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Offline ChristNU

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The Grace Killers
« on: Sat Feb 18, 2012 - 14:24:57 »


"The moralizing and legalizing of the Gospel of God's grace is a dull heresy peddled to disappointed people who are angry because they have not received what they had no good reason to expect." -RICHARD J. NEUHAUS


THERE ARE KILLERS ON THE LOOSE TODAY. The problem is that you can't tell by looking. They don't wear little buttons that give away their identity, nor do they carry signs warning everybody to stay away. On the contrary, a lot of them carry Bibles and appear to be clean-living, nice-looking, law-abiding citizens. Most of they spend a lot of time in churches, some in places of religious leadership. Many are so respected in the community, their neighbors would never guess they are living next-door to killers.

They kill freedom, spontaneity, and creativity; they kill joy as well as productivity. They kill with their words and their pens and their looks. They kill with their attitudes far more often than their behavior. There is hardly a church or Christian organization or Christian school or missionary group or media ministry where such danger does not lurk. The amazing thing is that they get away with it, day in and day out, without being confronted or exposed. Strangely, the same ministries that would not tolerate heresy for ten minutes will step aside and allow these killers all the space they need to maneuver and manipulate others in the most insidious manner imaginable. Their intolerance is tolerated. Their judgmental spirits remain unjudged. Their bullying tactics continue unchecked, And their narrow-mindedness is explained away or quickly defended. The bondage that results would be criminal were it not so subtle and wrapped in such spiritual-sounding garb.

This day - this very moment - millions who should be free, productive individuals are living in shame, fear, and intimidation. The tragedy is they think it is the way they should be. They have never known the truth that could set them free. They are victimized, existing as if they are living on death row instead of enjoying the beauty and fresh air of the abundant life Christ modeled and made possible for all of His followers to claim. Unfortunately, most don't have a clue about what they are missing.

That whole package, in a word, is Grace. That's what is being assaulted so continually, so violently. Those who aren't comfortable denying it have decided to debate it. Similar to the days of the Protestant Reformation, grace has again become a theological football kicked from one end of the field to the other as theologians and preachers, scholars and students argue over terms like frustrated coaches on opposite sides trying to gain advantage over each other. It is a classic no-win debate that trivializes the issue and leaves the masses who watch the fight from the stands confused, polarized, or, worst of all, bored. Grace was meant to be received and lived out to the fullest, not dissected and analyzed by those who would rather argue than eat. Enough of this! Grace must be awakened and released, not denied ... enjoyed and freely given, not debated. Grace received but unexpressed is dead grace. To spend one's time debating how grace is received or how much commitment is necessary for salvation, without getting into what it means to live by grace and enjoy the magnificent freedom it provides, quickly leads to a counterproductive argument. It becomes little more than another tedious trivial pursuit where the majority of God's people spend days looking back and asking, "How did we receive it?" instead of looking ahead and announcing, "Grace is ours ... Let's live it!" Deny it or debate it, and we kill it. My plea is that we claim it and allow it to set us free. When we do, grace will become what it was meant to be - really amazing! When that happens, our whole countenance changes.



Charles R. Swindoll. The Grace Awakening: Believing in Grace is One Thing. Living it is Another.

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The Grace Killers
« on: Sat Feb 18, 2012 - 14:24:57 »

daq

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #1 on: Sat Feb 18, 2012 - 15:04:30 »
That is somewhat of a breath of fresh air!  ::smile::

However, it is not possible to kill the Spirit of Grace any more than it is possible to kill the Spirit of Torah, (though many attempt to abolish Him from their minds). They are One and the same:

Hebrews 10:29 KJV
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


::smile::

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #1 on: Sat Feb 18, 2012 - 15:04:30 »

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #2 on: Sat Feb 18, 2012 - 21:14:11 »
That is somewhat of a breath of fresh air!  ::smile::

However, it is not possible to kill the Spirit of Grace any more than it is possible to kill the Spirit of Torah, (though many attempt to abolish Him from their minds). They are One and the same:

Hebrews 10:29 KJV
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


::smile::

Somewhat of a breath of fresh air is better than none, no?

What is possible and all too prevalent is the many who would try to kill the Spirit of Grace, and who sadly would think they were doing Gods work by doing so.




