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Offline Volkmar

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The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« on: February 18, 2012, 06:04:25 AM »
Quote
                               
                                          "The Pharisee and the Tax Collector"


     Let me lay out for you the story, Jesus' parable, of the Pharisee and the tax collector. Jesus says, "Two men went up to the temple to pray. One of them was a Pharisee. The other was a tax collector."
     You must remember that a tax collector was a crook. He was a person who was a Jew but he worked for the Roman government. He had a franchise, an area in which he was entitled to collect taxes. He was told by the Romans what he owed them. Anything else he made over and above that was his to pocket. The tax collectors were despised as turncoats and so on. So Jesus has set you up. He has sent in the Pharisee who was one of the most respectable people in Judaism of his time and He has sent into the temple with him this tax collector who is a mafia-style enforcer, who is a bad apple.
     The Pharisee stands by himself and he prays and he says, "God, I thank you that I am not like other people. I am not a thief. I am not a rogue. I am not an adulterer. I am certainly not like this tax collector over here. I fast twice a week. I give away a tenth of my income."
     That is his speech. He goes on interminably like that. Then the tax collector says (he won't look up to the heaven; he looks at his shoe tips), "God be merciful to me a sinner."
     Then Jesus says, "I tell you this man (the tax collector) went to his house justified rather than the other for all who exalt themselves will be humbled and all who humble themselves will be exalted."
     That is the story. Like all of Jesus' parables, it should carry a warning which is "this will be hazardous to all your previous opinions about how religion works and how God works." Jesus' parables are designed to outrage the hearers and to shock and to show how God has stood almost all of our values on their heads.
     What this parable is about is not, as it seems to say at the end, the virtue of humility. The Pharisee's problem is not that he is showing off. It is that he really believes that his stack of good deeds is enough to save the world. And he believes it is enough if only everyone else would do what he does -- that is enough to save the whole world.
    What God really says in Christ is that human goodness isn't good enough to do this trick. Human goodness cannot reconcile the world. Basically if the world could have been reconciled by good advice from God, to which human goodness would respond, the world's problems would have been solved ten minutes after Moses got down to the bottom of the mountain with the commandments. Everyone would have read the commandments and said, "Oh, yes, of course," and the problem would have been over. The trouble with the commandments is the commandments are fine, but no one has ever paid much attention to them.
     The law, the commandments, are efforts at morality, humility, spirituality and, above all, are efforts at religion, are efforts at trying to do something that will get us right with God. All don't work. Therefore God, as Jesus speaks of Him, doesn't risk trying to save the world by human good behavior. The Pharisee's mistake, therefore, is not that he is saying something that it is just proud or a little bit arrogant, but that what he is saying is dead wrong. His goodness is irrelevant to the problem that he is talking about. Therefore, God says that the tax collector who simply looks at his shoe tips and says, "I'm no good," is justified. Now, why?
     The point is that this parable is about death and resurrection. It is not about morality, spirituality or anything else. It is about the fact that both the Pharisee and the Publican (the tax collector), are dead ducks. The Pharisee is a very high class kind of dead duck, but they are both dead as far as being able to reconcile with God is concerned. The point about all of this is that the reconciliation God has in mind for them is totally dependent on their death.
     Jesus came to raise the dead. He did not come to teach the teachable; He did not come to improve the improvable; He did not come to reform the reformable. None of those things works. Jesus taught His disciples for three years. They never caught on to very much at all. God has been teaching the world for a millennia. The world hasn't done anything much about it. The tragedies go on. The lies go on. The nonsense goes on. The twaddle goes on. All the things that are wrong with the world go on. They are not amenable to talk. They are only amenable to action and, therefore, Jesus came to raise the dead -- meaning by deadness, you in your deadness, the Pharisee in his deadness and the tax collector in his deadness.
     Now you ask yourself a question. Do you like that parable? Of course, you don't like it. The point is that it violates every sense you and I have about the fact that we really are basically doing fairly well. If only other people were as nice and considerate and as wonderful as we are, the world would be a better place to live in and God says, "No. That will not work." It can't be done that way. It can't be done by people who think they are winners. It can only be done by people who are willing to admit they are losers and then who are willing to trust God in the death of their losing to do it for them, to deliver them the gift of a reconciliation with God.
      Again, I ask you the question. Do you like that? Once again the answer is no you don't like that because here is this terrible tax collector who is really a monstrous character and probably rubs salt in everybody's wounds. He drives around in a stretch limo with a case of Chivas Regal in the back of the trunk and several very expensive call girls with him at all times. He has just been skimming the cream off his neighbor's milk money. The point is that the Pharisee is no less dead than that dreadful character.
