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Author Topic: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church  (Read 4892 times)

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Offline Victor08

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2012, 07:45:50 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

Irreducible complexity (IC) is an argument by proponents of intelligent design that certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved from simpler, or "less complete" predecessors, through natural selection acting upon a series of advantageous naturally occurring, chance mutations.[1] The argument is central to intelligent design, and is rejected by the scientific community at large,[2] which overwhelmingly regards intelligent design as pseudoscience.[3] Irreducible complexity is one of two main arguments used by intelligent design proponents, the other being specified complexity.[4]

Biochemistry professor Michael Behe, the originator of the term irreducible complexity, defines an irreducibly complex system as one "composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning".[5] Evolutionary biologists have shown that such systems can evolve,[6] and that Behe's examples constitute an argument from ignorance.[7] In the 2005 Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, Behe gave testimony on the subject of irreducible complexity. The court found that "Professor Behe's claim for irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large."[2]
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Falsifiability and experimental evidence

Some critics, such as Jerry Coyne (professor of evolutionary biology at the University of Chicago) and Eugenie Scott (a physical anthropologist and executive director of the National Center for Science Education) have argued that the concept of irreducible complexity, and more generally, the theory of intelligent design is not falsifiable, and therefore, not scientific.

Behe argues that the theory that irreducibly complex systems could not have been evolved can be falsified by an experiment where such systems are evolved. For example, he posits taking bacteria with no flagellum and imposing a selective pressure for mobility. If, after a few thousand generations, the bacteria evolved the bacterial flagellum, then Behe believes that this would refute his theory.[citation needed]

Other critics take a different approach, pointing to experimental evidence that they believe falsifies the argument for Intelligent Design from irreducible complexity. For example, Kenneth Miller cites the lab work of Barry G. Hall on E. coli, which he asserts is evidence that "Behe is wrong."[81]

Other evidence that irreducible complexity is not a problem for evolution comes from the field of computer science, where computer analogues of the processes of evolution are routinely used to automatically design complex solutions to problems. The results of such Genetic Algorithms are frequently irreducibly complex since the process, like evolution, both removes non-essential components over time as well as adding new components. The removal of unused components with no essential function, like the natural process where rock underneath a natural arch is removed, can produce irreducibly complex structures without requiring the intervention of a designer. Researchers applying these algorithms are automatically producing human competitive designs—but no human designer is required.[82]

Argument from ignorance

Intelligent design proponents attribute to an intelligent designer those biological structures they believe are irreducibly complex and whereof they say a natural explanation is insufficient to account for them.[83] However, critics view irreducible complexity as a special case of the "complexity indicates design" claim, and thus see it as an argument from ignorance and God of the gaps argument.[7]

Eugenie Scott, along with Glenn Branch and other critics, has argued that many points raised by intelligent design proponents are arguments from ignorance.[84] Behe has been accused of using an "argument by lack of imagination", and Behe himself acknowledges that a failure of current science to explain how an "irreducibly complex" organism did or could evolve does not automatically prove the impossibility of such an evolution.

Irreducible complexity is at its core an argument against evolution. If truly irreducible systems are found, the argument goes, then intelligent design must be the correct explanation for their existence. However, this conclusion is based on the assumption that current evolutionary theory and intelligent design are the only two valid models to explain life, a false dilemma.[85][86]

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2012, 07:45:50 PM »

Offline Victor08

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2012, 07:47:12 PM »
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ICsilly.html

Introduction

Michael Behe's term "irreducible complexity" is, to be frank, plainly silly — and here's why.

"Irreducible complexity" is a simple concept. According to Behe, a system is irreducibly complex if its function is lost when a part is removed1. Behe believes that irreducibly complex systems cannot evolve by direct, gradual evolutionary mechanisms. However, standard genetic processes easily produce these structures. Nearly a century ago, these exact systems were predicted, described, and explained by the Nobel prize-winning geneticist H. J. Muller using evolutionary theory2. Thus, as explained below, so-called "irreducibly complex" structures are in fact evolvable and reducible. Behe gave irreducible complexity the wrong name.

Behe's flawed argument

Behe claims that irreducibly complex systems cannot be produced directly by gradual evolution3. But why not? Behe's reckoning goes like this:

•   (P1) Direct, gradual evolution proceeds only by stepwise addition of parts.
•   (P2) By definition, an irreducibly complex system lacking a part is nonfunctional.
•   (C) Therefore, all possible direct gradual evolutionary precursors to an irreducibly complex system must be nonfunctional.