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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #2 on: Sat Feb 18, 2012 - 21:14:11 »

Offline Consumingfire

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #3 on: Sat Feb 18, 2012 - 23:39:27 »
That is somewhat of a breath of fresh air!  ::smile::

However, it is not possible to kill the Spirit of Grace any more than it is possible to kill the Spirit of Torah, (though many attempt to abolish Him from their minds). They are One and the same:

Hebrews 10:29 KJV
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


::smile::

Somewhat of a breath of fresh air is better than none, no?

What is possible and all too prevalent is the many who would try to kill the Spirit of Grace, and who sadly would think they were doing Gods work by doing so.




Many times it is from an overreaction to those that are trying kill the spirit of Torah.  You see, niether one was supposed to be killed.  Many times grace is not even being attacked but people feel like defending the Torah is an implied attack on grace.  In actuality, the grace and perfect nature of Yeshua is being defended by the Torah.

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #3 on: Sat Feb 18, 2012 - 23:39:27 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #4 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 07:31:43 »
That is somewhat of a breath of fresh air!  ::smile::

However, it is not possible to kill the Spirit of Grace any more than it is possible to kill the Spirit of Torah, (though many attempt to abolish Him from their minds). They are One and the same:

Hebrews 10:29 KJV
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


::smile::

Somewhat of a breath of fresh air is better than none, no?

What is possible and all too prevalent is the many who would try to kill the Spirit of Grace, and who sadly would think they were doing Gods work by doing so.

Many times it is from an overreaction to those that are trying kill the spirit of Torah.  You see, niether one was supposed to be killed.  Many times grace is not even being attacked but people feel like defending the Torah is an implied attack on grace.  In actuality, the grace and perfect nature of Yeshua is being defended by the Torah.

The manifestation of God's Love is the fulfillment of the Law (Rom. 13:10). The requirement of the Law is fulfilled in Christians who walk according to the Spirit, as the character of God is expressed in our behavior by the grace of God, by the life of Jesus Christ lived out through us. The external behavioral conformity to the Law’s demands is displaced and replaced by the internality of the presence of Jesus Himself, “the Law written in our hearts

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #4 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 07:31:43 »



thethinker

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #5 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 10:40:14 »
That is somewhat of a breath of fresh air!  ::smile::

However, it is not possible to kill the Spirit of Grace any more than it is possible to kill the Spirit of Torah, (though many attempt to abolish Him from their minds). They are One and the same:

Hebrews 10:29 KJV
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


::smile::

Somewhat of a breath of fresh air is better than none, no?

What is possible and all too prevalent is the many who would try to kill the Spirit of Grace, and who sadly would think they were doing Gods work by doing so.




Many times it is from an overreaction to those that are trying kill the spirit of Torah.  You see, niether one was supposed to be killed.  Many times grace is not even being attacked but people feel like defending the Torah is an implied attack on grace.  In actuality, the grace and perfect nature of Yeshua is being defended by the Torah.

Paul said that the law written on the tablets of stone is the "administration of DEATH" (2 Corinthians 3:7). He said that salvation is "APART from the law" (Romans 3:21).

Paul was Christ's chosen vessel so if he says the law is death then it's death. If he says that salvation is apart from the law then it is apart from the law.

One ought not argue with Paul.

thinker

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #5 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 10:40:14 »

Amo

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #6 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 12:09:26 »
The meaning of grace is pretty simple to understand.  How one applies or relates it to this or that doctrine of their denomination is where the difficulties begin.  Grace is the unmerited favor of God which began as soon as humanity sinned against God, and was planned long long before.  Now how that grace relates to the scriptural teachings is where so much difficulty arises. 

The bottom line though, is that one searches these things out for themselves through prayerful study of the word of God.  A relationship with God cannot be maintained without doing so, if one has the opportunity of course, and does not take advantage of it.  If all you are doing is listening to what others are saying without studying the source for yourself, it will not likely matter in the end who you chose to believe, if it has been anyone other than God Himself, through the prayerful study of His written word.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #7 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 13:20:25 »


"The moralizing and legalizing of the Gospel of God's grace is a dull heresy peddled to disappointed people who are angry because they have not received what they had no good reason to expect." -RICHARD J. NEUHAUS


THERE ARE KILLERS ON THE LOOSE TODAY. The problem is that you can't tell by looking. They don't wear little buttons that give away their identity, nor do they carry signs warning everybody to stay away. On the contrary, a lot of them carry Bibles and appear to be clean-living, nice-looking, law-abiding citizens. Most of they spend a lot of time in churches, some in places of religious leadership. Many are so respected in the community, their neighbors would never guess they are living next-door to killers.