     So I want you to turn the parable around a little bit. Just imagine what it is like to see how the Pharisee is so wrong. Imagine God sitting in the temple at a golden card table in a golden chair and in come these two characters. The Pharisee comes across the temple and God is very busy. He is creating the universe out of nothing. He is holding the stars in their courses. He is reconciling all the generals in the Pentagon and the street walkers in Times Square and the drug addicts asleep in doorways. He is making the hair on my head grow, slowly at this point. He is doing all these things and He is very busy.
     Up comes this character, this Pharisee, and he whips out a pack of cards and he does a couple of one-handed cuts and an accordion shuffle and bridges them and fans them out for God and says, "Pick a card. I want to play cards with you."
      God folds the deck back up and He says, "Don't play me."
      So the Pharisee says, "No, no. I've been very lucky lately. Let's play Black Jack."
     He deals God a king and an ace and God pushes the card away and says, "Look, I don't want to take your money. You can't play with me. The odds are always on the house here and besides, no matter how full you think your deck is, you haven't got a full deck and you can never win playing this game of cards with me. So why don't you just be like that fellow over there who is looking at his shoes and the two of you go over and have a free drink and enjoy yourselves because you can be home free here if you will only stop this nonsense of trying to sell me, trying to win over me, trying to get an arm up on me, to do something to me to prove that you are okay. I don't care that you are not okay. I will raise you from the death of your lack of okayness. I will raise you up. Just trust me. That fellow over there, all he said was he was no good. He threw himself in trust on me. He's home free because all the dead are home free in my working of the universe, in my reconciliation of the world. All you have to do is recognize that death is the key to your salvation."
     Now you ask yourself the question, do you like that version of the parable? Again, you still don't like it. I'll prove you don't like it. Suppose the tax collector goes home justified. All right. You want me to bring him back a week later. So, I'll bring him back. The first trip back, the first week after this original experience, will bring him back with no changes in his life. Same stretch limo, same girls in the back, same expensive scotch and he comes in and he goes through the same routine. He looks at his feet and says, "God, be merciful to me. I am no good."
     What will God say to him? Well, in the way Jesus told the parable, God will say the same thing this week He said the week before. He will say, "This man goes home justified because he admits he is dead."
      He didn't tell him the first week, "You are justified but don't do it again." He said, "I have raised you from your death. You trust that. All right. Go in peace."
     The second week with no changes, the same thing. Do you like that version of the story? No. You don't like that. The rat is getting away with murder. So I will do something else. I'll give you a second version. Bring him back yet the third week for another trip to the temple, but this week bring him back with some change in his life. That is what you are itching for me to say, I think, that you want me to say something that he really needs or change his way, mend his ways at least a little. All right.
      So we bring him back the third week. We'll bring him back. He is not driving a stretch limo. He is driving a Hyundai. He only has one girl in the car with him and he is drinking cheaper scotch and giving the difference to the Heart Fund.
     Why would God listen to that list of two-bit improvements when He wouldn't listen to the Pharisee's list of really respectable virtues, a really solid citizen? The thing you have to ask yourself is, "Why are you itching to send the Publican, the tax collector, back with the Pharisee's speech in his pocket?"
     The answer is we fear salvation that is so cheap that it saves everyone in his or her death. Death. Death of sin, death of disaster, dead of grief. That is where God works. God works in the losers of the world. He works in all of us. What it means, the reason we fear it so much, is that it means in the long run that death is catholic. Death is universal. Death gets us all, and if death is the only ticket anyone needs into the reconciliation in Jesus and if everybody has that ticket, then God has no taste. God is vulgar. God is indiscriminate. God is immoral. He lets in Hitler because He forgives Hitler's sins. He does, in Jesus. He lets in my brother-in-law. He lets in me. He lets in you. All we have to do is believe it, not earn it.
     We have a God, in Jesus' proclamation, a God who couldn't get a union card in the God union, who couldn't make it because we have set up the rules for God. A God has to be a punisher; a God has to be a judge; a God has to be a respectable God. He has to do all the things that enforce morality, and God doesn't. On the cross, in Jesus, He drops dead to the whole subject of sin and shuts up about the whole subject of condemnation. It is over. As St. Paul says in the beginning of the 8th Chapter of Romans: "There is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."
     Therefore, this parable is about death and it is about the resurrection from the dead. The point is that death is all of the resurrection that we can know now. The most important thing is that we believe in Jesus. The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and they will live.
     I don't believe in resurrection. I don't believe in eternal life. I don't believe in life after death. I don't believe in the hereafter. Those are all opinions. I simply trust Jesus that He will deliver to me as He rose from the dead, He will raise me. Whatever that means, however it works, I trust Him because in His death is my reconciliation and in my reconciliation is my joy in Him.

