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Offline Reformer

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“The Great Tribulation”
« on: Thu Jun 23, 2022 - 22:11:16 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
___________________
 
“The Great Tribulation” Of Matthew
24 & Luke 21
 
”For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be” [Matt. 24:21].

    Most of you who has access to this essay probably paints this “tribulation” as a future event, in spite of Jesus’ forecast in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 that this terrible distress would occur in His generation, and did occur in A. D. 67-70 when the Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish State.

    Biblical scholarship, including Adam Clarke, understands “the whole world” in verse 14 as “the whole world” of the Roman Empire. [Compare Acts 17:6 & I Peter 5:9 on the “whole world.”] Please note the symbolisms of Matthew 24.
 
    “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth” [or Roman Empire] will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” [Matt. 24:30-31].
 
    1] The destruction of Jerusalem was such a terrifying example of divine judgment, described in terms like the “clouds of the sky and with power and great glory,” that all the Jewish tribes mourned.
 
    2] “His angels” [messengers] were the apostles and those who followed afterwards.
 
    3] The “trumpet call” was the trumpet call of the Gospel, which was heard throughout the Roman provinces and beyond.
 
    4] The “gathering of His elect” were the Gentiles who had been chosen for salvation, in place of the rebellious Jews.
 
    5] It should be obvious to the logistic mind that the following warnings by Jesus relate to the destruction of Jerusalem, not to His second and final coming.

 
   Verses 17 & 18“Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.” Why? Because their time to escape the Roman Army would be limited.
 
   Verse 19“And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!” Why? To flee the Roman Army under such circumstances would almost be impossible.
 
    Verse 20“Pray that your flight [escape] may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.” Why? Escaping the pending tribulation would be uncommonly difficult. Under such horrific conditions, “...let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains” [V. 15].
 
    Another interesting thought is recorded in Luke 21:28, the parallel chapter. Jesus spoke of the believers’ deliverance or liberation—“redemption.” This points to the flight out of Jerusalem and safety from the horrible calamity. This was a warning for believers to flee, as noted in verse 15 of Matthew
 
    I think it is safe to say that Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do not refer to the second personal coming of our Lord, but rather to His coming in judgment upon the stiff-necked and rebellious Jewish nation. In light of this biblical evidence, it seems reasonable to conclude that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish State are alluded to, which occurred in A. D. 69-70.
 
    A little over 2,000 year ago a Jewish historian by the name of Josephus witnessed and recorded the war between the Roman Army and the Jewish people. The major part of the battle occurred in and around Jerusalem. The account by Josephus is almost an echo of the predictions of Jesus, as recorded in the 24th chapter of Matthew and the 21st chapter of Luke.
 
    The war began in 67 A.D. and ended in 70 A.D. On August 10, 70 A.D., Jerusalem was stormed and what followed was a universal massacre of the Jewish people—1,100,000 perished, and 100,000 survivors were sold into slavery. Such was the “tribulation” our Lord prophesied of in verse 21. [Look for the “Battle of Armageddon” soon.]
« Last Edit: Mon Jun 27, 2022 - 22:18:26 by Reformer »

Offline RB

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 30, 2022 - 03:57:02 »
Reformer, You have missed the truth on just about every account with your many unbiblical statements by following men instead of the word of God. No pun intended, it is just a biblical fact that I will take time to prove in the next few days.

Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21 have not a single warning about the destruction of the Jewish nation in 70 A.D. it is strictly limited to the tribulation period of the last days just before the second coming of Jesus Christ. The tribulation of the elect (the church, Jews and Gentiles, mainly made up of Gentiles since the apostles) not of the destruction of natural Israel~which God was finished with their temple, city, and form of worship at the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ~not 70 A.D. and we shall by God's help labor to prove it.

The secret rapture of the church and 70 A.D. doctrine held by so many, are both unbiblical. The 70 A.D. teaching is a much older doctrine in the church than the secret rapture teaching which you did a good job of exposing as false, yet it is just as false, and both will leave their followers unprepared for the evil days ahead that is coming upon the church.

Later......RB

Offline RB

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jun 30, 2022 - 10:02:14 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
___________________
 
“The Great Tribulation” Of Matthew
24 & Luke 21
 
”For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be” [Matt. 24:21].