They kill freedom, spontaneity, and creativity; they kill joy as well as productivity. They kill with their words and their pens and their looks. They kill with their attitudes far more often than their behavior. There is hardly a church or Christian organization or Christian school or missionary group or media ministry where such danger does not lurk. The amazing thing is that they get away with it, day in and day out, without being confronted or exposed. Strangely, the same ministries that would not tolerate heresy for ten minutes will step aside and allow these killers all the space they need to maneuver and manipulate others in the most insidious manner imaginable. Their intolerance is tolerated. Their judgmental spirits remain unjudged. Their bullying tactics continue unchecked, And their narrow-mindedness is explained away or quickly defended. The bondage that results would be criminal were it not so subtle and wrapped in such spiritual-sounding garb.

This day - this very moment - millions who should be free, productive individuals are living in shame, fear, and intimidation. The tragedy is they think it is the way they should be. They have never known the truth that could set them free. They are victimized, existing as if they are living on death row instead of enjoying the beauty and fresh air of the abundant life Christ modeled and made possible for all of His followers to claim. Unfortunately, most don't have a clue about what they are missing.

That whole package, in a word, is Grace. That's what is being assaulted so continually, so violently. Those who aren't comfortable denying it have decided to debate it. Similar to the days of the Protestant Reformation, grace has again become a theological football kicked from one end of the field to the other as theologians and preachers, scholars and students argue over terms like frustrated coaches on opposite sides trying to gain advantage over each other. It is a classic no-win debate that trivializes the issue and leaves the masses who watch the fight from the stands confused, polarized, or, worst of all, bored. Grace was meant to be received and lived out to the fullest, not dissected and analyzed by those who would rather argue than eat. Enough of this! Grace must be awakened and released, not denied ... enjoyed and freely given, not debated. Grace received but unexpressed is dead grace. To spend one's time debating how grace is received or how much commitment is necessary for salvation, without getting into what it means to live by grace and enjoy the magnificent freedom it provides, quickly leads to a counterproductive argument. It becomes little more than another tedious trivial pursuit where the majority of God's people spend days looking back and asking, "How did we receive it?" instead of looking ahead and announcing, "Grace is ours ... Let's live it!" Deny it or debate it, and we kill it. My plea is that we claim it and allow it to set us free. When we do, grace will become what it was meant to be - really amazing! When that happens, our whole countenance changes.



Charles R. Swindoll. The Grace Awakening: Believing in Grace is One Thing. Living it is Another.



There is a "Grace"  teaching that is going around that is unscriptural.
It teaches that you can live as you want and God will still bless you, Because it is all by grace and not how we live.
And.
You can live as you want and God will still use you, Because it is all by grace and not by how we live.

I saw one grace Minister put Acts 20: 32, on a screen.
"I commend you to God and the word of His grace whicj is able to build you up anf give you an inheritance".

And that all he put on the screen.

He diliberatley left out,
"Among them who are SANCTIFIED".

Another one siad,
"God gives grace and glory, No good gift will He withhold" Ps 84: 11.

He left out,
"From them who walk UPRIGHTLY".

Not to many people know what true grace is.

It is the flesh that sees Gods freely given Grace as a license to sin, just as it is the spirit that rejoices in the freedom from sin that only grace can produce in a Christian.


Offline Consumingfire

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #8 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 00:52:11 »
That is somewhat of a breath of fresh air!  ::smile::

However, it is not possible to kill the Spirit of Grace any more than it is possible to kill the Spirit of Torah, (though many attempt to abolish Him from their minds). They are One and the same:

Hebrews 10:29 KJV
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


::smile::

Somewhat of a breath of fresh air is better than none, no?

What is possible and all too prevalent is the many who would try to kill the Spirit of Grace, and who sadly would think they were doing Gods work by doing so.

Many times it is from an overreaction to those that are trying kill the spirit of Torah.  You see, niether one was supposed to be killed.  Many times grace is not even being attacked but people feel like defending the Torah is an implied attack on grace.  In actuality, the grace and perfect nature of Yeshua is being defended by the Torah.