Robert Capon, 1993

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The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« on: February 18, 2012, 06:04:25 AM »

daq

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 08:19:42 AM »
Luke 17:7-10 KJV
7. But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8. And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9. Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Luke 18:9-14 KJV
9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10. Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


The mind of the repentant Tax Collector or Publican:
"I will do all things commanded me YET still I am an unprofitable servant.
But a sinner am I that is forgiven: I do it because I love my Redeemer."
  ::smile::

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 08:19:42 AM »

daq

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 09:00:56 AM »
Exodus 22:1 KJV
1. If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.

2 Samuel 12:1-9 KJV
1. And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3. But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
5. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6. And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8. And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9. Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Luke 19:1-10 KJV
1. And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2. And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


And if that were all it should be enough to exemplify what true Grace produces in a person. However, we all know that Luke the beloved Doctor, (of the Law) penned the Gospel of Luke BEFORE he penned the Acts of the Apostles wherein he traveled with Paul.  ::smile::

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 09:00:56 AM »

Offline Gomer

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 11:31:14 AM »
From the essay in the op:

"The most important thing is that we believe in Jesus.....I don't believe in resurrection. I don't believe in eternal life. I don't believe in life after death. I don't believe in the hereafter. Those are all opinions. I simply trust Jesus that He will deliver to me as He rose from the dead, He will raise me."


Shazam.  Who's opinions? And why trust or believe in Jesus if there were no resurrection, no eternal life, no hereafter?  Didn't Jesus teach a resurrection, eternal life and a hereafter?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 11:42:47 AM by Gomer »

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 11:31:14 AM »

Offline Volkmar

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 07:34:12 PM »
From the essay in the op:

"The most important thing is that we believe in Jesus.....I don't believe in resurrection. I don't believe in eternal life. I don't believe in life after death. I don't believe in the hereafter. Those are all opinions. I simply trust Jesus that He will deliver to me as He rose from the dead, He will raise me."


Shazam.  Who's opinions? And why trust or believe in Jesus if there were no resurrection, no eternal life, no hereafter?  Didn't Jesus teach a resurrection, eternal life and a hereafter?


The point being, but this may be too subtle for some, is the object of faith a WHAT or a WHOM?