    Most of you who has access to this essay probably paints this “tribulation” as a future event, in spite of Jesus’ forecast in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 that this terrible distress would occur in His generation, and did occur in A. D. 67-70 when the Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish State.
Reformer, respectfully I must disagree with you since the scriptures will not support your many errors on this subject.

My first point will address your statement here:
Quote
Jesus’ forecast in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 that this terrible distress would occur in His generation, and did occur in A. D. 67-70 when the Roman Army destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish State.
That's an assumption that no one can prove with the context of Matthew 24 and chapter 25 which is one dialogue addressing one subject~latter day abundance of false prophets overtaking the professing churches of worship whom they confess to be worshipping Jesus Christ.
Quote
Matthew 24:4,5~"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
Kenneth Copeland's Victory channel motto is: "Jesus is Lord".  Jimmy Swaggart's SBN makes the claim of being: God's channel and means of bringing the message of the cross to the whole world". They do not deny Jesus, but their Jesus is another jesus, another spirit, and another gospel.

Concerning the things written in Matthew 24 coming to pass in Jesus' generation, is simply not true.
Quote
Matthew 24:34~"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
This generation" is not speaking of Christ present generation for that is not the subject under consideration. The subject under consideration is an evil generation of snakes that shall invade the latter-day professing churches of Christ.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST interpretation of THIS GENERATION
Matthew 23:33-36~"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
THIS GENERATION killed Abel, and many righteous people since this world begun~and even killed the prince of glory!

The context of Matthew 24 is the wicked that shall take over the churches of Judea (or the place where Christ is worshiped)~we are in Judea, will flee unto the mountains (or out of the midst of the false churches where the man of sin rules.

Reformer, the tribulation Jesus prophesied of is future, just "before" is coming. I truly believe it started back in the early 1800s to where we are now. The majority of false cults were born at that point and forward.

Much more to follow the Lord willing.  RB
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 30, 2022 - 14:04:02 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 30, 2022 - 14:18:28 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
___________________
 
“The Great Tribulation” Of Matthew
24 & Luke 21
 
”For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be” [Matt. 24:21].
.........................“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth” [or Roman Empire] will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” [Matt. 24:30-31].
 
    1] The destruction of Jerusalem was such a terrifying example of divine judgment, described in terms like the “clouds of the sky and with power and great glory,” that all the Jewish tribes mourned.
Verses 30,31, are not describing the destruction of the nation of Israel, that's based upon pure biased opinions by men void of understanding, who refuse to allow the context drive the interpretation for them, instead they look to each other for help, and generally end up sharing the same opinion that's void of truth. Their instructor is a Jewish atheist named Josephus, who rejected the word of God and Jesus Christ.

Matthew 24:35-51 AND chapter 25 prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the latter days of this earth and Christ's second coming is the TOTAL SUBJECT under consideration.

More on this as we go forward. I'm attempting to break these posts into a few very short post for one to better comprehend what is under consideration.

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 30, 2022 - 14:18:28 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 30, 2022 - 22:56:52 »
RB:

    "Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21 have not a single warning about the destruction of the Jewish nation in 70 A.D."

    I suggest you not pick an argument with me about it. Pick your argument with Jesus and history. He is very truly the one who predicted it.

    And history written at the time of the War confirms it. If your explanations are wiser and more historical than Jesus' and history, go for it. But I won't keep my fingers crossed.

Buff

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 30, 2022 - 22:56:52 »

Offline RB

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jul 01, 2022 - 03:58:52 »
RB:

    "Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21 have not a single warning about the destruction of the Jewish nation in 70 A.D."

    I suggest you not pick an argument with me about it. Pick your argument with Jesus and history. He is very truly the one who predicted it.

    And history written at the time of the War confirms it. If your explanations are wiser and more historical than Jesus' and history, go for it. But I won't keep my fingers crossed.

Buff

I'm not picking an argument, just doing what others do~laboring to teach the truth and exposing errors, nothing more. We shall see whom the word of God spoken by the Lord Jesus will support~that's why we are here, is it not?
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 22:56:52
He is very truly the one who predicted it.
Jesus indeed taught about the great tribulation of the last days just before his coming, but not the ones you are trying to substitute in the place thereof. 

