GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: The Old Regulations & Rituals  (Read 1519 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2699
  • Manna: 76
  • Gender: Male
The Old Regulations & Rituals
« on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 12:07:45 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
The Old Regulations & Rituals vs.
“The New Way”

[Also, see “Mr. President” below]

    The old covenant composed the Ten Commandments. “And He declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform—that is, the Ten Commandments” [Deut. 3:13].
 
    All of the other regulations, rituals, writings, and commandments grew out of the Ten Commandments. The old covenant, with its commandments and regulations, was “nailed to the cross”—or came to an end [Eph. 2:14-15]. The new arrangement under Jesus replaced the old arrangement under Moses [[Heb. 8:7-9 & 8:13]. The old became obsolete when the new superseded it. 
 
    Everything was made new. The Old passed, the New was ushered in. All of the Ten Commandments found in the old covenant scriptures are reinstated in principle under Jesus and the New Way, with the exception of the Sabbath commandment.
 
    In fact, the believers at Galatia were falling back and relying on the old Jewish holy days for salvation. But Paul strongly reprimanded them. He asked them, “Do you wish to be enslaved all over again?”  Then he added, “You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you” [Gal. 4:9-10]
   
    If it was wrong for the early believers to honor, to celebrate, and to observe those holy days under Moses as a means of salvation, including the Sabbath day, it would be equally wrong for us. Today, under the grace era, no one day is holier than others—not Good Friday, Sour Thursday, Inferior Saturday, Easter, Christmas, Ash Monday, Evergreen Tuesday—not even the first day of the week! 
 
    Under this era, all things are new. The old has passed. We are no longer under Moses and the old covenant. We are under Jesus, who is the New Covenant. “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the new covenant” [Matt. 26:28].
 
    Those under Moses were in bondage to sin in that they could not receive deliverance. Those of us under Jesus are set free from the bondage of sin. Those under Moses were not set free from the bondage of sin until the Lamb of God made the ultimate and final sacrifice.
   
    “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that He [Jesus] has died to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant” [Heb. 9:15].
_____
 
     MR. PRESIDENT— Handle your problems with NATO diplomatically, not arbitrarily. The pros and cons of disputed points can best find solutions by addressing them tactfully or skillfully, not inflexibly. Resistance is the result of communicating arbitrarily. Positive results often follow sensible diplomacy.—Buff.
   
    EXCERPT #8 FROM MY BOOK— Front cover of “The Son of Perdition”: “Who is this ‘son of hell’ who claims to be God and says he occupies God’s place? What are his credentials? Let’s see if we can find him. Come inside.” For one or more free copies of this book, postage included, send me your Postal Address.—Buff.
   
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 13:25:54 by Reformer »

Christian Forums and Message Board

The Old Regulations & Rituals
« on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 12:07:45 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)cheives (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 13:12:46 »
Just testing: not even any sense of humor! I feel the danger.
« Last Edit: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 14:10:17 by Kenneth Sublett »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 13:12:46 »

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2699
  • Manna: 76
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 13:23:09 »

   Kenneth, these photos and your remarks have zero nothing to do with the contents of my column. Please remove them—now!

Buff

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 13:23:09 »

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2699
  • Manna: 76
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 18:55:51 »

Kenneth:

   I appreciate your removing those non-applicable photos. Yes, indeed, I have a sense of humor. And I enjoy clean jesting.

   However, on this forum I think it more appropriate that we respond to others by posting material that is sensibly applicable. Otherwise, it turns out to be clutter and hard to decipher. I think you understand where I'm coming from.

Again, thanks,

Buff

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 18:55:51 »

Offline Grace-aholic

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 30
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 21:56:58 »
(([/size][size=78%]All of the Ten Commandments found in the old covenant scriptures are reinstated [/size][size=78%]in principle[/size][size=78%] under Jesus and the [/size][size=78%]New Way[/size][size=78%], ))[/size]
The ten commandments are taken away in Christ. [/font]
[/size]For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
[/size]Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [/size] Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 21:56:58 »



Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2699
  • Manna: 76
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #5 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 22:29:22 »

Grace-aholic:

   Thank you for your comments. Actually, all of the Ten, except the Sabbath, are universal regardless of the era in which they were issued.

Buff

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #5 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 22:29:22 »

Offline Grace-aholic

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 30
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #6 on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 23:04:02 »
Now we are to walk in the Spirit and love our neighbour as our self, which is a whole new way of operating.........not just following a few rules.


Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.



   

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7612
  • Manna: 236
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #7 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 05:20:31 »
Grace-aholic:

   Thank you for your comments. Actually, all of the Ten, except the Sabbath, are universal regardless of the era in which they were issued.

Buff
I think remembering the sabbath, where sabbath doesn't mean seventh or Saturday but rather means rest, would be a good thing as well.  One day a week reserved for rest from work is good.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5610
  • Manna: 317
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 06:11:15 »
Those under Moses were in bondage to sin in that they could not receive deliverance. Those of us under Jesus are set free from the bondage of sin. Those under Moses were not set free from the bondage of sin until the Lamb of God made the ultimate and final sacrifice.
On this point you greatly err.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:1-8~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."
Abrahan and David and millions of others in the OT, understood the blessedness of the man whom God did not impute sin too, and who enjoyed free justification through the system of faith under which they lived JUST as we do under the NT, just with greater light and understanding.

Romans four is one of the most important chapters in Romans if not in the whole NT along with Galatians 2:16-5:4. Abraham's faith was the EVIDENCE that he possess the righteousness of God just as we under the NT.  No difference whatsoever. 

"his faith is counted for righteousness"~so misunderstood by most! Would you like to consider this more?
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 06:14:26 by RB »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 06:11:15 »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7612
  • Manna: 236
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 06:59:06 »
Abraham's faith was the EVIDENCE that he possess the righteousness of God just as we under the NT.  No difference whatsoever. 
Again you have that reversed.  It was not by God's righteousness that Abraham had faith.  Abraham's faith was not the evidence that he possessed God's righteousness; rather it is by faith that he possessed God's righteousness. That is confirmed by what you posted: "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" Rom 4:3).   First faith, then righteousness.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5610
  • Manna: 317
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #10 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 07:05:54 »
Again you have that reversed.  It was not by God's righteousness that Abraham had faith.  Abraham's faith was not the evidence that he possessed God's righteousness; rather it is by faith that he possessed God's righteousness. That is confirmed by what you posted: "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" Rom 4:3).   First faith, then righteousness.
Think so, are you sure of it? Let us wait on Reformer and then let us three discuss this all important subject. In meantime, let me ask you this one question~WHEN in the scriptures is it FIRST said that Abraham believed God and it was counted unto for righteousness? When he first left his home land, OR, a few years LATER? Be careful.