The manifestation of God's Love is the fulfillment of the Law (Rom. 13:10). The requirement of the Law is fulfilled in Christians who walk according to the Spirit, as the character of God is expressed in our behavior by the grace of God, by the life of Jesus Christ lived out through us. The external behavioral conformity to the Law’s demands is displaced and replaced by the internality of the presence of Jesus Himself, “the Law written in our hearts

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #8 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 00:52:11 »

Offline Volkmar

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #9 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 06:37:39 »


"The moralizing and legalizing of the Gospel of God's grace is a dull heresy peddled to disappointed people who are angry because they have not received what they had no good reason to expect." -RICHARD J. NEUHAUS


THERE ARE KILLERS ON THE LOOSE TODAY. The problem is that you can't tell by looking. They don't wear little buttons that give away their identity, nor do they carry signs warning everybody to stay away. On the contrary, a lot of them carry Bibles and appear to be clean-living, nice-looking, law-abiding citizens. Most of they spend a lot of time in churches, some in places of religious leadership. Many are so respected in the community, their neighbors would never guess they are living next-door to killers.

They kill freedom, spontaneity, and creativity; they kill joy as well as productivity. They kill with their words and their pens and their looks. They kill with their attitudes far more often than their behavior. There is hardly a church or Christian organization or Christian school or missionary group or media ministry where such danger does not lurk. The amazing thing is that they get away with it, day in and day out, without being confronted or exposed. Strangely, the same ministries that would not tolerate heresy for ten minutes will step aside and allow these killers all the space they need to maneuver and manipulate others in the most insidious manner imaginable. Their intolerance is tolerated. Their judgmental spirits remain unjudged. Their bullying tactics continue unchecked, And their narrow-mindedness is explained away or quickly defended. The bondage that results would be criminal were it not so subtle and wrapped in such spiritual-sounding garb.

This day - this very moment - millions who should be free, productive individuals are living in shame, fear, and intimidation. The tragedy is they think it is the way they should be. They have never known the truth that could set them free. They are victimized, existing as if they are living on death row instead of enjoying the beauty and fresh air of the abundant life Christ modeled and made possible for all of His followers to claim. Unfortunately, most don't have a clue about what they are missing.

That whole package, in a word, is Grace. That's what is being assaulted so continually, so violently. Those who aren't comfortable denying it have decided to debate it. Similar to the days of the Protestant Reformation, grace has again become a theological football kicked from one end of the field to the other as theologians and preachers, scholars and students argue over terms like frustrated coaches on opposite sides trying to gain advantage over each other. It is a classic no-win debate that trivializes the issue and leaves the masses who watch the fight from the stands confused, polarized, or, worst of all, bored. Grace was meant to be received and lived out to the fullest, not dissected and analyzed by those who would rather argue than eat. Enough of this! Grace must be awakened and released, not denied ... enjoyed and freely given, not debated. Grace received but unexpressed is dead grace. To spend one's time debating how grace is received or how much commitment is necessary for salvation, without getting into what it means to live by grace and enjoy the magnificent freedom it provides, quickly leads to a counterproductive argument. It becomes little more than another tedious trivial pursuit where the majority of God's people spend days looking back and asking, "How did we receive it?" instead of looking ahead and announcing, "Grace is ours ... Let's live it!" Deny it or debate it, and we kill it. My plea is that we claim it and allow it to set us free. When we do, grace will become what it was meant to be - really amazing! When that happens, our whole countenance changes.



Charles R. Swindoll. The Grace Awakening: Believing in Grace is One Thing. Living it is Another.


I love Neuhaus.  Downcast when he died last year (or was it the year before?).  Some RC's get it so right, especially those that begin as Lutherans ;o)

Here's a corollary:

Quote
Faith does not assert claims; faith receives the gift that is undeserved.
 
                         Richard John Neuhaus
   



V

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #10 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 07:27:31 »
That is somewhat of a breath of fresh air!  ::smile::

However, it is not possible to kill the Spirit of Grace any more than it is possible to kill the Spirit of Torah, (though many attempt to abolish Him from their minds). They are One and the same:

Hebrews 10:29 KJV
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


::smile::

Somewhat of a breath of fresh air is better than none, no?

