Author Topic: Christians living Torah  (Read 5104 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline manichunter

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 87
  • Manna: 3
Christians living Torah
« on: Tue Jun 24, 2008 - 16:18:59 »
Question- Why do some Christians now observe certain elements of the First Covenant Torah?

This question is addressed to people who called themselves Christians in the fashion that Jesus is their Lord and Savior.   Why do you now observe certain elements of the First Covenant such as the Holy Festivals and Sabbaths?  I am speaking to saints who formerly observed mainstream protestant or catholic doctrines and traditions which excluded First Covenant traditions.

What motivated and influenced your change of observances and traditions?   What revelation did you receive that encouraged you to see these things as relevant and sacred? 

This post is not addressed to Christians who do not observe these traditions, but feel free to join in the discussion.  I am trying to see how others came to this same point in their walk with Jesus as I did.


I personally see the Torah in a differently light now.  I see it through the spiritual eyes now, for it is no longer of the flesh.  I observe the Holy Feast Days and Sabbath in the newness of spirit, not in the letter of the old physical Torah.  I now see and respect my circumcision of the heart and Torah that was spiritually written on my heart.  Hence it has changed location from physical scrolls to the human spirit.  Now it is to be observed as a memorial and celebration of Jesus; and, it is the means to love both God and neighbor. 
I started this path in 1995 when I started to reading the history of Christianity and matching it with today’s culture.  I started to see some of the reasons for all the divisions and schisms in the Body of Christ.  It was caused by what Paul said was carnality.  Carnality by means of human traditions, thoughts, and biases had infiltrated Christianity and became a part of various believers’ traditions.  I went into active rebellion because no one could provide me with good answers as to how and why things where the way they were.  Christianity had wide holes in its theology and traditions, but most leaders seem comfortable leaving things at rest.  I was looking for a way out of carnality for myself.  However, all I did was fine myself in trouble in the churches I attended, became more carnal myself, and became discouraged.  I wanted to know the truth at all cost so I thought.  Hence God led me to a church unknown to me that was heading in the same direction. 

It began 1998 with the pastor teaching on paganism within Christian traditions.  Then He taught on various subjects to include the need to be a community, identity, purpose, and aspects of the ancient Hebrew culture.  Then in 2002 he begins to teach and observe the Jewish Festivals.  This was not forced upon the members however.   So, I begin to look into this matter myself through independent sources.  Now, by witness and inspiration of the Holy Spirit I have come to observe and worship in the manner of the Holy Days and Sabbaths.  We observe Sabbath on Friday after sundown as a community and still worship on Sunday as a community as well.  I have learned elements and truths about Christ that I could have never understood independent of this transition.

Now I observe Spiritual Torah not in the old letter of the law that my carnal man was subjected to but could never accomplish, but in spirit and truth as I am now spiritual.  I can in no fashion earn my own justification for salvation, righteousness, and reward; but I can emulate my Lord who is Torah in spirit as led by the Holy Spirit.  I observe the Holy Days and Sabbaths as memorials with the same motivations of other Christians worship and observing Easter. 

Robert Pate

  • Guest
Re: Christians living Torah
« Reply #1 on: Tue Jun 24, 2008 - 16:36:14 »
Question- Why do some Christians now observe certain elements of the First Covenant Torah?

This question is addressed to people who called themselves Christians in the fashion that Jesus is their Lord and Savior.   Why do you now observe certain elements of the First Covenant such as the Holy Festivals and Sabbaths?  I am speaking to saints who formerly observed mainstream protestant or catholic doctrines and traditions which excluded First Covenant traditions.

What motivated and influenced your change of observances and traditions?   What revelation did you receive that encouraged you to see these things as relevant and sacred? 

This post is not addressed to Christians who do not observe these traditions, but feel free to join in the discussion.  I am trying to see how others came to this same point in their walk with Jesus as I did.


I personally see the Torah in a differently light now.  I see it through the spiritual eyes now, for it is no longer of the flesh.  I observe the Holy Feast Days and Sabbath in the newness of spirit, not in the letter of the old physical Torah.  I now see and respect my circumcision of the heart and Torah that was spiritually written on my heart.  Hence it has changed location from physical scrolls to the human spirit.  Now it is to be observed as a memorial and celebration of Jesus; and, it is the means to love both God and neighbor. 
I started this path in 1995 when I started to reading the history of Christianity and matching it with today’s culture.  I started to see some of the reasons for all the divisions and schisms in the Body of Christ.  It was caused by what Paul said was carnality.  Carnality by means of human traditions, thoughts, and biases had infiltrated Christianity and became a part of various believers’ traditions.  I went into active rebellion because no one could provide me with good answers as to how and why things where the way they were.  Christianity had wide holes in its theology and traditions, but most leaders seem comfortable leaving things at rest.  I was looking for a way out of carnality for myself.  However, all I did was fine myself in trouble in the churches I attended, became more carnal myself, and became discouraged.  I wanted to know the truth at all cost so I thought.  Hence God led me to a church unknown to me that was heading in the same direction. 

It began 1998 with the pastor teaching on paganism within Christian traditions.  Then He taught on various subjects to include the need to be a community, identity, purpose, and aspects of the ancient Hebrew culture.  Then in 2002 he begins to teach and observe the Jewish Festivals.  This was not forced upon the members however.   So, I begin to look into this matter myself through independent sources.  Now, by witness and inspiration of the Holy Spirit I have come to observe and worship in the manner of the Holy Days and Sabbaths.  We observe Sabbath on Friday after sundown as a community and still worship on Sunday as a community as well.  I have learned elements and truths about Christ that I could have never understood independent of this transition.

Now I observe Spiritual Torah not in the old letter of the law that my carnal man was subjected to but could never accomplish, but in spirit and truth as I am now spiritual.  I can in no fashion earn my own justification for salvation, righteousness, and reward; but I can emulate my Lord who is Torah in spirit as led by the Holy Spirit.  I observe the Holy Days and Sabbaths as memorials with the same motivations of other Christians worship and observing Easter. 


Like I have always said, todays Christianity is closer to Judaism than it is to New Testament Christian theology.

daq

  • Guest
Epistle of Barnabas Circa 80-120CE
« Reply #2 on: Thu Feb 03, 2011 - 06:23:07 »
Belated - Good Post!  ::smile::

The following may not have been written by the actual "Barnabas" mentioned in the NT, (the author is unknown and the name given to the work is a pseudo-name from scholars) but the document is authentic and the dating by scholars is first century Christian Era. The Epistle of Barnabas reveals that the teaching of supernal-spiritual Torah was already circulating right from the very beginning of the first century ekklesia of Yeshua. I am not suggesting that the work should be considered as canonical but rather simply that it proves that some of the very earliest congregational leaders taught the spiritual and supernal applications of living Torah. The question then becomes: does the Way of thinking comply with and adhere to the teachings of the Master?