Many religions make claims as to resurrection, life after death, some reward in the hereafter -- all such claims are either promises or opinions because no one of us have ever stood up from physical death then told anything about it.

Jesus made claims and promises.  The verity of his claims was demonstrated in his resurrection.  However, no one can "prove" that he was resurrected.  Thus, our hope is by trusting in Jesus Christ, which by all natural measures is not "reasonable".

Shaaazzaaaammm.


V

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 07:34:12 PM »



Offline Volkmar

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 07:52:52 PM »
Exodus 22:1 KJV
1. If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.

2 Samuel 12:1-9 KJV
1. And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3. But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
5. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6. And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8. And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9. Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Luke 19:1-10 KJV
1. And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2. And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


And if that were all it should be enough to exemplify what true Grace produces in a person. However, we all know that Luke the beloved Doctor, (of the Law) penned the Gospel of Luke BEFORE he penned the Acts of the Apostles wherein he traveled with Paul::smile::


Jesus, in his parable of the Pharisee and the Sinner does not give us any hint or idea that the sinner ever reformed or intended to reform.  Reformation is not the issue, if it were then the Pharisee would have been commended not condemned.

Moral of the story; better a sinner who admits helplessness than a Religious bigot who refuses to acknowledge his own sin B.O. by pretending to not be helpless.



Jesus never predicated his presence in Zacchaeus' house upon Zacchaeus becoming an honest extortioner.  Salvation, in the Person of Jesus, came into Zacchaeus' house solely upon the initiative and choice of Jesus.  However, Jesus' unqualified acceptance of Zacchaeus did elicit what was apparently a heart felt response on Zacchaeus' part, which is well and good and much to be admired.

Your moralistic response is further proof of OldDad's assertion that too many Christians really don't like grace and will read that dislike into the Biblical text.



V

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 07:52:52 PM »

daq

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2012, 08:19:09 PM »
Exodus 22:1 KJV
1. If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.

2 Samuel 12:1-9 KJV
1. And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3. But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
5. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6. And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8. And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9. Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Luke 19:1-10 KJV
1. And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2. And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


And if that were all it should be enough to exemplify what true Grace produces in a person. However, we all know that Luke the beloved Doctor, (of the Law) penned the Gospel of Luke BEFORE he penned the Acts of the Apostles wherein he traveled with Paul::smile::


Jesus, in his parable of the Pharisee and the Sinner does not give us any hint or idea that the sinner ever reformed or intended to reform.  Reformation is not the issue, if it were then the Pharisee would have been commended not condemned.

Moral of the story; better a sinner who admits helplessness than a Religious bigot who refuses to acknowledge his own sin B.O. by pretending to not be helpless.



Jesus never predicated his presence in Zacchaeus' house upon Zacchaeus becoming an honest extortioner.  Salvation, in the Person of Jesus, came into Zacchaeus' house solely upon the initiative and choice of Jesus.  However, Jesus' unqualified acceptance of Zacchaeus did elicit what was apparently a heart felt response on Zacchaeus' part, which is well and good and much to be admired.

Your moralistic response is further proof of OldDad's assertion that too many Christians really don't like grace and will read that dislike into the Biblical text.



V

Paraphrased Yeshua said: "Zacchaeus today I must spend some time with you in your house" and the Pharisees were put off just like you because they had no clue about Grace. And that is because it was not YET added into the Law through the crucifixion of Christ and giving of himself. However, Zacchaeus the sinner fully understood it and it changed him from the inside out the moment he heard the words from the mouth of Christ. Perhaps the problem for you is too many books that do not say BIBLE on the cover and too many lectures, siminars, and commentaries from cemetary sectarian seminarian teachers who really do not have a clue about true Grace except for what they too have been taught. Perhaps you might consider discontinuing the scapegoat diet and opt for the spotless Passover Lamb.  ::smile::

Offline Consumingfire

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2012, 10:30:28 PM »
From the essay in the op:

"The most important thing is that we believe in Jesus.....I don't believe in resurrection. I don't believe in eternal life. I don't believe in life after death. I don't believe in the hereafter. Those are all opinions. I simply trust Jesus that He will deliver to me as He rose from the dead, He will raise me."


