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Offline robycop3

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The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 17:12:47 »
The Origin of the Current KJVO myth
By robycop3

Ever wonder where KJVO-the false doctrine that the KJV is the only valid English Bible translation out there came from? Here's the skinny:

In 1930, a 7th Day Adventist official, Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson(1872-1968), published a book he named "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated" in response to a squabble within the SDA cult. This book is a collection of snippets in favor of the KJV of God's holy word, and is full of goofs, such as the "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie". Apparently, Wilkinson didn't bother to check 0ut the VERACITY of any of the info he gathered. And he copied PARTS of Dean John Burgon's writings, omitting anything that was critical of the Textus Receptus.

He obtained a Scottish copyright for this book, which he apparently allowed to lapse many years ago, as interest in his book was mostly limited to the SDA cult, and for only a short time.

There's no doubt that SDA is a pseudo/quasi-Christian cult, and that Dr. W was a full-fledged SDA official, teacher, and preacher, who often argued for the inerrancy of Ellen Gould White's writings, placing them on a par with Scripture. Several SDA buildings and libraries are named after him.

In 1955, someone called J. J. Ray of Eugene, OR discovered that book, and wrote his/her own book, "God Wrote Only One Bible". Ray copied much of Dr. W's book verbatim in GWOOB without acknowledging him whatsoever, copying many of the goofs in Dr. W's book. Whether Ray obtained Dr. W's permission to use his book, or simply plagiarized it is unknown, but at any rate, Ray used the power of modern media to publicize his/her book, thus starting the idea of KJVO among some of the general public.

Now, try Googling "J. J. Ray" in the Eugene, OR. area. The only one I've found whose lifetime fit the 1955 timeline was a used-car salesman, now deceased, who apparently never published any book. Ray's company, Eye-Opener Publishers, only published that one book. Apparently, "J. J. Ray" is a pseudonym. Now, why would any REAL MAN(or woman) OF GOD use a pseudonym? Apparently, "Ray" was concerned that Dr. W might speak out about his plagiarism.

Then, in 1970, Dr. D. O. Fuller, a Baptist pastor, published "Which Bible?"(3rd revision, 1972), a book which copied much from both Ray and Wilkinson, including many of the original goofs. Like W and Ray before him, he didn't bother to check out the VERACITY of the material he published. And, while he at least acknowledged W, he made absolutely NO mention of W's CULT AFFILIATION. It was this book which brought the public's attention, especially in Baptist circles, to the other two boox, and to KJVO in general. Soon, a whole genre was developed of KJVO boox, all of which drew a large portion of their material from those first three boox.

Now, while Ray's plagiarism and Fuller's deliberate omission of W's CULT AFFILIATION might've been legal, it was certainly DISHONEST, not something any devout Christian would do!

Now, I have not forgotten Dr. Peter S. Ruckman's 1964 works, "Manuscript Evidence" and "Bible Babel". These goof-filled worx was derived largely from Wilkinson's and Ray's books, repeating many of their booboos, such as the "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie". and copying an erroneous chart from Ray's book. Ruckman referred to the title of Ray's book as "God Only Wrote One Book", which hints at the inaccuracy of Ruckman's work. However, Ruckman's works was not among the "foundation stones" of the KJVO myth, as were Ray's and Fuller's boox, both derived from Wilkinson's book.

Virtually every current KJVO author, from Riplinger to Bynum to Melton to Grady to whomever, uses material from those first three boox in their own work, often re-worded, but still the same garbage in a different dumpster. About the only newer material in any of these boox is their criticism of newer Bible versions as they came out. We see a pattern of DISHONESTY in KJVO authorship, as many of its authors copy from each other without any acknowledgement, all of them drawing from a KNOWN CULT OFFICIAL'S book! HOW CAN ANY CHRISTIAN, SEEING ALL THIS DISHONESTY AND ATTEMPTS TO CONCEAL OR JUSTIFY IT, BELIEVE KJVO IS FROM GOD?

These facts are easily verified, either on the Internet or in most public libraries. Unlike KJVOs, we Freedom Readers deal in VERIFIABLE FACT, not fishing stories, opinion, and guesswork. All the boox I mentioned are available online legally, in public libraries, many religious bookstores, or are for sale at various web sites of many religious book stores.

Thus, you see why I, and many other Christians who try to serve God in all aspects of life, are so vehemently against the KJVO myth! It's Satanic in origin, definitely NOT FROM GOD!

I challenge any KJVO to show us any book written before 1930 that is largely about KJVO, and which can be traced to having started the current KJVO doctrine.

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The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 17:12:47 »

Offline robycop3

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #1 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 17:14:42 »
The KJVO has the burden of proof for his doctrine, as he makes a positive assertions that the KJV is the only valid English Bible translation, and that it's perfect. The Freedom Reader denies the veracity of the KJVO claims, so the KJVO must prove his assertions correct to shift the burden of proof to the Freedom Reader.
   