What is possible and all too prevalent is the many who would try to kill the Spirit of Grace, and who sadly would think they were doing Gods work by doing so.

Many times it is from an overreaction to those that are trying kill the spirit of Torah.  You see, niether one was supposed to be killed.  Many times grace is not even being attacked but people feel like defending the Torah is an implied attack on grace.  In actuality, the grace and perfect nature of Yeshua is being defended by the Torah.

The manifestation of God's Love is the fulfillment of the Law (Rom. 13:10). The requirement of the Law is fulfilled in Christians who walk according to the Spirit, as the character of God is expressed in our behavior by the grace of God, by the life of Jesus Christ lived out through us. The external behavioral conformity to the Law’s demands is displaced and replaced by the internality of the presence of Jesus Himself, “the Law written in our hearts

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #11 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 07:59:39 »
Fulfillment means simply that Jesus paid the debt demanded by our disobedience. In doing that some aspects of the law such as those dealing with the sacrifices, etc., were made to be no longer applicable.  However, that did not affect many of the moral features of the law. 

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #12 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:07:24 »
Fulfillment means simply that Jesus paid the debt demanded by our disobedience. In doing that some aspects of the law such as those dealing with the sacrifices, etc., were made to be no longer applicable.  However, that did not affect many of the moral features of the law. 

Would "coveting" be one of those moral "features" of the written law that Jesus doesn't fulfill?


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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #13 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:17:44 »
Ah yes - the "parsing" of Law - the artificial dividing up of Law into categories, so that some Law can be ignored, and we can cherry pick from among the remainder.

After all who wants to be forbidden to trim their sideburns or forced to wear only one type of fabric at a time? 

Trouble is, Law is never divided that way in Scripture. Ceremonial and moral Law exists side by side, in the same verses even, and on at least two occasions in the NT, we are told that to subject ourselves to one part of Law obligates us to keep the whole Law.

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #14 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:23:09 »
Fulfillment means simply that Jesus paid the debt demanded by our disobedience. In doing that some aspects of the law such as those dealing with the sacrifices, etc., were made to be no longer applicable.  However, that did not affect many of the moral features of the law. 

Would "coveting" be one of those moral "features" of the written law that Jesus doesn't fulfill?



Does being saved stop you from coveting?

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #15 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:26:53 »
Ah yes - the "parsing" of Law - the artificial dividing up of Law into categories, so that some Law can be ignored, and we can cherry pick from among the remainder.

After all who wants to be forbidden to trim their sideburns or forced to wear only one type of fabric at a time? 

Trouble is, Law is never divided that way in Scripture. Ceremonial and moral Law exists side by side, in the same verses even, and on at least two occasions in the NT, we are told that to subject ourselves to one part of Law obligates us to keep the whole Law.

Exactly. They categorize the Law based on an agenda of presuppositions. They slice and dice the Law, applying what works for them in one instance and discarding what does not work in another.

If you want to be under the Law, scripture is clear, then you are under all of the Law - and to fail in just one point is to fail in it all - and the penalty for failure is the same today as it has always been...


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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #16 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:28:56 »
No one was ever saved by the Law even in the OT.

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #17 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:36:29 »
Fulfillment means simply that Jesus paid the debt demanded by our disobedience. In doing that some aspects of the law such as those dealing with the sacrifices, etc., were made to be no longer applicable.  However, that did not affect many of the moral features of the law. 

Would "coveting" be one of those moral "features" of the written law that Jesus doesn't fulfill


Does being saved stop you from coveting?

The point is, Jimmy, that you are going to have to reconcile your belief in the continuation of the "moral features" of the law with Romans 7:6-7. Where Paul specifically lists "coveting" one of the "big ten" moral "features" of the law, as that which those in Christ have died to and been released from, "so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."



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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #18 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:41:47 »
I have one related question, not totally tangential. Did God create a marriage contract, the 10 commandments, that was impossible for his bride the nation of Israel to keep? Did he set them up to fail? I think not.

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #19 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:47:36 »
I have one related question, not totally tangential. Did God create a marriage contract, the 10 commandments, that was impossible for his bride the nation of Israel to keep? Did he set them up to fail? I think not.

There never was a "vital" purpose to the law. They set themselves up.



