Author Topic: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel  (Read 1685 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #35 on: Tue Jun 15, 2021 - 07:48:23 »
Please note the KJV rendition which does not have the word “now” that you seem to emphasise to support your claim.
Romans 11:31 (KJV): Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
But you are reading verse 31 without verses 30 and 32. Verse 30 begins with the phrase, "For just as you were at one time... ", it then follows in verse 31 with, "so they too have now been disobedient".  The parallels are so obvious that the absence of "now"  in the last part of verse 31 in the KJV is irrelevant.  Clearly Paul intended the "now" whether or not the KJV includes it in the last part.  And that is made clear in verse 32; For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Offline RB

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #36 on: Tue Jun 15, 2021 - 14:04:13 »
Greetings again RB,  I have already quoted from the NT in Reply #27. Perhaps you could match your claims against Luke 21:24 for a start. 
Trevor~just as I said, you have a task on your hand, in which you cannot prove your doctrine of natural Israel is distinct from the church of Jesus Christ as God's very elect. Luke 21 is the same discourse as Matthew 24, and Mark 13, with each giving some minor details a little different than the other, yet the very same doctrine taught in all three gospels~and that doctrine is this: "Each writer are giving to us details of events which shall mark the latter days of the last days just before Jesus' return~such events that shall take place during the little season of Revelation 20 and other places in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Briefly, please consider:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 21:7-36~"And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
I'm coming back later to prove that JERUSALEM is not the city in the middle east but the beloved city...the very elect of God, and the Gentiles which are seen trodden down Jerusalem are the none-elect whom John calls Gog and Magog~the times of the Gentiles is the time God is visiting them, yet at the end of this world that visitation has come to an end and they like Israel before them apostates from God, while a few remains faithful and the Gentiles world (which consist of men from all nations unconverted which would INCLUDE JEWS) will seek to destroy the remaining faithful of the TRUE CITY OF ZION~Hebrews 12. I quoted much of Luke 21 for CONTEXT is critical in seeing the truth of what is being said, along with comparing other scriptures.

Later...RB

Offline johntwayne

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #37 on: Tue Jun 15, 2021 - 16:46:08 »
Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were fulfilled with the the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #37 on: Tue Jun 15, 2021 - 16:46:08 »

Offline TrevorL

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jun 15, 2021 - 17:24:34 »
Greetings again 4WD, RB and johntwayne,
But you are reading verse 31 without verses 30 and 32. Verse 30 begins with the phrase, "For just as you were at one time... ", it then follows in verse 31 with, "so they too have now been disobedient".  The parallels are so obvious that the absence of "now"  in the last part of verse 31 in the KJV is irrelevant.  Clearly Paul intended the "now" whether or not the KJV includes it in the last part.  And that is made clear in verse 32; For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
I am not ignoring verses 30 and 32, but I read all of this in the flow of the whole chapter, and the flow of the prophecy of Isaiah, specifically Isaiah 6:9-10 and the four Servant Songs, and the records of the Gospels, that blindness came upon Israel as they did not recognise their Messiah, and their hearts became hardened, and they rejected Jesus and crucified him. As result the Gospel was preached amongst the Gentiles and they received the Gospel. Romans 11 takes this overall situation and then teaches us that at the return of Jesus the Jews will be converted and their blindness will be removed.
Trevor~just as I said, you have a task on your hand, in which you cannot prove your doctrine of natural Israel is distinct from the church of Jesus Christ as God's very elect. ….  the Gentiles which are seen trodden down Jerusalem are the none-elect whom John calls Gog and Magog~the times of the Gentiles is the time God is visiting them,
The treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles spoken about by Jesus in Luke 21:24 specifically commenced in AD 70 and the reversal of this came in 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem and this also corresponds to the 2300 years from BC 334-333 to AD 1967 of Daniel 8:13. The Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 are at the end of the 1000 years and are distinct from that of Ezekiel 38-39 which ushers in the conversion of the Jews at the return of Jesus.
Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were fulfilled with the the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Yes, a major part was fulfilled in AD70, but Luke 21:24 speaks of a long period of time called “the times of the Gentiles” and then after this these prophecies speak of the return of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 15, 2021 - 17:28:32 by TrevorL »

