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soterion
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« on: October 30, 2009, 09:53:27 PM »

I want to start a fresh thread in order to try to deal with different aspects of the relationship between the Law of Moses and the Christian.

Sometimes in our discussions on this topic, a difference in terminology hinders unity of understanding and that can possibly hinder agreement where it may otherwise occur.  It may be that words like "Law" and "Gods' law" and "the Law of Moses" are being used in different ways by different people.  For example, some view the word "law" as applying to one law only and that it cannot refer to any different laws given at different times in different contexts of Scripture.  People will say that we are "under the law" without making a distinction between different laws, and I definitely believe that such distinctions must be made and that which law we are under must be specified.

I want to start off here by showing my viewpoint that the Ten Commandments are of the Law of Moses and are not to be considered as a separate law (of God).  Other controversial aspects of the title thought will come later (such as whether the Law including the Ten Commandments is binding today or not).

I did not originally intend for this long a post, but there is a lot of info and I want to be thorough.


Read Exodus 24:1-8; Hebrews 9:16-21. Moses records in Exodus the dedication of the covenant God made with the Israelites at Mt. Sinai. This covenant is referred to as 'the law' in the book of Hebrews. This law was composed of all the words given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. (Exodus 24:1-8).

In Exodus 24:3 & 8 we read, "Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, 'All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!'...So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, 'Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.'"

Read Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; I Kings 8:9, 21. Note that the Ten Commandments are called "...the covenant the Lord made with our fathers...the sons of Israel...when He brought them out of the land of Egypt." 

Some say the Ten Commandments are the law of God, but the rest of the law given on Mt. Sinai was the Law of Moses. Those who hold such views make a distinction between the two terms ('law of God' and 'law of Moses') that is not made in Scripture.

Read Ezra 7:6. The Law of Moses was given by God. Ezra was a scribe of this law.

Read Ezra 7:10-12. Ezra studied and practiced the law of the Lord, to teach His statutes and ordinances and commandments in Israel. Ezra was a scribe of the law of the Lord.

Read Nehemiah 8:1. Another reference to the Law of Moses having been given by the Lord. Remember that the Law of Moses was composed together in a book (Exodus 24:1-8). 

Read Nehemiah 8:5, 8, 18. Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people. This book is also called 'the law of God' and 'the book of the law of God'.

Read 2 Chronicles 34:14. Hilkiah the priest found the book of the law of the Lord given by Moses. Remember in Ezra 7:6 who gave the Law of Moses?

Just from these passages we can see that the Scriptures do not make a distinction between the Law of Moses and the law of God. These two terms are used interchangeably to describe the same book, the same law.

Read Luke 2:21-24. Here we read that Joseph and Mary took the baby Jesus to Jerusalem and presented Him to the Lord. Are we to distinguish between the Law of Moses and the law of the Lord here?

Read Leviticus 12:1-8. The four commands that Joseph and Mary obeyed were from the same law (days of purification, presentation in Jerusalem, circumcision, and blood sacrifices). There is no distinction between these terms.

Read Mark 7:10. Jesus said that the command 'Honor your Father and your Mother' is from Moses. This is one of the Ten Commandments.

In Matthew 5:21, 27, 31, 33, 38, and 43 we find a listing of some specific commands of the law that were being abused and mistaught by the Pharisees. Note that two of these are 'Commandments' (vv.21 & 27), and the rest are not. Do we find Jesus distinguishing between any of these commands, as if they were from separate laws? Jesus taught obedience to all of the law (vv.19 & 20), and He didn't distinguish between 'parts' of it. We must view the law the same way. God intended the law to be regarded as a whole, not to be divided up.

Read Matthew 22:35-40. Jesus, when asked which of the commands was greatest in the law, answered and said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.", and the second greatest is, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."  Why didn't He mention one, or some of, the Ten Commandments? In Matthew 19:16-19, Jesus lists the second great command along with some of the Ten Commandments. He doesn't distinguish between them as if they were from different laws. It is all one and the same law.

