Author Topic: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?  (Read 293 times)

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Online Rella

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This is a serious study deserving to be debated.

We have those on here who would contend that it is a must for  references, historical as well as general commentaries that are needed to "explain" whatever we feel need to have explained within the four corners of the bible. This allows points to be made
with "backup".

We have those on here who believe that the bible is self explanatory because there can be no debate  among the written words that were inspired writings.

I used to be one of these....

For those who support using outside references, how exactly do you know "they" are correct? Because you can find support on either side of the coin on any subject you want to research and if it hits you as being true you will embrace that?

Many, if not most of you, have quite an education in Koine Greek.

I do not.... I have the interlinear Greek / English that I often post here and as far as I know it is as correct as the translators say it is... but then there are those of you who will jump in with this word or that word is translated wrong. How do you know you are right and others are wrong?

So, without belaboring in this OP .... what say you as to your preferences and why?






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Offline GB

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 10:16:49 »
This is a serious study deserving to be debated.

We have those on here who would contend that it is a must for  references, historical as well as general commentaries that are needed to "explain" whatever we feel need to have explained within the four corners of the bible. This allows points to be made
with "backup".

We have those on here who believe that the bible is self explanatory because there can be no debate  among the written words that were inspired writings.

I used to be one of these....

For those who support using outside references, how exactly do you know "they" are correct? Because you can find support on either side of the coin on any subject you want to research and if it hits you as being true you will embrace that?

Many, if not most of you, have quite an education in Koine Greek.

I do not.... I have the interlinear Greek / English that I often post here and as far as I know it is as correct as the translators say it is... but then there are those of you who will jump in with this word or that word is translated wrong. How do you know you are right and others are wrong?

So, without belaboring in this OP .... what say you as to your preferences and why?

Good topic Rella,

I am always brought back the very first example of deception given us by the God of the Bible. It was  "another" voice, not the Word of God, which deceived Eve. This voice used some of God's Word selectively, but not all. Because, as Jesus said those many years later, we shall "LIVE" by EVERY Word which proceeds from the mouth of God. Had Eve simply returned to God and asked HIM to repeat what His instruction was, she would have not been deceived.


The purpose of the "other religious voice" in the garden was to give Eve a choice. In Duet. 30, the Word of God which became Flesh lays out this "choice".

It seems the "other voice" has one goal. To convince as many as it can, that God's Word can not be trusted as given. That God's Word is, in many cases, a "Burdensome Yoke of Bondage". Or as Eve was convinced, that God's commandment made her blind.

I believe we are all given the same Choice and that is the purpose for all the "other religious voices" out there.

It has been my experience that if a man truly Seeks to know the God of the Bible, enough to "yield our self" to His Word's, and reject all the "other voices" out there, that God will see this "Faith" and HE and HIS Son will reveal themselves to this man. John 14 speaks to this in detail.

But this takes Faith/belief in a God who is Spiritual and silent in these times, except through the Holy scriptures. Therefore, "many" will choose the broad path of the "other voice" as opposed to the perfect path Jesus walked and taught. One can be "seen" the other requires "Hope and Faith".

Great topic Rella :)



Offline 4WD

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 11:06:45 »
So, without belaboring in this OP .... what say you as to your preferences and why?
As I have said before on several occasions the problem is never what God has said in the Bible; rather the problem is what one thinks God meant by what He said in the Bible.  The Bible is extremely internally interrelation.  That is, very little of what God means in what He said in the Bible can be isolated as stand alone.  While one can become very familiar with and knowledgeable in the whole of the Bible, there have been very few who have actually accomplished that.  As a result when we study God's word, we should, when possible, seek out the knowledge of those who might be more familiar than we are with the passage under study.  A case in point might be the verse Mat 16:18  And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The big question is what God meant by the word "rock" in that verse. It is not absolutely necessary to go to outside sources to learn the truth in that verse, but it certainly can help. And typically the more varied the sources the better with the goal not being to simply find one that agrees with your view.