Shazam.  Who's opinions? And why trust or believe in Jesus if there were no resurrection, no eternal life, no hereafter?  Didn't Jesus teach a resurrection, eternal life and a hereafter?


The point being, but this may be too subtle for some, is the object of faith a WHAT or a WHOM?

Many religions make claims as to resurrection, life after death, some reward in the hereafter -- all such claims are either promises or opinions because no one of us have ever stood up from physical death then told anything about it.

Jesus made claims and promises.  The verity of his claims was demonstrated in his resurrection.  However, no one can "prove" that he was resurrected.  Thus, our hope is by trusting in Jesus Christ, which by all natural measures is not "reasonable".

Shaaazzaaaammm.


V
Faith is a continuous, never-ending obedience.

Offline Volkmar

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 06:51:37 AM »
From the essay in the op:

"The most important thing is that we believe in Jesus.....I don't believe in resurrection. I don't believe in eternal life. I don't believe in life after death. I don't believe in the hereafter. Those are all opinions. I simply trust Jesus that He will deliver to me as He rose from the dead, He will raise me."


Shazam.  Who's opinions? And why trust or believe in Jesus if there were no resurrection, no eternal life, no hereafter?  Didn't Jesus teach a resurrection, eternal life and a hereafter?


The point being, but this may be too subtle for some, is the object of faith a WHAT or a WHOM?

Many religions make claims as to resurrection, life after death, some reward in the hereafter -- all such claims are either promises or opinions because no one of us have ever stood up from physical death then told anything about it.

Jesus made claims and promises.  The verity of his claims was demonstrated in his resurrection.  However, no one can "prove" that he was resurrected.  Thus, our hope is by trusting in Jesus Christ, which by all natural measures is not "reasonable".

Shaaazzaaaammm.


V
Faith is a continuous, never-ending obedience.

Faith never excludes obedience, but obedience never earns grace.

V

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 06:51:37 AM »

Offline Volkmar

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 06:57:31 AM »
Exodus 22:1 KJV
1. If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.

2 Samuel 12:1-9 KJV
1. And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3. But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
5. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6. And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8. And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9. Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Luke 19:1-10 KJV
1. And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2. And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


And if that were all it should be enough to exemplify what true Grace produces in a person. However, we all know that Luke the beloved Doctor, (of the Law) penned the Gospel of Luke BEFORE he penned the Acts of the Apostles wherein he traveled with Paul::smile::


Jesus, in his parable of the Pharisee and the Sinner does not give us any hint or idea that the sinner ever reformed or intended to reform.  Reformation is not the issue, if it were then the Pharisee would have been commended not condemned.

Moral of the story; better a sinner who admits helplessness than a Religious bigot who refuses to acknowledge his own sin B.O. by pretending to not be helpless.



Jesus never predicated his presence in Zacchaeus' house upon Zacchaeus becoming an honest extortioner.  Salvation, in the Person of Jesus, came into Zacchaeus' house solely upon the initiative and choice of Jesus.  However, Jesus' unqualified acceptance of Zacchaeus did elicit what was apparently a heart felt response on Zacchaeus' part, which is well and good and much to be admired.

Your moralistic response is further proof of OldDad's assertion that too many Christians really don't like grace and will read that dislike into the Biblical text.



V

Paraphrased Yeshua said: "Zacchaeus today I must spend some time with you in your house" and the Pharisees were put off just like you because they had no clue about Grace. And that is because it was not YET added into the Law through the crucifixion of Christ and giving of himself. However, Zacchaeus the sinner fully understood it and it changed him from the inside out the moment he heard the words from the mouth of Christ. Perhaps the problem for you is too many books that do not say BIBLE on the cover and too many lectures, siminars, and commentaries from cemetery sectarian seminarian teachers who really do not have a clue about true Grace except for what they too have been taught. Perhaps you might consider discontinuing the scapegoat diet and opt for the spotless Passover Lamb.  ::smile::


"Grace not YET added into the Law"?  Scratchin' my head....