The Epistle of Barnabas (J.B.Lightfoot Translation)
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/barnabas.html
Circa 80-120 C.E.

Barnabas 10:1-5
1. But forasmuch as Moses said; Ye shall not eat seine nor eagle nor falcon nor crow nor any fish which hath no scale upon it, he received in his understanding three ordinances.
2. Yea and further He saith unto them in Deuteronomy; And I will lay as a covenant upon this people My ordinances. So then it is not a commandment of G-d that they should not bite with their teeth, but Moses spake it in spirit.
3. Accordingly he mentioned the swine with this intent. Thou shalt not cleave, saith he, to such men who are like unto swine; that is, when they are in luxury they forget the L-rd, but when they are in want they recognize the L-rd, just as the swine when it eateth knoweth not his lord, but when it is hungry it crieth out, and when it has received food again it is silent.
4. Neither shalt thou eat eagle nor falcon nor kite nor crow. Thou shalt not, He saith, cleave unto, or be likened to, such men who know not how to provide food for themselves by toil and sweat, but in their lawlessness seize what belongeth to others, and as if they were walking in guilelessness watch and search about for some one to rob in their rapacity, just as these birds alone do not provide food for themselves, but sit idle and seek how they may eat the meat that belongeth to others, being pestilent in their evil-doings.
5. And thou shalt not eat, saith He, lamprey nor polypus nor cuttle fish. Thou shalt not, He meaneth, become like unto such men, who are desperately wicked, and are already condemned to death, just as these fishes alone are accursed and swim in the depths, not swimming on the surface like the rest, but dwell on the ground beneath the deep sea.

Barnabas 10:9-11
9. Concerning meats then Moses received three decrees to this effect and uttered them in a spiritual sense; but they accepted them according to the lust of the flesh, as though they referred to eating.
10. And David also receiveth knowledge of the same three decrees, and saith; Blessed is the man who hath not gone in the council of the ungodly--even as the fishes go in darkness into the depths; and hath not stood in the path of sinners--just as they who pretend to fear the L-rd sin like swine; and hath not sat on the seat of the destroyers--as the birds that are seated for prey. Ye have now the complete lesson concerning eating.
11. Again Moses saith; Ye shall everything that divideth the hoof and cheweth the cud. What meaneth he? He that receiveth the food knoweth Him that giveth him the food, and being refreshed appeareth to rejoice in him. Well said he, having regard to the commandment. What then meaneth he? Cleave unto those that fear the L-rd, with those who meditate in their heart on the distinction of the word which they have received, with those who tell of the ordinances of the L-rd and keep them, with those who know that meditation is a work of gladness and who chew the cud of the word of the L-rd. But why that which divideth the hoof? Because the righteous man both walketh in this world, and at the same time looketh for the holy world to come. Ye see how wise a lawgiver was Moses.


Do these analogies and concepts comply with what Yeshua teaches in the four Gospels? Yes it does, and it also leaves Torah intact, as opposed to becoming "abolished" or "extinct" as is taught in so many pulpits and churches of the modern shepherds of today.

Matthew 5:13-19 KJV
13. Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break [GSN#3089 luo] one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Please notice that the word "luo" of v.19 does not mean primarily "to break" the least of the commandments but rather "to loosen" them. How difficult could it have been for King James and his court to translate the Greek word LUO into LOOSEN? It is those which "loosen the commandments" and teach others to do so which are seriously jeopardizing their own standing according to the Master.

Strong's Ref. #3089
Romanized  luo
Pronounced loo'-o
a primary verb; to "loosen" (literally or figuratively):
KJV--break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-)loose, melt, put off. Compare GSN4486.

Matthew 5:19 RSV
19. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


HOWEVER ~ What does Yeshua say about physical "eating" and defilement?

Mark 7:13-23 KJV
13. Making the word of G-d of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
14. And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15. There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16.  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17. And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18. And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19. Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20. And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22. Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23. All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


So then we must force our own doctrine to fit. Thus the teaching of Barnabas Ch.10 quoted above agrees with the Master. And what of the unclean birds? They are primarily the birds of prey as the first century Epistle of Barnabas also notes. And according to Yeshua "the fowls of the air" represent the wicked one, the devil, and Satan.

Leviticus 11:13-19 KJV
13. And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
14. And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
15. Every raven after his kind;
16. And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
17. And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
18. And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
19. And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

Matthew 13:3-4 KJV
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Matthew 13:18-19 KJV
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mark 4:4, 15 KJV
4. And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
15. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Luke 8:5, 12 KJV
5. A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
12. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.


Therefore do not be like "the fowls of the air" because they represent the prince of the power of the air. The commandment cannot be about "do not eat this, do not eat that" but rather because the unclean fowls and birds of prey steal what does not belong to them and they always prefer to swoop in and steal the YOUNG and VULNERABLE. This supernal Torah understanding then applies not only to all believers but especially to those teachers which are spreading and promulgating falsehoods, particularly subverting the minds of young new-born believers, waiting and watching like the red dragon for any new child to be delivered, so that they may devour the child with falsehoods and indoctrinate them into their false doctrines, (whether knowingly or not).

Revelation 12:2-4 KJV
2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Isaiah 9:14-16 KJV
14. Therefore the L-rd will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.
15. The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.
16. For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.


Peace-Shalom
In Yeshua
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 08, 2011 - 08:44:49 by daq »

daq

  • Guest
Ezekiel 44 - Zadok Priesthood
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 07, 2011 - 06:44:34 »
EZEKIEL 44  ~  ZADOK PRIESTHOOD

Aaron - Eleazar (Lazarus) - Phinehas - Zadok


1 Chronicles 6:3-15 KJV
3. And the children of Amram; Aaron, and Moses, and Miriam. The sons also of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.
4. Eleazar begat Phinehas, Phinehas begat Abishua,
5. And Abishua begat Bukki, and Bukki begat Uzzi,
6. And Uzzi begat Zerahiah, and Zerahiah begat Meraioth,
7. Meraioth begat Amariah, and Amariah begat Ahitub,
8. And Ahitub begat Zadok, and Zadok begat Ahimaaz,
9. And Ahimaaz begat Azariah, and Azariah begat Johanan,
10. And Johanan begat Azariah, (he it is that executed the priest's office in the temple that Solomon built in Jerusalem:)
11. And Azariah begat Amariah, and Amariah begat Ahitub,
12. And Ahitub begat Zadok, and Zadok begat Shallum,
13. And Shallum begat Hilkiah, and Hilkiah begat Azariah,
14. And Azariah begat Seraiah, and Seraiah begat Jehozadak,
15. And Jehozadak went into captivity, when the L-rd carried away Judah and Jerusalem by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar.