     The Freedom Reader's first defense is actually the ace of trumps - that the KJVO myth doesn't have one word of Scriptural support. We Christians don't believe any doctrine of faith/worship that doesn't come from Scripture, and KJVO certainly doesn't! Its MAN-MADE origin is well-known, & has been published on many sites. That fact alone effectively kills the KJVO myth's veracity.

     
The KJVO myth asserts that the KJV is the ONLY valid English Bible translation out there, and that it is perfect. We shall first prove the KJV is NOT perfect.
A glaring error in the KJV is "Easter" in Acts 12:4. First, EASTER DIDN'T EXIST when Luke wrote "Acts". Second, if it HAD then existed, neither Herod nor the Jews he was trying to please would've observed it, as they didn't believe Jesus had been resurrected. The TRUTH is, Herod was waiting for PASSOVER, then ongoing, to be finished. And passover, ACCORDING TO GOD HIMSELF, is seven days long. That's proven in Ezekiel 45:21, a direct quote of GOD HIMSELF: “In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall observe the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten."

  Furthermore, John 18:28 supports this fact: "Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium, and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the [a]Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might EAT THE PASSOVER." Now, the paschal lambs had already been eaten the previous evening, so the 'passover' cited here could only be the special unleavened meals to be eaten all week. So, there's no question that passover was ongoing when Peter was busted.

 
 Then, there's the KJV's 1 Tim. 6:10, "the love of money is THE root of ALL evil". While Koine Greek has an equivalent for the English "the", it does not have one for the English "a", so English must supply it for the sentence to make sense in English. But the Greek does NOT have that connecting word between "est(as) & "rhizo" (root).Therefore, "THE root" is incorrect. Also, the Greek "pas", rendered 'all' in this verse in the KJV generally means 'some of all kinds or sorts', so MODERN English Bibles render the passage as "the love of money is A root of ALL SORTS of evil", which reality fits perfectly.

  Then, there's Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not KILL." The Hebrew 'ratsach', here rendered 'kill', generally refers to murder or wrongful killing. This KJV mistake has caused controversy & protests for many years, including "conscientious objectors" to military service, & protests at execution sites. Again, modern versions correctly render this verse as "You shall not MURDER."
 
  And this is but a short list of the KJV's goofs & booboos.While it's an excellent translation, it's far-from-perfect!




   





Offline TimothyJ

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Phony as a Ford Corvette or as real as the Ark of the Covenant
« Reply #2 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 17:43:10 »
OK, so I'm a Christian who will not use any other than the King James. Does that make me a cultist? And I do have my reasons should you ask. So ask? I do ask you to hit me with only one or two questions at a time. It may be that I'm not as bright as a burnt out Christmas tree bulb. Maybe not... It's my contention however that because posters want so bad to prove their points, they flood the threads with super long paragraphs taking any semblance of a conversation to the reading of a thesis.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 18:10:01 by TimothyJ »

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Phony as a Ford Corvette or as real as the Ark of the Covenant
« Reply #2 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 17:43:10 »

Offline robycop3

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 04:55:25 »
  I am not against the KJV despite its goofs & booboos; I am against the false KJVO MYTH that says the KJV is the ONLY valid English Bible translation out there.

  This is a man-made myth whose origins are easily seen. NO KJVO can provide one quark of SCRIPTURAL SUP[PORT for this myth, which automatically makes it false.

  I have no prob with anyone wanting to use only the KJV (or any other one version) except for the above reasons.

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #3 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 04:55:25 »

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Re: Phony as a Ford Corvette or as real as the Ark of the Covenant
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 06:48:30 »
OK, so I'm a Christian who will not use any other than the King James. Does that make me a cultist? And I do have my reasons should you ask. So ask? I do ask you to hit me with only one or two questions at a time. It may be that I'm not as bright as a burnt out Christmas tree bulb. Maybe not... It's my contention however that because posters want so bad to prove their points, they flood the threads with super long paragraphs taking any semblance of a conversation to the reading of a thesis.

OK Timothy,  Why?

This might be a little wordy for you but I tried to make it clear.

You should always compare what is written in the KJV to all other translations. Primarily those that are earlier then KJV.

The original New Testament ws written in Koine Greek.

Koine Greek was the common language of the time Jesus walked the earth and when the books of the new testament were written.

I DO NOT expect you to understand the Greek following, but am using it as an example only of how verious translators
change things.

Let us look at a passage from KJ]]

REV 6:8
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth

Now let us look at how it was written in Koine Greek with English Translation and foot notes.