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7612
  • Manna: 236
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 07:25:13 »
Think so, are you sure of it? Let us wait on Reformer and then let us three discuss this all important subject. In meantime, let me ask you this one question~WHEN in the scriptures is it FIRST said that Abraham believed God and it was counted unto for righteousness? When he first left his home land, OR, a few years LATER? Be careful.
It doesn't matter when it was first said.  Romans 4:3 does not contradict anything in the OT and there the statement is absolutely clear: "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"  It, Abraham's faith, was counted unto him for righteousness.  So yes, I am sure of it.

This is a direct quote by Paul to Genesis 15:6  -- "And he believed the LORD, and He [God] counted it [Abraham's faith] to him as righteousness."  

Offline Kenneth Sublett

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)cheives (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #12 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 09:00:42 »
Buff's column: 
Quote
MR. PRESIDENT— Handle your problems with NATO diplomatically, not arbitrarily. The pros and cons of disputed points can best find solutions by addressing them tactfully or skillfully, not inflexibly. Resistance is the result of communicating arbitrarily. Positive results often follow sensible diplomacy.—Buff.

I posted photos of Trump and Rocket man to prove that Trump doesn't need advice.

Buff Responded diplomatically!


Quote
Kenneth, these photos and your remarks have zero nothing to do with the contents of my column. Please remove them—now!

Gen. 26:2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said,
         GO not down into Egypt; DWELL in the land which I shall tell thee of:
Gen. 26:3 SOJOURN in this land,
        and I will be with thee,
        and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed,
        I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven,
        and will give unto thy seed all these countries;
        and in thy SEED shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen. 26:5 BECAUSE that Abraham
        obeyed my voice,
        and kept my charge,
        my commandments,
        my statutes,
        and my laws.

Gal. 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the CURSE of the law,
        being made a curse for us: for it is written,
        Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal. 3:14 THAT the blessing of Abraham might come on the GENTILES through Jesus Christ;
        that we might receive the promise of the Spirit [The promise made by God]
        through faith.
Gal. 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men;
        Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed,
        no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

The only spiritual covenant was made with Abraham and Excluded the Levites abandoned to Babylonianism (Gen 49)

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
       He saith not, And to seeds, as of MANY;
       but as of ONE, And to thy SEED, which is Christ.
Gal. 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant,
       that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law,
       which was four hundred and thirty years after, CANNOT disannul,
       that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal. 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise:
       but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

BECAUSE ABRAHAM OBEYED ANYTHING GOD COMMANDED HIM TO DO.

The Land and the House or Temple was spiritual and not OF those bound to keep ALL of the CARNAL ORDINANCES

If God abandoned the Civil-Military-Clergy to worship the starry host there is nothing under the curse of the Monarchy which as any value for the Church which is built upon or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles..

JESUS defined Holy Scripture as the PROPHETS and other Scripture CONCERNING ME.
« Last Edit: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 09:07:55 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12226
  • Manna: 350
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 14:06:12 »
All of the Ten Commandments found in the old covenant scriptures are reinstated in principle under Jesus and the New Way, with the exception of the Sabbath commandment.
The Sabbath is also there in the New Testament.  It's just that the way the Jews were practicing it was so contrary to the original intent that it was unrecognizable.

Kind of like how certain churches today want to make it into a day of labors and services, when it is intended as a day of rest.  ::lookaround::

Offline Kenneth Sublett

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)cheives (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #14 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 14:36:05 »
SO TRUE: Sabbath demanded that people be given REST 1 out 7 days especially when they worked 6 days. 
Sabbath or rest specifically quarantine the people to their isolated villages so that they could not walk far enough to attend any of the seventh day rituals.

The Greek word for REST or JUST STOP IT is PAUO.  Liberals want to KEEP all of the "observations" to which the kingdom does not come AND add a few more ACTS and STAFF to keep you busy all week.  I always found Sunday the hardest day of the week.  The LADED BURDEN Jesus died to remove is "Spiritual anxiety created by religious ceremonialism." The "Shock and Awe" caused when WE OFFER worship opportunities IS LAW BASED.

Sorry about the picture I can supply links:

Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden,
        and I will give you REST.
Matt. 11:29 Take my yoke upon you,
        and LEARN of ME; [I know of no one who understands that]
        for I am MEEK and LOWLY in heart: [I don't know anyone like that]
        and ye shall find REST unto your SOULS. [not available]
Matt. 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my BURDEN is light.


Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2699
  • Manna: 76
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #15 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 23:01:31 »
Wycliffes-Shillelagh:

   You noted, “The Sabbath is also there in the New Testament.  It’s just that the way the Jews were practicing it was so contrary to the original intent that it was unrecognizable.”

   Jesus lived and died while the Jewish Sabbath was still intact. The Old Law of Moses, with it’s Jewish Sabbath, did not end until the “New Way” was ushered in—namely, the grace community.

   So in that vein, the Jewish Sabbath is “in the New Testament,” but not an integral part of the new covenant! The Sabbath was issued to the Jewish people only as a holy day. It was never repeated as a holy day for, or issued to, believers in the new era.

   In fact, as I noted in Galatians the other day, Paul “raked the believers over the coals” for placing their salvation and justification in honoring certain Jewish holy days, which, of course, included the Jewish Sabbath.

   There will be another sabbath rest for the believer when this life is over. It will in heaven.

Buff

 

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2699
  • Manna: 76
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #16 on: Mon Jul 16, 2018 - 23:12:10 »

Kenneth Sublett:

   I'd like to suggest once again for the sake of clarity that you try harder to curtail your wanderings off into "Never-Never Land."

Buff

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5610
  • Manna: 317
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #17 on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 04:14:06 »
Kenneth Sublett:

   I'd like to suggest once again for the sake of clarity that you try harder to curtail your wanderings off into "Never-Never Land."