------------------------------

Ezekiel 44:15-18 KJV
15. But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the L-rd G-d:
16. They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17. And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen (HSN#6593 pishteh) garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18. They shall have linen bonnets (turbans) upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird (HSN#2296 chagar) themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.


Strong's Ref. #6593
Romanized  pishteh
Pronounced pish-teh'
from the same as HSN6580 as in the sense of comminuting; linen (i.e. the thread, as carded):
KJV--flax, linen.

Strong's Ref. #6580
Romanized  pash
Pronounced pash
probably from an unused root meaning to disintegrate; stupidity (as a result of grossness or of degeneracy):
KJV--extremity.

Strong's Ref. #2296
Romanized  chagar
Pronounced khaw-gar'
a primitive root; to gird on (as a belt, armor, etc.):
KJV--be able to put on, be afraid, appointed, gird, restrain, X on every side.

The linen garments are to be loose fitting, not binding, a relaxed or "degenerated" material, as flowing, and not causing any sweat like as would be caused by wool, (also wool being a rough and irritable material to the skin). The word translated as "gird" (chagar) might better be understood more appropriately as "to bind about" (with fearfulness implied in the meaning of the word). What would cause "a priest" to come before YHWH with an improper kind of fear? What would cause "a priest" to sweat? In other words the linen garments we are to wear, when we come before YHWH, should not cause any distractions, should not be constricting in any way, and most of all should not cause one to "sweat" due to an improper kind of FEAR (not the proper "godly fear" out of respect but rather "a fearfulness" coming from guilt and causing us to draw away, bind up, spiritually "sweat").

In other words the garments are the CONSCIENCE. The supernal-spiritual understanding undoubtedly speaks of spiritual linen garments which are devoid of any lingering guilt from a guilty conscience, (caused by the "wool of sin" in a garment analogy which is similar to the "leaven of sin" bread analogy).

Acts 24:14-16 KJV
14. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the G-d of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15. And have hope toward G-d, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16. And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward G-d, and toward men.

Hebrews 10:21-22 KJV
21. And having an high priest over the house of G-d;
22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


------------------------------

Ezekiel 44:19-20 KJV
19. And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.
20. Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.


1 Corinthians 11:14 KJV (the Nazarite Vow had been fulfilled)
14. Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?


------------------------------

Ezekiel 44:21 KJV
21. Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.


Ephesians 5:17-18 KJV
17. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the L-rd is.
18. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit.


------------------------------

Ezekiel 44:22-23 KJV
22. Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.
23. And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.


2 Corinthians 6:14-17 KJV
14. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15. And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16. And what agreement hath the temple of G-d with idols? for ye are the temple of the living G-d; as G-d hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be my people.
17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the L-rd, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.


------------------------------

Ezekiel 44:24 KJV
24. And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.


Acts 13:14-16 KJV
14. But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
15. And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
16. Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear G-d, give audience.

Acts 13:42-44 KJV
42. And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of G-d.
44. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of G-d.

Acts 17:1-3 KJV
1. Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3. Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.


------------------------------

Ezekiel 44:25-27 KJV
25. And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26. And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27. And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the L-rd G-d.


Only with our own immediate physical family members are the saints authorized by Scripture to have the nearness of fellowship with, convene with, congregate with, dine with, entertain with "the dead" (meaning of course "the spiritually dead").

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 KJV
11. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13. But them that are without G-d judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


------------------------------

Ezekiel 44:28 KJV
28. And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.


"Ye see how wise a lawgiver was Paulos …"

Peace-Shalom
In Yeshua
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 08, 2011 - 08:46:40 by daq »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Ezekiel 44 - Zadok Priesthood
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 07, 2011 - 06:44:34 »

daq

  • Guest
Re: Christians living Torah
« Reply #4 on: Thu Feb 10, 2011 - 06:06:34 »
A ten-foot stalk of grain once said that the Maker did not perform miracles. One of the greatest miracles of all creation is the grain of seed. I know a One who keeps the seedlings of many different and beautiful species for his garden. Each year before Spring the various specimens of dried seedlings are brought forth from the storehouse, sown in their given places in the garden, and watered plentifully, all according to the pleasure of the Planter.

Once upon a time there was a Teacher and his disciple. One day the disciple came to the Sukkah for a study with the Teacher, and the pupil noticed that there was a brown paper packet full of old dried seeds placed upon the table where the two had reclined to immerse in discourse and word. And it came to pass that in his carelessness the pupil accidentally knocked over a cup of water which had been placed beside him at the table. And so the water splashed and flowed out across the table, yet not soaking, but only slightly splattering several drops of moisture upon the packet of old dried seeds. Unfazed, as if knowing this would eventually occur, the Teacher snatched up the packet in his hand and quickly took the seeds outside to sow them in the garden. As the pupil watched the Teacher, somewhat stunned by the preeminence given to this matter over and above the study time, he realized that the seeds must have been stored and kept by the Teacher for a very long time, yet the moment at hand had now become their moment to shine. And so, not understanding exactly how seeds work, he asked the Master what the reason was for the sudden immediacy? And the Gardener replied: Because the seeds are not dead but merely sleeping, and as soon as they receive any moisture whatsoever they are awakened, no matter how long they have been sleeping, BECAUSE THEIR WORM NEVER DIES…

And then the disciple began to understand the true miracle of the seed, and the Word spoke to me and said, Whoso of all the families of the earth that will not come up to the holy city of above to worship the King, upon them shall be NO RAIN. And I understood that of all the grains with hardened shells, repelling the watering of the Word, (even the mighty ten-foot Egyptian wheat stalks) they too shall fall to the ground. And while they shall receive no rain, yet they also shall never forget the words of the Master, and neither shall their worm die, because the Words of the Master shall never pass away…

 ::smile::

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Christians living Torah
« Reply #4 on: Thu Feb 10, 2011 - 06:06:34 »

daq

  • Guest
Seudah - The Festive Meal
« Reply #5 on: Fri Feb 11, 2011 - 08:53:35 »
Seudah  ~  The Festive Meal

The greatest of all of the prophets to come before Yeshua HaMashiyach was of course John the Baptist. John was not only the forerunner of The Christ but he also had the privilege of announcing the New Covenant of Betrothal and the arrival of the Holy Bridegroom!

John 3:27-29 KJV
27. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.