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 11:06:45 »

Online Rella

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 13:56:05 »
As I have said before on several occasions the problem is never what God has said in the Bible; rather the problem is what one thinks God meant by what He said in the Bible.  The Bible is extremely internally interrelation.  That is, very little of what God means in what He said in the Bible can be isolated as stand alone.  While one can become very familiar with and knowledgeable in the whole of the Bible, there have been very few who have actually accomplished that.  As a result when we study God's word, we should, when possible, seek out the knowledge of those who might be more familiar than we are with the passage under study.  A case in point might be the verse Mat 16:18  And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The big question is what God meant by the word "rock" in that verse. It is not absolutely necessary to go to outside sources to learn the truth in that verse, but it certainly can help. And typically the more varied the sources the better with the goal not being to simply find one that agrees with your view.

Agreed. It should not be to find the one that agrees with your view, or should not.

But in a given subject as one seeks more clarity of meaning, one can find multiple
explanations in opposition to each other.

Why would that be? It should not but there is.

Even the biblical scholars will differ on thoughts and ideas.

So, should it be as simple as just trusting one's own reading?

Now you touched on biblical interrelation and I think we can all agree on that.

That is one reason one needs to continually study and read.

Every so often I still get a huge  ::idea:: of clarity that I had not seen before.

Total and perfect sense and check into it and those who agree, and those who disagree.. and  both make sense.......  ::pondering::

Outside help is not always helpful. Not if you can explain your position in scripture with clarity. But then... sometimes it is....












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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 13:56:05 »
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Offline Alan

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 18:13:11 »
Agreed. It should not be to find the one that agrees with your view, or should not.

But in a given subject as one seeks more clarity of meaning, one can find multiple
explanations in opposition to each other.

Why would that be? It should not but there is.

Even the biblical scholars will differ on thoughts and ideas.

So, should it be as simple as just trusting one's own reading?

Now you touched on biblical interrelation and I think we can all agree on that.

That is one reason one needs to continually study and read.

Every so often I still get a huge  ::idea:: of clarity that I had not seen before.

Total and perfect sense and check into it and those who agree, and those who disagree.. and  both make sense.......  ::pondering::

Outside help is not always helpful. Not if you can explain your position in scripture with clarity. But then... sometimes it is....


Perhaps this is the exact reason that outside sources are beneficial to understanding. Some of the ancient text isn't actually translatable to English but we've made many attempts to give our best understanding through multiple versions. Another thing to consider is the culture of the day, many people attempt to understand the Bible via today's culture but that may not lead to a proper understanding of the intent of the verses or chapters. We also need to understand when metaphors were purposely used and when they were used to summarize historical periods.

If a scholarly man that had no knowledge of God or had never read the Bible before sat down and read it cover to cover, that man would definitely have questions that couldn't be answered by continually reading, unless he formulated his own opinions. 13,000 denominations sound familiar?

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 18:13:11 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 19:48:36 »
I'm in favor of using histories, and lexicons.  I find that commentaries do more harm than good, usually.

Why am I in favor of using history?  Because the Bible talks about historical events, but isn't a history book.  It alludes to events that it expects the reader to be familiar with.  If you aren't familiar with those events, then you really don't have any chance of understanding what is written there.

Jarrod

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 19:48:36 »

Online Rella

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #6 on: Fri Jun 12, 2020 - 06:57:04 »

Perhaps this is the exact reason that outside sources are beneficial to understanding. Some of the ancient text isn't actually translatable to English but we've made many attempts to give our best understanding through multiple versions. Another thing to consider is the culture of the day, many people attempt to understand the Bible via today's culture but that may not lead to a proper understanding of the intent of the verses or chapters. We also need to understand when metaphors were purposely used and when they were used to summarize historical periods.

If a scholarly man that had no knowledge of God or had never read the Bible before sat down and read it cover to cover, that man would definitely have questions that couldn't be answered by continually reading, unless he formulated his own opinions. 13,000 denominations sound familiar?

I do agree that outside sources ARE needed in many cases.

The trouble is... WHICH outside sources?

The most recent brouhaha on here between the 70AD die hards and the later 96AD ones both have used outside sources to shore up their opinions.

And still a stalemate.

Reason:  The sources are merely from people , often from long ago, who put their spin on things.

13,000 denominations sounds about right although I would venture to say perhaps more.... simply because there is non stop twisting to any given understanding.

I would be willing to bet that if you asked the next 100 people what the phrase "In the beginning, God".... meant you would get a variety of answers from I dont know cause we dont know what God created.... to Well, that was when God created the heavens and the earth and man.... to It is talking about God creating the universe several eons ago type thing.

Even... that later with the the acknowledgement of Gen 1:1.