In my opinion, the Ten Commandments were part of the Law of Moses which included so many other commands for the Israelites.  That law was a unit that was not to be divided between "law of God" and "Law of Moses."  This Law was given as a whole to the Israelites by God through Moses at Mt. Sinai.
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« on: October 30, 2009, 09:53:27 PM »

 
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soterion
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2009, 10:00:28 PM »

I said before that I was thinking of defining terminology, at least my definitions, for clarification, but I think that as we go through different singular aspects of this topic, the definitions will come out.  If nothing else, if there is a question about what somebody means by some word or phrase, let's ask right away.  Smile
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2009, 10:00:28 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2009, 10:23:57 PM »

The issue is that we have a hard time distinguishing between having a listing of God's expectations (actually, a description of the character we are to reflect), and our need to follow them point by point so that we will be saved by so doing. This, according to Paul, was the mistake of Israel. Was the Law good? Yes. Would we be saved by keeping the points of the Law without embodying the principles behind them? No.

People are saved because their characters come to match God's; not because they can be trained to perform.
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2009, 10:44:22 PM »

There were many things that were put into the Law because they were RIGHT: they are still right but we are not under the curse of the Law of Moses.  The good part of the Law was to protect the people FROM the state or national religion which God abandoned them to.

There is only one spiritual Covenant: that which Christ made with Abraham and confirmed in Galatians 3 which LEAPFROGS over the Law of Moses.

When God tried to speak to the people they demanded a mediator and because they refused to hear God they were blinded until they turned to the Lord. 2 Cor. 3.

And he took The Book of the Covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. Exod 24:7

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words. Exod 24:8


The Book of the Covenant had 70 tenets: they were all conditional such as "IF you offer a sacrifice THEN this is how to do it."  This extended the Covenant of Grace made with Abraham and the first born sons were still tribal leaders.  The people pledged to obey those 70 laws.

However, while Moses was gone for 40 days to test the people they rose up to PLAY meaning the musical idolatry of the Egyptian trinity under the symbol of the Golden Calves.

When Moses came down he said that he did not hear the legitimate noise of WAR or of celebrating victory but  "It is singing that I hear."  Moses broke the tablets and they are never restated in the same form: they are stated for a people doomed to commingle with paganism. God sentenced them to go back to Babylon to carry out the captivity and death sentence. The conditional sentence began to be carried out when the elders fired God and demanded a human king: God understood that they wanted "to worship like the nations." He gave them kings in His anger but warned that they would rob, steal and enslave them and He would not stop it.

Stephen and many others say that God turned them over to worship the starry host and it is clear that the Jerusalem temple was devoted to STAR and SERPENT worship: the Levites as an old cult in Egypt devoted to burning infants to Molech continued in the wilderness and in Jerusalem.

God then gave The Book of the Law of Moses: This was a firey law to legislate for the lawless and to protect the weak from the growing Civil-Military-Clergy complex.  Christ in the prophets say this is not what God commanded when He saved them by grace and defined them as robbers and parasites. Fittingly, in Greek the sacrificial musician (made noise) is called a PARASITE.  A HERETIC is defined as the priest who lifts the lambs up to cut their throats.

At the same time in Numbers 10 the assembly of the people as the church in the wilderness was the Qahal, synagogue or Ekklesia in Stephen's account in Acts 7.  Stephen also repudiated the temple and the whole false system and got himself murdered.

The Holy Convocation was on the First and Seventh days of festivals and on each SABBATH day in organized synagogues.

That was INCLUSIVE of REST (sabbath), READING and REHEARSING the Word of god.

That was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing. Just common sense when you grasp that a Disciple goes to Bible class and not a worship ritual which makes sure you don't hear or sing "that which is written."


That defined the synagogue from the wilderness onward for those NOT of the tribe of Levi.  Jacob had pronounced a curse against Levi and warned us NOT to attend their assemblies. The Church QUARANTINED the Spiritual people from the temple for BIBLE STUDY which is the sole purpose of a church.
The Law of Moses had no effect on the spirit or conscience.  The Civil-Military-Clergy complex was abandoned to a NATIONAL sacrificial system just like all of the goyim or gentiles including Canaan, Babylon and Egypt to which God abandoned them.