The Marriage Proposal
1) Shidduch: "Matchmaking" - The meeting of the bride and groom.
Christ the Groom decides that He will give everything for His bride!
2) Vort: "Betrothal" - Some families sign a contract which is called Vort.
The "tenaim" (conditions) are signed which equates to a covenant.
Christ confirms the betrothal covenant "with many" - Pesach Seder - Last Supper.
3) The Mikvah: "Ceremonial washing"

The Wedding Day
Dedication-Sanctification - A Day of Atonement (and a fasting day until the arrival at the Cheder Yichud). The groom wears a white robe: a "kittel" which is much the same as what the High Priest wears on Yom Kippur. This is the same description as that of Yeshua in Rev.1:13.
1) Bedekin: "Veiling" - Performed in the Bride's Chamber before going to the "Chuppah" (Christ identifies His Bride before the final ceremony).
2) Chuppah: Seven Times the bride circles around the groom in the traditional ceremony. It is sometimes called the Ceremony of Lights. Again, the symbolism is of Christ in the midst of the Seven Candlesticks:
Rev. 1:13 ~ "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And IN THE MIDST of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle"…

THE AGE OF THE GREAT CONGREGATION

3) Ketuvah: The opening and reading of the contract, which must be signed by the Two Witnesses, is legally binding, (Aramaic) and becomes the property of the bride. The Ketuvah-contract is opened in Revelation 6. The ceremony begins when the bride is in the heavenly Chuppah, (heaven is throne room of the mind). The contract is fully opened when the Seventh Seal is removed.
4) Kiddushin: The ring is placed on the right hand of the bride. The Two Witnesses must affirm. Betrothal blessings are recited by a Rabbi-Teacher. The first cup of wine is shared after the recital of the betrothal blessings. Yeshua HaMashiyach, the Nazarene, promised He would in no way drink of the fruit of the vine until He drinks it anew with us in the Kingdom of the Father. (Laodicea spewed out?)
5) Sheva Brachot: The Seven Blessings are recited, the second cup of wine is shared - both drink of the cup. In many ceremonies the groom traditionally "breaks the glass" after the Seven Blessings are recited. The Two Witnesses are sent out to proclaim their testimony.
6) Cheder Yichud: "Room of Privacy" - The Two Witnesses must affirm that the groom and bride went into the private chamber in order for the wedding to be official.
7) Seudah: "The Festive Meal" - Marriage Supper of the Lamb
"Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb". These are the "friends" or "children of the bridechamber" (also "ten virgins") and the rest of the family including the Warrior Friends of the King. "Go out into the highways and byways and fill the wedding banquet hall! Everything is furnished!" (BY THE FATHER IN HIS TANAK-WORD). Anyone found in the banquet hall without a gown will be cast out because everything was furnished and prepared for the guests and the required garment must be put on! (As we "put on Christ" Galatians 3:27).

Revelation 19:7-9 KJV
7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of G-d.




IS THE EKKLESIA-CHURCH ("TEN VIRGINS") THE BRIDE?
PRAY ABOUT IT ~ FOR HOW DO YOU KNOW FOR SURE?


Matthew 21:4-11 KJV (Palm Sunday)
4. All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
5. Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an donkey, and a colt the foal of an donkey.
6. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
7. And brought the donkey, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.
8. And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
9. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the L-rd; Hosanna in the highest.
10. And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
11. And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Matthew 22:2-13 KJV
2. The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3. And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6. And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12. And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 12:35-42 KJV
35. Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36. And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41. Then Peter said unto him, L-rd, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42. And the L-rd said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Revelation 3:19-20 KJV (Laodicea)
19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.




The Traditional Katuvah Document still in use for over 2000 years:
Traditional Aramaic Orthodox Text - English Translation
With the pertinent blanks filled in (color - parenthesis).

On the __________ day of the week, the __________ day of the month of __________, in the year five thousand seven hundred ________________, as we reckon time here in ________________, the groom ________________, (Yeshua HaMashiyach) son of ________________, (YHWH) said to the bride ________________, (New Jerusalem) daughter of ________________, (Zion) "Be my wife according to the statutes of Moses and Israel. And I will work for, esteem, feed and support you as is the custom of Jewish men who work for, esteem, feed and support their wives faithfully. And I will give you ________________, (Eternal Life) and I will provide you food and clothing and necessities and your conjugal rights according to accepted custom." And the bride ________________, (New Jerusalem) agreed to become his wife. And this dowry that she brought from her ________________, (Wages of Sin) house, whether in silver, gold, jewelry, clothing, furnishings or bedding, the groom ________________, (Yeshua) accepted responsibility for all in the sum of ________________, (Wages of Sin) zuzim, and agreed to add to this amount from his own assets the sum of ________________, (His Death) zuzim, for a total of ________________, (His Death For Our Sins) zuzim. The groom ________________, (Yeshua) said: "The obligation of this ketubah, this dowry and this additional sum, I accept upon myself and my heirs after me, to be paid from all the best part of all my property that I now possess or may hereafter acquire, real and personal. From this day forward, all my property, even the shirt on my back, shall be mortgaged and liened for the payment of this ketubah, dowry and additional sum, whether during my lifetime or thereafter." The obligation of this ketubah, this dowry and this additional sum, was accepted by ________________, (Yeshua) the groom with the strictness established for ketubot and additional sums customary for the daughters of Israel, in accordance with the decrees by our sages, of blessed memory. This ketubah is not to be regarded as a formality or as a perfunctory legal form. We have established the acceptance on the part of ________________, (Yeshua) son of ________________, (YHWH) the groom to ________________, (New Jerusalem) daughter of ________________, (Zion) the bride, of this contract, all of which is stated and specified above, with an article fit for that purpose. And all shall be valid and binding.
___________________________________________ Witness
___________________________________________ Witness
(Must be signed by the TWO WITNESSES)

The Seven-Sealed document is completely opened in Revelation 8:1 with the opening of the Seventh Seal. The bride goes to the wedding during the Seven Seals and the Marriage Supper-Seudah always comes AFTER the wedding. The Seudah Festive Meal is for the "guests and friends" of the Groom. The Seven Trumpets (chronologically speaking) then would be as the call to the battle of the warriors, the sons of Zion, the army and Warrior-Friends of the King ~ "All Israel"…

Peace-Shalom
In Yeshua!
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 05, 2011 - 08:30:45 by daq »

daq

  • Guest
Re: Christians living Torah
« Reply #6 on: Fri Feb 25, 2011 - 21:35:56 »
Tefillin ~

The Jewish Virtual Library: Tefillin
--|"
Tefillin are two small black boxes with black straps attached to them; Jewish men are required to place one box on their head and tie the other one on their arm each weekday morning. Tefillin are biblical in origin, and are commanded within the context of several laws outlining a Jew's relationship to God. "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. Take to heart these instructions with which I charge you this day. Impress them upon your children. Recite them when you stay at home and when you are away, when you lie down and when you get up. Bind them as a sign on your hand and let them serve as a frontlet between your eyes" (Deuteronomy 6:5-8).

Certain Jewish groups including probably the Sadducees, and definitely the medieval Karaites understood the last verse to be figurative; it means only that one should always be preoccupied with words of Torah, as if they were in front of one's eyes. The Pharisees, however, took the text literally; the words of the Torah are to be inscribed on a scroll and placed directly between one's eyes and on one's arm. Tefillin are wrapped around the arm seven times, and the straps on the head are adjusted so they fit snugly. The text that is inserted inside the two boxes of Tefillin is hand-written by a scribe, and consists of the four sets of biblical verses in which Tefillin are commanded (Exodus 13:1-10, 11-16; Deuteronomy 6:4-9, 11:13-21).
"|--
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/tefillin.html

Like The Four Winds of Heaven ~

Exodus 13:1-10
1. And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.
3. And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand YHWH brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
4. This day came ye out in the month Abib.
5. And it shall be when YHWH shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee, a land flowing with milk and honey, that thou shalt keep this service in this month.
6. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to YHWH.
7. Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
8. And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which YHWH did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.
9. And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Torah of YHWH may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath YHWH brought thee out of Egypt.
10. Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year.

Exodus 13:11-16
11. And it shall be when YHWH shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, as he sware unto thee and to thy fathers, and shall give it thee,
12. That thou shalt set apart unto YHWH all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be YHWH's.
13. And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.
14. And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand YHWH brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:
15. And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that YHWH slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to YHWH all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.
16. And it shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand YHWH brought us forth out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9
4. Hear, O Israel: YHWH 'Eloheynuw YHWH 'echad!
5. And thou shalt love YHWH thy 'Elohey with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7. And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Deuteronomy 11:13-21
13. And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love YHWH your 'Elohey, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
14. That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
15. And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.
16. Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
17. And then the wrath of YHWH be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which YHWH giveth you.
18. Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19. And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20. And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21. That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which YHWH sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.


Ezekiel 36:22-27
22. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith 'Adonay YHWH; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am YHWH, saith 'Adonay YHWH, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all ha'erets-owt, and will bring you into your own 'adamah.
25. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel 37:4-14
4. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of YHWH.
5. Thus saith 'Adonay YHWH unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am YHWH.
7. So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith 'Adonay YHWH; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith 'Adonay YHWH; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the 'adamah of Israel.
13. And ye shall know that I am YHWH, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14. And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own 'adamah, then shall ye know that I YHWH have spoken it, and performed it, saith YHWH.


However, one cannot purchase supernal Tefillin for gold or money.
Only Rabboni Yeshua gives it properly placed in and upon the forehead.


Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of G-d.


Tefillin is the washing of water in the Word daily (Mitzvah)

Ephesians 5:25-27 KJV
25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


See also Re: On the Law and Christians
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2011, 08:25:59 PM »

Shabbat Shalom!
In Yeshua
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 16:58:03 by daq »

daq

  • Guest
Re: Christians living Torah
« Reply #7 on: Fri Mar 04, 2011 - 18:53:26 »
THE GREEK STOLE

A study of the garment called the "STOLE" (as opposed to the "CHITON" or "HIMATION"). The "stole" is supernal, introspective, (as is all Torah) and spiritual in meaning and concept. The "chiton" and "himation" are more generally used to describe the outer layers of clothing. In the supernal sense, the "stole" covers the soul, and the "chiton" and the "himation" concern the flesh, (even typologically speaking as "himation" is employed in both Rev.3:4&16:15 as the "garments" we are to "keep" from becoming soiled). The supernal meaning of the "stole of the soul" is born out when one does a word study beginning with the teachings of the Master in the Gospel accounts, (as always) and concluding study in the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua.

Matthew 5:40 KJV
40. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, (GSN#5509 chiton) let him have thy cloak (GSN#2440 himation) also.


Strong's Ref. #5509
Romanized  chiton
Pronounced khee-tone'
of foreign origin [HSN3801]; a tunic or shirt:
KJV--clothes, coat, garment.

Strong's Ref. #2440
Romanized  himation
Pronounced him-at'-ee-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of ennumi (to put on); a dress (inner or outer):
KJV--apparel, cloke, clothes, garment, raiment, robe, vesture.

In Matthew 5:40 Yeshua uses chiton and himation in the physical sense, "if someone takes your chiton give him also your himation". The phrase exemplifies a purely non-violent physical kindness even to your enemies, (turn the other cheek, etc.). The same follows true throughout the Gospel accounts except for the "STOLE" which is always used in a supernal capacity. The Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes loved to make long prayers on the street corners and in the market places in their long stoles of the outward appearance. The first place where the word "stole" appears the passage clearly indicates that Yeshua spoke the words IN HIS DOCTRINE, (which is always supernal and spiritual in meaning).

Mark 12:38-40 KJV
38. And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, (GSN#4749 stole) and love salutations in the marketplaces,
39. And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:
40. Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Luke 20:46 KJV
46. Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, (GSN#4749 stole) and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;


Strong's Ref. #4749
Romanized  stole
Pronounced stol-ay'
from GSN4724; equipment, i.e. (specifically) a "stole" or long-fitting gown (as a mark of dignity):
KJV--long clothing (garment), (long) robe.

The above two verses are two of the four places where the word "stole" appears in the Gospels and the word does not appear again after the Gospels until the Book of the Revelation. The other two places in the Gospels are as follows:

Mark 16:5 KJV
3. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4. And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
5. And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; (GSN#4749 stole) and they were affrighted.


So the question then becomes how do we acquire such a garment? Or is it already given to us automatically upon an initial confession and profession of faith in Yeshua? After all, we are indeed truly saved by grace through faith according to the Scripture. The last place outside of the Book of the Revelation where "stole" is found is in the passage containing the parable of the prodigal son, (who is the YOUNGER of the two sons in the parable).

Luke 15:17-24 KJV
17. And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18. I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19. And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, (GSN#4749 stole) and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23. And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


The prodigal son finally comes to his senses after a change in his attitude and his mindset. His pride is broken and he realizes how foolish he has been squandering his inheritance, wandering in the "wilderness" and "desert" of his prodigal journey, and ends up feeding swine during a great famine. He then is willing to be counted as a "dog" under the table, waiting for crumbs to fall like the Canaanite woman of Tyre, (Mt.15:21-28) or as an equal with the hired servants at home instead of the son which he once was. And now that he is starving, (a spiritual "famine") where does he return to? He returns to THE FATHER. Only then is he given the STOLE, for he was dead, (to his father) but now he is alive again, and he was lost, and now is found. The actions which the prodigal son took were to repent, (change his mindset and the direction of his walk, path, or journey) and return to the Father.

In all of the passages of the Revelation where the saints are said to be given "white robes" (Rev.6:11) or are said to already have "white robes" (Rev.7:13) the word employed for robe is again stole. However, the one final place where the word is found changes the perspective of everything if one properly understands what is being said. The KJV (translated from the Textus Receptus) is in opposition to the GNT Morph Texts. The KJV and YGB are therefore posted first below because they both follow the Textus Receptus.

Revelation 22:14 KJV
14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Revelation 22:14 YGB (Young's Literal Bible)
14. 'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;


The KJV and Young's say nothing of the "robe" or "stole" because they are both following the same manuscript. However, the Greek GNT Morph retains an entirely different phrase in Rev.22:14a.

Revelation 22:14 RSV (Revised Standard - GNT Morph)
14. Blessed are those who wash their robes, (GSN#4749 stole) that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Revelation 22:14 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented - GNT Morph)
14. Makarioi hoi plunontes tas stolas auton,{*} hinaestai he exousia auton epi to Xulon tes Zoes kaitois pulosin eiselthosin eis ten polin.

Revelation 22:14 LIT (Literal Bible w/Vertical Strong's Ref.#s)
14.
   |3107| Blessed
   |9999| {are}
   |3588| those
   |4150| washing
   |3588| the
   |4749| robes
   |0846| of them,
   |2443| so that
   |2071| will be
   |3588| the
   |1849| authority
   |0846| of them
   |1909| over
   |3588| the
   |3586| Tree
   |2222| of Life,
   |2532| and
   |3588| by the
   |4440| gates
   |1525| they may enter
   |1519| into
   |3588| the
   |4172| city.

Revelation 22:14 WEY (Weymouth's New Testament - GNT Morph)
14. Blessed are those who wash their robes (GSN#4749 stole) clean, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life, and may go through the gates into the city.

Revelation 22:14 DRB (Darby's Bible - GNT Morph)
14. Blessed are they that wash their robes, (GSN#4749 stole) that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city.


Which phrase then is the correct one?
The Scripture defends itself …

Revelation 7:14 KJV
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, (GSN#4749 stole) and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:14 TUA
14. Kai eireka auto, "Kurie mou,{*} su oidas." Kai eipen moi, "Houtoi eisin hoi erchomenoi ek testhlipseos tes megales kai eplunan {*} tas stolas auton kai eleukanan autas en to haimati tou Arniou."

Revelation 7:14 (Textus Receptus & GNT Morph are in agreement)
"eplunan tas stolas auton"
"having washed the stoles of them"


Revelation 22:14
"plunontes tas stolas auton"
"washing (to wash) the stoles of them"


The entire phrase is missing from the Textus Receptus in Rev.22:14 and is replaced with: "doing his commandments". However, since nearly the same exact phrase appears in Rev.7:14, both in the Textus Receptus and the GNT Morph, we can be fairly confident that the Textus Receptus, (and therefore the KJV and Young's) are probably in error concerning Rev.22:14. The past-tense inflection of GSN#4150 "pluno" (to wash or launder clothes) in Rev.7:14 is the only difference from the present/future-tense of the same word used in the same phrase of Rev.22:14.

Why is this one single phrase of Rev.22:14 so absolutely critical? Because according to the passage the only ones who have the right-authority-privilege, (GSN#1849 exousia) to the Tree of Life and to enter into the gates of the holy city are those who wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb, and thus, making their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. It requires action on the part of the professing believer, actions which are based upon faith, prayer, and the daily washing in the water of the Word. Christ Yeshua is the Door, the Way, and the gate is the door-frame or body which the Door is placed inside of. And the gates of the city are the only entrances into the holy city New Jerusalem, (and each gate is of a pearl of great price). Everyone must be graffed into the Olive Tree of YHWH, by faith, even as the Canaanite woman of Tyre and the prodigal second son, (a change of thinking and mindset). And the Olive tree of YHWH represents the two houses: both the house of Israel and the house of Judah, ALL ISRAEL (Jer.11:16-17) and there is now only one fold and One Shepherd.

And the gates are the TWELVE TRIBES OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL

Revelation 21:12-13
12. And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve messengers, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel:
13. On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Revelation 22:14-15
14. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Shabbat Shalom!
In Yeshua!!

Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14971
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Christians living Torah
« Reply #8 on: Sun Mar 20, 2011 - 11:30:19 »
Interesting post here.  Is this requoted from somewhere? (If so, where?)

The way the phrase "their worm never dies" is constructed here, it gives me the idea that the "worm" is actually a part of the seed - the new shoot of the plant.  And that this "worm" is simply lying dormant within the seed, waiting for the water to awaken it, so it can begin growing.

It is conceivable that this might be an antiquated understanding of how a seed works, but I couldn't find that sort of logic in any of the normal places I would look for such a thing (Manners & Customs of the Bible, several commentaries, Google).

Can you say more on this?  And, if possible, can you refer us back to your source for this understanding?

Jarrod

A ten-foot stalk of grain once said that the Maker did not perform miracles. One of the greatest miracles of all creation is the grain of seed. I know a One who keeps the seedlings of many different and beautiful species for his garden. Each year before Spring the various specimens of dried seedlings are brought forth from the storehouse, sown in their given places in the garden, and watered plentifully, all according to the pleasure of the Planter.

Once upon a time there was a Teacher and his disciple. One day the disciple came to the Sukkah for a study with the Teacher, and the pupil noticed that there was a brown paper packet full of old dried seeds placed upon the table where the two had reclined to immerse in discourse and word. And it came to pass that in his carelessness the pupil accidentally knocked over a cup of water which had been placed beside him at the table. And so the water splashed and flowed out across the table, yet not soaking, but only slightly splattering several drops of moisture upon the packet of old dried seeds. Unfazed, as if knowing this would eventually occur, the Teacher snatched up the packet in his hand and quickly took the seeds outside to sow them in the garden. As the pupil watched the Teacher, somewhat stunned by the preeminence given to this matter over and above the study time, he realized that the seeds must have been stored and kept by the Teacher for a very long time, yet the moment at hand had now become their moment to shine. And so, not understanding exactly how seeds work, he asked the Master what the reason was for the sudden immediacy? And the Gardener replied: Because the seeds are not dead but merely sleeping, and as soon as they receive any moisture whatsoever they are awakened, no matter how long they have been sleeping, BECAUSE THEIR WORM NEVER DIES…

And then the disciple began to understand the true miracle of the seed, and the Word spoke to me and said, Whoso of all the families of the earth that will not come up to the holy city of above to worship the King, upon them shall be NO RAIN. And I understood that of all the grains with hardened shells, repelling the watering of the Word, (even the mighty ten-foot Egyptian wheat stalks) they too shall fall to the ground. And while they shall receive no rain, yet they also shall never forget the words of the Master, and neither shall their worm die, because the Words of the Master shall never pass away…

 ::smile::

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Christians living Torah
« Reply #8 on: Sun Mar 20, 2011 - 11:30:19 »

daq

  • Guest
Re: Christians living Torah
« Reply #9 on: Sun Mar 20, 2011 - 15:33:59 »
Hi Jarrod
Whenever I quote from a source outside of myself I will always provide a link. If it is a book I will state the author, title, and page number. However, the thinking which you have quoted is not necessarily my own but comes directly from the Word. The following is a small portion of what is to be found in the Scripture, (and I certainly do not claim to have found all of it either).