6:8 καὶ εἶδον, καὶ ἰδοὺ ἵππος χλωρός, καὶ ὁ καθήμενος ἐπάνω αὐτοῦ ὄνομα αὐτῷ ὁ Θάνατος,126 καὶ ὁ ᾅδης ἀκολουθεῖ μετ’ αὐτοῦ· καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς ἐξουσία ἐπὶ τὸ τέταρτον τῆς γῆς, ἀποκτεῖναι ἐν ῥομφαίᾳ καὶ ἐν λιμῷ καὶ ἐν θανάτῳ καὶ
ὑπὸ τῶν θηρίων τῆς γῆς.

⁸And I looked, and behold, a pale green horse, and the one who is sitting on127 it, his name is Death, and Hades is trailing after him;128 and authority is given them129 over one fourth of the earth, to kill them with war, and famine, and death, and by the wild animals of the earth

footnote:

126 6:8a txt ὁ θάνατος P 46 ƒ 2 922 1828 2329 TR RP [NA27] {\} ‖ θάνατος ℵ C 61* 1006 1611
1841 2040 2053 2073 ‖ ὁ ἀθάνατος A ‖ lac 051 2050 2062

127 6:8b The preposition "on" is different with this rider than the first three. When you read
this version of the prepositional phrase out loud, this one has a more grave sound to it. It is
longer and more spelled out.

128 6:8c txt ακολουθει μετ’ αυτου 2053com copsa,bo Vic TR ‖ ακολουθει οπισω αυτου syrh ‖
ηκολουθει μετ’ αυτου A C P 922 1611 SBL NA28 {/} ‖ ηκολουθει οπισω αυτου ƒ 2 2329 ‖
ακολουθησειμετ αυτου 2053txt ‖ ηκολουθει αυτω ℵ 046 1006 1828 1841 2040 lat RP ‖
ακολουθει αυτω syrph ‖ lac ²⁴ 051 2050 2062

129 6:8d txt αὐτοῖς ℵ A C P ƒ 2 1006 1611* 1841 2053 TR NA28 {\} ‖ αὐτ 046 922 1611c 1828
2040 2329 K
lat syr copsa,bo eth RP ‖ lac ²⁴ 051 2050 2062.

So while these are very minor differences my main question is

WHY would the King's men change any wording here? To me the original is very understandable.....

Don't get me wrong. I am happy you read the bible. ANY translation. Most people dont.



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Re: Phony as a Ford Corvette or as real as the Ark of the Covenant
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 06:48:30 »



Offline TimothyJ

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #5 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 09:19:56 »
Well before I answer your question/questions, why would I not understand the difference between the common and the classic Greek? Tell me the importance please. Just indulge me here if you would.
And which Greek again were the 1st century letters at Antioch written in, and who wrote them? And then what particular Greek were the 3rd century translations written in, and by whom?

I do see you got a little carried away there, even though your contention you dumb-ed it down a bit for me.

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #5 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 09:19:56 »

Offline winsome

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #6 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 12:02:07 »
There is what appears to be a very scholarly article on the KJV and the Textus Receptus here: http://www.bibletexts.com/kjv-tr.htm

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #7 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 19:08:56 »
The Origin of the Current KJVO myth
By robycop3

Ever wonder where KJVO-the false doctrine that the KJV is the only valid English Bible translation out there came from? Here's the skinny:

In 1930, a 7th Day Adventist official, Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson(1872-1968), published a book he named "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated" in response to a squabble within the SDA cult. This book is a collection of snippets in favor of the KJV of God's holy word, and is full of goofs, such as the "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie". Apparently, Wilkinson didn't bother to check 0ut the VERACITY of any of the info he gathered. And he copied PARTS of Dean John Burgon's writings, omitting anything that was critical of the Textus Receptus.

He obtained a Scottish copyright for this book, which he apparently allowed to lapse many years ago, as interest in his book was mostly limited to the SDA cult, and for only a short time.

There's no doubt that SDA is a pseudo/quasi-Christian cult, and that Dr. W was a full-fledged SDA official, teacher, and preacher, who often argued for the inerrancy of Ellen Gould White's writings, placing them on a par with Scripture. Several SDA buildings and libraries are named after him.

In 1955, someone called J. J. Ray of Eugene, OR discovered that book, and wrote his/her own book, "God Wrote Only One Bible". Ray copied much of Dr. W's book verbatim in GWOOB without acknowledging him whatsoever, copying many of the goofs in Dr. W's book. Whether Ray obtained Dr. W's permission to use his book, or simply plagiarized it is unknown, but at any rate, Ray used the power of modern media to publicize his/her book, thus starting the idea of KJVO among some of the general public.

Now, try Googling "J. J. Ray" in the Eugene, OR. area. The only one I've found whose lifetime fit the 1955 timeline was a used-car salesman, now deceased, who apparently never published any book. Ray's company, Eye-Opener Publishers, only published that one book. Apparently, "J. J. Ray" is a pseudonym. Now, why would any REAL MAN(or woman) OF GOD use a pseudonym? Apparently, "Ray" was concerned that Dr. W might speak out about his plagiarism.