Offline Reformer

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jul 05, 2022 - 13:40:30 »
INTERESTING LETTER FROM ONE OF
 MY READERS

    Buff, very simply laid out in a logical manner – you nailed it in this article, “The Great Tribulation.”  It would be great if those of the “pre-mill” persuasion would quit pulling verses out of context to support their viewpoint.  But, there is something going on in the world today that is incredibly evil as a whole. 

    It seems the gates of hell are being unleashed against mankind, and the USA is at the center of most of it and exporting it to the world.  Wickedness abounds at every turn. Satan is alive and well, unfortunately. But the world always has hope – and that hope is found in Jesus Christ who is the King of kings and Lord of lords – the Savior to this world.

His Grace and Peace,

Dwight

________

Buff

Offline 4WD

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jul 05, 2022 - 14:27:16 »
I don't think you should call and end to the world just yet.  As bad as you think things are now, history records that things have been much worse in the past. The life of nearly everyone in past until about 100 years ago was worse than almost anything we see today.

Offline Reformer

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jul 05, 2022 - 22:12:27 »
4WD:

Good thinking, per Reply #7.

Buff

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jul 05, 2022 - 22:12:27 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #9 on: Fri Jul 08, 2022 - 23:20:08 »

Say, dan p:

    Do you read and digest the posts of others before you reply with a bushel of questions relating to other subjects? Just curious. Do you have any inquiries about the post above, for example?

Buff

Offline Amo

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #10 on: Sat Jul 09, 2022 - 11:11:41 »
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

A dual question, was answered by a dual prophecy. Jesus was addressing the literal destruction of the temple and Israel of old, and the future attempted wars and destruction upon the new covenant spiritual temple of God, Christ's church, until the end. The end of this world, that is. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, was a local and literal type of the future universal destruction of this world by its rejection of Jesus Christ as well. Then as now, when we shall see the Roman abomination of desolation standing in the place in the holy place, we should understand that destruction is coming upon the world. Just as it came upon Jerusalem of old.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Offline RB

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #11 on: Sat Jul 09, 2022 - 13:17:50 »
A dual question, was answered by a dual prophecy. Jesus was addressing the literal destruction of the temple and Israel of old, and the future attempted wars and destruction upon the new covenant spiritual temple of God, Christ's church, until the end. The end of this world, that is.
My friend Amo~there is no dual prophecy in Matthew 24,25. That's a popular belief, and once thought the same when I first begin reading and considering these scriptures almost fifty years ago.....boy, time flies by so fast! But, convince now this is not so.

Suppose to be on vacation this week but will take time to address this may be in the morning. RB

Offline Reformer

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #12 on: Sat Jul 09, 2022 - 16:20:06 »
RB:

   I, too, agree there is no dual prophecy in Mathew 24. The verses Amo quoted pretty well confirm it.

Have a good vacation,

Buff

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #13 on: Sun Jul 10, 2022 - 04:41:50 »
RB:

   I, too, agree there is no dual prophecy in Mathew 24. The verses Amo quoted pretty well confirm it.

Have a good vacation,

Buff
A lot of sincere Christians believe it is, and I'm very much aware of that. I will show why I do not embrace that school of thought.

Offline RB

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #14 on: Sun Jul 10, 2022 - 05:34:54 »
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:1-3~"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Let me see if I can keep this relatively short, maybe in a few short posts.

Does Matthew 24 have a dual prophecy? Many sincere believers would say yes, based mainly on the first three verses, along with a very few more in Matthew 24.

A very important truth to remember is this: Matthew 24 and 25 are one discourse and should not be divided as though they are not.

Another truth that should be kept in view is this: whatever is taught here in Jesus' last message to his three main apostles along with Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, will find support in other scriptures. Please note: the popular teaching of 70 A.D, is nowhere to be found elsewhere in the NT, regardless of the biblical gymnastics hermeneutics implored, generally by men following other men's teaching.

Another truth we must consider is this: Jesus spoke many times in proverbs, and parables, and with words, that we must use other scriptures to interpret for us to understand what he intends for us to understand by the words he chose to use.
Quote from: JESUS' DISCIPLES
John 16:29~"His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb."
Matthew 24 has hidden meaning behind certain phrases and words which we can easily prove their meaning with other scriptures~this is so from verses 7, 15-25. We trust to consider.