Daniel 7 is written in Aramaic and, unfortunately, the original Strong's definitions of the Aramaic words are not as concise and thorough as are the Hebrew Strong's definitions. There are certain words which have been somewhat skewed in their rendering, (more latitude was allowed to themselves with the Aramaic I suppose). For instance the word `iyr in Hebrew is town, city, outpost, watch, etc., but the very same word `iyr in Aramaic is translated only as WATCHER (i.e. Dan.4 is also written in Aramaic). The word "geshem" is another such word and we are blessed to have had this chapter of Daniel given in Aramaic, (perhaps this is a large part of the reason why).

Daniel 7:11 KJV
11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body (HSN#1655 geshem) destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


Strong's Ref. #1655
Romanized  geshem
Pronounced gheh'-shem
(Aramaic) apparently the same as HSN1653; used in a peculiar sense, the body (probably for the [figuratively] idea of a hard rain):
KJV--body.

"Apparently" it is the same as the Hebrew #1653 geshem.

Strong's Ref. #1653
Romanized  geshem
Pronounced gheh'-shem
from HSN1652; a shower:
KJV--rain, shower.

Moreover, the Aramaic word is "BODY" with the inference of a "HARD RAIN". The Hebrew "geshem" is extant throughout the Scripture, (and in some really interesting places).

Isaiah 55:9-13 KJV
9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10. For as the rain (HSN#1653 geshem) cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12. For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the L-rd for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.


"RAIN" therefore concerns the Resurrection "BODY"
(The saints never die but fall asleep like seeds which go dormant).

Joel 2:23-25 KJV
23. Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the L-rd your G-d: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, (HSN#1653 geshem) the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.


We are like seeds according to the Scripture. And, in fact, agriculture taught these things for thousands of years before we all somehow got talked into being herded into giant cities and concrete jungles.

YHWH gives the seed its body accordingly as it pleases him:

1 Corinthians 15:35-44 KJV
35. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36. Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38. But G-d giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


Now therefore if we already understand that the holy city Jerusalem is the mount Zion and heavenly Jerusalem OF ABOVE (Gal.4:25-31, Heb.12:22-24) then perhaps we might properly understand the statement concerning the RAIN in Zechariah 14.

Zechariah 14:17-18 RSV
17. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem (of above) to worship the King, the L-rd of hosts, there will be no rain (HSN#1653 geshem) upon them.
18. And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then upon them shall come the plague with which the L-rd afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths. 
19. This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths.


All of it is symbolic according to the totality of Scripture: "Egypt" are those who live according to "the flesh" and therefore they shall receive "no rain" (no resurrection unto life everlasting). However, they do receive a "resurrection of damnation" (Jn.5:29) and in that place "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched"…

Mark 9:43-48 KJV
43. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of G-d with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Some say this passage is not supposed to be there:
However, I know for a fact it is …


Peace-Shalom
In Yeshua

daq

  • Guest
Israel ~ Elam and the Four Winds of Heaven
« Reply #10 on: Thu May 05, 2011 - 03:12:00 »
Israel ~ Elam and the Four Winds of Heaven

The question of how the reborn manchild nation of Israel comes forth from the nations has much to do with where the northern tribes of Israel, also known as Samaria, were taken to in ancient times and the prophecies concerning the house of Israel, as opposed to the house of Judah of old times. In fact, most all of prophecy, which has been interpreted by the modern prophecy teachers as being directed at the Gentiles, actually has to do with the same overall topic; the restoration of Israel and Judah; which together as one stick are all Israel. The northern tribes were taken to the cities of the Medes in the 9th year of Hoshea 723-722bc.


2 Kings 17:5-6
5. Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years.
6. In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.


In the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah, who reigned 11 years, the prophet Jeremiah is given a prophecy concerning Elam. This we know was either 599-598bc or 598-597bc because Zedekiah was the final king of Judah before "the city was smitten" and the temple burned down by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar. It was about a hundred and twenty five years after the northern tribes had gone into captivity to the cities of the Medes.

Jeremiah 49:34-39
34. The word of YHWH that came to Jeremiah the prophet against Elam in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, saying,
35. Thus saith YHWH of hosts; Behold, I will break the bow of Elam, the chief of their might.
36. And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.
37. For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies, and before them that seek their life: and I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith YHWH; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:
38. And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith YHWH.
39. But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith YHWH.


Elam was to be scattered to the four winds of heaven. The province of Elam includes the cities of the Medes. From there it is all about the four winds of heaven found in prophecy. The prophecy recorded in Daniel 8 opens up in "Shushan the citadel" which is also stated to be in the province of Elam.

Daniel 8:2
2. And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

Daniel 8:8
8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


Elam-Media-Persia scattered to the Four Winds of Heaven:

Daniel 11:4
4. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.


'Adonay says that he will bring Israel back out from the nations into which they were scattered; and call them forth from their graves. However, the children of Israel were polluted and mixed in with the seed of the nations to where they were dispersed.

Ezekiel 37:9-10
9. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the 'Adonay YHWH; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.


And that seed is evil seed which must be removed and eradicated by the High Priest. The High Priest is of course, Yeshua, the new mediator of the covenant and High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek, who now is raised up and seated on high at the right hand of YHWH, officiating in the temple, making intercession for the saints, and who lives forevermore. And the evil seed which must be purged out and destroyed are pictured as Gentile "beasts" and or their "horns"...

Daniel 7:1-2 (Aramaic or "Gentile")
1. In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
2. Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.


And the Four Gospels are the Four Winds of Heaven !!!!
 ::smile::
« Last Edit: Thu May 19, 2011 - 08:50:38 by daq »

daq

  • Guest
The Sand of the Seashore
« Reply #11 on: Thu May 05, 2011 - 21:31:36 »
The Sand of the Seashore

Between Revelation 12 & 13 there is a discrepancy which goes largely unnoticed by modern prophecy shepherds simply because they have divided all Israel from the church-ekklesia through dispensational teachings. However, the discrepancy between the last verse of Revelation 12 and the first verse of Revelation 13 is critical to the understanding of the visions presented because Daniel 8 tells us that the "little horn" will stamp, [trample or tread] upon the stars and the host of heaven after he casts them down to the ground with his false-prophet tail, [Isa.9:15, Rev.12:4]. The most common translations have John standing on the sand of the sea or seashore at the opening of Rev.13 but there are others which translate the Dragon as the one standing upon the sand of the seashore. Since the Greek is inconclusive as to which one is correct, [because of the particular form of gsn#2476 "histemi" - "to stand" which is employed in the passage] the dispensational teachings have essentially made the answer to the very question a moot point because they have a predisposition believing that they will not be here anyways. However, from the alternative viewpoint that the Word is One from Genesis to Revelation and, thus, written to all Israel; the Revised Standard Version appears to have the correct translation because the sand of the seashore are a glaring typology of the children of Israel mixed in with the nations.


