Author Topic: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath  (Read 2921 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #35 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 06:20:27 »
And in a world where what WE know as "physical" does not exist, what is the difference? Can you really make that distinction where none exists?
The distinction is made by definition.  In a spiritual realm where physical does not exist, then nothing physical exists there.  But perhaps that doesn't make any sense at all with your "block logic".  rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 06:24:58 by 4WD »

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #35 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 06:20:27 »

Offline GB

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #36 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 09:33:59 »
Of course chaos came first and of course chaos was the state of the universe in the beginning.  Every step in the creation process presented in Genesis One is God bringing order out of disorder.  Notice that it does not say that God created light; it says God "separated the light from the darkness" (Gen 1:4).

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In the beginning of what 4WD? God has no beginning and no end, at least the God of the Bible doesn't. Are you preaching that God lived in Chaos before this "beginning"?

I know you won't consider, but I'll bring it up anyway. What if the beginning spoken of in genesis, is the beginning of "time" itself. Which begins in darkness, the comes the Light. Just as all life in the realm of time begins in darkness, just as the Day created by God begins in darkness. Just as ignorance comes first, then wisdom, just as sin comes first, then repentance, just as mortality comes first, then immortality. Just as you fall first, then learn to walk, just as you jabber first, then learn to talk. Just as the first day of the week is for work, the last day for rest, just as Fleshy comes first, then Spiritual.

Where is the Chaos?














Offline 4WD

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #37 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 09:42:41 »
What if the beginning spoken of in genesis, is the beginning of "time" itself.
Time is a physical quantity which began as did the whole rest of the physical universe when God created it. 

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #37 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 09:42:41 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #38 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 09:48:42 »
Where is the Chaos?
Gen 1:2  The earth was without form and void... Without form and void is a pretty chaotic condition.  And that agrees quite well with the scientific description of the nearly infinite temperature and density of the pure energy of the very beginning in the big bang theory.

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #38 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 09:48:42 »
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Offline GB

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #39 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 10:19:11 »
Well would it surprise you that very few in the religious world understood what Jesus was teaching REALLY? Sunday services in the past during the "Christian Sabbath" were never about rest, right? Sabbath is way more than a "service" or maybe less dry bones effort is a better way to say it. it's OK to do good on the Sabbath or get your donkey (or your neighbor's donkey) out of a ditch. David ate the Shew Bread and was "OK" because he was legitimately hungry. To me it goes back to the story of the good Samaritan. The priest and the Levite were strict adherents but who was their neighbor as Jesus asked? The unclean Samaritan who served his fellow man in trouble was doing the Father's will rather than following strict ridiculous guidelines.

I know this is beating a dead horse, and that you just can't see the point, but where is your evidence that the Levites were strict adherers to  "God's "ridiculous" guidelines"? I just don't understand why you guys keep saying this, when the Holy Scriptures teach the exact opposite.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Ez. 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God's ridiculous guidelines)

I know WE have had this conversation before, but when religious men say that the Levites were guilty because they "obeyed God to much", or followed the "Letter of the Law", or were guilty of adhering too "strictly to God's ridiculous guidelines", it drives me crazy because it just doesn't reflect what the Holy Scriptures, including the Christ's own Word's, says about them.

On the other hand, there are scriptures which do speak to men who did followed God's ridiculous guidelines.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The Scriptural contrast between this believer, who strictly followed God's ridiculous guidelines,  and the Levites, who broke God's ridiculous guidelines, is so obvious to me, yet completely ignored and missed by so many.

I truly wish you could step back from the popular religious doctrines and traditions of this land regarding the problem with the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time, and take an intellectually honest examination of your statement "The unclean Samaritan who served his fellow man in trouble was doing the Father's will rather than following strict ridiculous guidelines".

The practice of helping their fellow man is "commanded" in God's ridiculous guidelines.

Lev. 19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

The reason why God spoke to Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men, etc., and not the Pharisees, is because they honored God by strictly following these ridiculous guidelines, while the Levites, the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus' time did not.

I think this is an important truth to consider.




 




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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #39 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 10:19:11 »



Online Jaime

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #40 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 10:39:00 »
GB, my insinuation was that they THINK they are strict adherents. I agree not the same thing as BEING strict adherents. They were adherent legends in their own minds, which conflicted with Jesus and his filling full the Law which the Jewish leadership had emptied with their exclusion of the Letter of the Law that Jesus included. to Empty = abolish, to fulfill = proper interpretation or fill full that which had been emptied.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 13:25:39 by Jaime »

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #40 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 10:39:00 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #41 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 11:26:41 »
Quote
The unclean Samaritan who served his fellow man in trouble was doing the Father's will rather than following strict ridiculous guidelines.
I know this is beating a dead horse, and that you just can't see the point, but where is your evidence that the Levites were strict adherers to  "God's "ridiculous" guidelines"? I just don't understand why you guys keep saying this, when the Holy Scriptures teach the exact opposite.
Jaime never said the "ridiculous guidelines" were from God.

Offline GB

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #42 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 11:29:30 »
Gen 1:2  The earth was without form and void... Without form and void is a pretty chaotic condition.  And that agrees quite well with the scientific description of the nearly infinite temperature and density of the pure energy of the very beginning in the big bang theory.

That doesn't really answer the question I posed. But you are right about the consensus of this worlds brightest and smartest men.

I just don't think God lived in darkness and Chaos before HE created time. His world before time would not be darkness, in my view, since He is the Light. How can a rock in space with no life be "chaotic"? Chaotic for who? God? Dark, yes. Void, yes. What good or purpose would a rock with no life in space be to God?

I think you are missing the point of my post, and how it relates to the written Character of God and the Parable of Gen. 1.

If I believe Paul;

1 cor. 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Does God care about a big rock in space with no life? Or did HE write these things for our sakes? For our sakes no doubt it is written.

In my beginning, there was no Light, No purpose, no direction, only darkness. Then God said, "Let there be Light", and I was called into this glorious Light as the creator deemed.

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.


I think this has more to do with Gen. 1, than the discussion of chaos and empty rocks floating in space.





Offline GB

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #43 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 11:54:15 »
I know this is beating a dead horse, and that you just can't see the point, but where is your evidence that the Levites were strict adherers to  "God's "ridiculous" guidelines"? I just don't understand why you guys keep saying this, when the Holy Scriptures teach the exact opposite.
Jaime never said the "ridiculous guidelines" were from God.

"The priest and the Levite were strict adherents but who was their neighbor as Jesus asked".

I think you are deflecting from the point of the post I made. The Levite was supposed to be "Strict adherents" but were not. As the Lord's Christ said "they say, but do not do". This thread is talking about the 4th Commandment of God, not Islam.

Had they been "strict adherents" like Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, they would have known Jesus when HE came, as they did.

As it is written;

2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (Lawlessness)

If Jaime was speaking about "strict adherence" to some other god's guidelines, he would have said so. Or should have.




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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #43 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 11:54:15 »

Online Jaime

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #44 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 13:21:59 »
GB, please read MY response #40. I clarified. Them thinking they were strict adherents is not the same as BEING strict adherents. The entire Jewish culture leading up to the first century thought they were strict adherents to God's Law.  As we all see in the NT, Jesus corrected them. Give it a rest. My second clarification is the final one.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 13:57:14 by Jaime »

Offline DaveW

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #45 on: Thu Nov 19, 2020 - 13:35:05 »
The distinction is made by definition.  In a spiritual realm where physical does not exist, then nothing physical exists there.  But perhaps that doesn't make any sense at all with your "block logic".
I will ignore the fact you are trying to make a dig at the logic system the writers of the bible used. 

But in this sense you are trying to superimpose one set of standards on something else entirely. You are trying to apply our time/space creation distinction between spiritual and physical to an existence where time/space were not created.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #46 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 06:07:52 »
I will ignore the fact you are trying to make a dig at the logic system the writers of the bible used.
No, I am making a dig at your logic system. You make ludicrous statements and then try to justify it on some system you insist was used by the writers of the Bible.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #47 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 06:22:46 »
I just don't think God lived in darkness and Chaos before HE created time.
God exists quite apart from anything physical, whether it be light or darkness or time or space or.......  That God is light has nothing to do with physical light.

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #48 on: Fri Nov 20, 2020 - 06:44:05 »
I just don't think God lived in darkness and Chaos before HE created time. His world before time would not be darkness, in my view, since He is the Light. How can a rock in space with no life be "chaotic"? Chaotic for who? God? Dark, yes. Void, yes. What good or purpose would a rock with no life in space be to God?
Of course that would be correct.

If the Jewish commentators are correct; and God being perfection and order had to withdraw Himself from some part in order to make Time/Space creation; then chaos would be in that place.  If you remove perfection and order, you are left with chaos.

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #49 on: Fri Nov 27, 2020 - 09:05:31 »
I guess I'll give my ::twocents:: and see if anybody cares.  Here goes...