One more before moving on. Matthew's discourse along with Mark 13; and Luke 21 are the revealing of Daniel's prophecy~not the other way. I have heard men say you must understand Daniel before you can understand Matthew 24, that is false. Jesus made it very clear that whose readeth Daniel let him understand BY HEARING what he was saying to his disciple!
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 25:15~"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"
Note: the abomination of desolation is NOT what is abominable to Israel, but what is abominable to GOD that he WILL make desolate. This abomination was enlarged upon by Paul in 2nd Thessalonians 2 and by John himself in 1st John 2:18 and much in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Later.....RB

Offline Amo

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #15 on: Sun Jul 10, 2022 - 09:09:57 »
Yes, many choose to ignore the obvious. Jesus was asked about the destruction of the temple and the end of the world, and He most obviously answered both questions. You used to be right RB, now you are wrong. What happened?

Offline RB

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #16 on: Sun Jul 10, 2022 - 13:41:01 »
Yes, many choose to ignore the obvious. Jesus was asked about the destruction of the temple and the end of the world, and He most obviously answered both questions. You used to be right RB, now you are wrong. What happened?
I got converted from the error of my understanding to a more perfect understanding of the truth~ Much like Apollos did in Acts 18:24-28, or thereabouts.

The Christian life is a life of many conversions in our teachings and practical thinking concerning what is true godliness and truly pleasing to God, or, what constitutes a Pharisesical way of thinking versus true godliness
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 10, 2022 - 13:44:53 by RB »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #17 on: Sun Jul 10, 2022 - 13:47:30 »
Context is key.  The Temple and Jerusalem are mentioned early on in the Olivet Discourse.

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #18 on: Mon Jul 11, 2022 - 04:13:01 »
Context is key.  The Temple and Jerusalem are mentioned early on in the Olivet Discourse.
TC, it is indeed king! I'm glad you believe this is so, it should make my job easier to prove what temple was left desolate where not one stone was left upon another.

I'm supposed to be on vacation, but this is a vacation for me in one sense.

These posts are going to be more than I first thought. It is impossible to do a thorough job on this all-important subject that takes in so much of the doctrine of eschatology in one way or another.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 24:1,2~'And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
In what sense can Jesus' words be true: "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." Also, to make these words fit with the rest of the context? Just earlier Jesus said these words:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 23:37,38~"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."
Was this Holy City, this Jerusalem Christ was talking about, left desolate in AD 70? No, it was left spiritually desolate because it is the Old Testament congregation that Christ was speaking about at this death and resurrection!  Christ is not talking about a physical city being destroyed, or physical bricks falling in ruin, but of a corporate people of God. A people who had rejected God's servants and prophets despite God's care and care of them. A people who were supposed to be the holy city but who loved abominations rather than righteousness and as a result would be left desolate, with not one stone upon another, and no longer be the city of peace. He was not talking about a city being destroyed by Romans some 37 years later, but a spiritual city brought to blindness and ruin by their wickedness.

The fact is, interpretations don't belong to Josephus, they belong to God (Genesis 40:8 ). God doesn't leave it up to human bias, historians, or man to judge so-called Biblical truths, If that were the case, we would all come to totally different conclusions reading the same Bible. Which (by the way) is the very reason that we have so many diverse interpretations in the churches. Because so many professing Christians do not hold to the sound hermeneutic of allowing the Bible to interpret itself. People use the methodology of thinking they can "of themselves" discern truth through speculation and secular history. No way that is a sound system, nevertheless, folks still put their trust in this system. The truth about prophecy is found in the pages of the holy Bible, Not on the pages of history books. The Spirit of God that is within every believer does not reveal whether historical facts/events line up with prophecies, it reveals when scripture lines up with scripture, when it is in harmony with itself, thus revealing the truth of how God Himself interpret imagery, symbols, and prophecies.