There is NOTHING in the Law of Moses which has any place in the Church as a school of the Bible: Paul's only worship word means to give heed to the Word of Christ.

A shadow is not a GOOD TYPE:

Skia
2. reflection, image (in a bowl of oil), Sch.Il.17.755.
3. shade of one dead, phantom, Od.10.495,  A.Th.992,
of worthless things, that phantom at Delphi (Apollo or Apollyon or Abaddon and the Muses)
4. evil spirit, 
also, of one worn to a shadow,

That is why Israel's was a COVENANT WITH DEATH: Amos defines it perfectly using the term MARZEAH.
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2009, 12:52:26 PM »

The Law of Moses was limited to a certain time and people.

It had a beginning:

Galatians 3:16-19.
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.


The Law given by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai has not always existed.  It began at Sinai 430 years after the promises were given to Abraham.


It was given to a specific people:

We find this out when reading Exodus 19:1-8, Deuteronomy 5:1-4, 2 Kings 17:34-37, and Psalm 147:19-20, we find that the Law of Moses in its entirety was given only to the nation of Israel, the fleshly descendants of Jacob.

In Exodus 19:5 we read: "...if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples..."

In Deuteronomy 5:3 we read: "The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."  This covenant was based on the giving of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:28).


It had an end:

In Galatians 3:19 we read: "...until the seed would come..."

In Galatians 3:23-25 we read: But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

In 2 Corinthians 3:2-15 we learn that the phrases "tablets of stone" and "letters engraved on stone" refer to the Ten Commandments.  These tablets were given and then Moses' face shone when he came down from the mountain.  This Law is spoken of as being "the ministry of death" and "the ministry of condemnation," and even in Moses day when he came down from the mountain with the tablets of stone, that ministry was "fading as it was...that which fades away...what was fading away."

In Ephesians 2:14-15 we read: For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

The Law of commandments was what divided the Jews from the Gentiles; it was the dividing wall.  Jesus took it out of the way in His body so as to join the two into one new man.


The Law of Moses is not to be pursued today as the way of life God wants for us.
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2009, 02:48:49 PM »

The Law of Moses was limited to a certain time and people.
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The Law of Moses is not to be pursued today as the way of life God wants for us.

What part of the Law is not to be pursued.  Paul seemed to indicate in Romans 7 that the law is holy, righteous and good.  That doesn't sound to me like he said anything about it being set aside.
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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2009, 06:46:51 PM »

Jimmy,

Nothing I have shown about the Law of Moses in those passages takes away from what God says about it in Romans 7:12.  That is was taken out of the way does not mean it was unholy or unrighteous or evil.

In the same way, Romans 7:12 says nothing about the inclusivity and permanence of the Law.

Don't think that just because something is good automatically means it has to abide forever or apply to all.

Also, Scripture does not divide up the Law into parts where one part remains and another is taken away.  The Law is treated as a whole.
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009, 07:35:36 PM »

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. 2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD. 3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;

Exod 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Exod 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Lev 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; 4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

Num 15:40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. 41 I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

Deut 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deut 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deut 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandmentswhich I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, 14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil. 15 And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full.

God Himself made the major separation that exists between the ten commandments, and the rest of the old covenant law.  He descended to earth, and spoke the ten to Israel with His own mouth, then He wrote them with his own finger, twice.  Even after Moses smashed the first copy, God would not let Moses write them, but God Himself wrote them again.  The rest of the law was written by the hand of Moses, and spoken by him to the same.  Anyone who does not want to see and acknowledge this difference, is simply making a choice to ignore the obvious for whatever purpose they might have. 

The seventh day sabbath of the fourth commandment was instituted at creation before the law was spoken by God.  He refers to it as His continuously also.