What a dumb argument!  There isn't any need to make our own midrash on the 4th commandment, or even to pay any attention to the ones the Jews have been making for ~3500 years!  We have Jesus own commentary on the 4th commandment.  Let's go with that!

The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

If you're worried about observance, you've already missed the point!  The Sabbath was made to give us a rest.  Don't you understand that observance is the opposite of rest?

Who cares which day, what hour, what watch of the night?  Stop arguing rubbish.  God doesn't care because the commandment is not for Him.  It's for us.  So... take a break... one day a week... on a regular basis... ANY day is fine...

I don't know about that. It sounds a little to much like God doesn't care which tree you eat from, He made them all for you, just pick any tree including this one He told you not to eat from. He doesn't care. You don't really have to do what He says, He's just trying to hold you back from something. Here, go ahead and eat from this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it tastes good. I ate it, and I'm not dead. If God makes something for you, then it doesn't matter if you listen to how He tells you to use or observe it. He doesn't care if you actually listen to Him. Something about that argument just doesn't sit right with me.

Maybe it is what that guy Jesus said about the word of God, to the exact same guy who said go ahead and eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that makes me question the wisdom of your advice.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Or maybe it was when Jesus said -

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

After which He also said -

Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.  47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

No, but it does matter what God has told us to do, and not to do. Our Lord and Savior was and is God. We will either follow the Lamb of God wherever He goes, or we will end up following someone else. If we will pick up our crosses and follow the words and teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ above all other words and teachings, He will bring us into HIs everlasting kingdom.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?




Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #50 on: Fri Nov 27, 2020 - 16:01:36 »
Bright colors!  Loud noises!
I do not reject the Law.  I embrace it - within the paradigm of how Jesus interpreted it.

And I know where you stand.  You are married to the letter and not the spirit, rejecting Jesus yoke on the Law.

Good day to you, sir!  Good day, I said!


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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #51 on: Fri Nov 27, 2020 - 21:30:35 »
I do not reject the Law.  I embrace it - within the paradigm of how Jesus interpreted it.

And I know where you stand.  You are married to the letter and not the spirit, rejecting Jesus yoke on the Law.

Good day to you, sir!  Good day, I said!

And to you to sir. I am not married to the law, the law condemns me. I seek to be hidden in Christ Jesus, and transformed from a law breaker to a law keeper as my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was the latter. I may be wrong, but I do not believe you would think such of me for wanting to obey any of the other ten commandment of God, would you? Would I be married to the law for not wanting to worship other gods, for not wanting to bow down before images, for not wanting to take the Lord's name in vain, for wanting to honor my father and mother, for not wanting to kill, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, or covet my neighbors stuff? If not, why would wanting to keep the fourth commandment alone constitute being married to the law? If so, which commandments one would desire to keep constitute being married to the law? You are of course free to believe what you wish, and to believe whatever you wish about me. Speaking it out loud though, or writing it for all to see, could possibly constitute bearing false witness, only if you happen to be wrong of course. Praise God, that He will be the final judge of all such matters. We are so deficient in that area.

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #52 on: Sat Nov 28, 2020 - 00:51:24 »
Yes very long. And may require a great deal of editing. But too late to do so.

While I may not be fully persuaded in my own mind whether the 4th commandment is in force today for those who are ‘under’ (have entered into) the new covenant; and that I [we] are 'required' to "keep" it as was required under the previous covenant Israel entered into with the LORD God at Mt. Sinai (as ridiculous as that may sound to some).

Yet, I suffer from no doubt whatsoever that the sabbath is no other day of the week than the 7th day. Neither the 2nd day of the week, nor the 3rd day of the week, nor the 4th, nor the 5th, or 6th, nor the 1st day of the week is ever or anywhere in scripture called or referred to as “the sabbath of the Lord” (the day that God rested upon), nor called God’s “holy sabbath (“thy [God’s] holy sabbath)...his “holy day”...”the rest of thy [God’s] holy sabbath”.

As it is written:
     “But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [exd.20.10; see also: lev.23.3; deu.5.14]
   
    “And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.” [exd.16.23; see also: neh.9.14]
   
    “Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.” [exd.35.2; see also: neh.10.31; isa.58.13]
 
Now, there are passages where the first day and the eight day are designated as “holy convocations” at certain times of the year in Israel. Where it is required to rest therein.

But those holy convocations are NOT referring to the seventh (7th) day weekly sabbath, which weekly sabbath’s rest commences after sunset of the sixth day (loosely speaking, our Friday evening).

As for “the Lord’s Day” in Revelations 1:10. While it is commonly held (deeply ingrained in many Westernized religious minds) that this is referring to the first day – or Sunday. Where in the holy scriptures can anyone produce even one passage that definitively (in plain language) declares this to be the case? No where. I know this to be so.

But I am certainly willing to hear anyone out who may think otherwise. You'll just have to be ready and able to "produce your cause" from plain and clear passages. Which naturally excludes attempts to 'spiritualize' less clear (more ambiguous) passages. Reading into passages that speak of the ‘first day’ or ‘eight day’ as ‘holy convocations’ and/or rest (sabbath days) will not do. 

No matter how strongly held and ubiquitous this notion is among so very many. Nevertheless, claiming that the first day of the week is “the Lord’s Day” and by implication, the alleged ‘New Testament Christian Sabbath’ must be substantiated. If one cannot definitively prove such claims. Then all such claims rise no higher than a mere opinion or ‘tradition’.

And no matter how ancient a cult may be, it is still a cult. And no cult or alleged ‘Mother Church’ as ancient as it may be, has been granted by God the right or authority to ‘transfer’ “the solemnity” of the true (7th day) Sabbath, “from Saturday to Sunday” despite many (even ancient) claims to the contrary.

So lacking any solid basis in (scriptural) fact, I’ve long since discarded this idea that I was taught regarding the first day. Just as I have had to amputate from my belief system other misconceptions and unsound doctrines I had been taught were ‘biblical’ when I was a young believer (“simple”, “a babe”, “yet carnal”, “unskillful in the word of righteousness”).

I have (somewhere) a book called:
‘From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity’ by Samuele Bacchiocche.

In it S. Bacchiocche lays out a very thorough examination on the subject of the sabbath day and powerful refutations regarding the claims made by Catholic’s and Protestant’s alike that the 1st Day (Sunday; the ‘Day of the Sun’) is ‘now’ the ‘new Christian sabbath’; and/or ‘rest day’; and/or day ‘established in the New Testament’ to assemble and worship together (the alleged fulfillment of the psalmist: “This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it” – the so-called ‘Lord’s Day’).


Here are a few quotes I found on a website that highlights the fact that the RCC considers ("thinks") itself to possess authority to "change times and laws" [dan.7.25].


Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (Ayers Publishing, 1978): 108:
“But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”


The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957): 50:
   Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
   A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
   Q. Why Do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
   A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.


Chancellor Albert Smith for Cardinal of Baltimore Archdiocese, letter dated February 10, 1920:
“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath day by God is Saturday. In keeping the Sunday, they are following a law of the Catholic Church.”


Stephen Keenan, Catholic—Doctrinal Catechism 3rd Edition: 174:
“Question: Have you any other way of proving the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her, she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the 1st day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the 7th day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”


Our Sunday Visitor (February 5, 1950):
“Practically everything Protestants regard as essential or important they have received from the Catholic Church... The Protestant mind does not seem to realize that in accepting the Bible and observing the Sunday, in keeping Christmas and Easter, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.”


Louis Gaston Segur, Plain Talk about the Protestantism of To-Day (London: Thomas Richardson and Son, 1874): 213:
“Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is a homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) Church.”


The catholic Mirror (September 23, 1893):
“The Catholic Church, for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday...”

“The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who can find no warrant in its pages for the change of day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation, ‘Seventh-day Adventists."


Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSR, Kansas City, MO:
“It was the holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday, the 1st day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodicea, AD 364, anathematized those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema.”


Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSR, lecture at Hartford, KS, Feb 18, 1884:
“I have repeatedly offered $1000 to any one who can furnish any proof from the Bible that Sunday is the day we are bound to keep...The Bible says, “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy,” but the Catholic Church says, “No, keep the first day of the week,” and the whole world bows in obedience.”


Cardinal John Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (London: Basil Montague Pickering, 1878): 373:
“The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons…are all of pagan origin and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.”


Catholic Record (September 1, 1923):
“The [catholic] Church is above the Bible, and this transference of the Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.”

American Catholic Quarterly Review (January 1883):
“Sunday...is purely a creation of the Catholic Church.”

These quotes need to be considered in a serious way as I see it. By those who hold to the notion that their belief regarding "the first day of the week" is the 'new Christian sabbath' or that the meaning of "the Lord's Day" is one that is actually taught in scripture. Neither is taught in scripture.