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #38 on: Tue Jun 15, 2021 - 17:24:34 »

Offline RB

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #39 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 04:23:52 »
Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were fulfilled with the the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Brother~that is not so, yet another study for another day. Matthew 24 is CONNECTED with chapter 25 as ONE COMPLETE DISCOURSE when Christ answered the disciple's question concerning the end of the world. The 70 AD destruction of Israel is truly not even a bible doctrine~much like the secret rapture theory NEITHER of which we would know anything about if we were on an island by ourselves with only the word of God~ then those two doctrines would have never come into the mind of a sincere seeker of the truth, NEVER.  Maybe another thread we can start and discuss this fable as well~or, in this thread since it kinda goes hand in hand. 
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 04:54:21 by RB »

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #39 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 04:23:52 »



Offline RB

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #40 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 04:50:52 »
The treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles spoken about by Jesus in Luke 21:24 specifically commenced in AD 70 and the reversal of this came in 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem and this also corresponds to the 2300 years from BC 334-333 to AD 1967 of Daniel 8:13. The Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 are at the end of the 1000 years and are distinct from that of Ezekiel 38-39 which ushers in the conversion of the Jews at the return of Jesus.Yes, a major part was fulfilled in AD70, but Luke 21:24 speaks of a long period of time called “the times of the Gentiles” and then after this these prophecies speak of the return of Jesus.
I want to consider the Olivet discourse after a couple of more posts on Ephesians three to see where it truly fits into Bible prophecy and the Jewish nation, for the timeline is crucial in knowing the truth~err here and one's whole eschatology will be against the truth and will affect many other bible doctrines: Christ, the very elect; Israel after the flesh, who are NOT the children of God's promises in Christ as a nation; and the world in general. 

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #40 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 04:50:52 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #41 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 05:33:21 »
I am not ignoring verses 30 and 32, but I read all of this in the flow of the whole chapter, and the flow of the prophecy of Isaiah, specifically Isaiah 6:9-10 and the four Servant Songs, and the records of the Gospels, that blindness came upon Israel as they did not recognise their Messiah, and their hearts became hardened, and they rejected Jesus and crucified him. As result the Gospel was preached amongst the Gentiles and they received the Gospel. Romans 11 takes this overall situation and then teaches us that at the return of Jesus the Jews will be converted and their blindness will be removed.
And in all of that you don't seem to understand that salvation is the salvation of the individual. It never was and will never be the salvation of an earthly nation, the nation of Israel or any other nation.  There were Jews being saved from the very beginning. They were the earliest children of God.  There have been Jews being saved when the Apostles first began spreading the gospel message.  There are Jews even today being saved.  They are a part of the "all" upon whom now "God may have mercy". 

As an added note, blindness is also a condition of the individual.  So also is the removal of blindness. 

Offline RB

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #42 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 05:45:43 »
Quote from: Paul a Jew by nature
Ephesians 3:7~"Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power."
Paul was made a minister to the Gentiles to preach this glorious news of their full inclusion. It was a gift of God’s grace to make Paul, before a blasphemer, a preacher of Jesus Christ. It took the effectual working of God’s power to convert Saul of Tarsus to the apostle Paul~to take the message of reconciliation to us Gentiles.
Quote
Ephesians 3:8~"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;"
Glorious message indeed~ not a message of an AFTERTHOUGHT, you are all that is left so I guess I'll take you to provoke my true love to jealousy! Well, that's what many believe and is what Judaism working through premillennialism desires for us to believe. 
 
Paul in this place denigrates himself to maximize the grace of God in His office of apostle to the Gentiles; though in other places he magnifies himself to maximize God’s grace (Ist Corinthians 15:10). The apostles, though having great knowledge, had the treasure in earthen vessels (2nd Corinthians 4:7). What an honor! Paul, though an enemy of Jesus Christ, was chosen to preach the gospel among millions of Gentiles, rather than be limited to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

What are unsearchable riches? Those beyond knowing and measuring (Job 5:9; Romans 11:33). It is the incredible and fantastic value of Jesus Christ the angels desired to see (Ist Peter 1:120. Jesus Christ, by ending the Mosaic economy, united Jews and Gentiles in one body to God. The doctrine taught all through the OT under the words: Israel and Judah!
Quote
Ephesians 3:9~"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The “all men” here are all the Gentile saints and Jews to whom God sent the apostle Paul. All through the Psalms and Prophets as ISRAEL AND JUDAH!