Exod 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths,and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Ezek 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my Sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Ezek 23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. 24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.[/u]
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2009, 08:04:37 PM »

Amo,

Great passages.  What is your point?
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2009, 08:12:06 PM »

The Law of Moses was limited to a certain time and people.
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     .
     .
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The Law of Moses is not to be pursued today as the way of life God wants for us.

What part of the Law is not to be pursued.  Paul seemed to indicate in Romans 7 that the law is holy, righteous and good.  That doesn't sound to me like he said anything about it being set aside.
Paul said a couple things about the Law:
1. It was added to lead us (Israel) to Christ - the Law is not the point, but simply a tool.
2. Because the Law essentially defines sin, it cannot save but only accuse.
3. While the Law is good (in that it shows us our failings), Israel's mistake as well as current well-meaning folk, was to make it a checklist righteousness.
4. What is needed is not a checklist to pursue (as good as that checklist might be), but rather a transformed life based on and shaped by actual believing in God.
5. That the Law was given to Israel and could not of itself incorporate the Gentiles into the people of God - even now.

Conclusion: should we "pursue" the Law? No. We should pursue God, allowing Him to transform us into His likeness.
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2009, 10:21:06 PM »

2 Cor. 3:14-16, "But there minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains, when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers there hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Gal 3:10, "All who rely on observing the law are UNDER A CURSE."  The OT law is not for us today as something much better has come and that is Jesus Christ who not only shows us what sin is but also gives us the power to overcome sin. As mentioned the OT law was one piece and was never meant to be "sliced and diced".
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 08:43:07 AM »

Quote
The Law of commandments was what divided the Jews from the Gentiles; it was the dividing wall.  Jesus took it out of the way in His body so as to join the two into one new man.


The Law of Moses is not to be pursued today as the way of life God wants for us.
 
 

He gave the law to the Isrealites because they and they alone were His people. It wasn't a dividing wall. The mystery revealed when the veil was torn asunder was Christ.

What do you mean when you say the law is not for us today?  Shouldn't we love God or respect him?  He hates sin in the OT and he has never changed, he still hates sin and is coming to destroy it.  No matter who you are He will destroy you and take your name out of his book.

I'm talking about the moral laws of God. Jesus never lowered them nor did he take them away.

 
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Psalms 118:24  "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 10:25:05 AM »

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Amo,

Great passages.  What is your point?

Why do you want to make the Ten Commandments the law of Moses, when God refers to them as His commandments over and over.  He performed one of the greatest supernatural events in the history of the world when He descended upon the earth for the very purpose of speaking those commandments from his own mouth, and writing them with His own finger.  No written, or spoken words on earth have any greater authority. 

The laws spoken and written by God cannot be changed by anyone but God.  Christ, who was God, testified that He had not come to change them in any way, but to fulfill them.  He said they would not change till heaven and earth pass.  This had to be in reference to the Ten Commandments, for Christ Himself knew that His life and death would certainly bring about changes in the laws which Moses wrote and spoke to Israel.  Those laws were always meant to be replaced by that which was superior, which is Christ and Him crucified, and Him resurrected.

These were the civil, and ceremonial laws which could not but be changed, once the Messiah had come in the flesh and fulfilled the sacrifice which they pointed to.  The entire nation and economy of Israel centered around the sanctuary and it's services.  When these services were no longer required, both were subject to major changes.  Christ hinted of these changes to the woman at the well. 

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


The new testament is filled with these issues regarding what has changed, and what has not.  Paul deals extensively with these issues, being an apostle to the gentiles.  While many of the laws of Moses did of necessity change, and were always meant to after the coming of Christ, the law of God did not.  Paul makes it clear, that the gospel does not abolish the law, but rather establishes the same.  Even the laws of Moses which out of necessity are no more, are not gone because they were bad, but because they were meant to be replaced by that which was better, that which they only pointed to.  The things they represented, are now established.  Apart from this, the civil laws also could not remain the same, once the nation itself changed so drastically.