Now to address the most well-worn section of the New testament cited as proof-positive that the "first day of the week is" a holy day...the day to gather together ('go to Church', as so many refer to it)

Act 20:6 "And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days."

Act 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

The "first day of the week” – commencing just after the seventh day has ended at the setting of the sun, as the sun sets below the horizon.

Say, just for ease sake, lets say that the sun sets right at 6:00pm, so that at 6:00:01pm the next day commences and does not finish until 6:00:00pm the following evening.

So the disciples decided to assemble together - as it says - to “break bread”.

Question: Are you prone to assume automatically (having been so taught) that this was a habitual common occurrence, that these believers gathered together “upon” EACH and EVERY “first day of the week out of observance of some command to do so on the first day (as opposed to the seventh day)?
Or could it be - is it possible that they had a particularly special, practical and good reason to gather together on this particular first day?

Well, the text certainly does not elaborate, let alone make any declarative statements that states or even suggests that this was an ongoing regular (habitual) occurrence. It merely states that “the disciples came together to break bread” “upon the first day of the week”. So for me, I have to examine the contextual setting that is laid out here in this narrative account. In order to determine what is and also what is not being communicated in this portion of Luke’s treatise.

One thing it DOES NOT say is this: “As was the custom of the disciples...”, or “As it were their custom, the disciples gathered together…”; or “As it was the custom or tradition of the Apostles…; or “According to the commandment of the Lord and his apostles, upon the first day of the week the disciples gathered together to break bread...”

Apart from being able to actually produce scriptural evidence that leaves no room for doubt, but unequivocally proves and affirms the claims of those who insist that:
(1) the command to “keep” “the seventh day of the week” (Friday night thru Saturday) has been done away with; and

(2) “the first day of the week” (Saturday night thru Sunday...or just the day time period of Sunday) has how been designated by the Lord to be observed as a holy day, God’s ‘new’ holy day, the ‘New Sabbath’ and “the Lord’s Day”.

I have no other reasonable or wise choice than to reject the claims of those that teach ‘Sunday’ is the day the Lord NOW requires to be worshiped on and his people are to gather together on. I have to judge these unsubstantiated claims to be little more than the traditions of men and not that of the Apostles or God - not sound doctrine.


Act 20:8 "And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together."

Makes sense to me. When it gets dark, it is advisable to illuminate whatever areas or room(s) is (are) being employed to meet together in – if being able to see is something of interest or importance to you that is.

This point is of no small consequence: “there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.”
Why? Because they were meeting together during what they knew to be the beginning portion of the first day - the dark portion of the first day - at NIGHT, what we call ‘Saturday night. That’s how all days begin when you begin the days at sunset of each day.

Two things: The Sabbath had ended, and now the 1st day has begun.

In my way of thinking. If I am a Jewish believer and I am gathering together with other believers that are either gentile proselytes to Judaism or gentiles converted to this ‘new’ Jewish sect of Judaism out of some pagan religion. I am pretty sure that I have just finished ‘keeping’ the Sabbath – my rest day. And if I am correct here, I would say that all these other converts to Judaism, and now converted but again, but now to this new sect of Judaism: the Way (or Christianity); that we ONE and ALL were resting and worshiping together earlier during the Sabbath (from sunset of the previous day, up and until sunset of the just moments before perhaps).

But NOW, having a very special visitor – Paul the apostle himself. Who after having visited for seven days with the disciples here in, is now prepared to continue on his journey. So, wouldn’t you want to make the most of his presence and glean as much insights from him as you could? Certainly. So how so?
Simple, you extend your 'gathering together' with Paul, before he has to leave?

This takes you then from the day portion of the 7th day (when you gathered together with Paul and his companions during the Sabbath) and extends it into the next day – the dark portion of what now is the 1st day of the week (not the Sabbath, but the first day of the six day work week).

I see that their actual ‘custom’ was to ‘keep the (7th day) sabbath’ as it definitely was still being observed (and was so for a great many years afterwards). And if there were any special situations ,as was the case here with Paul’s presence. Then they naturally would have extended the assembling of themselves together into the first day (the night portion of course, as it occurred first).

There is no injunction, or command given or alluded to herein to ‘keep holy’ the first (1st) day of the week. But come to this passage with a predetermined presumption of that notion. Well, you can hardly avoid reading into this text what you want it to say (this is so regarding the other alleged ‘proof-text’ passages that adherents to this error routinely “wrest” to fit their deeply ingrained erroneous notions about the first day. 

Act 20:9 "And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead."

So, Paul had been preaching already from sunset or thereabouts “unto midnight”. Too much for this young man to take in. So he falls out the window and dies.

Act 20:10 "And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him."
Act 20:12 "And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.
But Paul, still endowed with special healing powers, brings Eutychus back to life."

Act 20:11 "When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed."

After reviving the young man. Paul pauses his speech to “break bread” (midnight meal), then resumes his discourse and continues to preach “even till the break of day”. I have NEVER attended ANY meeting where this ever occurred.

So to those who are determined in insisting that this portion of scripture is the blueprint as to the DAY and MANNER in which the ‘Church’ is to conduct itself in our gathering together. Then hear and take heed to what this scripture says. But I am not aware of any group that esteems itself to be a ‘biblical Church’ that follows the pattern that is presented in Acts 20:7-14. 

If Acts 20:7-14 is the pattern, then why do we not see any so-called ‘biblical Churches’ holding their ‘Church services’ on Saturday night, rather than Sunday mornings and Sunday evenings? And not just from one to three or so hours of a ‘service’ (the typical time frame of 9:30am to 12:45pm). But rather for six to twelve hours of ‘service’ – and that from sunset of the evening before, straight through to sunrise (from say, 6:01pm Saturday -to- around 6:00am Sunday morning)?

You don’t see this because no one is going to do this. Even if they would still insist that Acts 20 is the blueprint the ‘Church’ is to follow.

But not to worry. Acts 20:7-14 is not any alleged blueprint assemblies are to follow. Just as meeting from sunset to sunrise (rather than during the day portion of the day) is not a requirement of the Lord; nor is “breaking bread” at midnight (or close thereof); nor is the use of primitive lamps required; nor buildings that contain upper rooms. Neither is gathering on the first day of the week a requirement, a command, an ordinance or “decrees for to keep” [Acts 16:4].
 
Act 20:13 "And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot."
Act 20:14 "And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in, and came to Mitylene."


Now notice that Paul after he had preached “until the break of day”, he “departed”.
What?
Apply this to today:

By the time you wake up, cleaned yourself, dressed, ate breakfast gathered your things together, hopped into the car, drove to ‘church’, entered the hall and sat down waiting for the ‘service to start. Paul had already completed a 12 hour marathon of preaching, had left the building before the Sun’s first rays shone on the pathway before him. And after a four or five hour walk, he most likely already reached his destination – on foot – some twelve to fifteen miles away. All before your typical Sunday School has finished.

In that case. Paul was a very bad example to follow as a faithful ‘Sunday Church goer’. Not only has he failed to show up for Church. He’s joined up with his companions for a ‘cruise’.
   

Whether the 7th day Sabbath is enjoined upon the believer to ‘keep’ under the new covenant or not, I am not fully persuaded. But I know that the 7th day IS THE SABBATH. That it has NOT been obliterated; let alone changed or transferred to the 1st day.

I also know given the absence of any direct, plain and/or clear language in scripture that says otherwise; it is evident that neither the Apostles, nor the Lord himself has given any instructions, commandments, injunctions, or requirements to ‘keep’ the 1st day of the week holy as so many claim they have.

The 1st day of the week is NOT, was NOT ordained by God to ‘gather together’ on it. Neither am I aware of any actual proof that the 1st day of the week is as many emphatically claim: The Lord’s Day. John in the Revelation does not define what he meant by the Lord’s Day, when he said: “I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet…”

As far as I can tell, the only Day that can even closely be construed to be the Lord’s Day, IS the 7th day Sabbath day: “If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:” [isa.58.13]

But by the same token, to date, I see nothing forbidding meeting together on the 1st day either.
I see that the early Hebrew ‘Ekklesia’ did not forsake their keeping or resting on the Sabbath as they previously had done as well as their forefather’s had done in times past. And as Acts 20 indicates, who knows, perhaps on special occasions meetings ran long. So, people continued to gather together AFTER the Sabbath had ended and the 1st day began. Makes sense to me.

It is clear that Paul (Apollus and others) as was their custom, met together with others in this or that city on the Sabbath day, in the Synagogues. I do not ascribe to the notion that Paul ONLY did so in his efforts to win some to Christ among the Jews. That he ONLY went to the synagogues on the Sabbath day, to engage with his fellow countrymen and nation (because that was both the place and the time that he would have opportunity to engage with the people of his nation). 

That is somewhat I see in all this discussion about seventh day (the sabbath) vs the first day.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 28, 2020 - 01:47:11 by p.progress »

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #53 on: Sat Nov 28, 2020 - 12:19:16 »
Yes very long. And may require a great deal of editing. But too late to do so.