Of course, Behe's argument is invalid since the first premise is false: gradual evolution can do much more than just add parts. For instance, evolution can also change or remove parts (pretty simple, eh?). In contrast, Behe's irreducible complexity is restricted to only reversing the addition of parts. This is why irreducible complexity cannot tell us anything useful about how a structure did or did not evolve.

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2012, 07:47:12 PM »

Offline Cally

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2012, 09:59:29 PM »
^Victor,

Evolution is an unspeakably stupid theory, and these rebuttals demonstrate just plain poor listening skills with regard to their opposition.
Quote
However, this conclusion is based on the assumption that current evolutionary theory and intelligent design are the only two valid models to explain life, a false dilemma

The whole debate is about whether or not God created every individual organism as the Bible claims or whether all organisms come from the same ancestry, and all this statement is really saying with "false dilemma" is that some creative person may come up with some other idea about how living things needn't have been created by God.

Stupid. Just a stupid retort. Do I really have to explain why?

Quote
gradual evolution can do much more than just add parts. For instance, evolution can also change or remove parts

Oh no, it looks like the irreducible complexity argument just shattered right there! Not. This statement changes nothing about the fact that large numbers of changes happening simultaneously need to occur to create a new organism from an old one.

Finally, the flaw of Darwinist theory is just so obvious that I can only think people just got tired of repeating it: evolution isn't necessary for superior abilities to survive.

The Dodo went extinct, while some of the oldest strains of bacteria still exist today. What, may I ask, were some of those stupid bacteria thinking wasting all of that time evolving into a Dodo when they were doing such a better job surviving so much lower on the evolutionary tree? Fortunately for the entire food chain, some of the old bacteria happened to have the right idea about staying as they were.

And now I'm going to pick on atheists (or at least a large category of them) and their total failure to demonstrate a remotely cohesive value system. According to Darwinist theory, the purpose of all organisms is to reproduce. And yet, that's the same crowd that wants to promote acceptance of homosexuality. Homosexuals, according to Darwinists, fail at fulfilling the fundamental directive of all living things.

But suddenly, they don't bother to apply their ethos. They demonstrate that they are just looking for ways to oppose God, not establish a worldview.
I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2012, 09:59:29 PM »

Offline Victor08

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2012, 10:40:58 PM »
^Victor,

Evolution is an unspeakably stupid theory, and these rebuttals demonstrate just plain poor listening skills with regard to their opposition.
Quote
However, this conclusion is based on the assumption that current evolutionary theory and intelligent design are the only two valid models to explain life, a false dilemma

The whole debate is about whether or not God created every individual organism as the Bible claims or whether all organisms come from the same ancestry, and all this statement is really saying with "false dilemma" is that some creative person may come up with some other idea about how living things needn't have been created by God.

Stupid. Just a stupid retort. Do I really have to explain why?

Quote
gradual evolution can do much more than just add parts. For instance, evolution can also change or remove parts

Oh no, it looks like the irreducible complexity argument just shattered right there! Not. This statement changes nothing about the fact that large numbers of changes happening simultaneously need to occur to create a new organism from an old one.

Finally, the flaw of Darwinist theory is just so obvious that I can only think people just got tired of repeating it: evolution isn't necessary for superior abilities to survive.

The Dodo went extinct, while some of the oldest strains of bacteria still exist today. What, may I ask, were some of those stupid bacteria thinking wasting all of that time evolving into a Dodo when they were doing such a better job surviving so much lower on the evolutionary tree? Fortunately for the entire food chain, some of the old bacteria happened to have the right idea about staying as they were.

And now I'm going to pick on atheists (or at least a large category of them) and their total failure to demonstrate a remotely cohesive value system. According to Darwinist theory, the purpose of all organisms is to reproduce. And yet, that's the same crowd that wants to promote acceptance of homosexuality. Homosexuals, according to Darwinists, fail at fulfilling the fundamental directive of all living things.

But suddenly, they don't bother to apply their ethos. They demonstrate that they are just looking for ways to oppose God, not establish a worldview.

You know what Cally, I have come to the conclusion that even if you were able to go back in time and watch Evolution happening, you still wouldn’t be convinced, because it goes against what you believe.

So with that - I am out.

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2012, 10:40:58 PM »

Offline wayseer

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 12:45:42 AM »

Finally, the flaw of Darwinist theory is just so obvious that I can only think people just got tired of repeating it: evolution isn't necessary for superior abilities to survive.

Perhaps you should present a paper to that effect and thereby alert all scientists to the 'obvious flaw' which they have all overlooked.  You could make yourself a tidy sum then written a book and gain the inevitable film rights.

Good luck
Not all those who wander are lost.

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 12:45:42 AM »



Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 11:58:36 AM »

And now I'm going to pick on atheists (or at least a large category of them) and their total failure to demonstrate a remotely cohesive value system. According to Darwinist theory, the purpose of all organisms is to reproduce. And yet, that's the same crowd that wants to promote acceptance of homosexuality. Homosexuals, according to Darwinists, fail at fulfilling the fundamental directive of all living things.

But suddenly, they don't bother to apply their ethos. They demonstrate that they are just looking for ways to oppose God, not establish a worldview.

And opposing the first gift that God gave man, free will, is moral? If you think free will is immoral then take up the issue with God, not Atheist and leave the gays out of it. Unless you you agree that having the free will to choose should be taken away from you too.
Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 11:58:36 AM »

Offline Cally

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 12:07:46 PM »

And now I'm going to pick on atheists (or at least a large category of them) and their total failure to demonstrate a remotely cohesive value system. According to Darwinist theory, the purpose of all organisms is to reproduce. And yet, that's the same crowd that wants to promote acceptance of homosexuality. Homosexuals, according to Darwinists, fail at fulfilling the fundamental directive of all living things.

But suddenly, they don't bother to apply their ethos. They demonstrate that they are just looking for ways to oppose God, not establish a worldview.

And opposing the first gift that God gave man, free will, is moral? If you think free will is immoral then take up the issue with God, not Atheist and leave the gays out of it. Unless you you agree that having the free will to choose should be taken away from you too.

I have no idea where this statement even came from in context of the discussion.

But I wouldn't have to argue with God about "free will." The phrase (or anything translated remotely like it) doesn't appear in the Bible. I'd only be arguing with people who invented the term.
I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 03:24:24 PM »

And now I'm going to pick on atheists (or at least a large category of them) and their total failure to demonstrate a remotely cohesive value system. According to Darwinist theory, the purpose of all organisms is to reproduce. And yet, that's the same crowd that wants to promote acceptance of homosexuality. Homosexuals, according to Darwinists, fail at fulfilling the fundamental directive of all living things.

But suddenly, they don't bother to apply their ethos. They demonstrate that they are just looking for ways to oppose God, not establish a worldview.

And opposing the first gift that God gave man, free will, is moral? If you think free will is immoral then take up the issue with God, not Atheist and leave the gays out of it. Unless you you agree that having the free will to choose should be taken away from you too.

I have no idea where this statement even came from in context of the discussion.

But I wouldn't have to argue with God about "free will." The phrase (or anything translated remotely like it) doesn't appear in the Bible. I'd only be arguing with people who invented the term.

It's just the freedom to choose God's will or our own.

In fact most of the book is about stories of people that chose to do God's will and stories about people that chose their own will.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 03:33:38 PM by Bitter Sweet »
Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Offline Cally

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 06:03:48 PM »

And now I'm going to pick on atheists (or at least a large category of them) and their total failure to demonstrate a remotely cohesive value system. According to Darwinist theory, the purpose of all organisms is to reproduce. And yet, that's the same crowd that wants to promote acceptance of homosexuality. Homosexuals, according to Darwinists, fail at fulfilling the fundamental directive of all living things.

But suddenly, they don't bother to apply their ethos. They demonstrate that they are just looking for ways to oppose God, not establish a worldview.

And opposing the first gift that God gave man, free will, is moral? If you think free will is immoral then take up the issue with God, not Atheist and leave the gays out of it. Unless you you agree that having the free will to choose should be taken away from you too.

I have no idea where this statement even came from in context of the discussion.

But I wouldn't have to argue with God about "free will." The phrase (or anything translated remotely like it) doesn't appear in the Bible. I'd only be arguing with people who invented the term.

It's just the freedom to choose God's will or our own.

In fact most of the book is about stories of people that chose to do God's will and stories about people that chose their own will.

Yes, people make choices.  ::nodding:: Some right, some wrong.