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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #20 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:49:30 »
Ah yes - the "parsing" of Law - the artificial dividing up of Law into categories, so that some Law can be ignored, and we can cherry pick from among the remainder.

After all who wants to be forbidden to trim their sideburns or forced to wear only one type of fabric at a time? 

Trouble is, Law is never divided that way in Scripture. Ceremonial and moral Law exists side by side, in the same verses even, and on at least two occasions in the NT, we are told that to subject ourselves to one part of Law obligates us to keep the whole Law.

Thank you much for that observation OldDad and it is spot-on!

Deuteronomy 25:4 KJV
4. Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

1 Corinthians 9:8-10 KJV
8. Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9. For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10. Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 KJV
17. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Better start getting to know the Spirit of Torah ...
 ::smile::

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #21 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:51:11 »
I have one related question, not totally tangential. Did God create a marriage contract, the 10 commandments, that was impossible for his bride the nation of Israel to keep? Did he set them up to fail? I think not.

There never was a "vital" purpose to the law. They set themselves up.


How so? Wasn't the purpose of the Law to define and point out sin? Seems pretty vital. Plus I have always heard that no man could keep the Law. So God set them up to fail? Or could it be that God was ALWAYS after the Spirit of the Law. Jesus did spend a lot of time propertly interpretting the Law, that they had perverted, to them in the Sermon on the Mount, after he succinctly stated he did not come to abolish it. His fulfilling was filling up the Law, that had been emptied or effectively abolished by the Pharisees.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:58:34 by Jaime »

Offline OldDad

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #22 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 08:58:03 »
In a sense, yes - he set them up to learn the futility of attempting to be made right with God by keeping Law. He set them up to learn that what was needed was not legal observation, but messiah, a rescuer, a savior.

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #23 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:00:45 »
In a sense, yes - he set them up to learn the futility of attempting to be made right with God by keeping Law. He set them up to learn that what was needed was not legal observation, but messiah, a rescuer, a savior.

Messiah came to properly interpret or fulfill. Spirit vs letter. I don't believe God was EVER about the letter vs spirit.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #24 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:02:14 »
I have one related question, not totally tangential. Did God create a marriage contract, the 10 commandments, that was impossible for his bride the nation of Israel to keep? Did he set them up to fail? I think not.

There never was a "vital" purpose to the law. They set themselves up.


How so? Wasn't the purpose of the Law to define and point out sin? Seems pretty vital. Plus I have always heard that no man could keep the Law. So God set them up to fail?

I mean "vital" in the theological sense. Basically meaning that the law has no power to give life. "If a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would have been based on the law" (Gal. 3:21). But law cannot impart life, and righteousness is not based on the law.

It's purpose is exactly as you have stated to reveal the character of God, thereby defining our sin and revealing that we are sinners. With the purpose of leading us to Christ, who alone can save us from our condition.




Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #25 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:06:52 »
And I said no one was EVER saved by the law, even in the OT. It's not Law vs Grace. Yeah if someone pervertedly thinks keeping law will save them, they are wrong. But the discussion here is the 10 commandments were not removed or abolished. They still serve their original intention to point to sin. The only difference is Christ raised the bar! No lusting vs just avoiding adultery, no anger vs just not murdering, etc. (The whole sermon on the mount thing).

Offline OldDad

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #26 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:12:36 »
It was the whole "point to sin" thing that prompted Paul to recognize his wretchedness - The Purpose of Law...

"Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins." Romans 7:21-8:3

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #27 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:14:34 »
Yeah, Jesus took away the penalty of sin, which is death. He didn't remove the Law, as he said he didn't come to do.

Offline OldDad

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #28 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:19:14 »
Remove, no - fulfill and thus provide the way for the LAw Covenant to be replaced by the Grace Covenant - Absolutely.


"For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death. He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near. Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us."
                          -- Ephesians 2:14-18

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #29 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:20:42 »
Fulfillment means simply that Jesus paid the debt demanded by our disobedience. In doing that some aspects of the law such as those dealing with the sacrifices, etc., were made to be no longer applicable.  However, that did not affect many of the moral features of the law. 

Would "coveting" be one of those moral "features" of the written law that Jesus doesn't fulfill


Does being saved stop you from coveting?