While I may not be fully persuaded in my own mind whether the 4th commandment is in force today for those who are ‘under’ (have entered into) the new covenant; and that I [we] are 'required' to "keep" it as was required under the previous covenant Israel entered into with the LORD God at Mt. Sinai (as ridiculous as that may sound to some).

Yet, I suffer from no doubt whatsoever that the sabbath is no other day of the week than the 7th day. Neither the 2nd day of the week, nor the 3rd day of the week, nor the 4th, nor the 5th, or 6th, nor the 1st day of the week is ever or anywhere in scripture called or referred to as “the sabbath of the Lord” (the day that God rested upon), nor called God’s “holy sabbath (“thy [God’s] holy sabbath)...his “holy day”...”the rest of thy [God’s] holy sabbath”.

As it is written:
     “But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [exd.20.10; see also: lev.23.3; deu.5.14]
   
    “And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.” [exd.16.23; see also: neh.9.14]
   
    “Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.” [exd.35.2; see also: neh.10.31; isa.58.13]
 
Now, there are passages where the first day and the eight day are designated as “holy convocations” at certain times of the year in Israel. Where it is required to rest therein.

But those holy convocations are NOT referring to the seventh (7th) day weekly sabbath, which weekly sabbath’s rest commences after sunset of the sixth day (loosely speaking, our Friday evening).

As for “the Lord’s Day” in Revelations 1:10. While it is commonly held (deeply ingrained in many Westernized religious minds) that this is referring to the first day – or Sunday. Where in the holy scriptures can anyone produce even one passage that definitively (in plain language) declares this to be the case? No where. I know this to be so.

But I am certainly willing to hear anyone out who may think otherwise. You'll just have to be ready and able to "produce your cause" from plain and clear passages. Which naturally excludes attempts to 'spiritualize' less clear (more ambiguous) passages. Reading into passages that speak of the ‘first day’ or ‘eight day’ as ‘holy convocations’ and/or rest (sabbath days) will not do. 

No matter how strongly held and ubiquitous this notion is among so very many. Nevertheless, claiming that the first day of the week is “the Lord’s Day” and by implication, the alleged ‘New Testament Christian Sabbath’ must be substantiated. If one cannot definitively prove such claims. Then all such claims rise no higher than a mere opinion or ‘tradition’.

And no matter how ancient a cult may be, it is still a cult. And no cult or alleged ‘Mother Church’ as ancient as it may be, has been granted by God the right or authority to ‘transfer’ “the solemnity” of the true (7th day) Sabbath, “from Saturday to Sunday” despite many (even ancient) claims to the contrary.

So lacking any solid basis in (scriptural) fact, I’ve long since discarded this idea that I was taught regarding the first day. Just as I have had to amputate from my belief system other misconceptions and unsound doctrines I had been taught were ‘biblical’ when I was a young believer (“simple”, “a babe”, “yet carnal”, “unskillful in the word of righteousness”).

I have (somewhere) a book called:
‘From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity’ by Samuele Bacchiocche.

In it S. Bacchiocche lays out a very thorough examination on the subject of the sabbath day and powerful refutations regarding the claims made by Catholic’s and Protestant’s alike that the 1st Day (Sunday; the ‘Day of the Sun’) is ‘now’ the ‘new Christian sabbath’; and/or ‘rest day’; and/or day ‘established in the New Testament’ to assemble and worship together (the alleged fulfillment of the psalmist: “This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it” – the so-called ‘Lord’s Day’).


Here are a few quotes I found on a website that highlights the fact that the RCC considers ("thinks") itself to possess authority to "change times and laws" [dan.7.25].


Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (Ayers Publishing, 1978): 108:
“But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”


The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957): 50:
   Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
   A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
   Q. Why Do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
   A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.


Chancellor Albert Smith for Cardinal of Baltimore Archdiocese, letter dated February 10, 1920:
“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath day by God is Saturday. In keeping the Sunday, they are following a law of the Catholic Church.”


Stephen Keenan, Catholic—Doctrinal Catechism 3rd Edition: 174:
“Question: Have you any other way of proving the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her, she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the 1st day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the 7th day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”


Our Sunday Visitor (February 5, 1950):
“Practically everything Protestants regard as essential or important they have received from the Catholic Church... The Protestant mind does not seem to realize that in accepting the Bible and observing the Sunday, in keeping Christmas and Easter, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.”


Louis Gaston Segur, Plain Talk about the Protestantism of To-Day (London: Thomas Richardson and Son, 1874): 213:
“Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is a homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) Church.”


The catholic Mirror (September 23, 1893):
“The Catholic Church, for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday...”

“The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who can find no warrant in its pages for the change of day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation, ‘Seventh-day Adventists."


Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSR, Kansas City, MO:
“It was the holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday to Sunday, the 1st day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodicea, AD 364, anathematized those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema.”


Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSR, lecture at Hartford, KS, Feb 18, 1884:
“I have repeatedly offered $1000 to any one who can furnish any proof from the Bible that Sunday is the day we are bound to keep...The Bible says, “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy,” but the Catholic Church says, “No, keep the first day of the week,” and the whole world bows in obedience.”


Cardinal John Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (London: Basil Montague Pickering, 1878): 373:
“The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holy days and seasons…are all of pagan origin and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.”


Catholic Record (September 1, 1923):
“The [catholic] Church is above the Bible, and this transference of the Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.”

American Catholic Quarterly Review (January 1883):
“Sunday...is purely a creation of the Catholic Church.”

These quotes need to be considered in a serious way as I see it. By those who hold to the notion that their belief regarding "the first day of the week" is the 'new Christian sabbath' or that the meaning of "the Lord's Day" is one that is actually taught in scripture. Neither is taught in scripture.


Now to address the most well-worn section of the New testament cited as proof-positive that the "first day of the week is" a holy day...the day to gather together ('go to Church', as so many refer to it)

Act 20:6 "And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days."

Act 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

The "first day of the week” – commencing just after the seventh day has ended at the setting of the sun, as the sun sets below the horizon.

Say, just for ease sake, lets say that the sun sets right at 6:00pm, so that at 6:00:01pm the next day commences and does not finish until 6:00:00pm the following evening.

So the disciples decided to assemble together - as it says - to “break bread”.

Question: Are you prone to assume automatically (having been so taught) that this was a habitual common occurrence, that these believers gathered together “upon” EACH and EVERY “first day of the week out of observance of some command to do so on the first day (as opposed to the seventh day)?
Or could it be - is it possible that they had a particularly special, practical and good reason to gather together on this particular first day?

Well, the text certainly does not elaborate, let alone make any declarative statements that states or even suggests that this was an ongoing regular (habitual) occurrence. It merely states that “the disciples came together to break bread” “upon the first day of the week”. So for me, I have to examine the contextual setting that is laid out here in this narrative account. In order to determine what is and also what is not being communicated in this portion of Luke’s treatise.

One thing it DOES NOT say is this: “As was the custom of the disciples...”, or “As it were their custom, the disciples gathered together…”; or “As it was the custom or tradition of the Apostles…; or “According to the commandment of the Lord and his apostles, upon the first day of the week the disciples gathered together to break bread...”

Apart from being able to actually produce scriptural evidence that leaves no room for doubt, but unequivocally proves and affirms the claims of those who insist that:
(1) the command to “keep” “the seventh day of the week” (Friday night thru Saturday) has been done away with; and

(2) “the first day of the week” (Saturday night thru Sunday...or just the day time period of Sunday) has how been designated by the Lord to be observed as a holy day, God’s ‘new’ holy day, the ‘New Sabbath’ and “the Lord’s Day”.

I have no other reasonable or wise choice than to reject the claims of those that teach ‘Sunday’ is the day the Lord NOW requires to be worshiped on and his people are to gather together on. I have to judge these unsubstantiated claims to be little more than the traditions of men and not that of the Apostles or God - not sound doctrine.


Act 20:8 "And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together."

Makes sense to me. When it gets dark, it is advisable to illuminate whatever areas or room(s) is (are) being employed to meet together in – if being able to see is something of interest or importance to you that is.

This point is of no small consequence: “there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.”
Why? Because they were meeting together during what they knew to be the beginning portion of the first day - the dark portion of the first day - at NIGHT, what we call ‘Saturday night. That’s how all days begin when you begin the days at sunset of each day.

Two things: The Sabbath had ended, and now the 1st day has begun.

In my way of thinking. If I am a Jewish believer and I am gathering together with other believers that are either gentile proselytes to Judaism or gentiles converted to this ‘new’ Jewish sect of Judaism out of some pagan religion. I am pretty sure that I have just finished ‘keeping’ the Sabbath – my rest day. And if I am correct here, I would say that all these other converts to Judaism, and now converted but again, but now to this new sect of Judaism: the Way (or Christianity); that we ONE and ALL were resting and worshiping together earlier during the Sabbath (from sunset of the previous day, up and until sunset of the just moments before perhaps).

