises given to our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Rom. 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, (God's Law is spiritual) they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Suffer what you may say?

Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Red, how I wish you could just humble yourself to God's Word enough to trust it over the religious philosophies of the land. And it is your choice, it's just that you have been convinced you have no choice. How sad.

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Gamaliel was also a very respected theologian which taught the greatest Jewish religious minds of Paul's time.

The end result of his great theology was the promotion of a religion that the Great Levite, John the Baptist himself, called Vipers, and Jeshua Himself called Gamaliel's students, children of the devil.

Did our Lord call the Pharasaic students of Gamaliel (House of Hillel) children of the devil, or the Pharasaic students of the House of Shammai?

If you pay attention to the differences in what those 2 schools taught, you will see our Lord had problems mostly with the Shammai students.

Did our Lord call the Pharasaic students of Gamaliel (House of Hillel) children of the devil, or the Pharasaic students of the House of Shammai?

If you pay attention to the differences in what those 2 schools taught, you will see our Lord had problems mostly with the Shammai students.

Yikes.  If you're trying to figure out which form of Judaism is best, I recommend the one Jesus taught.

That isn't the Pharisee school of either Hillel OR Shammai.  It's separate from both.

Did our Lord call the Pharasaic students of Gamaliel (House of Hillel) children of the devil, or the Pharasaic students of the House of Shammai?

If you pay attention to the differences in what those 2 schools taught, you will see our Lord had problems mostly with the Shammai students.

Matt. 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Matt. 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I don't believe the Lord's Christ judged religious men who transgressed God's commandments by their own religious traditions based on the family their teachers came from.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.


You asked the question "Did our Lord call the Pharasaic students of Gamaliel (House of Hillel) children of the devil, or the Pharasaic students of the House of Shammai?"


The Scriptures tell us "Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem", and again; "3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,"

It seems clear that the Lord's Christ didn't distinguish between "houses" at all. Religious men do, you have in your statement, but the Lord's Christ did not. So much so that to find evidence of your religious philosophy regarding this matter, I must close the Bible all together and search elsewhere.

Had the Jews simply accepted what was written, like Zacharias and John the Baptist, and Simeon and had not set about to create their own religion which you and I both know they did, they would not have become children of the devil.

The Lord's Christ did not make the same separation you did here Dave W.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

A student from the house of House of Hillel that transgresses God's Commandments by their own tradition is no different than a student from the House of Shammai that transgresses the commandments of God by their own traditions.

The ethical teachings and halicha of our Lord come in somewhere between the 2, usually somewhat closer to Hillel than Shammai.

I strongly disagree.

Jesus teachings vary significantly from any flavor of Pharisee-ism.

The first and most glaring difference is that Jesus ministry was focused on the northern tribes, Galilee, the Decapolis, Perea... almost to the exclusion of the Jews to the south, who He appears to have largely avoided during most of His ministry.

Both agree to reforming Judaism by de-prioritizing (read: abolishing) the temple but... The center of Pharisee Judaism became the synagogue, and thus Pharisee-ism is essentially about education and personal growth through observance.  Jesus ministry instead put authority into the hands of a small number of regionalized leaders (apostles), with a focus on serving the needs of the community, particularly the infirm and the poor.

While both baptize proselytes, the formulations are quite different.  Enough so that the Pharisees were alarmed that Jesus was baptizing Jews OUT of Abraham.

As touches the Law, Jesus' yoke on the Law is nearly constructionist, aiming to understand/satisfy the intent of commandments.  This is entirely at logger-heads with everything Pharisaical, which loved nothing more than to debate the letter of the Law, and to understand Law by rehearsing it experientially.

I could probably go on for a while, but this seems like a sufficient start.

Jarrod