There's no need to expound (i.e. make up a bunch of nonsense) on the fact by inventing a special term for that.
I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 06:03:48 PM »

Offline Cally

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 11:06:34 PM »

Finally, the flaw of Darwinist theory is just so obvious that I can only think people just got tired of repeating it: evolution isn't necessary for superior abilities to survive.

Perhaps you should present a paper to that effect and thereby alert all scientists to the 'obvious flaw' which they have all overlooked.  You could make yourself a tidy sum then written a book and gain the inevitable film rights.

Good luck

I'm not the only one who has ever proposed that argument, I'm rather certain. I think the intelligent design folks have found it to be one of the many statements that result in Darwinists making matter-of-fact statements and just "walking away" from such a basic question that they can't answer.

In other words, they lose the argument so many ways and will ignore the replies, but what can you do?

I remember arguing against the selfish gene theory with someone and ended up getting retorts that just showed he was out of ideas but not going to change his mind. Basically, they propose that all ideological institutions (such as religions) exist to put someone "at the top" for the all-important task of passing on the genes, but then the existence of Darwinists themselves don't make any sense--why wouldn't Darwinists seek to become deceivers and inventors of new religions if that were the case, rather than become saints who reveal the truth to the general world?  ::shrug::
I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 11:06:34 PM »

Offline wayseer

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2012, 01:06:40 AM »
I'm not the only one who has ever proposed that argument, I'm rather certain. I think the intelligent design folks have found it to be one of the many statements that result in Darwinists making matter-of-fact statements and just "walking away" from such a basic question that they can't answer.

In other words, they lose the argument so many ways and will ignore the replies, but what can you do?

I remember arguing against the selfish gene theory with someone and ended up getting retorts that just showed he was out of ideas but not going to change his mind. Basically, they propose that all ideological institutions (such as religions) exist to put someone "at the top" for the all-important task of passing on the genes, but then the existence of Darwinists themselves don't make any sense--why wouldn't Darwinists seek to become deceivers and inventors of new religions if that were the case, rather than become saints who reveal the truth to the general world?  ::shrug::

What has any of this to do with Darwin's theory of evolution?

You claim there is some 'flaw' in the theory.  Elaborate.

Not all those who wander are lost.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2012, 06:41:41 AM »
The whole debate is about whether or not God created every individual organism as the Bible claims or whether all organisms come from the same ancestry, and all this statement is really saying with "false dilemma" is that some creative person may come up with some other idea about how living things needn't have been created by God.

Stupid. Just a stupid retort. Do I really have to explain why?


Perhaps if you could provide us with the passages in the Bible which actually claims that God created every individual organism it would make things much easier. I have not come across such a claim.

Offline Pfc Hall

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2012, 08:28:21 AM »
I don't know.

Offline Cally

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2012, 01:12:35 PM »
The whole debate is about whether or not God created every individual organism as the Bible claims or whether all organisms come from the same ancestry, and all this statement is really saying with "false dilemma" is that some creative person may come up with some other idea about how living things needn't have been created by God.

Stupid. Just a stupid retort. Do I really have to explain why?


Perhaps if you could provide us with the passages in the Bible which actually claims that God created every individual organism it would make things much easier. I have not come across such a claim.

You mean besides the fact that God made Adam from the ground up? Not from an ape?

1:21 God created the large sea creatures, and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind. God saw that it was good.
1:22 God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
1:23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
1:24 God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, livestock, creeping things, and animals of the earth after their kind;" and it was so.
1:25 God made the animals of the earth after their kind, and the livestock after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind. God saw that it was good.
1:26 God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Are you serious, Jimmy?
I am in need of being reminded of things that God has already taught me.

Trust me--I'm not like most people. 90% of the time, I'm straight-faced and it really isn't personal.

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: The myth of Evolution being preached in the church
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2012, 01:38:52 PM »
The whole debate is about whether or not God created every individual organism as the Bible claims or whether all organisms come from the same ancestry, and all this statement is really saying with "false dilemma" is that some creative person may come up with some other idea about how living things needn't have been created by God.

Stupid. Just a stupid retort. Do I really have to explain why?


Perhaps if you could provide us with the passages in the Bible which actually claims that God created every individual organism it would make things much easier. I have not come across such a claim.

Really?  Now this explains so much ::frown::
I am what I am because of God's grace....