By contrast, some seem to be saying that history, as found in secular history books, is an accurate way to interpret God's word. If that is what you believe, I would say that is an unsound system of interpretation. Assumption is the mother of errors. Secular History may be true, but it also may not be. For "History is written by the victors," and we should never assume that what is written is the truth just because it finds its way into renowned books. Nevertheless, even if it were "mostly" true, we can never use secular history to interpret or understand God's word. God didn't inspire His holy word to be interpreted by books written by uninspired men. The Bible is meant to be interpreted by the Bible, not by comparing it to what other men may have written. That's the most basic and fundamental of all sound interpretations.  We all as believers should believe the only infallible means of interpretation is an infallible word. Scripture interprets scripture because interpretations belong to God (Genesis 40:8 ), and God today speaks to us through His word. Anything else is a private interpretation.
Quote
2nd Peter 1:20"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."
God's prophesy has never been subject to any man's historical observations, personal opinions, individual explanations, or learned scholarly suppositions. Interpretation is by God through God's word alone.
Quote
Matthew 24:1-2~"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
Coming soon~RB

Offline RB

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #19 on: Mon Jul 11, 2022 - 04:37:44 »
Quote
Matthew 24:1,2~"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
Of course the natural man would look at this and think that God was speaking about a physical temple building, but the spiritual man knows God speaks of the congregation as a temple and those within it as the stones of that Temple. That's not something I made up, that's a Biblical fact. And as far as the prophecy, and despite suppositions to the contrary, our Lord was very specific saying not only that "not one stone would be left standing one upon another of it, but further amplified it by saying they (the stones one upon another) would all (BAR NONE) be thrown down! Even by using the vaunted secular history books we know of a certainty that more than one stone was left standing one upon another after AD 70. In point of fact, to this very day there are foundation stones left standing "one upon another" of the physical Temple. Moreover, there were (and let's not forget this) many stones of the physical city Jerusalem left standing one upon another. Again, the qualifying prophecy was that "not one stone would be left standing one upon another. Too many people want to "ignore" this qualification because it doesn't fit or conform to their personal/private interpretations of this prophecy taking place in AD 70.
Quote
Luke 19:41-46"And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought; Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves."
Many Christians refuse to hear the part where Christ unambiguously says the city shall be laid even with the ground and her children within her. It's very willfully convenient to leave that part out. Who TRULY were the enemies of Jerusalem and how were they compassed round about her. Who truly brought the city to desolation? Was it the Romans, or was it those who would smite the Shepherd? Only by comparing scripture with scripture will we ever know the "TRUE" answer to that. No, it's not the Romans! Christ said that the city Jerusalem itself and all its children within would be laid even with the ground so that Not one stone would be left standing one upon another. Again, Christ's specific qualification for fulfillment, not mine. Of course, the physical city remained with many stones left standing one upon another, which means that the physical city in AD 70 was NOT what Christ was speaking about in the prophecy. Only their spiritual city, the Old Testament congregation qualifies for having been completely laid even with the ground and brought to desolation. We have to understand, Christ didn't weep for literal stones or for a physical city Jerusalem, he wept for the congregation Jerusalem, the people who were the stones and the city proper. It is "THEY" who would be brought to desolation or total ruin by their abominations, and it is they who were laid even with the ground. That is why the Apostle Paul also wept for his kinsmen according to the flesh. Because He understood the truth. That is the ruin that came upon Jerusalem because of her abominations.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:8"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Something has already taken place where the Old Testament congregation has been brought to ruin. They have been thrown down and would never be the representation of the holy city of God ever again! This is what the veil of the Holy Temple being torn in two signified.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Matthew 27:50-51~"Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"
This true destruction of Jerusalem, the holy city, didn't occur in AD 70, but when Christ was crucified on the cross. When the Temple veil was torn in two and the rocks rent that symbolized there were instituted a new way, a New Temple (a rebuilding or as Biblically put, "Build again"). And in order for the building again, there would have to he been the ruin before. Selah! For how do you rebuild up something that has not been previously brought down to ruin. Not one stone was left one upon another in that city because by their abominations, it was laid waste~the Kingdom was taken from them and given to another. Where all stones were thrown down, Christ came to start the rebuilding, being the beginning, the cornrstone of that rebuilding. Not rebuilding a physical Temple as so many modern Christians suppose, but as God had always intended.
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Matthew 21:42-43~"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes, Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."?
The Holy city representation of the congregation of God, the kingdom of God on earth, was taken from them and was instituted in the New Testament Church. Christ is the beginning, the cornerstone of that rebuilding of what was brought to ruin. The people of the congregation built upon Him are the stones of that rebuilding of city and Temple. Thrown down, rebuilt, it's not rocket science, it's simply understanding Scripture spiritually, the way our Lord fully intended. Christians are spiritual beings, we don't understand things in the way the world does, but in the Spirit of truth. Comparing scripture with scripture is the only sound hermeneutic whereby we may understand righteously God's view of things.
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1st Corinthians 2:13~"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
Not by comparing the carnal, natural, and physical with the carnal, but by spiritual with spiritual. These are things that man's natural wisdom will miss as he looks to worldly or carnal interpretations through history books, nations, and political rulers.