But NOW, having a very special visitor – Paul the apostle himself. Who after having visited for seven days with the disciples here in, is now prepared to continue on his journey. So, wouldn’t you want to make the most of his presence and glean as much insights from him as you could? Certainly. So how so?
Simple, you extend your 'gathering together' with Paul, before he has to leave?

This takes you then from the day portion of the 7th day (when you gathered together with Paul and his companions during the Sabbath) and extends it into the next day – the dark portion of what now is the 1st day of the week (not the Sabbath, but the first day of the six day work week).

I see that their actual ‘custom’ was to ‘keep the (7th day) sabbath’ as it definitely was still being observed (and was so for a great many years afterwards). And if there were any special situations ,as was the case here with Paul’s presence. Then they naturally would have extended the assembling of themselves together into the first day (the night portion of course, as it occurred first).

There is no injunction, or command given or alluded to herein to ‘keep holy’ the first (1st) day of the week. But come to this passage with a predetermined presumption of that notion. Well, you can hardly avoid reading into this text what you want it to say (this is so regarding the other alleged ‘proof-text’ passages that adherents to this error routinely “wrest” to fit their deeply ingrained erroneous notions about the first day. 

Act 20:9 "And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead."

So, Paul had been preaching already from sunset or thereabouts “unto midnight”. Too much for this young man to take in. So he falls out the window and dies.

Act 20:10 "And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him."
Act 20:12 "And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.
But Paul, still endowed with special healing powers, brings Eutychus back to life."

Act 20:11 "When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed."

After reviving the young man. Paul pauses his speech to “break bread” (midnight meal), then resumes his discourse and continues to preach “even till the break of day”. I have NEVER attended ANY meeting where this ever occurred.

So to those who are determined in insisting that this portion of scripture is the blueprint as to the DAY and MANNER in which the ‘Church’ is to conduct itself in our gathering together. Then hear and take heed to what this scripture says. But I am not aware of any group that esteems itself to be a ‘biblical Church’ that follows the pattern that is presented in Acts 20:7-14. 

If Acts 20:7-14 is the pattern, then why do we not see any so-called ‘biblical Churches’ holding their ‘Church services’ on Saturday night, rather than Sunday mornings and Sunday evenings? And not just from one to three or so hours of a ‘service’ (the typical time frame of 9:30am to 12:45pm). But rather for six to twelve hours of ‘service’ – and that from sunset of the evening before, straight through to sunrise (from say, 6:01pm Saturday -to- around 6:00am Sunday morning)?

You don’t see this because no one is going to do this. Even if they would still insist that Acts 20 is the blueprint the ‘Church’ is to follow.

But not to worry. Acts 20:7-14 is not any alleged blueprint assemblies are to follow. Just as meeting from sunset to sunrise (rather than during the day portion of the day) is not a requirement of the Lord; nor is “breaking bread” at midnight (or close thereof); nor is the use of primitive lamps required; nor buildings that contain upper rooms. Neither is gathering on the first day of the week a requirement, a command, an ordinance or “decrees for to keep” [Acts 16:4].
 
Act 20:13 "And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot."
Act 20:14 "And when he met with us at Assos, we took him in, and came to Mitylene."


Now notice that Paul after he had preached “until the break of day”, he “departed”.
What?
Apply this to today:

By the time you wake up, cleaned yourself, dressed, ate breakfast gathered your things together, hopped into the car, drove to ‘church’, entered the hall and sat down waiting for the ‘service to start. Paul had already completed a 12 hour marathon of preaching, had left the building before the Sun’s first rays shone on the pathway before him. And after a four or five hour walk, he most likely already reached his destination – on foot – some twelve to fifteen miles away. All before your typical Sunday School has finished.

In that case. Paul was a very bad example to follow as a faithful ‘Sunday Church goer’. Not only has he failed to show up for Church. He’s joined up with his companions for a ‘cruise’.
   

Whether the 7th day Sabbath is enjoined upon the believer to ‘keep’ under the new covenant or not, I am not fully persuaded. But I know that the 7th day IS THE SABBATH. That it has NOT been obliterated; let alone changed or transferred to the 1st day.

I also know given the absence of any direct, plain and/or clear language in scripture that says otherwise; it is evident that neither the Apostles, nor the Lord himself has given any instructions, commandments, injunctions, or requirements to ‘keep’ the 1st day of the week holy as so many claim they have.

The 1st day of the week is NOT, was NOT ordained by God to ‘gather together’ on it. Neither am I aware of any actual proof that the 1st day of the week is as many emphatically claim: The Lord’s Day. John in the Revelation does not define what he meant by the Lord’s Day, when he said: “I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet…”

As far as I can tell, the only Day that can even closely be construed to be the Lord’s Day, IS the 7th day Sabbath day: “If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:” [isa.58.13]

But by the same token, to date, I see nothing forbidding meeting together on the 1st day either.
I see that the early Hebrew ‘Ekklesia’ did not forsake their keeping or resting on the Sabbath as they previously had done as well as their forefather’s had done in times past. And as Acts 20 indicates, who knows, perhaps on special occasions meetings ran long. So, people continued to gather together AFTER the Sabbath had ended and the 1st day began. Makes sense to me.

It is clear that Paul (Apollus and others) as was their custom, met together with others in this or that city on the Sabbath day, in the Synagogues. I do not ascribe to the notion that Paul ONLY did so in his efforts to win some to Christ among the Jews. That he ONLY went to the synagogues on the Sabbath day, to engage with his fellow countrymen and nation (because that was both the place and the time that he would have opportunity to engage with the people of his nation). 

That is somewhat I see in all this discussion about seventh day (the sabbath) vs the first day.

A logical progression of thought, addressing many points which have been repeated on these boards over and again for many years now. The simple fact is that everyone will have to choose for themselves between these two different days which are both claimed to be of divine origin. One repeatedly identified as such in scripture, and the other repeatedly claimed as such by one institution in particular with much support by the majority of professing Christians today. The many civil Sunday laws throughout history attempting to force everyone to acknowledge this day, have caused much agitation, stress, and real live suffering among seventh day sabbath keepers. The institution which itself claims authority and responsibility for the establishment of Sunday sacredness still preaches and attempts to establish its chosen day of preference by law wherever possible. It is the duty of its adherents to seek to do the same wherever they are. Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

Quote
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Sunday- fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:[107] 
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.[108]

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."[109] Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

A day of grace and rest from work
2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"[121] human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.[122]

2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.[123] Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health. 
The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.[124]

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]

IN BRIEF
2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).

2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).

2192 "Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 # 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

2193 "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound . . . to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247).

2194 The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their amilial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 # 3).

2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day.

Offline Rella

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #54 on: Sat Nov 28, 2020 - 18:47:35 »
Quote
p.progress
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Yes very long. And may require a great deal of editing. But too late to do so.

While I may not be fully persuaded in my own mind whether the 4th commandment is in force today for those who are ‘under’ (have entered into) the new covenant; and that I [we] are 'required' to "keep" it as was required under the previous covenant Israel entered into with the LORD God at Mt. Sinai (as ridiculous as that may sound to some).

Yet, I suffer from no doubt whatsoever that the sabbath is no other day of the week than the 7th day. Neither the 2nd day of the week, nor the 3rd day of the week, nor the 4th, nor the 5th, or 6th, nor the 1st day of the week is ever or anywhere in scripture called or referred to as “the sabbath of the Lord” (the day that God rested upon), nor called God’s “holy sabbath (“thy [God’s] holy sabbath)...his “holy day”...”the rest of thy [God’s] holy sabbath”.

As it is written:
     “But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [exd.20.10; see also: lev.23.3; deu.5.14]

I am not going to debate Saturday or sunday as which is the proper day that we should observe "Sabbath" activities or lack of work.

I will admit to not having read all ofyourpost,but what I did read did not addressatruth,no matter which side of the fence you are on.

The Sabbath IS NOT SATURDAY.... It is from Sundown (evening of Friday) to sundown (evening of Saturday)... or commonly accepted6PM to 6PM

Unless or until you incorporate this into the mix you lack standing in your argument.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #55 on: Sat Nov 28, 2020 - 21:17:17 »
And to you to sir. I am not married to the law, the law condemns me. I seek to be hidden in Christ Jesus, and transformed from a law breaker to a law keeper as my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was the latter. I may be wrong, but I do not believe you would think such of me for wanting to obey any of the other ten commandment of God, would you? Would I be married to the law for not wanting to worship other gods, for not wanting to bow down before images, for not wanting to take the Lord's name in vain, for wanting to honor my father and mother, for not wanting to kill, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, or covet my neighbors stuff? If not, why would wanting to keep the fourth commandment alone constitute being married to the law? If so, which commandments one would desire to keep constitute being married to the law? You are of course free to believe what you wish, and to believe whatever you wish about me. Speaking it out loud though, or writing it for all to see, could possibly constitute bearing false witness, only if you happen to be wrong of course. Praise God, that He will be the final judge of all such matters. We are so deficient in that area.
It's not that you keep them (that's good), it's HOW you keep them.