<snap!>

Spoken like a true Pharisee!

Grace is predicated upon reformation?  You continue to think that?  If so, then you continue to kill the Paschal Lamb.


V

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 06:57:31 AM »

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 07:17:47 AM »
From the essay in the op:

"The most important thing is that we believe in Jesus.....I don't believe in resurrection. I don't believe in eternal life. I don't believe in life after death. I don't believe in the hereafter. Those are all opinions. I simply trust Jesus that He will deliver to me as He rose from the dead, He will raise me."


Shazam.  Who's opinions? And why trust or believe in Jesus if there were no resurrection, no eternal life, no hereafter?  Didn't Jesus teach a resurrection, eternal life and a hereafter?


The point being, but this may be too subtle for some, is the object of faith a WHAT or a WHOM?

Many religions make claims as to resurrection, life after death, some reward in the hereafter -- all such claims are either promises or opinions because no one of us have ever stood up from physical death then told anything about it.

Jesus made claims and promises.  The verity of his claims was demonstrated in his resurrection.  However, no one can "prove" that he was resurrected.  Thus, our hope is by trusting in Jesus Christ, which by all natural measures is not "reasonable".

Shaaazzaaaammm.


V
Faith is a continuous, never-ending obedience.

Ummm, no. Faith is a continuous receptivity to the activity of the living Christ, which is our obedience of faith.


Offline Volkmar

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2012, 07:48:03 AM »
Quote from: ChristNU
Faith is a continuous receptivity to the activity of the living Christ, which is our obedience of faith.


Very good!


V


daq

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2012, 08:09:16 AM »
Exodus 22:1 KJV
1. If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.

2 Samuel 12:1-9 KJV
1. And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3. But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
5. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6. And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8. And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9. Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Luke 19:1-10 KJV
1. And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2. And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


And if that were all it should be enough to exemplify what true Grace produces in a person. However, we all know that Luke the beloved Doctor, (of the Law) penned the Gospel of Luke BEFORE he penned the Acts of the Apostles wherein he traveled with Paul::smile::


Jesus, in his parable of the Pharisee and the Sinner does not give us any hint or idea that the sinner ever reformed or intended to reform.  Reformation is not the issue, if it were then the Pharisee would have been commended not condemned.

Moral of the story; better a sinner who admits helplessness than a Religious bigot who refuses to acknowledge his own sin B.O. by pretending to not be helpless.



Jesus never predicated his presence in Zacchaeus' house upon Zacchaeus becoming an honest extortioner.  Salvation, in the Person of Jesus, came into Zacchaeus' house solely upon the initiative and choice of Jesus.  However, Jesus' unqualified acceptance of Zacchaeus did elicit what was apparently a heart felt response on Zacchaeus' part, which is well and good and much to be admired.

Your moralistic response is further proof of OldDad's assertion that too many Christians really don't like grace and will read that dislike into the Biblical text.



V

Paraphrased Yeshua said: "Zacchaeus today I must spend some time with you in your house" and the Pharisees were put off just like you because they had no clue about Grace. And that is because it was not YET added into the Law through the crucifixion of Christ and giving of himself. However, Zacchaeus the sinner fully understood it and it changed him from the inside out the moment he heard the words from the mouth of Christ. Perhaps the problem for you is too many books that do not say BIBLE on the cover and too many lectures, siminars, and commentaries from cemetery sectarian seminarian teachers who really do not have a clue about true Grace except for what they too have been taught. Perhaps you might consider discontinuing the scapegoat diet and opt for the spotless Passover Lamb.  ::smile::


"Grace not YET added into the Law"?  Scratchin' my head....