“Fellowship” here is the comfort and pleasure of the mystery that blesses Gentile and Jewish believers to be united in one Christian fellowship and church for advanced worship of God.

Here again is the definition of “mystery.” Some thing of truth hidden in God from the world. This specific mystery had been kept hidden from the beginning, but it was known to God~and in their OT scriptures for US TO SEE CLEARLY. All one needs to do is see how many times Israel and Judah are used together where God promises to UNITE THEM AS ONE. I'll give one to get you started and you can use an concordance to find hundreds of more of these scriptures.
Quote
Hosea 1:11~Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel
Quote
Ephesians 3:10~"To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,"
This can be a difficult text, if you rush through it without considering the wording carefully. The intent, or purpose, of God in revealing a new dispensation was to magnify His wisdom. It was only “now,” the first time since the beginning of the world, that it was fully known. Principalities and powers in heavenly places are the holy and elect angels of God’s heaven. Principalities and powers can refer to either category of angels (Ephesians 6:12; Colossians 2:15). We understand these to be good angels by virtue of their place in heaven (1:3,20; 2:6). God’s glorious and gracious plan of redemption is to reveal His glory to the whole universe. He chose as part of this revelation to show the angels His glorious wisdom in redemption. The manifold wisdom of God includes all the facets, phases, and aspects of His salvation. Since angels are more intelligent, glorious, and powerful than us, it is a great revelation. Since the fallen members of their ranks are reserved in chains for judgment, the salvation of men is a glorious thing that they desire to look into and comprehend (Ist Peter 1:12). Since they are creatures, they are not privy to the mysterious will of God (Matthew 24:36). The words, “by the church,” tell us the means by which God teaches the angels His wisdom. It is not the church that learns or knows in this verse; it is the principalities and powers. And they learn God’s wisdom by observing what He did for and to the church. Glory!

They learned in progress of time as did the apostles of God’s plan for the pagan Gentiles. What a contrast of grace and judgment~grace to the Gentiles and judgment to angels!

The glory of this verse will be overlooked or missed, unless we stop to consider its weight! God chose us for a cosmic object lesson of great proportions to impress mighty angels! God’s treatment of us in our church is far greater than anything He has done for angels!
Quote
Ephesians 3:11~According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
All things God does in time are according to His purpose that He ordained in eternity past., James at Jerusalem’s council declared the Gentile inclusion was planned earlier (Acts 15:18). NO afterthought. Not only was election and predestination according to His purpose, but this grace also ( See 1:11; Romans 11:29-36).
 
 

Offline RB

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #43 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 06:01:25 »
that blindness came upon Israel as they did not recognise their Messiah, and their hearts became hardened, and they rejected Jesus and crucified him. As result the Gospel was preached amongst the Gentiles and they received the Gospel.
All part of God's plan to teach us that salvation is of the Lord~Romans 11:29-36!. Trevor, actually many THOUSANDS of Jews were converted~if you go through the Acts of the apostles you will find at least 20,000 were converted in that short period of time that is recorded for us. Do you need me to provided scriptures~ I think you know them. As 4WD has well pointed out~ Salvation from sin and condemnation has to do with INDIVIDUAL not nations. There are no promises to BLOODLINE.
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 14:50:15 by RB »

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #43 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 06:01:25 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #44 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 06:39:02 »
that blindness came upon Israel as they did not recognize their Messiah, and their hearts became hardened, and they rejected Jesus and crucified him.
Paul describes it as more of a hardening rather than blindness.  And it was only partial and temporary.

Romans 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;


Quote
As result the Gospel was preached amongst the Gentiles and they received the Gospel. Romans 11 takes this overall situation and then teaches us that at the return of Jesus the Jews will be converted and their blindness will be removed.