The Pharisees managed to "honor" their parents without supporting them, keeping the letter and not the spirit.  I would happily condemn that, just the same as I condemn HOW you keep the Sabbath.

Jarrod

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #56 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 08:48:08 »
It's not that you keep them (that's good), it's HOW you keep them.

The Pharisees managed to "honor" their parents without supporting them, keeping the letter and not the spirit.  I would happily condemn that, just the same as I condemn HOW you keep the Sabbath.

Jarrod

I would disagree, the Pharisees did not honor their parents at all, accepting in their own minds perhaps. Keeping the Sabbath isn't rocket science, or some deep spiritual mystery, though its effects can and do run very deep within. The Pharisees found some way to spiritualize away honoring their parents through their religion. Many people seek to do the same with God's Sabbath. Keeping God's commands are as simple as doing or not doing what they say, it is the effect of doing so that is so profound in this world of sin and woe. All who seek to keep God's commands by faith in His word, that doing so is right and a goal to be obtained which His Son our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ exemplified, will be saved. None who think they can be saved by keeping them, will be saved, for they will miserably fail. Nevertheless, the commands themselves are not rocket science or deep mysteries which few can comprehend.

Exo 20:8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The commands are simple, we are the ones who complicate them when we do not wish to keep them.

Mat 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The Pharisees worked out a way through their traditions to pretend that they actually honored their fathers and mothers, when they did not. This was done by lifting the traditions of men above the commandments of God. Just as the tradition of Sunday sacredness has been lifted above the fourth commandment of God by the vast majority of professed Christians. Therefore do they continually complicate the issue of this commandment and allude to deeper meanings of its significance, some of which are actually true, that they may not submit to the simplicity of the command itself. Nevertheless, "they make the commandment of God of none effect, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men." So be it.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #57 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 10:58:10 »
The Pharisees worked out a way through their traditions to pretend that they actually honored their fathers and mothers, when they did not. This was done by lifting the traditions of men above the commandments of God. Just as the tradition of Sunday sacredness has been lifted above the fourth commandment of God by the vast majority of professed Christians. Therefore do they continually complicate the issue of this commandment and allude to deeper meanings of its significance, some of which are actually true, that they may not submit to the simplicity of the command itself. Nevertheless, "they make the commandment of God of none effect, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men." So be it.
Eloquently put.  I shall borrow it...

The SDA worked out a way through their traditions to pretend that they actually rested, when in fact they turned the rest day into a labor. This was done by lifting the traditions of men above the commandments of God.  Therefore do they continually complicate the issue of this commandment and allude to deeper meanings of its significance, that they may not submit to the simplicity of the command itself. Nevertheless, "they make the commandment of God of none effect, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men."

Really, a lot of churches have turned rest to labor.  But the SDA seems to have perfected the practice.

Offline p.progress

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #58 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 22:27:58 »
The following is my attempt to make sense of what you stated in your post. Correct me if I am mis-understanding what you stated. 

Quote
I am not going to [enter into a] debate [with you about] Saturday or Sunday; as [to] which [one of these days] is the proper day that we should observe "Sabbath" activities or lack of work.

I will admit to not having read all of your post...
but what I did read did not address a truth, no matter which side of the fence you are on.

The Sabbath IS NOT SATURDAY.... It is from Sundown (evening of Friday) to sundown (evening of Saturday)... or commonly accepted 6PM to 6PM.

Unless or until you incorporate this into the mix you lack standing in your argument.

OK?

I’ll start from the position that my interpretive rendering of your post is close enough to what you meant to communicate. 

Quote
“I am not going to [enter into a] debate [with you about] Saturday or Sunday as [to] which [one of these days] is the proper day that we should observe "Sabbath" activities or lack of work.”...”

Good.

Firstly: Well, as you point out below the ‘day’ of the weekly sabbath would not be properly understood by , ‘Saturday’.

While it is known that our days begin at the stroke of midnight. Nevertheless (in effect), most generally think in terms that ‘the daybegins in the daylight portion of the day.  This is true of Monday, Tuesday...Friday, Saturday and Sunday.


Secondly: You say you’re not going to debate about the ‘day’ (whether Saturday or Sunday) – or on which of these days “we should observe Sabbath activities or lack of work.”...” – but, you speak as if it is well established that “we should observe” the Sabbath and whatever “activities” associated with it.


With respect to the above quote:
Quote
“I am not going to [enter into a] debate [with you about] Saturday or Sunday as [to] which [one of these days] is the proper day that we should observe "Sabbath" activities or lack of work.”...”

I would say as of this date, I am not (yet) convinced that believing Gentiles [such as myself] as a “wild by nature...wild olive tree” “grafted” into and partaker of the “root” and fatness of the [natural] olive tree, are under any obligation in God’s eyes or present economy (covenant) to "keep the Sabbath".

[See: exo.31:14; 31:16; deu.5:12, 15; neh.9.14; acts 15:19-21; 21-24, 28-29; 21:25]


Quote
"I will admit to not having read all of your post..."

Yes. That much is obvious to me.
I mean no offense here. But since you admitted you did not read my whole post; I’ll say it would’ve been prudent not to have commented on my post, and just skipped it.

Be that as it may, since you did, I’ll take this opportunity to address your statements.


Quote
"...but what I did read did not address a truth, no matter which side of the fence you are on."

Which truth (of the many truths that I could have elaborated on even more) did I fail to address?

Quote
"The Sabbath IS NOT SATURDAY.... It is from Sundown (evening of Friday) to sundown (evening of Saturday)...or commonly accepted 6PM to 6PM"

Remember the old SNL series with Gilda Radner, playing the character of Emily Litella. Where she goes on a rant or crusade about some issue or something. But after awhile, the news anchor interrupted her to inform her that she’s been misinformed thus misguided in her rants against [what or whom ever].

So funny how sweetly she’d retreat from her grossly misinformed protestations. She’d then say with a smile: “Never-mind.”

Well if you had read my l-o-n-g tedious post, you would have found that I did indeed address this 'truth' regarding the actual and scripturally defined time that each day begins – including the 7th day.

I generally (if not virtually at all times) avoid saying something like “‘Saturday’ is the Sabbath”.
 

OUR RECKONING of TIME of DAY
VS
SCRIPTURE'S RECKONING of TIME of DAY

We all were taught that the day begins at 12:00:00am midnight of every day. Whereas in the Word of God it ‘appears’ that the beginning of a day is reckoned from the time the Sun has set (on a given day) to the next time the Sun is about to set (on the following day). Generally stated as from sunset to sunset – or from one sunset to the next sunset.

Now, I stated the above for extra clarity. But if you had read my l-o-n-g post, you would have found that I expressed the same 'truth' several times or more therein.


WHAT YOU MISSED IN MY PREVIOUS POST
THE SABBATH: BEGINS AND ENDS ON THE 7TH DAY - NOT 'SATURDAY'
SUNSET (say 6:00:01pm) - TO - SUNSET (say 6:00:00pm)

Below, I have copied and pasted what you missed in my previous post on this matte:

[A].
“...But those holy convocations are NOT referring to the (7th) seventh day weekly sabbath, which weekly sabbath’s rest commences after sunset of the (6th) sixth day (loosely speaking, our Friday evening)...”

[B.]
“...Act 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

“The "first day of the week” – commencing just after the seventh day has ended at the setting of the sun, as the sun sets below the horizon.

“Say, just for ease sake, lets say that the sun sets right at 6:00:00pm, so that at 6:00:01pm the next day commences and does not finish until right dead on 6:00:00pm the following evening.

“So the disciples decided to assemble together - as it says - to “break bread”...”


[C.]
“...Act 20:8 "And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together."

“Makes sense to me. When it gets dark, it is advisable to illuminate whatever areas or room(s) are being employed to meet together in – if being able to see is something of interest or importance to you that is.

“This point is of no small consequence: “there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

“Why? Because they were meeting together during what they knew to be the beginning portion of the (1st) first day – which is the dark portion of the (1st) first day - at NIGHT, loosely, part of what we call ‘Saturday night’. That’s how all days begin, when you begin the days at sunset of each day.

“Two things: The Sabbath had ended, and now the (1st) first day has begun.

“In my way of thinking. If I am a Jewish believer and I am gathering together with other believers that are either gentile proselytes to Judaism or gentiles converted to this ‘new’ Jewish sect of Judaism out of some pagan religion. I am pretty sure that I have just finished ‘keeping’ the Sabbath – my rest day. And if I am correct here, I would say that all these other converts to Judaism, and now converted – but again – but now to this “new sect” of Judaism: "the Way" (or Christianity); that we ONE and ALL were resting and worshiping together earlier during the Sabbath (from sunset of the previous day, up and until sunset of the just moments before perhaps)...”