Buff
Good luck with that request~he has spiritual dementia. I have learned to just overlook him and somewhat pity him~he reminds me of a chicken egg that was hatched under a sitting duck with her eggs and when it was time to go to the water, the poor chicken had no idea what to do next when it saw mommy in the water with her brothers and sisters.

He has a brilliant mind it seems, but that does not translate over into the spiritual world of teaching biblical truths and he's a living proof of that.     
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 04:27:12 by RB »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5610
  • Manna: 317
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #18 on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 05:50:45 »
Again you have that reversed.  It was not by God's righteousness that Abraham had faith.  Abraham's faith was not the evidence that he possessed God's righteousness; rather it is by faith that he possessed God's righteousness. That is confirmed by what you posted: "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" Rom 4:3).   First faith, then righteousness.
Let consider some scriptures in Galatians 3, shall we?
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:6~"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23). Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship, no different as far as faith goes.

The adverbial phrase, even as, means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen. Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it in the whole bible OT and NT.

The Galatians stood by faith (2:16; 3:1-5); All of the just live under the system of faith both OT and NT. God approved Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6). JUST AS we are.  This is precious and sweet, if we can grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles! The Judaizer false teachers could only offer some connection to Moses by circumcision.

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of work mongers. All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matthew 3:9; John 8:33; Exodus 3:6). And so do we~ For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith.

For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Romans 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before the law was given. (Rom 4:13-16; Gal 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Genesis 15:6). We ask...Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be legally justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and even Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification ~ faith is the human condition for righteousness which your quote abov proves my point. Calvinists hold instrumental justification~faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification. The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness that he possess, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant ~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted.

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire? (Genesis 14:18-20)? Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Genesis 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalm 106:30-31) the exact same wording is used.
Quote from: David
Psalm 106:30,31~"Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.

Question for you: "Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?"

Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage? Abel, Enoch, and Noah were ignored, because they were not the “father” of Israel, though they proved their righteous character by their faith long before Abraham (Hebrews 11:4-7). God wrote Genesis 15:6 for the future use of Paul in showing the important role of faith and the system which we come to KNOW our free justification by grace through Christ's righteousness, not our.  Also, God wrote Genesis 15:6 to show the Jews trusting the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all the importance of FAITH.
Quote
Galatians 3:7~Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
What glorious comfort! Gentiles show they are Abraham’s children in God’s sight by faith! True identification with Abraham, the great friend of God, is by faith in Jesus Christ. Instead of being Jewish proselytes of Moses’ Law, faith takes Gentiles back to Abraham! God’s promises to Abraham were made 430 years before He gave Moses the Law (Galatians 3:17)!

Delight in the plural children here, though the promises were to a singular seed (Galatians 3:16), for Paul introduced the glorious fact that N.T. saints are the promised descendants!

We ask: Does an act of believing or a life of believing make you Abraham’s child or only prove it? It only proves we are a child, just as loving enemies proves us His children (Matthew 5:48).

No man would believe on Christ without life first (John 3:3; 5:24,40; 6:44,65; 8:43,47; 10:26; Ist Corinthians 1:18,24; 2:14; 2nd Corinthians 2:14-17; 4:1-4; 2nd Thessolainas  2:9-14; Ephesians 2:1; Ist John 5:1 )!

James taught very clearly that faith by itself proves nothing of salvation (James 2:14-26). Peter taught very clearly that faith by itself proves nothing of salvation (2nd Peter 1:5-10). What faith is under consideration here? Just any old faith? In Moses? Or in Christ alone? This must be faith used in a specific way to describe those in the religion of Jesus Christ. For this is the way Paul will describe the children of Abraham momentarily (3:26-29). Paul had not been using “faith” for bare believing or decisional salvation, but rather as a metonym against the confidence of some in justification by the works of the Law (3:2). The contrast is between a doctrine of salvation by the finished work of Christ evidenced by faith versus a doctrine of salvation by earning acceptance with God by Moses’ Law. The faith that proves justification and acceptance with God is faith that believes God justifies the ungodly through Jesus Christ without human cooperation at all (Romans 4:5; John 1:13, etc. ).

Paul is not describing the children of Abraham as those who made a mere decision for Jesus. The issue is plainly stated in many places, including 3:11, that the just shall live by faith. The Lord Jesus Christ condemned Jews that believed on Him momentarily. Faith is not decisional regeneration, but a strong commitment to believe and obey the gospel of Christ, bearing fruit of good works (Ist Thessalonians  1:2-4; James 2:14-26; 2nd Peter 1:5-11). The heresy of decisional regeneration is damnable. Paul means the life of faith, not an emotional moment in some “evangelistic” crusade with an organ creating your response.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:8~"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."
Later....Also, we need to look at Abraham's timeline to see clearly how that his faith was counted=imputhed=reckon= for righteousness.

« Last Edit: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 05:56:09 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7612
  • Manna: 236
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #19 on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 07:59:46 »
This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23). Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship, no different as far as faith goes.
Well it certainly is an often quoted OT reference.  And still you refuse to accept the simple truth that it states.

The statement quoted in Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23 all make the same simple statement.

Gen 15:6  And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Rom 4:9  Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

Rom 4:22  That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."

Gal 3:6  just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?

Jas 2:23  and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.


There is not one word in any of those about worship. I have no idea why you stuck that in there. The simple truth in each and every one of those verses is that Abraham believed, i.e., had faith, in God and God counted/reckoned/imputed that belief/faith as righteousness.

The whole rest of your post then is a bunch of mish-mash trying to avoid the obvious.  You asked,
Quote from: RB
What did Abraham believe?
and then some long dissertation about this and that.  Why not just read what the Bible says? It is not what Abraham believed, but who Abraham believed.  It says Abraham believed God. Abraham had faith in God.  And that, Abraham's faith was counted/reckoned/imputed to him as righteousness.

Quote from: RB
Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and even Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification ~ faith is the human condition for righteousness which your quote abov proves my point. Calvinists hold instrumental justification~faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification. The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness that he possess, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.
I really don't know what all of this is about, but it does demonstrate one critical thing.  Apparently neither Calvinists nor you understand justification. 

We can spend some time on this if you would like but, quite simply, justification is the imputation of righteousness. It is not, as you claim, evidence for righteousness.  It is the basis by which God makes the declaration of righteousness. It is a legal act by God.  To justify means not to make righteous, but to declare righteous.  It is a legal act.  It is a judgement call, it is a judgment made. It is conditioned upon the belief, i.e., the faith, of the person.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12226
  • Manna: 350
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 14:47:30 »
Wycliffes-Shillelagh:

   You noted, “The Sabbath is also there in the New Testament.  It’s just that the way the Jews were practicing it was so contrary to the original intent that it was unrecognizable.”