Then, in 1970, Dr. D. O. Fuller, a Baptist pastor, published "Which Bible?"(3rd revision, 1972), a book which copied much from both Ray and Wilkinson, including many of the original goofs. Like W and Ray before him, he didn't bother to check out the VERACITY of the material he published. And, while he at least acknowledged W, he made absolutely NO mention of W's CULT AFFILIATION. It was this book which brought the public's attention, especially in Baptist circles, to the other two boox, and to KJVO in general. Soon, a whole genre was developed of KJVO boox, all of which drew a large portion of their material from those first three boox.

Now, while Ray's plagiarism and Fuller's deliberate omission of W's CULT AFFILIATION might've been legal, it was certainly DISHONEST, not something any devout Christian would do!

Now, I have not forgotten Dr. Peter S. Ruckman's 1964 works, "Manuscript Evidence" and "Bible Babel". These goof-filled worx was derived largely from Wilkinson's and Ray's books, repeating many of their booboos, such as the "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie". and copying an erroneous chart from Ray's book. Ruckman referred to the title of Ray's book as "God Only Wrote One Book", which hints at the inaccuracy of Ruckman's work. However, Ruckman's works was not among the "foundation stones" of the KJVO myth, as were Ray's and Fuller's boox, both derived from Wilkinson's book.

Virtually every current KJVO author, from Riplinger to Bynum to Melton to Grady to whomever, uses material from those first three boox in their own work, often re-worded, but still the same garbage in a different dumpster. About the only newer material in any of these boox is their criticism of newer Bible versions as they came out. We see a pattern of DISHONESTY in KJVO authorship, as many of its authors copy from each other without any acknowledgement, all of them drawing from a KNOWN CULT OFFICIAL'S book! HOW CAN ANY CHRISTIAN, SEEING ALL THIS DISHONESTY AND ATTEMPTS TO CONCEAL OR JUSTIFY IT, BELIEVE KJVO IS FROM GOD?

These facts are easily verified, either on the Internet or in most public libraries. Unlike KJVOs, we Freedom Readers deal in VERIFIABLE FACT, not fishing stories, opinion, and guesswork. All the boox I mentioned are available online legally, in public libraries, many religious bookstores, or are for sale at various web sites of many religious book stores.

Thus, you see why I, and many other Christians who try to serve God in all aspects of life, are so vehemently against the KJVO myth! It's Satanic in origin, definitely NOT FROM GOD!

I challenge any KJVO to show us any book written before 1930 that is largely about KJVO, and which can be traced to having started the current KJVO doctrine.
who made it a doctrine?  who made it a myth?

why should anyone believe you or your sources?


Offline robycop3

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #8 on: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 04:49:29 »
who made it a doctrine?  who made it a myth?

  Hard to find out exactly who made it a doctrine, but some of the blame should go to Dr. D. O. Fuller & his 1970 book, Which Bible? Several other preachers started believing the hooey, and it wasn't forever that "King James Bible Only" and similar began appearing on some church shingles.

Quote
why should anyone believe you or your sources?

  Anyone is free to check them out for themselves, by Google, or in most public libraries. Dr. Wilkinson's book is available from Amazon, and, possibly, Ebay. And everyone has freedom to believe them or not.

  However, TOTAL LACK OF SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT automatically makes the KJVO myth false.

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #8 on: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 04:49:29 »

Offline Johnb

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #9 on: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 07:29:09 »
KJV better than some worse than others.  None have been written by the finger of God like the Ten Commandments.

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #10 on: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 08:50:27 »
Well before I answer your question/questions, why would I not understand the difference between the common and the classic Greek? Tell me the importance please. Just indulge me here if you would.

Koine... or common Greek came into being to replace the various,dialects of Greek with a single common one.

Not being a true Greek scholar I understand Koine to be  really close to modern Greek. And it is an easier version of Greek to learn than classical while  still a semi living language by use in the Greek Orthodox Church.

Both Classical and Koine were used in the first century.

 Classical Greek was the basic language of literature and formality. Koine, or common as you referred to it was basically everyday street language. Likely the reason God inspired the authors to use Koine in the New Testament as it would be more readily understood.



And which Greek again were the 1st century letters at Antioch written in,


Classical

and who wrote them?

Dang it..... dang it......    ::eek::   Ignatius....?????   That is, if you are one who accepts he actually did write them and that some, if not all are not forgeries as many claim.....

So altering my answer.... it is somewhat unclear.....  Yes, that is my final answer.
[/color]

And then what particular Greek were the 3rd century translations written in, and by whom?


This makes zero sense as you have written it.. What are you asking?

Are you asking which Greek the translators were reading to translate into other languages in the 3rd century?

It looks as if you are asking which Greek was used in translating another language into some Greek?

I have no clue what you are looking for.........