[D.]

“..Act 20:9 "And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead."

“So, Paul had been preaching already from sunset or thereabouts “unto midnight”. Too much for this young man to take in. So he falls out the window and dies...”


Hopefully you see that I am aware of and did in fact made a point – several times – that the day began at sunset (just after) and ended only at the following sunset

Have a good ‘day’...however you slice it.


p.progress


« Last Edit: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 23:08:30 by p.progress »

Offline GB

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #59 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 08:53:00 »
Of course that would be correct.

If the Jewish commentators are correct; and God being perfection and order had to withdraw Himself from some part in order to make Time/Space creation; then chaos would be in that place.  If you remove perfection and order, you are left with chaos.

I have come to fully believe that the spirit of this world, as it did with Eve, has truly deceived the inhabitants of this earth, and it has accomplished this feat through religions voices who use some of God's words, and religious men who come in Christ's Name as Jesus Himself warns.

4WD relies a lot on these "other voices" for his doctrines, as this is one of the most common religious traditions of the religions of this world since the beginning. Paul exposes the same religious tradition in his time, regarding that great religious theologian Gamaliel. And as a result of listening and believing his teachings, he became a "child of the devil" while believing completely that he was a child of God. This is just a Biblical Fact. It is easy to see this phenomenon in others, less so in ourselves as we tend to defend our self, instead of "deny our self" as Jesus instructs "whosever"  comes to HIM is to do.

As a result it becomes increasingly difficult to have an intellectually honest discussion about scriptures because the agenda isn't to reveal the teaching, rather, to defend existing religious beliefs. You notice 4WD rarely addresses the actual content of a post, instead he will pick one sentence and use it to deflect away from have an important discussion and examination of scriptures. I know he means no harm, any more that Eve meant harm to Adam when she shared what satan had convinced her of.

Your reply is a good one, and should prompt some discussion. You have chosen to place some weight on some random Jewish commentator, with no malice or evil intent, suggesting that God must come how "remove Himself"  from the creation of darkness or chaos. My point would be to consider what this same God actually said, and then "cling to His Words".

Is. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And again;

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

We can't know darkness unless our creator defines it for us. We can't know evil unless our creator defines it for us. We can't know Good unless our creator defines it for us.In this life it seems, according to Scriptures, that perfect order of God contains both good and evil, both light and darkness, created in perfection by the Creator of all things.

But in this perfect order we also have another "voice", another creator setting about to turn us away from God's definitions towards its own as it did Eve. A perfect "Choice" God set's before us.

We are judged by which voice we choose to "Live by".

2 Cor. 5: 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Is the 4th Commandment bad? Shouldn't we ask God? But when we find HIS answer to that question, then what?











Offline GB

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #60 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 09:13:49 »
Eloquently put.  I shall borrow it...

The SDA worked out a way through their traditions to pretend that they actually rested, when in fact they turned the rest day into a labor. This was done by lifting the traditions of men above the commandments of God.  Therefore do they continually complicate the issue of this commandment and allude to deeper meanings of its significance, that they may not submit to the simplicity of the command itself. Nevertheless, "they make the commandment of God of none effect, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men."

Really, a lot of churches have turned rest to labor.  But the SDA seems to have perfected the practice.

Very well put. This actually makes SDA more dangerous than all the Catholic and Protestant religious franchises of the world which out right reject the commandment of God, in my view. Any one interested in Biblical Truth can discern the traditions of these religions with transgress the commandments of God. SDA teachings have an appearance of deeper truth and tends to snare more folks who are interested in a more personal relationship with the God of the bible, than becoming a member of a feel good religious social club.

Col. 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

WE should, it seems, allow the holy scriptures to guide us how to "Live by" the Word's which proceed out of the mouth of God regarding His Holy Sabbaths. Not create a huge religious healthcare and educational business 24/7 for profit around it.

Good post Jarrod, compelling as usual.




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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #61 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 15:28:03 »
The following is my attempt to make sense of what you stated in your post. Correct me if I am mis-understanding what you stated. 

OK?

I’ll start from the position that my interpretive rendering of your post is close enough to what you meant to communicate. 
 
Good.

Firstly: Well, as you point out below the ‘day’ of the weekly sabbath would not be properly understood by , ‘Saturday’.

While it is known that our days begin at the stroke of midnight. Nevertheless (in effect), most generally think in terms that ‘the daybegins in the daylight portion of the day.  This is true of Monday, Tuesday...Friday, Saturday and Sunday.


Secondly: You say you’re not going to debate about the ‘day’ (whether Saturday or Sunday) – or on which of these days “we should observe Sabbath activities or lack of work.”...” – but, you speak as if it is well established that “we should observe” the Sabbath and whatever “activities” associated with it.


With respect to the above quote:
I would say as of this date, I am not (yet) convinced that believing Gentiles [such as myself] as a “wild by nature...wild olive tree” “grafted” into and partaker of the “root” and fatness of the [natural] olive tree, are under any obligation in God’s eyes or present economy (covenant) to "keep the Sabbath".

[See: exo.31:14; 31:16; deu.5:12, 15; neh.9.14; acts 15:19-21; 21-24, 28-29; 21:25]


Yes. That much is obvious to me.
I mean no offense here. But since you admitted you did not read my whole post; I’ll say it would’ve been prudent not to have commented on my post, and just skipped it.

Be that as it may, since you did, I’ll take this opportunity to address your statements.


Which truth (of the many truths that I could have elaborated on even more) did I fail to address?

Remember the old SNL series with Gilda Radner, playing the character of Emily Litella. Where she goes on a rant or crusade about some issue or something. But after awhile, the news anchor interrupted her to inform her that she’s been misinformed thus misguided in her rants against [what or whom ever].

So funny how sweetly she’d retreat from her grossly misinformed protestations. She’d then say with a smile: “Never-mind.”

Well if you had read my l-o-n-g tedious post, you would have found that I did indeed address this 'truth' regarding the actual and scripturally defined time that each day begins – including the 7th day.

I generally (if not virtually at all times) avoid saying something like “‘Saturday’ is the Sabbath”.
 

OUR RECKONING of TIME of DAY
VS
SCRIPTURE'S RECKONING of TIME of DAY

We all were taught that the day begins at 12:00:00am midnight of every day. Whereas in the Word of God it ‘appears’ that the beginning of a day is reckoned from the time the Sun has set (on a given day) to the next time the Sun is about to set (on the following day). Generally stated as from sunset to sunset – or from one sunset to the next sunset.

Now, I stated the above for extra clarity. But if you had read my l-o-n-g post, you would have found that I expressed the same 'truth' several times or more therein.


WHAT YOU MISSED IN MY PREVIOUS POST
THE SABBATH: BEGINS AND ENDS ON THE 7TH DAY - NOT 'SATURDAY'
SUNSET (say 6:00:01pm) - TO - SUNSET (say 6:00:00pm)

Below, I have copied and pasted what you missed in my previous post on this matte:

[A].
“...But those holy convocations are NOT referring to the (7th) seventh day weekly sabbath, which weekly sabbath’s rest commences after sunset of the (6th) sixth day (loosely speaking, our Friday evening)...”

[B.]
“...Act 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

“The "first day of the week” – commencing just after the seventh day has ended at the setting of the sun, as the sun sets below the horizon.

“Say, just for ease sake, lets say that the sun sets right at 6:00:00pm, so that at 6:00:01pm the next day commences and does not finish until right dead on 6:00:00pm the following evening.

“So the disciples decided to assemble together - as it says - to “break bread”...”


[C.]
“...Act 20:8 "And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together."

“Makes sense to me. When it gets dark, it is advisable to illuminate whatever areas or room(s) are being employed to meet together in – if being able to see is something of interest or importance to you that is.

“This point is of no small consequence: “there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

“Why? Because they were meeting together during what they knew to be the beginning portion of the (1st) first day – which is the dark portion of the (1st) first day - at NIGHT, loosely, part of what we call ‘Saturday night’. That’s how all days begin, when you begin the days at sunset of each day.

“Two things: The Sabbath had ended, and now the (1st) first day has begun.

“In my way of thinking. If I am a Jewish believer and I am gathering together with other believers that are either gentile proselytes to Judaism or gentiles converted to this ‘new’ Jewish sect of Judaism out of some pagan religion. I am pretty sure that I have just finished ‘keeping’ the Sabbath – my rest day. And if I am correct here, I would say that all these other converts to Judaism, and now converted – but again – but now to this “new sect” of Judaism: "the Way" (or Christianity); that we ONE and ALL were resting and worshiping together earlier during the Sabbath (from sunset of the previous day, up and until sunset of the just moments before perhaps)...”


[D.]

“..Act 20:9 "And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead."