Yes.  Romans 11 also says WHY the gospel went to the gentiles: 

Romans 11:11
I say then, they
[Jews] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

I believe Romans 11.11 makes it incumbent on EVERY GENTILE BELIEVER to present the gospel to the Jewish people in such a way that they will perceive it as something of their own, and not a foreign pagan faith.
« Last Edit: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 06:49:16 by DaveW »

Offline RB

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #45 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 06:53:40 »
Paul describes it as more of a hardening rather than blindness.  And it was only partial and temporary.
Dave, I must disagree with your understanding here. It was a BLINDNESS not so much as a hardening~if we follow Paul's words carefully.

I leaving shortly, so I will not have time to fully comment but will later. If we carefully follow Paul from Chapter nine until the end of chapter eleven we will see they (the Jews) actually fear God and were zealous~Romans 10:1-4~Yet, they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. It was a matter of submitting to God's method of being righteous before him. The Jews seeing the Gentiles submitting would be the means of provoking the regenerate Jews that believe and feared God to submit yet were enemies against the truth.

LAter more AGAIN on this.

Offline TrevorL

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #46 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 07:57:07 »
Greetings again 4WD, RB and DaveW,
And in all of that you don't seem to understand that salvation is the salvation of the individual. It never was and will never be the salvation of an earthly nation, the nation of Israel or any other nation.
As an added note, blindness is also a condition of the individual.  So also is the removal of blindness.
There are many prophecies, including Romans 11 that teach that a significant remnant of the nation of Israel will be converted when Jesus returns. Yes, each individual will be converted and saved. Isaiah 6:9-10 teach that most of the nation of Israel would become blind, deaf and their hearts hardened, and this was fulfilled in the time of Jesus and the Apostles. Again this was true of the individuals.
All part of God plan to teach us that salvation is of the Lord~Romans 11:29-36!. Trevor, actually many THOUSANDS of Jews were converted~if you go through the Acts of the apostles you will find at least 20,000 were converted in that short period of time that is recorded for us.
Yes, but the majority failed to respond and many were killed in AD70, and many others taken away into captivity. The Arch of Titus commemorates Rome’s victory over Judaea and depicts the taking of many of the Jews into captivity and the destruction and pillaging of the Temple.
Paul describes it as more of a hardening rather than blindness.  And it was only partial and temporary.
Paul later quotes Isaiah 6:9-10 in Acts 28:26-27 and this includes blindness, deafness and hardening of their hearts. The temporary has not been reversed as yet, as it has lasted nearly 2000 years, but will be reversed soon, when Jesus returns.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline 4WD

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #47 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 08:19:55 »
Greetings again 4WD, RB and DaveW, There are many prophecies, including Romans 11 that teach that a significant remnant of the nation of Israel will be converted when Jesus returns.
It is not the Bible that teaches that; it is the false premillennialism that teaches that. The prophecies teach that when Jesus returns, that is the end.

Offline DaveW

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #48 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 08:49:42 »
Greetings again 4WD, RB and DaveW, There are many prophecies, including Romans 11 that teach that a significant remnant of the nation of Israel will be converted when Jesus returns. Yes, each individual will be converted and saved.
The timing on that is not clear.  It may happen at His return, or it may happen before that.  We do not know.  But what IS interesting is this statement:

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


I am really curious as to what that will be exactly.

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #49 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 10:06:48 »
The timing on that is not clear.  It may happen at His return, or it may happen before that.  We do not know.  But what IS interesting is this statement:

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


I am really curious as to what that will be exactly.

This verse wouldn't be necessary if Israel only meant current Christians.  It's one of those holes in the understanding that Israel=Church (or whatever word Buff prefers).

Offline TrevorL

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Re: THE Israel of God is NOT earthly Israel
« Reply #50 on: Wed Jun 16, 2021 - 17:08:34 »
Greetings again 4WD and DaveW,
It is not the Bible that teaches that; it is the false premillennialism that teaches that. The prophecies teach that when Jesus returns, that is the end.
Many prophecies teach that Jesus will establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth, consider Isaiah 2:1-5 for a start.
The timing on that is not clear.  It may happen at His return, or it may happen before that.  We do not know.  But what IS interesting is this statement:
Romans 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
I am really curious as to what that will be exactly.
I understand this to teach that when Christ returns the faithful dead will be raised and will inherit the Kingdom and at the same time the nation of Israel will be converted and become the first dominion of the Kingdom of God Micah 4:1-8.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

     
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