I do see you got a little carried away there, even though your contention you dumb-ed it down a bit for me

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Re: Phony as a Ford Corvette or as real as the Ark of the Covenant
« Reply #11 on: Thu Apr 02, 2020 - 05:28:41 »
OK, so I'm a Christian who will not use any other than the King James. Does that make me a cultist? And I do have my reasons should you ask. So ask? I do ask you to hit me with only one or two questions at a time. It may be that I'm not as bright as a burnt out Christmas tree bulb. Maybe not... It's my contention however that because posters want so bad to prove their points, they flood the threads with super long paragraphs taking any semblance of a conversation to the reading of a thesis.

  OK< Sir, one question at a time - Can you provide any SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for the KJVO myth ?

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #12 on: Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 12:59:40 »
The Model T was produced from 1909 through 1927. Henry Ford had it made from the best materials available, with the latest engineering designs. His assembly lines became so efficiant that a car could be made from parts every 93 minutes.

During its production run, the Model T was made into dozens of variations. American LaFrance Co. modified some 900 of them into firetrucks. Some of the other variants made were touring cars, racing cars, various kinds of trucks, "sportabouts", & luxury cars. Over time, innovations such as electric starters, electric windshield wipers, better headlights & brake lights, etc. were added.

The Model T was the original SUV, being able to negotiate many wagon paths & rough, unpaved roads, & to cross many creek beds. However, this car still rode roughly over smooth surfaces. But this car remained easy for most owners to keep in repair.

However, tech for cars was increasing, & other cars were offering more features than the Model T, & also, modern paved roads were being laid, enabling cars to go faster more-smoothly. So, Ford replaqced the Model T with the Model A, suited for modern roads. But to this day, the Model T remains the 8th best-selling car model of all time, with over 16 million units made.

The KJV is a "Model T" Bible version. It was the best English version of its day, offering such features as easily-read marginal notes, the Apocrypha, an "Easter-Finder", & an outstanding preface. In time, it replaces virtually every other English version in common use. And the British govt. which held sway over most of the English-using world, outlawed the printing or sale of any other English version.

But the English language changed over time, especially in countries outside of Britain, & the language style of the KJV fell increasingly out of use. Also, many more Scriptural mss.had been discovered, bringing the wording of some verses into question, as well as better translation tools being used, which showed some goofs & booboos in the KJV. Thus, modern English Bible versions began to be made, which are in modern language, & correct many of the KJV's errors.

Now, the KJV remains a viable Bible version, same as the Model T remains a car. However, same as the Model T, the KJV is behind times when compared to modern versions.

God has caused His word to be translated into OUR language, & there's no valid reason not to read it & preach it in our own language. We don't drive Model Ts every day, so there's no reason to use only a "Model T" Bible version!

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #13 on: Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 13:00:44 »
I carefully re-read Will Kinney's article, "Is King James Onlyism Scriptural?", and, while he SAYS it is, he FAILS TO PROVIDE ONE QUARK OF SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS IT IS ! ! !

    Instead, he posts several verses that are found in every other valid English Bible translation, & includes the disproven "Psalm 12:6-7 thingie" as well. (The AV 1611 itself proves that "thingie" wrong with its footnote for the 2nd "them" in V7 - "Heb. him, I. Euery one of them.")

  He refuses to acknowledge any of the KJV's goofs & booboos, such as "Easter" in Acts 12:4, "Thou shalt not KILL" in Ex. 20:13, the ADDITION of "and shalt be" in Rev. 16:5, or the OMISSION of "through our Lord Jesus Christ" in Jude 25.(Remember, both addition and omission of any of God's word is as sin !)

  Mr. Kinney cannot answer the "no Scriptural support" fact, so he tries to reverse the fact by saying that no other version is mentioned either. However, he ignores the FACT that, by not limiting Himself to any one translation in any language, God allows men to make new Bible translations as He wills. As Master of all language, God knows languages change over time, by His will, and thus, new translations of His word are needed. He originally caused His word to be written in ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, & Koine Greek because those were the languages used by His chosen penmen, and by His intended readership at that time. When God's time came to spread Christianity beyond the Jews & those peoples whom they lived among, God caused His word to be translated into other languages. Now, it's translated into some 2500 languages & dialects, even into some which have no written forms.

  The TRUTH is, GOD IS NOT LIMITED in English, or any other language, to just one translation ! While some languages have only one translation, that's because they're recent ones, & that particular language isn't changing much. Mr. Kinney is simply COMPLETELY WRONG! But his obsession with the KJV & the KJVO myth won't let him see the truth.

 The answer to the article's title question is a resounding "NO !"

Offline BlessedCreator

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #14 on: Sun Apr 26, 2020 - 16:03:22 »
The KJB is the only English Bible I would ever reccomend others to read from. Modern Bibles are satanic, they butcher and pervert the word of God. There are evil agendas in modern Bibles. I made another thread why I believe what I have said here:  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/bible-corruptions/?topicseen

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #15 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 08:48:49 »
I am posting a link for all to look at , read, and then bookmark for themselves.