It is only in searching the word of God that we will find how Jerusalem was brought to desolation and ruin, and when.
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Matthew 12:25-27~"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges."
Jerusalem was brought to ruin because it was a city that was divided against itself, no longer holy, and couldn't stand. That's not talking about an inanimate object such as a physical city or physical stones, but people. Thus they were destroyed, every last stone laid level with the ground. And a rebuilding commenced in Christ as the first stone. This is the "TRUE" restoration of Israel, which secular history cannot dream of comprehending.
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Acts 15:16-17~"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things."


The tabernacle was fallen in Adam, and it had to be rebuilt in Christ, and the ruins restored, and this is all talking about Christ and the New Testament congregation. Look deeper into the prophecy and know that it is true. What many people don't understand is the spiritual nature of the Bible. A literal Temple or rebuilding is not in view. These people were the stones laid level in ruin, and Christ was the beginning of a new building, with new stones. God is not interested in physical bricks falling except in seeing they may not see.
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Matthew 21:41-43~"They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
The Old Jerusalem was laid ruin at the cross by their rejection of Christ, the New Testament Jerusalem is built on their ruins, and we are the stones of that "building again" of the ruins. One laid one upon another. These are spiritual truths, not truths anyone will find in a secular history book, but ONLY in the word of God diligently searched out! And in searching it out we find that the Temple was destroyed at His death. But the responsibility for that destruction rests upon the head of those who rejected Christ. They (according to scripture) destroyed the sanctuary, they are those who Jesus said (according to scripture) "destroy this temple," and in three days the Lord raised it up. Sure, we can wax poetic about how no one really destroyed the Temple until AD 70, but according to prophesy, they not only did destroy the holy temple by their abominations, but that it was left desolate (totally in ruins) by its abominations, not by Romans.

Anyone can study history. There is no Biblical law against the study of History. The problem comes in when Christians attempt to use secular history to prove fulfilled scripture. History doesn't prove scripture, scripture proves History. The scriptures are not in error, folks understanding of them is in error. That can be very easily proven IF we take Christ at his word when He says that not one stone will be left standing one upon another. i.e., there were many stones left standing one upon another after the Romans attack of the city, and anyone can prove that for themselves by going to Jerusalem today and seeing the ruins and walls and stones left standing one upon another. Unless Jesus made a mistake in claiming they wouldn't be left that way, then obviously folks understanding of what He truly was saying is flawed.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 11, 2022 - 07:10:09 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #20 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 06:08:28 »
I'll try hard to make another post tomorrow.  Amo, and Reformer where are you?

Offline 4WD

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #21 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 07:22:46 »
Of course the natural man would look at this and think that God was speaking about a physical temple building, but the spiritual man knows God speaks of the congregation as a temple and those within it as the stones of that Temple. That's not something I made up, that's a Biblical fact.
I am usually with you concerning the truths of the end times; but not in this approach to scripture.

Mat 24:1  Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2  But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."


To reject the fact that Jesus was talking about the temple in verse 2 is to reject Jesus own words --  PERIOD!!

Quote from: RB
What many people don't understand is the spiritual nature of the Bible.
Do not reject the physical realities of things spoken of in the Bible.  What you are doing in turning everything into a "spiritual nature" is one of the heresies that arose early in the Christian world. It denied the physical reality of Jesus Christ, claiming that he was only a spiritual being. It was sort of the opposite or the rejection of Arianism which denied that Jesus was God or co-eternal with the Father. Both of course were/are heresies.

Offline DaveW

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #22 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 08:09:27 »
Good point 4WD.

How are you doing, brother?

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #23 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 08:31:30 »
I am doing just one step at a time.  The realization of my loss comes in waves. Hopefully, in time, the waves will level out and the remembrances will become mostly the good things that were and not the emptiness that is.

