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Author Topic: The Grace Killers  (Read 2626 times)

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Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2012, 08:23:54 AM »
And I said no one was EVER saved by the law, even in the OT. It's not Law vs Grace. Yeah if someone pervertedly thinks keeping law will save them, they are wrong. But the discussion here is the 10 commandments were not removed or abolished. They still serve their original intention to point to sin. The only difference is Christ raised the bar! No lusting vs just avoiding adultery, no anger vs just not murdering, etc. (The whole sermon on the mount thing).

Christ raised the bar on self-righteousness. The purpose of the sermon on the mount was to take away any self-righteous thoughts a person might have that they could ever keep the law. He did that by revealing that sin is much more than external behavior, He revealed that sin is an internal condition, and that the external is only the outworking of that internal reality.

If one wants to know about the character of God, he should look to Jesus, not to the Law. Has not the Law been far superseded by the superior revelation of the character of God by the Son, Jesus Christ? The "Son...reveals Him" (Matt. 11:27); "He has explained Him" (John 1:18).


"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2012, 08:23:54 AM »

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2012, 08:24:55 AM »
I believe in the context of Mathew 5 that fulfill obviously means properly interpret. The Pharisees were abolishing the Law with their perverted interpretations. We have improperly applied fulfill to mean effectively remove. Yes the ceremonial laws were clearly done away with. The Moral Law of the 10 commandments was not. They are still in effect and Jesus raised the bar.
So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2012, 08:24:55 AM »

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2012, 08:28:46 AM »
Fulfillment means simply that Jesus paid the debt demanded by our disobedience. In doing that some aspects of the law such as those dealing with the sacrifices, etc., were made to be no longer applicable.  However, that did not affect many of the moral features of the law. 

Would "coveting" be one of those moral "features" of the written law that Jesus doesn't fulfill


Does being saved stop you from coveting?

The point is, Jimmy, that you are going to have to reconcile your belief in the continuation of the "moral features" of the law with Romans 7:6-7. Where Paul specifically lists "coveting" one of the "big ten" moral "features" of the law, as that which those in Christ have died to and been released from, "so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."


No, the point is does being saved stop you from coveting?

Concerning, Romans 7: Rom 7:12  Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Are you suggesting that what is holy, just and good have been done away with?  But here again you confuse what it means to not be under the law.  The very first of the "law" says "You shall have no other gods before Me" Exo 20:3. Should we set that one aside?  Are we no longer to observe that?  Are we now free to have other gods before God?

I think it is not me who has trouble with reconciling beliefs.


Okay Jimmy, it is obvious you have gone off on some adventure in your own mind that has little to do with what I have written, and as a result are arguing with yourself. If you want to go back and start over, actually dealing with what was written that would seem to be the only way forward.


"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2012, 08:28:46 AM »

Offline ChristNU

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2012, 08:33:04 AM »
I believe in the context of Mathew 5 that fulfill obviously means properly interpret. The Pharisees were abolishing the Law with their perverted interpretations. We have improperly applied fulfill to mean effectively remove. Yes the ceremonial laws were clearly done away with. The Moral Law of the 10 commandments was not. They are still in effect and Jesus raised the bar.

The Pharisees were abolishing the law in the same way that many do today, by setting it loose from the activity of God, attempting to take the place of God, to be God and do what only God can do.

"How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?" (Gal. 3:3)

"He has enabled us to be ministers of His new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6)

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2012, 08:33:04 AM »

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2012, 08:34:13 AM »
I believe in the context of Mathew 5 that fulfill obviously means properly interpret. The Pharisees were abolishing the Law with their perverted interpretations. We have improperly applied fulfill to mean effectively remove. Yes the ceremonial laws were clearly done away with. The Moral Law of the 10 commandments was not. They are still in effect and Jesus raised the bar.

The Pharisees were abolishing the law in the same way that many do today, by setting it loose from the activity of God, attempting to take the place of God, to be God and do what only God can do.



Yes, that is why Jesus had to fill up that which they had emptied.
So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2012, 08:34:13 AM »



Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2012, 08:43:35 AM »
Fulfillment means simply that Jesus paid the debt demanded by our disobedience. In doing that some aspects of the law such as those dealing with the sacrifices, etc., were made to be no longer applicable.  However, that did not affect many of the moral features of the law. 