So outside sources require much study and then some common sense has to prevail. IMHO

« Last Edit: Fri Jun 12, 2020 - 07:10:30 by Rella »

Online Rella

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #7 on: Fri Jun 12, 2020 - 07:23:04 »
I'm in favor of using histories, and lexicons.  I find that commentaries do more harm than good, usually.

Why am I in favor of using history?  Because the Bible talks about historical events, but isn't a history book.  It alludes to events that it expects the reader to be familiar with.  If you aren't familiar with those events, then you really don't have any chance of understanding what is written there.

Jarrod

Histories I fully agree with. But histories often are the source of arguements also, expecially when the author of some is reported as not necessarily having it all together... for what ever reason, or not understanding.

Take our civil war for example.

Do you think those who wrote of it from the south and also the north are seeing the same sie of the coin.... No they are not.
I own a book written by my great great grandfather who was a prisoner on the train to Andersonville, where he escaped and
was commissioned by congree to write of his escape.... Admittedly Not much about the war but I learned some things about the slaves that never made it to any history book I ever read.... and he did post in the local newspaper what had happened.

I also have a distant relative who was a confederate spy.  A woman of high society who accomplished much in her position
in Washington hobnobbing.... She wrote a diary... I have yet to find a copy but keep searching)

Two sides of the same coin gets us different views, even when they are living them.

As to Lexicons... this is good.... But limiting in my opinion....

Offline EYRose

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 13:55:56 »
On the other hand there are gifts available to all believrs that ensure the Bible is easily and propoerly understood:
1 Corinthians 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.'


It would be interesting to know how many on gracecentred can actually say Jesus is Lord.

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 13:55:56 »

Online Rella

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #9 on: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 14:36:59 »
On the other hand there are gifts available to all believrs that ensure the Bible is easily and propoerly understood:
1 Corinthians 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.'


It would be interesting to know how many on gracecentred can actually say Jesus is Lord.

Another post that is OT.  But at least you are getting your count up.

Would you like to meet me in tongues land? I am certain you have the gift of interpretation n'est-ce pas?

Je! Ungependa kukutana nami katika lugha ya lugha

Kemela ki pua ki Ma ki asu labow ka... seminaka

iyd'yot, tipesh, shoteh





Offline EYRose

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #10 on: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 16:17:34 »
You sure lack wisdom and discernment don't you!  Your biggest need is maturity as your childishiness is tiring and unbecoming. That's why you killed Jesus.

FYI the gift of tongues is given to those who might need use it.

Try read and understand 1 Cor 12.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #11 on: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 23:38:38 »
Histories I fully agree with. But histories often are the source of arguements also, expecially when the author of some is reported as not necessarily having it all together... for what ever reason, or not understanding.

Take our civil war for example.

Do you think those who wrote of it from the south and also the north are seeing the same sie of the coin.... No they are not.
I own a book written by my great great grandfather who was a prisoner on the train to Andersonville, where he escaped and
was commissioned by congree to write of his escape.... Admittedly Not much about the war but I learned some things about the slaves that never made it to any history book I ever read.... and he did post in the local newspaper what had happened.

I also have a distant relative who was a confederate spy.  A woman of high society who accomplished much in her position
in Washington hobnobbing.... She wrote a diary... I have yet to find a copy but keep searching)

Two sides of the same coin gets us different views, even when they are living them.
Histories always contain some political spin.  The victors write the histories, and the triumphs are always magnified, and the mistakes are downplayed, or given apology.

A student doesn't read history as though it is inerrant Scripture.  He reads it with a critical eye.  As a reader, you have to separate things that are facts from that which is opinion, or "spin."

It isn't really that hard to tell fact from opinion, IMO.  You have only to be looking for the difference and it becomes apparent.

Jarrod

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #12 on: Sun Jun 21, 2020 - 08:33:34 »


FYI the gift of tongues is given to those who might need use it.


And I was and I have.... If you had the intelligence of a gnat you would understand.

Online Rella

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #13 on: Sun Jun 21, 2020 - 08:34:41 »
You sure lack wisdom and discernment don't you!  Your biggest need is maturity as your childishiness is tiring and unbecoming.

then quite replying to me .  Pretty simple.

Online Rella

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Re: Why are outside scripture references and explanations needed?
« Reply #14 on: Sun Jun 21, 2020 - 08:49:18 »
That's why you killed Jesus.

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