This is an English lnterlinear study of the bible. They are the earliest New Testament Translations.

Found on this link:

http://www.genevabible.org/Geneva.html

An interlinear comparison in Modern English.

John Wycliffe  1382

John Purvey  1395

William Tyndale  1525 and 1534

Geneva  1599

King James  1611 - 1881

* start reading at page 10 and on.......

http://www.genevabible.org/files/Geneva_Bible/6_Version_Comparison.pdf

Offline robycop3

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #16 on: Sun May 03, 2020 - 09:42:03 »
The KJB is the only English Bible I would ever reccomend others to read from. Modern Bibles are satanic, they butcher and pervert the word of God. There are evil agendas in modern Bibles. I made another thread why I believe what I have said here:  http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/bible-corruptions/?topicseen


  What's a "KJB" ? The Russian replacement for the KGB ?

  You're simply WRONG about the modern English BVs, which are in OUR language.

  Now, please show us any corruption in the NKJV.

  And, please show us some SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for the KJVO myth, or admit it's false !

Offline BlessedCreator

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #17 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 13:34:03 »
I did, in the link I posted in my previous post.

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #18 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 17:02:50 »
I did, in the link I posted in my previous post.

  Not a bit of Scriptural support for the KJVO myth. That automatically makes that myth false.

  And you haven't proven one corruption. You're just guessing. I suggest you check out the Greek, Hebrew, & Aramaic for passages you question in MVs.

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #19 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 05:54:23 »
About 15 years ago I came across a post by a professor of theology at some bible school i had not heard of before supporting the KJVO position.

His argument was based on the idea of the competing manuscripts in both NT (TR vs the others) and OT (Masoretic vs LXX) and he posited that God was so upset with the mess that HE RE-INSPIRED His Word in 1611.  That means that anything that went before, including the original manuscripts, (if they are ever found ) are null and void.

I asked for scriptural evidence for "re-inspiration" which never came.  BTW I tried to find that post a few months later and apparently it had been taken down.
« Last Edit: Thu May 07, 2020 - 05:58:13 by DaveW »

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #20 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 06:13:28 »
I have already given the problem with the name "James" in the KJV (which seems to be nothing more than the King trying to get his own name in the book).

There are a couple of other issues where the KJV translators invented their way out of a problem.

Take the word "Baptize."  It was introduced into English by the KJV translators who were afraid of the Church of England bishops who were sprinkling.  the words bapto and baptizo were verbs meaning to dip, plunge, soak, immerse. So they invented a new word that no one knew exactly what it was supposed to mean so as to not challenge the extant practice.

Another one is the invention of the Name "Jehovah."  In using the Masoretic text of the OT, they came across God's Holy Name, the unpronounced  four letter Tetragramaton of Yud Hay Vav Hay.  Going back millennia, Jews had substituted the word "Adonai" (my Lord) for the Tetragramaton when reading biblical texts.  To remind the reader to do that, the Masorites (who invented a system of vowel points) used the vowel points from Adonai when the biblical text had the Tetragramaton. Trying to pronounce Yud Hay Vav Hay with the vowel points of Adonai gave Iehovah.  Later the initial I was replaced with J.  Hence "Jehovah."

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #21 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 07:43:30 »
I have already given the problem with the name "James" in the KJV (which seems to be nothing more than the King trying to get his own name in the book).

There are a couple of other issues where the KJV translators invented their way out of a problem.

Take the word "Baptize."  It was introduced into English by the KJV translators who were afraid of the Church of England bishops who were sprinkling.  the words bapto and baptizo were verbs meaning to dip, plunge, soak, immerse. So they invented a new word that no one knew exactly what it was supposed to mean so as to not challenge the extant practice.

Another one is the invention of the Name "Jehovah."  In using the Masoretic text of the OT, they came across God's Holy Name, the unpronounced  four letter Tetragramaton of Yud Hay Vav Hay.  Going back millennia, Jews had substituted the word "Adonai" (my Lord) for the Tetragramaton when reading biblical texts.  To remind the reader to do that, the Masorites (who invented a system of vowel points) used the vowel points from Adonai when the biblical text had the Tetragramaton. Trying to pronounce Yud Hay Vav Hay with the vowel points of Adonai gave Iehovah.  Later the initial I was replaced with J.  Hence "Jehovah."


Thank you DAve,

I appreciate learning of the name Jehovah, as you have explained. I did not know .

As to... " Take the word "Baptize."  It was introduced into English by the KJV translators who were afraid of the Church of England bishops who were sprinkling. "

Ummm, not exactly. At least not as I have been able to find.

In the Geneva bible of 1560... the one King James wanted to replace with his own we read....

16:16   He that shall beleeue and be baptized, shalbe saued: but he that will not beleeue, shalbe damned.
http://www.textusreceptusbibles.com/Geneva/41/16

And truth be told.... so much of KJV is nearly carbon copied with the Geneva of 1530 that it makes one wonder if the King's men actually did their own translations , OR were using another's work and just changing a word here and there?

My online copy of The Aramaic Scriptures says it originally said immersed... and someone, in translation noted baptized.

ܐܝܢܐ ܕܡܗܝܡܢ ܘܥܡܕ ܚܝܐ ܘܐܝܢܐ ܕܠܐ ܡܗܝܡܢ ܡܬܚܝܒ
16 Whoever mahaymen {believes}, and is Immersed {Baptized}, Khaye {Lives}, and whoever that does not believe, is methhayab {condemned}.

(​​Copyright © 2010-2019 TheHolyAramaicScriptures.com
​~ The Holy Aramaic Scriptures: English Translation/Transliteration ~ ​
Warning! The Aramaic and English Texts Shown In This Online Edition ​Are Copyright Protected: All rights reserved)

The English translation portions found herein are under copyright law to protect the integrity of the translation. If these translations are used in quotations, either online, or in some printed form, you are asked to provide the copyright notice given here at the bottom of each page... at the end of the quoted portion that is used, along with a link, (online) or the address (printed), pointing to this website, namely, www.thearamaicscriptures.com to help others read God's Holy Word from The Holy Aramaic Scriptures in English.

From this we read...


​​This Website features The Holy Aramaic Scriptures, as preserved in the ancient Eastern Aramaic Text of The New Testament, in such manuscripts as The Yonan Codex, The Khabouris Codex, The 1199 Houghton Codex, and The Mingana 148 Codex, among others for you to read and study; giving as literal as possible a rendering of this Holy Biblical Text, in a fresh, accurate, literal,  English Translation/Transliteration.

So it would seem that in 1199 IMMERSED would have been the word of the day.

Of course, Mark stops at Chapter 8 in the Codex Sinaticus.

And I am out of time at the moment. So I will see who said what later, as time allows....

But just know it was not the king's men who first put baptized into Mark 16:16... that came before.

Later... now you have my curiosity really stirred up.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #22 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 13:30:57 »
Take the word "Baptize."  It was introduced into English by the KJV translators who were afraid of the Church of England bishops who were sprinkling.  the words bapto and baptizo were verbs meaning to dip, plunge, soak, immerse. So they invented a new word that no one knew exactly what it was supposed to mean so as to not challenge the extant practice.
They didn't exactly invent a new word.  The Greek word is baptizo.  They simply transliterated rather than translating in this instance.  If you're saying their reasons for doing so were bad, I think I agree.

Also, baptizo does not mean dip.  Plunge or immerse are valid translations, but the gist of the meaning is that something has been sunk.  The word is used in other documents of the same era for pickles and scuttled ships.  They are not merely dipped, but sunken... to the point that they are changed to be something else.

Jarrod


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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #23 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 13:38:19 »
They didn't exactly invent a new word.  The Greek word is baptizo.  They simply transliterated rather than translating in this instance.
invented in the sense that it was new to English. Many words are invented by transliterating from another language.
 
Quote
Also, baptizo does not mean dip. Also, baptizo does not mean dip.
If memory serves dip was what bapto meant, not baptizo.  I lumped them in together.

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #24 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 09:08:42 »
  What's a "KJB" ? The Russian replacement for the KGB ?

  You're simply WRONG about the modern English BVs, which are in OUR language.

  Now, please show us any corruption in the NKJV.

  And, please show us some SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for the KJVO myth, or admit it's false !
The best way to determine if all bibles are equal is to compare them. The NKJV teaches a different "born again" than what is taught in the KJV.

 1 Peter 1:23 New King James Version (NKJV)

23 having been born again, not of [a]corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides [c]forever, ote]


1 Peter 1:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Are we born again THROUGH  the word of God as the NKJV says or are we born again BY the word of God as the KJV says? . The language in one version is inspired by some one to reveal the truth about what the second birth is and the other one isn't.

Through the word of God means the word of God is involved in the second birth in some way. By the word of God means the second birth is created solely by the words of God. It's up to the reader to determine which is right.

A person who reads the KJV and believes exactly what the words say will have a completely different understanding of the second birth than some one who reads another version.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #25 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 14:45:57 »
The best way to determine if all bibles are equal is to compare them. The NKJV teaches a different "born again" than what is taught in the KJV.

 1 Peter 1:23 New King James Version (NKJV)

23 having been born again, not of [a]corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides [c]forever, ote]


1 Peter 1:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Are we born again THROUGH  the word of God as the NKJV says or are we born again BY the word of God as the KJV says? . The language in one version is inspired by some one to reveal the truth about what the second birth is and the other one isn't.