Would "coveting" be one of those moral "features" of the written law that Jesus doesn't fulfill


Does being saved stop you from coveting?

The point is, Jimmy, that you are going to have to reconcile your belief in the continuation of the "moral features" of the law with Romans 7:6-7. Where Paul specifically lists "coveting" one of the "big ten" moral "features" of the law, as that which those in Christ have died to and been released from, "so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."


No, the point is does being saved stop you from coveting?

Concerning, Romans 7: Rom 7:12  Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Are you suggesting that what is holy, just and good have been done away with?  But here again you confuse what it means to not be under the law.  The very first of the "law" says "You shall have no other gods before Me" Exo 20:3. Should we set that one aside?  Are we no longer to observe that?  Are we now free to have other gods before God?

I think it is not me who has trouble with reconciling beliefs.


Okay Jimmy, it is obvious you have gone off on some adventure in your own mind that has little to do with what I have written, and as a result are arguing with yourself. If you want to go back and start over, actually dealing with what was written that would seem to be the only way forward.


JImmy's question is highly relevant in my mind.
So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2012, 08:43:35 AM »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2012, 08:47:42 AM »
It would seem that there are some who really do not understand what the law was or is.  And anyone who does not understand the law, what it was, why it was, and what is our relationship to the law through Jesus does not understand grace.

Offline segell

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2012, 09:07:24 AM »
Jimmy,

You would agree that one is not saved by observing the law, correct?  God's commands are holy and just and obedience should be our heart's desire.  But for what purpose?  To prove ourselves or to experience life abundantly and to have our joy made complete as Jesus told us?

The law reveals sin and our desperate need for a Savior.  Agreed?

Steve

Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2012, 09:34:36 AM »

We write the law on our own heart? Really?



Are you unfamiliar with Psalm 119?
Quote
10  With my whole heart I seek you;
    let me not wander from your commandments!
11 I have stored up your word in my heart,
    that I might not sin against you.
12 Blessed are you, O Lord;
     teach me your statutes!

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2012, 09:34:36 AM »

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2012, 10:14:40 AM »
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We are grafted into the House of Israel and the law IS written on our hearts.

So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2012, 10:14:40 AM »

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2012, 10:45:07 AM »
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We are grafted into the House of Israel and the law IS written on our hearts.



The NEW covenant law has been written on our hearts. The Mosaic law was already written on the hearts of all men (Rom. 1-2). Anyone who adds works to salvation does NOT have the new covenant law written on his heart.

thinker

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2012, 11:12:44 AM »
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We are grafted into the House of Israel and the law IS written on our hearts.



The NEW covenant law has been written on our hearts. The Mosaic law was already written on the hearts of all men (Rom. 1-2). Anyone who adds works to salvation does NOT have the new covenant law written on his heart.

thinker

Maybe better stated....the new covenant law of Christ through the Holy Ghost living in their hearts...
I am what I am because of God's grace....

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2012, 02:07:58 PM »
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We are grafted into the House of Israel and the law IS written on our hearts.



The NEW covenant law has been written on our hearts. The Mosaic law was already written on the hearts of all men (Rom. 1-2). Anyone who adds works to salvation does NOT have the new covenant law written on his heart.

thinker

Maybe better stated....the new covenant law of Christ through the Holy Ghost living in their hearts...

As long as we understand that it God's new covenant law the is written in our hearts now.

Paul told the Galatians that the first covenant was the Sinatic Law. This implies that the second (new) covenant is God's new law. It is this covenant or new law that is written on our hearts.

thinker

Offline Consumingfire

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2012, 02:56:39 PM »
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We are grafted into the House of Israel and the law IS written on our hearts.



The NEW covenant law has been written on our hearts. The Mosaic law was already written on the hearts of all men (Rom. 1-2). Anyone who adds works to salvation does NOT have the new covenant law written on his heart.

thinker
You can't be serious.

Offline Jaime

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Re: The Grace Killers
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2012, 03:15:39 PM »
Thinker, no one is remotely talking about adding anything to salvation. The law was not for salvation. That has been reiterated over and over again. No one is contending what you are accusing.
So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman