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soterion
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« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2009, 11:17:10 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on November 05, 2009, 11:53:11 AM
If the (old) law no longer exists, what was Paul talking about in Romans 7 when he said,

12  So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.
13  Did then that which is good become death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; - that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful.
14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

I believe I at least partly gave you a thought on those words in posts #5 and #6 on the first page.

Notice earlier in the chapter that Paul said that those Jews were made dead to the Law.  He is not talking to us today in those very words because we were never under it.  We are dead to it; we were not made dead to it.  There is a difference (we were never alive to it).

Look at 2 Corinthians 3.  What is being described as "letters engraved on stone" and "tables of stone," which is the ministry of death and condemnation, which glory was fading in comparison to the ministry of life in the Spirit, and was fading away?  It is the Ten Commandments.
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« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2009, 11:17:10 PM »
 
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soterion
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« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2009, 11:27:59 PM »
Quote from: fish153 on November 05, 2009, 11:54:16 AM
soterion---

"Pilgrim's Progress" is a very famous allegory written by John Bunyan back in the late 1500's.  It is the story of a man on his way to the Celestial City.  I just gave it as an example, as it is a reflection of how a person becomes convicted, comes to Christ and begins his journey to Heaven.  It is a very famous book----you should read it sometime.

Read Romans 3 in regards to the Law.  Read verse 31.  Christ did not "do away" with the Law----he fulfilled it.  The Law is still in effect---in fact, many at the Great White throne will be judged BY IT---as they did not accept the righteousness in Christ, but went about trying to establish their own righteousness, or ignored the call altogether.   The Law is in effect to drive us to Christ.  Once we accept and become "IN CHRIST" we are free from the guilt of sin and the judgment of the Law----but those who have not accepted Christ are still subject to it.

Who knows but that I might have the chance to read that book someday.  It sounds good.

I personally believe that people outside of Christ are under the same law that people were under before the Law of Moses was given, which is the same law that the Gentiles were under while the Jews were under the Law of Moses.  That law from God has always existed from the beginning and it will continue until the end.  It can be called the moral law or the patriarchal law.

The Law of Moses was given by Moses to the Hebrews only and it served only until Christ came.  That Law was a shadow of what we have today in Christ inasmuch as the Old Covenant was a shadow of the New Covenant.  The Law of Moses and the Old Covenant are inseparable just as the Law of Christ and the New Covenant are inseparable.  What happens to the Law happens to the Covenant and vice-versa.  The Old Covenant was done away as was the Law that was its basis (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 5:1-3).
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« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2009, 11:27:59 PM »
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« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2009, 07:54:42 AM »
Quote from: soterion on November 05, 2009, 11:17:10 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on November 05, 2009, 11:53:11 AM
If the (old) law no longer exists, what was Paul talking about in Romans 7 when he said,

12  So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.
13  Did then that which is good become death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might be shown to be sin, by working death to me through that which is good; - that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful.
14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

I believe I at least partly gave you a thought on those words in posts #5 and #6 on the first page.

Notice earlier in the chapter that Paul said that those Jews were made dead to the Law.  He is not talking to us today in those very words because we were never under it.  We are dead to it; we were not made dead to it.  There is a difference (we were never alive to it).

Look at 2 Corinthians 3.  What is being described as "letters engraved on stone" and "tables of stone," which is the ministry of death and condemnation, which glory was fading in comparison to the ministry of life in the Spirit, and was fading away?  It is the Ten Commandments.

2Co 3:7  But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

It was the glory that shown on Moses face that was fading.  It was not the glory of that came with the Ten Commandments. 

2Co 3:8  how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Now indeed, the glory that comes with the ministry of the Spirit is even more than that that came with the "letters engraved on stones"; but there is nothing there to suggest that the law is going away.

Paul says in Romans 7 that

4  Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.

I would point out first it is both law and the Law (i.e., the Law of Moses) that Paul is speaking of here (see Romans 1).  Paul says here that we were made dead to the Law (or law) just as we were made dead to sin (Rom 6:11).  He is not speaking of the commandments of God being done away with in any fashion.  Rather he is describing what Christ accomplished when we were baptized into Christ (Rom 6:3ff).  We were made to die to the Law and to sin and then resurrected to life in Christ Jesus.

Notice specifically what Paul says in the 7:6:

Rom 7:6  But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

We have been released from the Law.  That doesn't mean that the Law was made null and void or that now we can go around murdering, stealing, coventing, and all  other things counter to the Law.  It means that we no longer will be condemned by the Law to eternal death.
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« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2009, 09:07:57 AM »
Quote

2Co 3:7  But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

It was the glory that shown on Moses face that was fading.  It was not the glory of that came with the Ten Commandments. 

2Co 3:8  how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Now indeed, the glory that comes with the ministry of the Spirit is even more than that that came with the "letters engraved on stones"; but there is nothing there to suggest that the law is going away.



2Cr 3:9    For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.

2Cr 3:10    Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it.

2Cr 3:11    For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

ESV
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« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2009, 11:37:56 AM »
You all must not be able to see my posting or just out right ignore but I think you have missed the point.I have already posted some things to ponder over but seems to have been over looked on this matter. The Law is a covenant God made with Israel which the ten commandment was (by name ten commandment ) part of that covenant first given in written form To Moses from God.

But we are under a new covenant.