The ten commandments of God however, remain the standard they have always been, and are held up as such even to the last book and chapters of the bible.  This is because the entire gospel is about changing our condition in relation to them, not them in relation to our condition.  Our condition is one of self exaltation, and rebellion against God's authority.  Thus the law, which clearly points out our condition and need of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Our salvation did, and does not change it, it changes us in relation to it.  It changes us from law breaking rebellious sinners, to law abiding willfully submitted citizens of the kingdom of God.  From being those made in the likeness of the fallen one whom they chose to obey, into the image of the loving obedient Son of God. 

The choice that we have to make is in direct relation to the law of God.  Will we humble ourselves like our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in perfect obedience to our heavenly Father, or will we rebel against the perfect law of liberty in self exaltation of our own authority above and apart from God?  Will we be sons of God, or sons of perdition?

II Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


What does it mean to pick up the cross and follow Jesus, if not the crucifixion of the flesh and it's desires, and the resurrection of the Spirit of God within unto perfect obedience and submission to Him who alone has proved His worthiness to receive both.

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.


















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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 10:25:05 AM »

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soterion
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2009, 10:38:15 AM »

He gave the law to the Isrealites because they and they alone were His people. It wasn't a dividing wall. The mystery revealed when the veil was torn asunder was Christ.

What do you mean when you say the law is not for us today?  Shouldn't we love God or respect him?  He hates sin in the OT and he has never changed, he still hates sin and is coming to destroy it.  No matter who you are He will destroy you and take your name out of his book.

I'm talking about the moral laws of God. Jesus never lowered them nor did he take them away.

 


The Law of commandments was what divided between the Jew and Gentile.  That is what Ephesians 2:14-15 says.  In verse 15 he calls it the enmity.  Jesus took it out of the way so as to bring about one new man in Him.

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

I am not saying that God does not require that we live according to His will.  He does have a moral law that applies to all people for all time since the beginning (Romans 5:12-13).  Notice that Romans 5:13 that until the Law sin was in the world.  There was a time when the Law was not in the world (Paul is talking about the Law of Moses) but there was law or else there would have been no sin.  That men were sinners proves that there was law, but it was not the codified Law given through Moses.

My contention is that the Law given through Moses to the Israelites at Mt. Sinai is a codified representation of the moral law into a legal system that applied only to the Israelites from the time of Sinai to the time of the cross of Christ.  It was not given to anybody before Sinai, it was not given to anybody else during the time between Sinai and the cross, and finally, it is not given to anybody since the cross.

God removed that legal system, which included the Ten Commandments, but His moral law still applies.  It applied to all before the Law of Moses was given, it applied to the Gentiles during the time of the Law (and it applied to the Jews, but it was codified), and it applies to all now.  In Christ we are under a different law, that of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), the law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21).  This law does for us what the Law of commandments could not do (Acts 13:39); it frees us from the law of sin and of death; it frees us from our sins.

One thing that might help to some degree is to remember that in the first century, the Law of Moses was still being strictly observed by many, and even some converted Jews in the church wanted to apply the Law to themselves and others.  Thus Paul had to deal with this in his letters, such as in Romans and Galatians.  When reading these, look for the definite article before the word "law."  Unless it is explicitly stated or strongly implied, that combination "the law" will refer to the Law of Moses.  Without the definite article it can refer to law in general. 

Most translations fail to include the definite article before “law” when it is in the Greek in some passages.  Young's Literal Translation seems to be faithful to the Greek in this respect.  I mention this because I believe that we need to be sure to define terms and to apply them accordingly in order to understand each other and to hopefully better understand the word of God.
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Tantor
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2009, 10:38:37 AM »

Why did he wait thousands of years prior to giving them to Moses on Sinai?... if they weren't specifically for Israel?

Giving them to Noah would have been the most optimal time for God to have given his 10 commandments if they were meant for the entire world.. or better yet Adam and Eve.

Instead for some reason, he gave them at the same time he made his covenant with Israel.... yet you believe they apply to everyone?

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