   Jesus lived and died while the Jewish Sabbath was still intact. The Old Law of Moses, with it’s Jewish Sabbath, did not end until the “New Way” was ushered in—namely, the grace community.

   So in that vein, the Jewish Sabbath is “in the New Testament,” but not an integral part of the new covenant! The Sabbath was issued to the Jewish people only as a holy day. It was never repeated as a holy day for, or issued to, believers in the new era.

   In fact, as I noted in Galatians the other day, Paul “raked the believers over the coals” for placing their salvation and justification in honoring certain Jewish holy days, which, of course, included the Jewish Sabbath.

   There will be another sabbath rest for the believer when this life is over. It will in heaven.

Buff
I would politely suggest that you have misunderstood the original Sabbath.  Or at least, followed an erroneous tradition that was handed down to Christianity by the Jews, who corrupted the gift of the Sabbath with legalism.

From the beginning, the Sabbath was not instituted for assembly, or sacrifice, or for worship.  It was given to the working man for rest.  Jesus said, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath."

I would argue that the New Testament doubles down on the Sabbath, instituting a second day of rest.  Thank God for the weekend!

Offline Reformer

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2699
  • Manna: 76
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #21 on: Wed Jul 18, 2018 - 21:22:19 »

Wycliffes_Shillelagh:

   True, the original Jeweih Sabbath was instituted for rest, yet it was meant and was a holy day to the Lord.

    As I noted earlier, the believers at Galatia were relying on such holy days for salvation and justification. The apostle was concerned that he may have labored over them in vain [4:10].

    “You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.”

Buff

Offline Elioenai

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 47
  • Manna: 1
  • Gender: Male
  • Who has ceased to eat Manna?
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #22 on: Thu Jul 19, 2018 - 07:42:16 »
Violating the Sabbath means that you have violated all Ten Commandments and, thereby, the Covenant is annulled. Elohim wants Lawful and not Lawless people. Beware of the teachers of lawlessness.


Isaiah 8:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.





Psalm 119:18 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

18 Uncover mine eyes, and I behold wonders out of Thy law.

« Last Edit: Fri Aug 10, 2018 - 06:30:01 by Alan »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)cheives (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #23 on: Thu Jul 19, 2018 - 12:41:12 »
The meaning of Creation includes the fact that GOD WORKED for 6 DAYS  to create mankind and everything needed for a happy life
The SABBATH means REST from any religious observation claiming to assist God.  The Hebrews PROFANED the Sabbath at Mount sin with their old Egyptian worship under the visible image of GOLDEN CALVES. PLAY on the REST day included singing, playing instruments, dancing.  God abandoned them to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST and sentenced them to return to Assyria for total BABYLON for almost total destruction.

The Sabbath as SEVENTH meant to WORK for six days and rest on the seventh not connected to the starry host or ASTROLOGY. During the festivals for male Jews the HOLY CONVOCATION was held on the FIRST DAY.

Ex. 12:16 And in the FIRST day there shall be an holy convocation,
       and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you;
       no manner of work shall be done in them,
       save that which every man must eat, that ONLY may be done of you.

EXCLUSIVE: G4399.mla}kah, mel-aw-kaw´; from the same as 4397; properly, deputyship, i.e. ministry; generally, employment (never servile) or work (abstractly or concretely); also property (as the result of labor):—business, + cattle, + industrious, occupation, (+ -pied), + officer, thing (made), use, (manner of) work((-man), -manship).
       G4397.  mal}ak, mal-awk´; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

SYNAGOGUE was held on the FIRST and SEVENTH days.

INCLUSIVE:



Not then or ever did Jews or Gentiles hold HOLY CONVOCATIONS.

WHAT THE JEWS DID to pollute the REST day and never made it HOLY TO THE LORD.

4Q166 (4QpHosa) Dead Sea Scrolls, (Plus, pg. 276-7 Vermes)

"I will put an end to her rejoicing, her feasts, her new moons, her Sabbaths, and all her festivals (Hosea ii,11).

"Interpreted, this means that they have rejected the ruling of the law,
and have followed the festivals of the nations.
But their rejoicing shall come to an end and shall be changed into mourning.
I will ravage her vines and her fig trees, of which she said, 'They are my wage which my lovers have given me'. I wall make them a thicked and the will beasts shall eat them...ii, 12

But they, like Adam, have broken the Covenant (vi, 7)
Its interpretation... they have forsaken God and walked according to the decrees of the Gentiles..
..

KEEPING THE SABBATH  means that you don't ADD anything of your own WORK which PROHIBITS long walks or "Sending out ministers of God.

The Christian REST or the Greek PAUO is "another day."

There is a long list of things which PROFANE the SABBATH under the Law.  The Greek PAU0 is used in the literature meaning to STOP whatever you are doing as a "Laded burden by burden Laders."

2Th. 1:7 And to you who are troubled REST with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

The SERVICE of the Priests and Levites who PERFORMED for everyone means Hard Bondage.

KEEP (guard) the SABBATH HOLY which means PURE.  After Constantine Christians were given A day of REST when they had none. They tried to prevent Christians from attending the always-polluted seventh days including Mithra.  They NEVER STOPPED assemblying on the FIRST day for the Lord's Supper and EDUCATION.


Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5610
  • Manna: 317
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jul 20, 2018 - 04:50:30 »
There is not one word in any of those about worship. I have no idea why you stuck that in there.
The main reason because of what Bluff had said:
Quote from: Reformer on Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 12:07:45
Those under Moses were in bondage to sin in that they could not receive deliverance. Those of us under Jesus are set free from the bondage of sin. Those under Moses were not set free from the bondage of sin until the Lamb of God made the ultimate and final sacrifice.
If one is not set FREE from the bondage of sin, then it is impossible for that person to worship God~yet of Abraham the scriptures said that he was a friend of God, and Paul added that those under the NT who live by the system of faith are children of Abraham living by the very system that Abraham live under! So, you can not separate faith from worship, or true worship from faith.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #19 on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 07:59:46
The simple truth in each and every one of those verses is that Abraham believed, i.e., had faith, in God and God counted/reckoned/imputed that belief/faith as righteousness.
Truth is "not" as simple as you think it is and desire others to believe the same. Abraham and the system of FAITH that all of the just lived under is the VERY SAME SYSTEM that all of God's elect have and will ever live under and are known to be children of God through faith. It certainly is not by either circumcision as the Jews wanted all to believe and NEITHER is it by water baptism, but by the system of faith....PERIOD!. You folks will not even allow OT saints to be considered born again, because your whole system is in error and is a lie. From Abel to John the Baptist form John the Baptist to the last saints born again, everyone are born again the EXACT SAME MANNER by the Spirit of God regenerating them~every child of God from Abel to John the Baptist, from John the Baptist to the last saints born again are known to such by the system of FAITH, period! Not what church they belong to, not IF they have been immersed in water baptism, not if they speak in tongues, not if they keep the Sabbath holy, not if they do not eat this or that but by the system of FAITH...period..

Circumcision under the OT had its place, and water baptism under the NT has its ordained place, but NETHER proves one's faith and would be the means of forgiveness of sins under either covenant.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #19 on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 07:59:46
Why not just read what the Bible says? It is not what Abraham believed, but who Abraham believed.  It says Abraham believed God. Abraham had faith in God.  And that, Abraham's faith was counted/reckoned/imputed to him as righteousness.
Let us do that and consider more of Abraham~he's a very important person of interest from the scriptures BOTH OT and NT.

"ABRAHAM"~
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:11~"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:"
Abraham had the righteousness of God impueth to his account even before Christ had died on the cross! He knew this through FAITH and had before he was circumcised! EVEN SO, we under the NT had the righteousness of God imputeth to our account by grace BEFORE we were baptized into the relligion of Jesus Christ.

A key time in Abraham's life is found in Genesis 15:
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 15:5~"And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be."
And then we read:
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 15:6~"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
We know by reading the NT that this scripture was Paul's favorite scripture to teach the doctrine of justification. You gave your understanding, now let us give Paul's in the sense in which he used it.

It is a legal term to describe a person being declared righteous. A simple definition is: "Just as if I’d never sinned". Justification is the means of how one escapes condemnation and the lake of fire, which is the second death. It is when God the Judge of all declares a person righteous and without sin by Jesus Christ’s life and death and resurrection. Again. this is Paul's main scriptures for justification~
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 15:6~"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
So Paul begins and said:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:2-5~"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
.....
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:9~"Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness."
...
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:11~"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:"
.....
Quote from: Paul continues
Romans 4:23,24~"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;"
It is clear that God declares you righteous when you believe on Him about Jesus. Again, This was Paul’s favorite scripture for justification.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 3:6~"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
What do these four words means? Count = Reckon = Impute = Account.  All four words mean exactly the same thing. • To consider or regard a thing as being so and so. • God regarded his faith as proof he was righteous. • The words do not mean to make a thing so and so. • They do not mean to infuse anything into a thing.

Let us make this very clear: James chapter two does not count Genesis 15:6 until Genesis 22:15-16.
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 15:6~"And he believed in the LORD; and hecounted it to him for righteousness."
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 22:15,16~"And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:"
Let us get to our point.

When was Abraham SAVED? Did Abraham get justified when he looked at the stars, believed, and God counted him righteous? Or did Abraham get justified when he offered Isaac on an altar as a sacrifice?
Quote from: James
James 2:21-24"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Or did Abraham get justified "by" Jesus living a perfect life and dying for Abraham?

Coming back and to finish this all-important question.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 20, 2018 - 04:59:34 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7612
  • Manna: 236
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jul 20, 2018 - 08:41:25 »
The main reason because of what Bluff had said: If one is not set FREE from the bondage of sin, then it is impossible for that person to worship God~yet of Abraham the scriptures said that he was a friend of God, and Paul added that those under the NT who live by the system of faith are children of Abraham living by the very system that Abraham live under!
You and Buff are both wrong.  That is precisely what Paul is saying when he says that  Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness. To be justified is to be set free from the debt, the bondage, of sin.  That is what it means that Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness.  The fact that Jesus' perfect sacrifice would come centuries later is all rather beside the point since the effect was retroactive to the very beginning of mankind.  Abraham knew nothing about Jesus' death on the cross.
Quote from: RB
So, you can not separate faith from worship, or true worship from faith.
Of course you can separate them.  They do not mean the same thing at all. Now it should be apparent that one who truly believes God and believes in God would necessarily worship God.  But still they are not the same. 
Quote from: RB
Truth is "not" as simple as you think it is and desire others to believe the same. Abraham and the system of FAITH that all of the just lived under is the VERY SAME SYSTEM that all of God's elect have and will ever live under and are known to be children of God through faith.
In all instances, before the Old Covenant, during the Old Covenant and during the New Covenant it has always been faith that is key, but still the systems were decidedly different.  And thinking they were the same system literally destroys the message of the Scriptures.
Quote from: RB
It certainly is not by either circumcision as the Jews wanted all to believe and NEITHER is it by water baptism, but by the system of faith....PERIOD!.
Yes by the system(s) of faith.  The systems were were not the same at all but were very very different.
Quote from: RB
You folks will not even allow OT saints to be considered born again, because your whole system is in error and is a lie. From Abel to John the Baptist form John the Baptist to the last saints born again, everyone are born again the EXACT SAME MANNER by the Spirit of God regenerating them~every child of God from Abel to John the Baptist, from John the Baptist to the last saints born again are known to such by the system of FAITH, period!
And that is where you get it so wrong.  And the reason you do is because you do not know and understand what born again means.  You have some cockamamie, screwed up Calvin-invented concept of born again.  But clearly you need that cockamamie, screwed up concept of born again to get you around that cockamamie, screwed up concept of total depravity.  Regeneration [born again] is unique to the New Covenant.
Quote
Circumcision under the OT had its place, and water baptism under the NT has its ordained place, but NETHER proves one's faith and would be the means of forgiveness of sins under either covenant.
Quite clearly circumcision was not about faith and was not a means to obtain forgiveness of sins.  The forgiveness of sin, i.e. atonement, under the Old Covenant was obtained through animal sacrifice.  Under the New Covenant the forgiveness of sins is obtained through water baptism.  You can argue that water baptism is not absolutely necessary to obtain forgiveness of sin, but you cannot legitimately argue against water baptism for the forgiveness of sin.  To do so is to deny the explicit and implicit biblical description of the purpose of water baptism.