“So, Paul had been preaching already from sunset or thereabouts “unto midnight”. Too much for this young man to take in. So he falls out the window and dies...”


Hopefully you see that I am aware of and did in fact made a point – several times – that the day began at sunset (just after) and ended only at the following sunset

Have a good ‘day’...however you slice it.


p.progress

My apologies if I missed a point of yours.... That being the 6PM sundown to 6 PM sundown  comprising a day.
So many people state "the Sabbath" is Saturday and nothing could be farther from the truth.

It has nothing to do with what you posted but I generally do not read long posts for  a multitude of reasons.

Genesis is clear, as it has been written and interpreted that creation took place in 6 days and God rested on the 7th.  Ergo, the birth of the Sabbath,if you will.

We cannot, and should not equate our common beliefs of a day starting at 12:01 AM. I honestly do not know, nor do I care how that came about but it has nothing to do with God time.

True that Exodus 20 tells us:

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

But it cannot be ignored that while In Genesis 2:2-3 where we are told that ...on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.... The question we have to ask here is~ was God’s creation “rest” limited to a 24-hour period? Look at  Psalm 95 and Hebrews 4, both of which teach that God’s Sabbath rest “remains” and that we can enter into it or be prevented from entering it.

I know, I digress and this is aside from your OT.

Personally I feel it is up to the person to chose which day.

The end of the work week, with thanks to their heavenly provider , or the first of the week with their gratitude of what has been given to them.

Possibly it should be both ::tippinghat::

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #62 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 15:44:25 »
The Sabbath or the 7th day in Jewish time reckoning IS Sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday. The first day is Sundown Saturday to Sundown Sunday. I guess his reference only to Saturday was an attempt to link Jewish time reckoning to our time reckoning which is Midnight to Midnight. He might have been clearer to have said the 7th day rather than Saturday.

When reckoning Biblical time periods the accepted norm is, as you have stated, from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday - the 7th day.   

This means that Sunday is actually the first day of the week.   When referencing Genesis 1 we see God performed certain acts on the first day, second day and so on.   On each day it is written that God said it was good.  Each day EXCEPT the second day.   God did not bless the second day, which is MONDAY.  Apparently even God isn't too thrilled with Mondays.

Shabbat, or sabbath, reckoning of sundown to sundown isn't the only holiday observed for that time period.   There are even some that go from noon of one day to noon of another.

Why is this of concern to us?

In Mark 13 the disciples ask Jesus when He would return.  Christ's answer is that only the Father knows.   The answer isn't meant to be cryptic or convoluted.   It goes to the keeping of Shabbat and its ancillary holidays - as in the Second coming.

Moses wrote that a holiday called the Year of Jubilee was to be held every fifty years.  Unfortunately he died before the first Jubilee could be observed.   Hebrews never kept the Jubilee, which required the forgiveness of debts, release of slaves, return of real estate to the original owner, and so on.  Jews of Jesus' day believed the coming of the messiah (anointed one) was linked to Jubilee, but since they'd forgotten the original date of the first Jubilee they couldn't calculate the numbers on their calendar.   Its gets worse.   

Not only did the Jews not know what date Jubilee was to be held, they didn't know the hour it ought to be expected - sundown, sunrise, noon, whatever.  THIS is why Jesus said nobody knew the day or the hour.   His answer had nothing to do with being mysterious.   It had to do with bad arithmetic and failure to observe required holidays.  Virtually everything God did in the Bible is linked somehow to an important holiday or observance before during or after it had been established.

For example, the Jewish holiday of Shavout is an observance of God's giving the LAW (10 commandments) to Moses.

Post-Protestant churches deny the efficacy of the LAW and falsely claim GRACE alone saves them.   They observe the holiday of Pentecost when the gift of GRACE in the form of the Holy Spirit fell upon the disciples.   What Christians have forgotten is that Shavout and Pentecost fall on the SAME CALENDAR DAY.  Is this a coincidence or is God telling us something important about LAW & GRACE?

Times and dates and observances as described in the Bible are important because they have God's attention - as they should our own.  Shabbat or sabbath is God's command to us to separate THAT day to  Him.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....   

Offline Choir Loft

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #63 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 15:48:39 »

I know, I digress and this is aside from your OT.

Personally I feel it is up to the person to chose which day.

The end of the work week, with thanks to their heavenly provider , or the first of the week with their gratitude of what has been given to them.

Possibly it should be both ::tippinghat::

It is most definitely NOT "up to the person to chose which day".   

If God's Word is to be respected and observed, then the day God assigned, Saturday, is the day set apart for particular religious observance.

Are the 10 commandments "up to the individual"?   If so, then I am justified in murdering you, raping your wife, stealing your goods, burning your house to the ground and blaming you for the whole sad affair.   This sounds more like a middle eastern religion than Biblical command.

The practice of observing worship on Sunday is a ROMAN CATHOLIC perversion of scripture.  Post protestant churches march in lock-step with the Vatican when they also support Sunday as the Lord's Day.

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

Saturday belongs to God.
Sunday belongs to the NFL.

How many times can you break the commandment of God and still consider yourself a right and true disciple of Christ?   The hypocrite can do it constantly.  The true disciple of Christ should have second thoughts about it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 15:55:00 by Choir Loft »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #64 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 23:29:24 »
Saturday belongs to God.

Quote from: Jesus
The Sabbath was made for man.

Now who should I believe?   ::headscratch::

Offline RB

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #65 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 03:57:06 »
Now who should I believe?   ::headscratch::
Jarrod~you know and so do I~It would be wise to follow Jesus' understanding of the holy Sabbath rest day. It was ordained with MAN BEST INTEREST in mind~it was not made for God~as a matter of truth, it was also made for man's ox, and all his servants and the LAND that ALL may REST and be refreshed, etc.  Exodus 20:8-11; Leviticus 25:2-7;, etc. Here's two to consider:
Quote from: Moses
Exodus 23:10-12~"And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof: But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard."
Quote from: Moses
Deuteromony 5:12-15~"Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day."
The sabbath day OF REST follows SIX days of labor, and that is DIFFERENT days for some than for others. SATURDAY is NOT a HOLY day of rest for all to follow. In our society, a seventh-day following six days of working is not the same for all~example...... our law enforcement is off different days of the week with most having to work on Saturdays..... a hard-partying day for this world. Our hospitals system cannot close up on Saturday's and even those who are ardent supporters of this day would say the same thing. If one reads carefully then they shall see that the seventh day of rest followed SIX DAYS OF WORKING, and it is different for different folks.

Should we rest one out of seven days? Absolutely......... for it was made for us to allow our bodies to be refresh and reenergized in order to perform at a higher quality than we would otherwise do with no rest.

I practice resting one out of seven days, generally, for me it is Sunday, but I fully understand it is not the same for all, even a person with a little insight should be able to understand this simple commandment. I'm THANKFUL that hospitals and our law enforcement and military working around the clock giving their people a day off to refresh themselves. The holy Sabbath was made for MAN, and his beast, and servants, and even his land, yet overall consider for MAN whom God placed here to dress and keep this earth and use it for his own profit with thanksgiving unto God Almighty who created all things for us to richly enjoy. 

Btw, I have had gardens most of my life and have practiced resting a part of it every seven years so that it could produce more overall in the long run. The same thing with flowers, etc~I DO NOT plant certain flowers in the same spot more than six years in a row~ I allow ground to rest one out of seven years per the word of God!
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 04:22:55 by RB »

Offline DaveW

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #66 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 08:29:04 »
My apologies if I missed a point of yours.... That being the 6PM sundown to 6 PM sundown  comprising a day.
So many people state "the Sabbath" is Saturday and nothing could be farther from the truth.
Actually, a 6 pm sundown only occurs twice a year -  at the equinoxes. Depending on your latitude, it could be several hours earlier (winter) or later (summer) than 6 pm.  Most Jewish calendars have times set for a specific community.

The Sabbath IS Saturday, but most people do not realize that the modern western way of determining hours days and seasons is NOT the biblical model. So Saturday starts at sundown Friday afternoon, even if that is as early as 2 pm.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #67 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 09:19:41 »
Now who should I believe?   ::headscratch::

Both. 

My wife and I buy stuff for our grandchildren who are living with us, but we retain ownership. That way we can tell them to NOT remove the sheets and pillows from their bed to use as superman capes, royal robes, punching bags, etc.

God made the Sabbath for us, but did not give us ownership over it.  If He had, we would have authority to change it or delete it altogether,
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 09:22:44 by DaveW »

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #68 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 12:03:45 »
You guys keep on keeping Saturn's Day.  I will meet with other Christians on the Lord's Day. ::nodding::

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Re: The fourth commandment ~ Sabbath
« Reply #69 on: Wed Dec 02, 2020 - 12:47:32 »
 But didn’t the Lord say He was the Lord of a specific day? Lord of the Sabbath?

 

     
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