<snap!>

Spoken like a true Pharisee!

Grace is predicated upon reformation?  You continue to think that?  If so, then you continue to kill the Paschal Lamb.


V

Grace was added when Yeshua replaced the Pesach Lamb with himself. For this reason he is our "manna" which came down from heaven, our "shewbread" of life, our spiritual meat and holy food: yet one has to partake of that bread of life if he will live. To partake of the Passover Lamb is not to crucify him all over again. In accusing me of such a thing you also accuse Paul and the Scripture:

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 KJV
6. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


And of course mercy and faith were already in the Law:

Matthew 23:23-24 KJV
23. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.


Perhaps if you had ever truly been a slave to sin you might understand just as Zacchaeus and other chief sinners and fornicators like as was my former self. Those who know that they are slaves to sin are generally those willing to trade out that slavery to become slaves of Christ and to be put under his yoke because it is the difference between night and day, from death into life by true grace, and it is indeed the free gift of YHWH through his Son. However, the true and hardened hearted Pharisee will never fully understand grace because he will never see himself as being, or having been, a slave to sin. Thus it is you who actually speak exactly as the Pharisee and not myself because you do not appear to even understand what it is you have been saved out from; and perhaps that is because you have never seen yourself as a slave to sin; for if you had, you would be willing to become a slave to Christ and all of his doctrine including Torah. To whom little is forgiven; the same loves only a little, and that one does not know true grace.

Luke 7:40-47 KJV
40. And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
41. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43. Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44. And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

John 14:15 KJV
15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.


The very Spirit of Grace is who and what purchased me with his own blood.

Offline Gomer

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2012, 08:09:39 AM »
From the essay in the op:

"The most important thing is that we believe in Jesus.....I don't believe in resurrection. I don't believe in eternal life. I don't believe in life after death. I don't believe in the hereafter. Those are all opinions. I simply trust Jesus that He will deliver to me as He rose from the dead, He will raise me."


Shazam.  Who's opinions? And why trust or believe in Jesus if there were no resurrection, no eternal life, no hereafter?  Didn't Jesus teach a resurrection, eternal life and a hereafter?


The point being, but this may be too subtle for some, is the object of faith a WHAT or a WHOM?

Many religions make claims as to resurrection, life after death, some reward in the hereafter -- all such claims are either promises or opinions because no one of us have ever stood up from physical death then told anything about it.

Jesus made claims and promises.  The verity of his claims was demonstrated in his resurrection.  However, no one can "prove" that he was resurrected.  Thus, our hope is by trusting in Jesus Christ, which by all natural measures is not "reasonable".

Shaaazzaaaammm.


V

Salvation takes more than just a mental acknowledgment of a "whom", the devils know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, MT 8:29, they believe and tremble, James 2:19, but they are not saved.  Salvation requires beleiving the words of Christ and believing His words means doing them, faith in Christ means faith in His words:

Lk 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Jn 6:63 " It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life."

Jn 12:47,48 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Jn 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. "

Jn 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."

Mt 7:24,26 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:.....And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:"

 James 1:23 "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:"

James 1:21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. "




Jesus words requires one to believe, repent, confess and be baptized for salvation, Jn 3:16; lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16 and those that "believe in Jesus" will DO His sayings/keep His words.




daq

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Re: The Pharisee and the Tax Collector and Why We Don't Like Grace
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 11:25:24 AM »
Paraphrased Yeshua said: "Zacchaeus today I must spend some time with you in your house" and the Pharisees were put off just like you because they had no clue about Grace. And that is because it was not YET added into the Law through the crucifixion of Christ and giving of himself. However, Zacchaeus the sinner fully understood it and it changed him from the inside out the moment he heard the words from the mouth of Christ. Perhaps the problem for you is too many books that do not say BIBLE on the cover and too many lectures, siminars, and commentaries from cemetery sectarian seminarian teachers who really do not have a clue about true Grace except for what they too have been taught. Perhaps you might consider discontinuing the scapegoat diet and opt for the spotless Passover Lamb.  ::smile::


"Grace not YET added into the Law"?  Scratchin' my head....