For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made also in the law. Hebrews 7:12

While it is true that we are under a new covenant we are under a new law. This new law may contain some things from the old law but it is not the old being it replaced the old. There is most of the ten commands in the new but they were in place un-written even before the old covenant. Just because we still live by some of the commands that were in all the covenants does not mean that the old was not replaced with the new. The teaching of God just does not allow both covenants to stand at the same time. Either we are in the old or new covenant but no way can the new and old be in force at the same time.

Hope this makes sense and if not please tell me where I missed the boat.
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« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2009, 07:38:46 PM »
Quote from: soterion on November 03, 2009, 12:52:26 PM
The Law of Moses was limited to a certain time and people.

It had a beginning:

Galatians 3:16-19.
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

The Law given by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai has not always existed.  It began at Sinai 430 years after the promises were given to Abraham.


It was given to a specific people:

We find this out when reading Exodus 19:1-8, Deuteronomy 5:1-4, 2 Kings 17:34-37, and Psalm 147:19-20, we find that the Law of Moses in its entirety was given only to the nation of Israel, the fleshly descendants of Jacob.

In Exodus 19:5 we read: "...if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples..."

In Deuteronomy 5:3 we read: "The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."  This covenant was based on the giving of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:28).


It had an end:

In Galatians 3:19 we read: "...until the seed would come..."

In Galatians 3:23-25 we read: But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

In 2 Corinthians 3:2-15 we learn that the phrases "tablets of stone" and "letters engraved on stone" refer to the Ten Commandments.  These tablets were given and then Moses' face shone when he came down from the mountain.  This Law is spoken of as being "the ministry of death" and "the ministry of condemnation," and even in Moses day when he came down from the mountain with the tablets of stone, that ministry was "fading as it was...that which fades away...what was fading away."

In Ephesians 2:14-15 we read: For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

The Law of commandments was what divided the Jews from the Gentiles; it was the dividing wall.  Jesus took it out of the way in His body so as to join the two into one new man.


The Law of Moses is not to be pursued today as the way of life God wants for us.


Lets take another look at (Gal. 3:1, 13, 16-17, 19, 24) (v.1) O FOOLISH Ga-la’-tians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (v.13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVER YONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE:

What law is this talking about? Let the bible speak for itself. (

v.16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of One, AND TO THY SEED, which is Christ. (v.17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Now pay attention, the law that is being spoken of here came four hundred and thirty years after this covenant. But God’s holy commandments have been around forever even before man was created. Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments).

(v.19) Wherefore then serveth the law?

A question is being asked here. Then why should we serve this law? It was added because of transgression, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the law that we are talking about here was added because of sin. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) So, now know that sin is the transgression of the law. How do you add a law if sin is the transgression of the law? Because there are two sets of laws, you have God’s holy commandments which abided forever, and you had the animal sacrificial law which was added because of sin, but it was only good until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and that seed was Jesus. (v.24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster. And this schoolmaster taught you that when you sinned in ignorance blood had to be shed (an animal sacrificed). But Christ being the ultimate sacrifice shed his precious blood once and for all, and by doing this putting an end to the animal sacrificial law.
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« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2009, 07:38:46 PM »
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soterion
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« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2009, 07:45:04 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on November 06, 2009, 07:54:42 AM
2Co 3:7  But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

It was the glory that shown on Moses face that was fading.  It was not the glory of that came with the Ten Commandments. 

2Co 3:8  how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Now indeed, the glory that comes with the ministry of the Spirit is even more than that that came with the "letters engraved on stones"; but there is nothing there to suggest that the law is going away.

You say from the first Scripture quote that it was the glory showing from Moses' face that was fading, not the glory that came with the Ten Commandments.  But then you say from the second Scripture quote that the glory that came with the Spirit is greater than that which came with the Ten Commandments. 

However, in those passages it is that which had the lesser glory, the ministration of death and condemnation, that was fading away.  The glowing of Moses' face is being used by Paul as an allegory to describe the glory of what he gave the Israelites from the mountain, the Ten Commandments.

Quote from: Jimmy on November 06, 2009, 07:54:42 AM
Paul says in Romans 7 that

4  Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.

I would point out first it is both law and the Law (i.e., the Law of Moses) that Paul is speaking of here (see Romans 1).  Paul says here that we were made dead to the Law (or law) just as we were made dead to sin (Rom 6:11).  He is not speaking of the commandments of God being done away with in any fashion.  Rather he is describing what Christ accomplished when we were baptized into Christ (Rom 6:3ff).  We were made to die to the Law and to sin and then resurrected to life in Christ Jesus.

Notice specifically what Paul says in the 7:6:

Rom 7:6  But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

We have been released from the Law.  That doesn't mean that the Law was made null and void or that now we can go around murdering, stealing, coventing, and all  other things counter to the Law.  It means that we no longer will be condemned by the Law to eternal death.

I believe that in the context of those passages in Romans 7, the same Law, that of Moses, is being described.  Paul uses an illustration in the first three verses to describe the relationship of the first century Jew to the Law they were under, and how in Christ they were made dead to it.  They were released from the Law that said, "You shall not covet."

As I strove to make very clear in earlier posts, this does not mean they were being told they are free to sin because there is no law, but rather there is a law, just not that of Moses.
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« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2009, 07:50:56 PM »
bro.tan,

Read the thread OP.  I believe you are making a division in the Law of Moses that Scripture does not make.

It is to be treated as a whole, not divided up into parts to take or leave.  What is described in any context as happening to some aspect of the Law of Moses actually means that it happens to all of it.
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The Law of Moses and the Christian - Pages: 1 2 3 [4] Go Up Print 
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