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #24 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 08:50:21 »
I am doing just one step at a time.  The realization of my loss comes in waves. Hopefully, in time, the waves will level out and the remembrances will become mostly the good things that were and not the emptiness that is.
Prayers and hugs going your way, bro!

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #25 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 09:47:44 »
Prayers and hugs going your way, bro!
Amen.

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #26 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 10:09:35 »
I am usually with you concerning the truths of the end times; but not in this approach to scripture.
4WD, do you remember these words of Jesus:
Quote
Matthew 11:12-15~"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
The word of God is for spiritual-minded believers, who have ears to hear~sometimes we labor to hear such things as are written in places like Matthew 24, where only spiritually taught children of God can hear.... others~ will mock.....NOT saying you are, but many do and by doing so, will never come unto the knowledge of the truth
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 07:22:46
To reject the fact that Jesus was talking about the temple in verse 2 is to reject Jesus' own words --  PERIOD!!
Brother, are we the spiritual temple of God? Are we spiritual stones that make up this temple? If yes, then the analogy fits perfectly.
Quote
Do not reject the physical realities of things spoken of in the Bible. 
Trust me, I do not, nevertheless, if the physical realities do not fit, then we must seek the true meaning of the words spoken by comparing scripture with scriptures just as we did above.
Quote
is one of the heresies that arose early in the Christian world
I do understand that to be so, and have rejected many of their teachings. But, I did not throw the baby out with the dirty bath water. Enough for now on this.  RB
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 13:05:23 by RB »

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #27 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 10:44:10 »
To start off in Matthew 24, the physical realities fit, and then the discourse becomes a bit more general.  Physical things often shadow the spiritual, and such is it here.

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #28 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 11:26:27 »
4WD, do you remember these words of Jesus:
Yes, I do; I remember it well.
Quote from: RB
The word of God is for spiritual-minded believers, who have ears to hear~
But I also remember that your interpretation and understanding is warped and twisted by your belief in the false doctrine of Total Depravity.
Quote from: RB
Trust me, I do not, nevertheless, if the physical realities do not fit..
But the physical realities do fit. The wailing wall, also called the western wall, is not a part of the temple buildings per se, but rather a part of Herod's wall around the temple mount.

Offline RB

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #29 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 13:01:26 »
But I also remember that your interpretation and understanding is warped and twisted by your belief in the false doctrine of Total Depravity.
4WD, I have two immutable witnesses on my side: one, the word of God. Romans 3; 2nd~all of humanity when left to their own heart they were born with, called the old man, the flesh, children of the first Adam.
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 11:26:27
But the physical realities do fit. The wailing wall, also called the western wall, is not a part of the temple buildings per se, but rather a part of Herod's wall around the temple mount.
Quote
Mark 13:1,2~"And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
4WD look it up and see that the Western Wall, or “Wailing Wall”, is the most religious site in the world for the Jewish people. Located in the Old City of Jerusalem, it is the western support wall of the Temple Mount. Thousands of people journey to the wall every year to visit and recite prayers.

Nevertheless, it is impossible that one stone was not left upon another in the literal sense, but it is understood only if applied Jesus' saying in the sense in which we did above.

Offline 4WD

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Re: “The Great Tribulation”
« Reply #30 on: Tue Jul 12, 2022 - 14:05:29 »
4WD, I have two immutable witnesses on my side: one, the word of God. Romans 3; 2nd~all of humanity when left to their own heart they were born with, called the old man, the flesh, children of the first Adam.
That is not a confirmation of your false doctrine of Total depravity.  That is just a statement of how God created the human being.  It is called free will.  It is the same human nature that Adam was created with. Again and again, your adherence to Total Depravity is screwing with your knowledge and understanding.

Quote
4WD look it up and see that the Western Wall, or “Wailing Wall”, is the most religious site in the world for the Jewish people. Located in the Old City of Jerusalem, it is the western support wall of the Temple Mount. Thousands of people journey to the wall every year to visit and recite prayers.
The temple mount, yes; the temple building, no. A wall was constructed to surround on all four sides of the area on which the temple was built. The wall was no a part of the temple buildings.  What is there today is what is left of the wall, not what is left of any part of the temple.

 

     
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