The point is, Jimmy, that you are going to have to reconcile your belief in the continuation of the "moral features" of the law with Romans 7:6-7. Where Paul specifically lists "coveting" one of the "big ten" moral "features" of the law, as that which those in Christ have died to and been released from, "so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."


No, the point is does being saved stop you from coveting?

Concerning, Romans 7: Rom 7:12  Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Are you suggesting that what is holy, just and good have been done away with?  But here again you confuse what it means to not be under the law.  The very first of the "law" says "You shall have no other gods before Me" Exo 20:3. Should we set that one aside?  Are we no longer to observe that?  Are we now free to have other gods before God?

I think it is not me who has trouble with reconciling beliefs.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #30 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:23:54 »
And I said no one was EVER saved by the law, even in the OT. It's not Law vs Grace. Yeah if someone pervertedly thinks keeping law will save them, they are wrong. But the discussion here is the 10 commandments were not removed or abolished. They still serve their original intention to point to sin. The only difference is Christ raised the bar! No lusting vs just avoiding adultery, no anger vs just not murdering, etc. (The whole sermon on the mount thing).

Christ raised the bar on self-righteousness. The purpose of the sermon on the mount was to take away any self-righteous thoughts a person might have that they could ever keep the law. He did that by revealing that sin is much more than external behavior, He revealed that sin is an internal condition, and that the external is only the outworking of that internal reality.

If one wants to know about the character of God, he should look to Jesus, not to the Law. Has not the Law been far superseded by the superior revelation of the character of God by the Son, Jesus Christ? The "Son...reveals Him" (Matt. 11:27); "He has explained Him" (John 1:18).



Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #31 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:24:55 »
I believe in the context of Mathew 5 that fulfill obviously means properly interpret. The Pharisees were abolishing the Law with their perverted interpretations. We have improperly applied fulfill to mean effectively remove. Yes the ceremonial laws were clearly done away with. The Moral Law of the 10 commandments was not. They are still in effect and Jesus raised the bar.

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #32 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:28:46 »
Fulfillment means simply that Jesus paid the debt demanded by our disobedience. In doing that some aspects of the law such as those dealing with the sacrifices, etc., were made to be no longer applicable.  However, that did not affect many of the moral features of the law. 

Would "coveting" be one of those moral "features" of the written law that Jesus doesn't fulfill


Does being saved stop you from coveting?

The point is, Jimmy, that you are going to have to reconcile your belief in the continuation of the "moral features" of the law with Romans 7:6-7. Where Paul specifically lists "coveting" one of the "big ten" moral "features" of the law, as that which those in Christ have died to and been released from, "so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."


No, the point is does being saved stop you from coveting?

Concerning, Romans 7: Rom 7:12  Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Are you suggesting that what is holy, just and good have been done away with?  But here again you confuse what it means to not be under the law.  The very first of the "law" says "You shall have no other gods before Me" Exo 20:3. Should we set that one aside?  Are we no longer to observe that?  Are we now free to have other gods before God?

I think it is not me who has trouble with reconciling beliefs.


Okay Jimmy, it is obvious you have gone off on some adventure in your own mind that has little to do with what I have written, and as a result are arguing with yourself. If you want to go back and start over, actually dealing with what was written that would seem to be the only way forward.



Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #33 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:33:04 »
I believe in the context of Mathew 5 that fulfill obviously means properly interpret. The Pharisees were abolishing the Law with their perverted interpretations. We have improperly applied fulfill to mean effectively remove. Yes the ceremonial laws were clearly done away with. The Moral Law of the 10 commandments was not. They are still in effect and Jesus raised the bar.

The Pharisees were abolishing the law in the same way that many do today, by setting it loose from the activity of God, attempting to take the place of God, to be God and do what only God can do.


Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #34 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 09:34:13 »
I believe in the context of Mathew 5 that fulfill obviously means properly interpret. The Pharisees were abolishing the Law with their perverted interpretations. We have improperly applied fulfill to mean effectively remove. Yes the ceremonial laws were clearly done away with. The Moral Law of the 10 commandments was not. They are still in effect and Jesus raised the bar.

The Pharisees were abolishing the law in the same way that many do today, by setting it loose from the activity of God, attempting to take the place of God, to be God and do what only God can do.



Yes, that is why Jesus had to fill up that which they had emptied.

 

     
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