Through the word of God means the word of God is involved in the second birth in some way. By the word of God means the second birth is created solely by the words of God. It's up to the reader to determine which is right.

A person who reads the KJV and believes exactly what the words say will have a completely different understanding of the second birth than some one who reads another version.
A person who understands the KJV in the way you have... has mis-understood it.

The NKJV carries the correct meaning of the verse in modern vernacular.  The KJV carries the exact same meaning... but uses the word "by" in a sense that has fallen out of use and become archaic.

Jarrod

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #26 on: Fri May 08, 2020 - 15:19:01 »
A person who understands the KJV in the way you have... has mis-understood it.

The NKJV carries the correct meaning of the verse in modern vernacular.  The KJV carries the exact same meaning... but uses the word "by" in a sense that has fallen out of use and become archaic.

Jarrod
I sense that you don't agree BY the comments you made.
I sense that you don't agree THROUGH the comments you made.
Do you see the difference in the two examples I just gave?

If anything, "by way of" would convey the message much better than through. But even that doesn't convey the idea that we are born again BY the word of God.
The word of God creates the new man in us.

Offline robycop3

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #27 on: Sat May 09, 2020 - 09:24:25 »
The best way to determine if all bibles are equal is to compare them. The NKJV teaches a different "born again" than what is taught in the KJV.

 1 Peter 1:23 New King James Version (NKJV)

23 having been born again, not of [a]corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides [c]forever, ote]


1 Peter 1:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Are we born again THROUGH  the word of God as the NKJV says or are we born again BY the word of God as the KJV says? . The language in one version is inspired by some one to reveal the truth about what the second birth is and the other one isn't.

Through the word of God means the word of God is involved in the second birth in some way. By the word of God means the second birth is created solely by the words of God. It's up to the reader to determine which is right.

A person who reads the KJV and believes exactly what the words say will have a completely different understanding of the second birth than some one who reads another version.

  The NKJV's reading is simply more modern & a little better translation, not a "corruption".

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #28 on: Sat May 09, 2020 - 09:56:52 »
  The NKJV's reading is simply more modern & a little better translation, not a "corruption".
Any bible that isn’t inspired by God is a corruption of the word of God. Without inspiration a Bible is just some translators best effort of wading through some other mans opinion of what a word originally meant in a language that’s been dead for 2000 years. Wouldn’t you agree?

Offline robycop3

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #29 on: Sun May 10, 2020 - 17:17:08 »
Any bible that isn’t inspired by God is a corruption of the word of God. Without inspiration a Bible is just some translators best effort of wading through some other mans opinion of what a word originally meant in a language that’s been dead for 2000 years. Wouldn’t you agree?

 All valid translations, any language, are equally inspired. No one can show otherwise.

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #30 on: Sun May 10, 2020 - 21:36:06 »
All valid translations, any language, are equally inspired. No one can show otherwise.
New International Version
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

The NIV says Jesus has an origin, do you believe that?

Offline DaveW

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #31 on: Mon May 11, 2020 - 05:45:31 »
Are we born again THROUGH  the word of God as the NKJV says or are we born again BY the word of God as the KJV says? . The language in one version is inspired by some one to reveal the truth about what the second birth is and the other one isn't.
And that shows the weakness of ANY translation.

Never NEVER NEVER try parsing words or phrases in a translation, no matter how good you think it is. GO TO THE ORIGINAL (or as close to it as you can get)

Unless someone has a graduate degree in Koine Greek, he/she is unqualified to make that level of decision.

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #32 on: Mon May 11, 2020 - 06:23:39 »
And that shows the weakness of ANY translation.

Never NEVER NEVER try parsing words or phrases in a translation, no matter how good you think it is. GO TO THE ORIGINAL (or as close to it as you can get)

Unless someone has a graduate degree in Koine Greek, he/she is unqualified to make that level of decision.
If I did that I would be as biblically illiterate as you are... I don't think so,. I CAME OUT of your cult years ago.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #33 on: Mon May 11, 2020 - 06:59:04 »
If I did that I would be as biblically illiterate as you are... I don't think so,. I CAME OUT of your cult years ago.
I do not consider myself to be that literate.  I know a little Biblical Hebrew and even less koine Greek.

And what "cult" do you think i am in?

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Re: The KJVO myth - Phony as a Ford Corvette !
« Reply #34 on: Mon May 11, 2020 - 07:38:35 »
I do not consider myself to be that literate.  I know a little Biblical Hebrew and even less koine Greek.

And what "cult" do you think i am in?
DaveW I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm telling you the truth. When you pick and chose words from different bibles, concordances or lexicons you're not gaining more understanding, your mixing truth with fact. Like I said on my original post on this thread, your definition of everything biblical will be completely different than a person who believes every word exactly as written. Common sense says that's true.

The cult I was talking about is that cult that teaches God's innerant word is only found in the originals.

 

     
anything