<snap!>

Spoken like a true Pharisee!

Grace is predicated upon reformation?  You continue to think that?  If so, then you continue to kill the Paschal Lamb.


V

Grace was added to the Law by and through Christ in the giving of his body and himself. He not only went to the Cross in our place but took the place of the Passover Lamb so that we may partake of that holy food which came down from heaven. MERCY and FAITH were already included in Torah as shown above in the statement from Matthew 23:23 concerning the "weightier matters of the Law" which the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes had left undone:

Matthew 23:23 KJV
23. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Grace does not replace Torah but was ADDED into Torah ~

John 1:17 LIT (Literal Bible w/vertical Strong's Ref. #'s)
17.
   |3754| because
   |3588| the
   |3551| - [law]
   |1223| through
   |3475| Moses
   |1325| was given,
   |5485| gracious love
   |2532| and
   |0225| truth
   |1223| through
   |2424| Jesus
   |5547| Christ
   |1096| came into being.


The LIT Bible agrees word for word with the Greek TUA (GNT Morph Texts).

John 1:17 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
17. Hoti ho nomos dia Mouseos edothe, he charis kai he aletheia dia Iesou Christou egeneto.
17. Because the law through Moses was given; the gracious-love and the truth through Yeshua Christou came into being.


In other words:
WITHOUT THE LAW THERE IS NO RECORD OF THE GRACE RENDERED because if transgression cannot first be proven through law and commandments than neither can grace or "forgiveness" be fully known to have been rendered even though, all the while, grace and mercy may have indeed been rendered. Thus, Noah did find grace and likewise Abraham believed the Word spoken to him, by faith, toward the imputing of righteousness to his account: yet neither of them saw the complete fulfillment of the promise until Christ gave himself; which is the doron-offering-sacrificial gift of YHWH.

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift (GSN#1435 doron) of God:

Ephesians 2:8 LIT
8.
   |1063| For
   |5485| by gracious love
   |2075| you are
   |4982| saved,
   |1223| through
   |4102| faith,
   |2532| and
   |5124| this
   |3756| not
   |1537| of
   |5216| you,
   |2316| of God
   |9999| {is}
   |3588| the
   |1435| gift.


Original Strong's Ref. #1435
Romanized  doron
Pronounced do'-ron
a present; specially, a sacrifice:
KJV--gift, offering.

Ephesians 2:8 TUA
8. Te gar chariti este sesosmenoi dia pisteos, kai touto ouk ex humon, Theou to doron,
8. For by gracious-love you are [being - having been]-saved through faith; and this is not out from yourselves: [of] Theou [is] the doron-offering-sacrifice-gift.


If one can truly see the impact and depth of the statement above then he or she will eventually come to understand by the Word that PARTICIPATION in the holy food offering of the altar is still required in the New Covenant; and that freewill-gift-offering is of course Yeshua himself; our Passover, voluntary freewill offering, Nazarite vow offering, (and his prayers were answered) and sacrifice of peace offerings. And to partake of the offerings of the altar one needs to be either natural born or purchased by a priest if he was formerly a stranger. And then to partake of the holy offerings one must first wash himself or herself, (through the water of the Word) and must have clean garments.

The true Pharisees of today still quote just about anythingfrom anyone who agrees with them except when it comes to the words, doctrines, and parables of Christ. They quote from their modern versions of Talmud, Targumim-paraphrases, church historians, church book authors, church pastors, church teachers, church lecturers, and church fathers, which are all their own fathers of their own traditions just the same today as it was two thousand years ago. Yet the words of Christ from the four Gospel accounts they do not understand, nor do they desire to understand, because it would require a complete change of mindset and behavior.  ::smile::