As to your discussion of Abraham.  Indeed he was justified.  That is what is what is meant by his faith being counted as righteousness.  That is what justified means.  To be reckoned as righteous before God is to be justified.  To be reckoned as righteous is a divine declaration.  Justification is a judgment call by God Himself.  And that is totally different from regeneration.  Regeneration was never an issue before or under the Old Covenant.  It is strictly a New Covenant implementation.  That is, in part at least, what John's baptism was all about, that is, it was about preparing the way for Jesus Christ and the New Covenant.  It was an introduction to what was coming.

You devoted a good bit to the discussion of Abraham.  But not once could you point to anything that said that Abraham was or ever had been regenerated, i.e., that he was or ever had been born again.

You said,
Quote from: RB
It is a legal term to describe a person being declared righteous. A simple definition is: "Just as if I’d never sinned". Justification is the means of how one escapes condemnation and the lake of fire, which is the second death. It is when God the Judge of all declares a person righteous and without sin by Jesus Christ’s life and death and resurrection. Again. this is Paul's main scriptures for justification~
You are close, but still a bit off.  We are never declared without sin.  We are declared free of the guilt and penalty of sin, but there is never anything about having not sinned.  Paul and all the other authors of the NT go to great lengths to guard against just such an idea.  It is the sin that requires the judgment call by God.  Clearly if one had not sinned, there would be no need for God to declare him not guilty of having sinned.

You quoted Roman 4:23-24 and then said.
Quote from: RB
It is clear that God declares you righteous when you believe on Him about Jesus. Again, This was Paul’s favorite scripture for justification.
Here one more time you changed the words.  It is not when, but if.  According to your beloved KJV "for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him".

Offline Grace-aholic

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 30
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #26 on: Fri Jul 20, 2018 - 14:08:37 »
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[/size] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[/size] Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5610
  • Manna: 317
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #27 on: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 04:43:40 »
Quote from: RB Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 04:50:30
Or did Abraham get justified "by" Jesus living a perfect life and dying for Abraham?
4WD I WILL answer your post after I have finished this all-important question, or it will not be answered as you should well know.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 3:24~"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
Again, Paul said:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 4:25~"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."
Again:
Quote
Romans 5:9 and 19~"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Again:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 6:23~For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Now, we ask again..."When" was Abraham saved from his sins legally? Moses and Paul makes it seem to be when he believed, at least the sound bites are there.... we AGREE.
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 15:6~"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
We know by comparing scriptures with scriptures that was only when God counted his faith as evidence of his justification.

James 2:21-24 makes it sound like it was by works in Genesis 22:15-18. But we KNOW by comparing scriptures that was only when God counted his works as evidence of his justification.

When was Abraham justified? ALL the following would be scriptural: Elected in Christ; When Jesus Died; When Jesus Rose; When he believed; When he obeyed; and will be at the Judgment at the last day. All senses are biblical! But ONLY one of these legally justifies the sinner, and the sinner has NO PART IN his sins being legally forgiven~it is all of God's GRACE without works.

It is easily proven that Abraham was a saved man full of faith long before Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22! Both events gave us examples of evidence for justification! Consider carefully: At 72 …Abram obeyed God by faith and left Ur of the Chaldeans for Canaan.(Genesis 11) At 75 …God promised Abram all the blessings that He would repeat later. (Genesis 12) At 75 …Abram built altars and worshipped God at Bethel and elsewhere.(Genesis 12) At 77 …Abram returned rich from Egypt to worship God again at Bethel. (Genesis 12) At 78 …Abram gave the best land to Lot, but God promised him a seed. (Genesis 13) At 78 … Abram built another altar and worshipped God at Mamre. (Genesis 13) At 80 …Abram took 318 servants to rescue Lot from four evil kings. (Genesis 14) At 80 …Melchisedek, the priest of Jehovah, blessed Abram. (Genesis 14) At 80 …Abram paid tithes to Melchisedek the priest of Jehovah. (Genesis 14) At 82 … God declared He was Abram’s shield and exceeding reward. (Genesis 15) At 82 …Abram believed God’s promise of the huge spiritual family he would have. (Genesis 15)
Quote from: Moses
Genesis 15:6~"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
At 85 …Abram, weak in faith, listened to Sarah and took Hagar as wife. (Genesis 16) At 99 …God changed his name to Abraham and required circumcision.(Genesis 17) At 99 …Weak in faith again, Abraham laughed at God for son by Sarah. (Genesis 17) At 100 …Sarah gave birth to Isaac, the promised son, right on schedule! (Genesis 21) At 116 …Abraham obeyed God
and tried to offer Isaac on an altar. (Genesis 22)
Quote from: James
James 2:21,22~"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"
At 137 …Sarah died and he took pains to bury her for the resurrection.(Genesis 23)At 140 …He married young Keturah, and Isaac married Rebekah. (Genesis 24 & 25) At 160 …He had grandsons, the twins Jacob and Esau, by Rebekah. (Genesis 25) At 175 …Abraham died and went to heaven. Isaac was 75, Jacob 15. (Genesis 25)  So, we ask again: "When" was Abraham saved? Certainly not legally in Genesis 15:6 we all should see that truth by following Abraham's timeline of his faith.

Later.....
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 05:19:19 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7612
  • Manna: 236
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #28 on: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 08:08:05 »
RB,
Here and elsewhere you make a very big deal out of the phrases "legally justified" and "legally saved".  Both are a bit absurd since neither phrase are to be found anywhere in Scripture.  You seem to be suggesting that there is some way other than legally that one can be justified.  If you really understood the meaning of justify and justification, you would know that is simply wrong. Ironically, for you, the timeline you presented for Abraham suggests that you do not understand at all what justification is or what it means to be justified.  Justification is, by definition scripturally and secularly, a legal function.

Justification means something God does. Indeed, it means a very specific thing God does. It is true that God also regenerates, sanctifies, and glorifies; but these are not the same as justification. “Justification has a distinct meaning.” What is this meaning? A brief look at some Greek terminology will give a proper meaning. The noun usually translated “justification” is dikaiosis; the verb “to justify” is dikaioo. These terms are from the same word family as “righteous” (dikaios) and “righteousness” (dikaiosyne), which suggests that justification has something to do with righteousness. We therefore need to identify the proper connection between them.

In Christian theology since the Reformation there have been two main competing views of the meaning of justification as it relates to righteousness. One is that justification means that God declares us righteous by imputing righteousness to us; the other is that justification means that God makes us righteous by imparting righteousness to us.  Again, in your presentation of the timeline for Abraham's life you are presenting the view of justification as imparting righteousness. In that view “imparted righteousness” is the personal obedience and good works God enables us to perform by the power of his grace working in us; it is the right moral character we are enabled to attain by this power. That view of justification of God’s act is thus his ongoing process of making us more and more righteous or holy. That is wrong.  That process is actually sanctification, not justification; “To justify” means not to make righteous, but to declare righteous, to count or accept as righteous. The state of justification is not an ever-increasing holiness of character, but a complete right legal standing before the law of God and a freedom from the law’s penalty.

That justification means to declare righteous rather than to make righteous is seen in the use of the verb dikaioo in Luke 7:29, which says literally that the people who heard Jesus’ teaching about John the Baptist “justified God” (KJV). Obviously this cannot mean that the people made God righteous; they were simply declaring or acknowledging him to be righteous. Thus the NASB translates this as “They acknowledged God’s justice,” and the NIV says they “acknowledged that God’s way was right.” Likewise when God justifies us he is not making us righteous but is declaring us so. That this is the proper meaning of the concept is also seen in the fact that in Scripture justification is basically a legal (judicial, forensic) concept. That is, in the Bible it is a judge’s verdict or finding after he has considered the evidence and found a person to be innocent. “To justify” is always the opposite of “to condemn.” For example, Deut 25:1 says that when men go to court, “the judges decide their case, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked.”

Likewise Prov 17:15 condemns a corrupt judge “who justifies the wicked” and “condemns the righteous” (see Isa 5:23). This same contrast between justification and condemnation is seen in God’s own judicial verdict: “Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns?” (Rom 8:33-34; see Matt 12:37). Obviously when a judge condemns someone he does not thereby make that person guilty; he only discovers and declares him to be so. Likewise when a judge justifies someone he does not thereby make that person innocent or righteous; he simply declares him to be so.

There is much more that could be said about justification, but I hope this is enough to show that your view of justification as you presented in that timeline of Abraham's life that you are much confused about the meaning of justification and what it means that the saved have been justified.  That is apparent by your use of the term "legally justified" as if there is any other way to be justified.  One is not "legally justified" or "illegally justified" as you have suggested elsewhere. The opposite of justified is condemned.

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5610
  • Manna: 317
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #29 on: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 14:20:01 »
In closing, we have proven that Abraham had done many things by faith before Genesis 15:6 and God accepted him. Abraham was a saved man full of faith and works before Genesis 15:6 or Genesis 22:15-18. These two events gave us examples of evidence for justification~NOT conditions to be performed!

Questions for our friends: "Did anything change in Abraham or change in heaven when he believed in Gen 15:6? No! "Did anything change in Abraham or change in heaven when he offered Isaac in Genesis 22? No!

The two events gave us examples of evidence for justification!

Are there other examples like this that are only evidence for justification?
Quote from: David
Psalm 106:30-31~Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.
There's more:
Quote from: James
James 2:25~"Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"
And....
Quote
Hebrews 11:4~By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh
He speaks yet 4WD will not hear him!

How are you justified? The very same way as Abraham! When Are We Justified? Elected in Christ; When Jesus Died; When Jesus Rose; When we believe; When we obey and at the Judgment.

Faith and works justify us as the evidence that Jesus justified us! God has declared in the Bible that faith in Christ and works prove it! Neither are the conditons to be legally justified, but the biblical evidence of those that are.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 5:6~"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
Again....
Quote from: Paul
Philippians 2:12-13~"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Again...
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 1:5,6,7,10, and 11~"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
Last one...
Quote from: John
Ist John 3:7~"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."


 
« Last Edit: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 16:30:45 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7612
  • Manna: 236
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #30 on: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 15:40:55 »
Not a single verse or passage of Scripture you posted is in contradiction to anything that I said about justification.  Some do show that you apparently do not understand justification.  You are still hung up on the notion of legally justified, whatever limitation you think "legally" might infer.  As I showed you to be justified is a legal function.
How are you justified? The very same way as Abraham!
Yes, we are justified by God in His declaring us righteous.  It is imputation, not impartation.
Quote from: RB
When Are We Justified? Elected in Christ; When Jesus Died; When Jesus Rose; When we believe; When we obey and at the Judgment.
I am not certain what you are asking here.  But Justification is one element of salvation along with regeneration (and initial sanctification), all of which occur at precisely the same instant in time.  We are justified when God forgives us our sins.  It is at that point that God declares us righteous.  That is justification.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2071
  • Manna: 39
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)cheives (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #31 on: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 16:39:56 »
Problem: Peter worried about baptizing a Gentile so the message is that Jesus declared both Gentiles and Swine as ceremonially pure or NOT disqualified.

The Jews troubled Paul by Jews--then and now--that Gentiles were NOT RIGHTEOUS. Being righteous in context does not mean that a person is certified perfect.  Paul informed the uninformed Jews that Abraham was JUSTIFIED before he was circumcised and long before there was a Law of Moses or a Jew.

A Gentile who honored God and did righteous acts WAS ACCEPTABLE without being circumcised or keeping the Law.

Being "righteous" or ABLE TO MAKE A PLEA does not mean that they are saved, have remission of any sins, receives A new spirit nor added to the Church BY Christ when we REQUEST it only defined as at the time and place of BAPTISM.  A pig is not "ceremonially impure" but it cannot be added to the kingdom of Christ BY Christ.

1Pet. 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Rom. 5:9 Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD,
          we SHALL BE SAVED from wrath THROUGH him.

Heb. 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, [Church of Christ]
       which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
       and to the SPIRITS of JUST men made PERFECT,


You might be the best lawyer in the world and NOT have the authority to Apply or PLEAD to the Supreme court to be declared innocent. That is why rhetoric WAS education to be able to go before a court at a time when EVERYONE sued someone for lying about them or creating panic in their horse.