Genesis 22:15-18
15. And the Mal'ak of YHWH called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16. And said, By myself have I sworn, saith YHWH, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17. That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


The interpretation of the Daniel 2 dream of Nebuchadnezzar speaks of the same. The Potters clay gives away just who is spoken of and what significance is intended by the Ten Toes of Potters clay and miry clay mixed with iron, [iron is spirit whether for the good or for the bad, as the good is as "the rod of iron in the hand of the Shepherd" and the bad is as the iron of the "evil seed mingled with the clay" of the Ten Toes].

Daniel 2:41-43
41. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Isaiah 64:8-9
8. But now, O YHWH, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
9. Be not wroth very sore, O YHWH, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.


The sand of the seashore is linked to the Revelation 9 Locusts

Revelation 12:17 RSV
17. Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of G-d and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Revelation 13:1-2 RSV
1. AND I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads.
2. And the beast that I saw was like a leopard, its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

Judges 6:2-5
2. And the hand of Midian prevailed over Israel; and because of Midian the people of Israel made for themselves the dens which are in the mountains, and the caves and the strongholds.
3. For whenever the Israelites put in seed the Midianites and the Amalekites and the people of the East would come up and attack them;
4. they would encamp against them and destroy the produce of the land, as far as the neighborhood of Gaza, and leave no sustenance in Israel, and no sheep or ox or ass.
5. For they would come up with their cattle and their tents, coming like locusts for number; both they and their camels could not be counted; so that they wasted the land as they came in.

Judges 7:12
12. And the Midianites and the Amalekites and all the people of the East lay along the valley like locusts for multitude; and their camels were without number, as the sand which is upon the seashore for multitude.

1 Samuel 13:5
5. And the Philistines mustered to fight with Israel, thirty thousand chariots, and six thousand horsemen, and troops like the sand on the seashore in multitude; they came up and encamped in Michmash, to the east of Beth-aven.


The children of Israel mixed in with the nations are as the sand of the seashore. The typology-shadow of Rev.12:17 is of Satan standing against Israel, [1Chr.21:1] and stamping upon the stars and the host or army of heaven, [Dan.8:10, Rev.12:4] which represent all Israel, the sand of the seashore, and the stars of heaven; which fight in their courses and do jeopard their lives unto the death in the high places of the field, [Judges 5]. However, the seven times sprinkling of the blood of the Atonement, [Lev.16, Dan.4:16] are "cut short" to a Time, Times, and a Half, or else there should no flesh be saved, yet each in his appointed time, and none shall be alone in his appointed times, but no man knows the day nor the hour: When the thrones are set, and the Ancient of Days is seated, and the books are opened, Which is always Yom Kippur ~ Atonement Day.

Hosea 1:10-11
10. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living 'EL.
11. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, (Yeshua) and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.


Multitudes! Multitudes! in the valley of decision! And the heathen shall be cut off from the Beautiful Tsebiy Land; And there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of YHWH of warriors in that day!
« Last Edit: Thu May 19, 2011 - 09:09:48 by daq »

Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14971
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: Christians living Torah
« Reply #12 on: Mon May 16, 2011 - 18:58:25 »
Hey Daq,

This topic keeps scraping across the top of my grey matter for some reason - well, at least the part about seeds and unending fire and the worms that just won't quit. 

The relationship between Isaiah 66, it's quotations in Mark 9, and all the proverbs about seeds dying in order to live, such as this one...

Jhn 12:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

It's got me thinking that, perhaps, those 'carcases' of  Isaiah 66 are not eternally preserved corpses strewn about (now there's a disturbing thought), nor even the eternally tortured living dead of a classical hell.  Perhaps they simply represent that portion of the 'seeds' which refuse to die, in order to live.  They are, more of less, fossilized seeds, having never sprouted.

I did some searches cross-referencing seeds with worms and fire and found a correlation that I do not think is coincidental.  I wasn't actually looking for something so common-sensical, but...

Did you know that the use of earthworms in a closed pot will cause a huge number of seeds to sprout?  The practice of doing this is so common that there's a word for it - vermicomposting.  Apparently, worms create beneficial bacteria that stimulate the sprouting of seeds.

Likewise, there are a huge number of species of seeds that will ONLY sprout if they are exposed to flames.  These species are especially prevalent around the Mediterranean.  The Acacia tree is one such species, and is also the most prevalent tree in the southern Jordan (river) area.

I have to believe that the Biblical authors would have been aware that worms and exposure to fire are the two most ancient and common ways to cause seeds to sprout.

Anyway, all this paint a different sort of picture.  I've never been a believer in Purgatory, but the idea of God throwing some wayward 'seeds' into the worm-bucket, or running them through the fire to try to get them to sprout makes some sense to me.

I thought I'd share, seeing as how it was your interesting thoughts that provoked me to investigate in the first place.

Jarrod

daq

  • Guest
Re: Christians living Torah
« Reply #13 on: Tue May 17, 2011 - 06:49:13 »
Hi Jarrod
Perhaps the worm concerns the dormant spiritual seed of Jacob?
All Israel ~ called forth out from the nations by a purging fire.

Isaiah 41:13-14
13.  For I YHWH, thy 'Elohey, will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.
14.  Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith YHWH, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Regarding the Acacia it is of the legume family of trees, [beans and pea-pods]. The fruit of some varieties are sometimes called "locust" and others also produce "wild honey" [both produced from Acacia and the so-called "False Acacia" Black Locust trees]. These "locust" or those of the similar Carob are probably more likely what John the Baptist ate in the wilderness, [Mat.3:4, Mrk.1:6]. Here are a few reference links:


http://antipas.net/14faq.htm
http://www.sierrapotomac.org/W_Needham/BlackLocust_060515.htm

FOLLOWING LINK INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY
[I AM NOT CONDONING PSYCHOTROPICS OR FREEMASONRY]

""The Acacia is [also] used as a symbol in Freemasonry, to represent purity and endurance of the soul, and as funerary symbolism signifying resurrection and immortality. The tree gains its importance from the description of the burial of Hiram Abiff, the builder of King Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem. Several parts (mainly bark, root and resin) of Acacia are used to make incense for rituals. Acacia is used in incense mainly in India, Nepal, Tibet and China. Smoke from Acacia bark is thought to keep demons and ghosts away and to put the gods in a good mood. Roots and resin from Acacia are combined with rhododendron, acorus, cytisus, salvia and some other components of incense. Both people and elephants like an alcoholic beverage made from acacia fruit.[12] According to Easton's Bible Dictionary, the Acacia tree may be the “burning bush
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 08, 2011 - 22:42:56 by daq »