Dikai-ôsis setting right, doing justice to: hence, 2. plea of legal right, justification, just claim,
Dikaios I. of persons, observant of custom and social rule, well-ordered, civilised,


A citizen of my county--in a Greek Sense--is righteous if they observe the laws of the county and would be qualified to run for public office. That says nothing about the INTERNAL MORAL condition.  They would not have A RIGHT TO join an assembly of Christ, however good, if they did not believe that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God.

An unrighteous person is:

adik-ēma properly, intentional wrong,  that which is got by wrong, ill gotten goods, [even as tithes and offerings]

Messianic Jews who have the right to BUY AND SELL at once-Christian Universities and many congregations still say that you are UNCLEAN and cannot be part of THEIR Messiah's New Covenant which is their OLD covenant.

These universities declare that you are UNCLEAN if you still quote what the Bible says about "instrumental worship" and you WILL NOT have the right to BUY AND SELL.



« Last Edit: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 17:00:28 by Kenneth Sublett »

Offline Amo

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3248
  • Manna: 29
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #32 on: Sat Jul 21, 2018 - 18:50:27 »
Quote
The Old Regulations & Rituals vs.
“The New Way”

[Also, see “Mr. President” below]

    The old covenant composed the Ten Commandments. “And He declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform—that is, the Ten Commandments” [Deut. 3:13].
 
    All of the other regulations, rituals, writings, and commandments grew out of the Ten Commandments. The old covenant, with its commandments and regulations, was “nailed to the cross”—or came to an end [Eph. 2:14-15]. The new arrangement under Jesus replaced the old arrangement under Moses [[Heb. 8:7-9 & 8:13]. The old became obsolete when the new superseded it. 

The Sabbath and the sacrificial system both predate the giving of the Ten Commandments to the nation of Israel by about 2000 years. I believe you meant Deut. 4:13 above, did you not? The Passover was also established in Egypt before the giving of the Ten Commandments to the nation of Israel(Exo 12). 

Gen 26:2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

What ever commandments, statutes, and laws Abraham kept obviously predated the giving of the Ten Commandments to Israel. No doubt the Ten Commandments were part of the things kept by Abraham, forgotten by time and circumstance, then repeated over again for the nation of Israel after 400 years of slavery. So far your testimony does not seem very accurate.

 
   
Quote
Everything was made new. The Old passed, the New was ushered in. All of the Ten Commandments found in the old covenant scriptures are reinstated in principle under Jesus and the New Way, with the exception of the Sabbath commandment.

The Sabbath is mentioned 55 times in the NT. It’s true meaning is addressed and explained several times by Jesus Himself trying to straighten out the mess the Jews had made of it. Your not being very accurate again. You seem to be tending toward misinformation. The Sabbath commandment is addressed by Jesus as much if not more than the others. This is not to mention His conclusive statement regarding the fact that He did not come to change the commandments at all, but rather fulfill them. Warning against anyone teaching or preaching that the commandments had or will be changed at all.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
   
Quote
In fact, the believers at Galatia were falling back and relying on the old Jewish holy days for salvation. But Paul strongly reprimanded them. He asked them, “Do you wish to be enslaved all over again?”  Then he added, “You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you [Gal. 4:9-10]. 
   
    If it was wrong for the early believers to honor, to celebrate, and to observe those holy days under Moses as a means of salvation, including the Sabbath day, it would be equally wrong for us. Today, under the grace era, no one day is holier than others—not Good Friday, Sour Thursday, Inferior Saturday, Easter, Christmas, Ash Monday, Evergreen Tuesday—not even the first day of the week! 

It has always been wrong to think salvation can be accomplished through any works. Works are a sign of salvation, not the means of it. The Sabbath is not mentioned in Gal 4, or even at all in the book of Galatians. It is not a Jewish holy day though the Jews were commanded to keep it. It was established at creation 2000 years before the Jewish nation existed, Jesus taught it’s proper observance, early Christians kept it, the bible prophesies it’s observance in the new heaven and new earth, and it is God’s Sabbath, not a Jewish holy day.

 
Quote
Under this era, all things are new. The old has passed. We are no longer under Moses and the old covenant. We are under Jesus, who is the New Covenant. “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the new covenant” [Matt. 26:28].

The Ten Commandments are not Moses’ commandments, they are God’s commandments. God spoke them and wrote them Himself twice with His own finger. Jesus is God, and He declared that the commandments would not change till heaven and earth passed.
 
   
Quote
Those under Moses were in bondage to sin in that they could not receive deliverance. Those of us under Jesus are set free from the bondage of sin. Those under Moses were not set free from the bondage of sin until the Lamb of God made the ultimate and final sacrifice.
   
    “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritancenow that He [Jesus] has died to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant” [Heb. 9:15].

Those of the old covenant who by faith confessed their sins over the sacrifice which typified Jesus Christ, received forgiveness for those sins by faith in Him. True, this was not consummated until what those sacrifice typified came to fulfillment, neither would any of us have forgiveness either if it had not been so. They had the gospel preached to them as Paul testifies, but most did not have faith, which Paul warns us about as well. We have the living example and testimony of Jesus Christ, some of which you apparently deny.

Heb 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


Offline NorrinRadd

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1543
  • Manna: 67
  • Gender: Male
  • Everybody is somebody's heretic
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #33 on: Sun Jul 22, 2018 - 03:17:25 »
Please learn the difference between "your" and "you're," "its" and "it's."  ::frustrated::

How can anyone take seriously pontifications about the nuances of theology from someone who cannot handle elementary school level English?

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5610
  • Manna: 317
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Old Regulations & Rituals
« Reply #34 on: Sun Jul 22, 2018 - 03:43:20 »
Please learn the difference between "your" and "you're," "its" and "it's."  ::frustrated::

How can anyone take seriously pontifications about the nuances of theology from someone who cannot handle elementary school level English?


If I were you, I would overlook this, you just may miss a truth, from such people. The apostles were fishermen, etc. etc. they were not part of the arrogant, egotistical, pompous, Sanhedrin~the spiritual blinded educated group, most would have likely been infatuated with them and maybe even seduced because of their natural advantage over most men~BUT definitely be admired by them.  Who were friends of Jesus? Need help? It certainly was not these people:
Quote from: Jude
Jude verse 17~"These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage."
I have met these people and have seen even MEN seduced by them, by them using great swelling words, just as much as women are seduce by such men! Selah.

« Last Edit: Sun Jul 22, 2018 - 04:17:44 by RB »

 

     
anything