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zoonance
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« on: November 08, 2009, 07:19:26 AM »

Who initially coined the phrase "plan of salvation"? 

I have heard things like "It isn't the Plan of Salvation but rather the Man of Salvation!" which seems more biblical, accurate.  Still, the gospel and associated response to it does include human participation.   It certainly isn't the Holy Spirit that needs to have faith, repent of sins, confess the name of Jesus, be immersed into Christ, become a living sacrifice... etc.  (No the water doesn't save, but neither does 'faith' - in the same sense:  Faith is a human being's response - it is still the grace of God available by the blood of Christ that saves.  Confession is from human lips but salvation is still by the grace of God available by the blood of Christ that saves.  etc.

Anyway, who initially coined the phrase "Plan of Salvation" which gives believers fodder to fight over what that plan is?
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« on: November 08, 2009, 07:19:26 AM »

 
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blituri
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2009, 11:34:21 AM »

"God's Scheme of Redemption" has always been well document. The "Plan of Salvation" cannot be summed up in steps but Romans 10 cycles through the natural process from sending out preachers to "calling on the name of the Lord" which in three places is done at the time of Baptism.

The attack of the Plan of Salvation along with the CENI is often used to attack the ANTI-instrumental churches of Christ as they have come to call those who will not AFFIRM and will not stop teaching against instruments--even if being forced into their own congretation.

Ireneaus wrote against Heresies b 120, died c 203. The true Scheme of Redemption in contrast to the Gnostic baptism was was an old pagan understanding: That is Believer's Baptism which which is administered AFTER people have faith and are "perfected." You may have noticed some weasel words about "baptism" in your statement of beliefs.

http://www.piney.com/BapPagan.html

This gnosticism explains Max Lucado's Cosmic Christmas which relates to S.U.N. worship

http://www.piney.com/Shamash.html

And to Rubel Shelly's urge to Baptize Santa and think of the SON God as the S.U.N. god. That is fitting since Apollo (Abaddon or Apollyon) as the having-fallen star and the "locusts" which were Apollo's "musical worship team" in Revelation 18. John calls the SORCERERS.

http://www.piney.com/WinRSSunSanta.html

That is why the sudden WONDER of musical invasion of churches of Christ using the SEVENTH DAY to introduce it along with the Lord's Supper on the Sabbath.  They also use the Sacrificial System devoted to SUN worship as they "Plan of Salvation."

Ireneaus wrote against Heresies b 120, died c 203

http://www.piney.com/FathIrenaHerI.html#LOC_P6573_1554352

Chapter XXI.-The Views of Redemption Entertained by These Heretics.

1. It happens that their tradition respecting redemption is invisible and incomprehensible, as being the mother of things which are incomprehensible and invisible; and on this account, since it is fluctuating, it is impossible simply and all at once to make known its nature, for every one of them hands it down just as his own inclination prompts. Thus there are as many schemes of "redemption" as there are teachers of these mystical opinions.

And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place,

        that this class of men have been instigated by Satan
        to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God,
        and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.

2. They maintain that those who have attained to perfect knowledge must of necessity be regenerated into that power which is above all.

For it is otherwise impossible to find admittance within the Pleroma, since this [regeneration]
        it is which leads them down into the depths of Bythus.

        For the baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins,
        but the redemption brought in by that Christ who descended upon Him, was for perfection;

        and they allege that the former is animal, but the latter spiritual.

And the baptism of John was proclaimed with a view to repentance, but the redemption by Jesus [latin Christ] was brought in for the sake of perfection.

And to this He refers when He says, "And I have another baptism to be baptized with, and I hasten eagerly towards it." Moreover, they affirm that the Lord added this redemption to the sons of Zebedee, when their mother asked that they might sit, the one on His right hand, and the other on His left, in His kingdom, saying, "Can ye be baptized with the baptism which I shall be baptized with? "Paul, too, they declare, has often set forth, in express terms, the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; and this was the same which is handed down by them in so varied and discordant forms.


ALL OF THE PAGAN 'GODS' WERE WORSHIPPED ON THE SABBATH DAY. That is why Christ ordained the church in the wilderness to QUARANTINE them from all of the SUN worship.

I don't see how the Seventh-Day worship to impose musical instruments can not be proof of the prophecy about Apollyon and his locusts or "muses" John called sorcerers. All of these groups have renounced the historic view that the MAN had a PLAN and defined it in very clear terms. Why would people deny the MAN the right to PLAN or to command and example their conduct?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 02:33:27 PM by blituri » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2009, 11:34:21 AM »

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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2009, 01:03:30 PM »

zoonance,

The concept of a plan of salvation, or scheme of redemption, is found in Scripture:

1 Peter 1:17-21.
And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Acts 2:22-24.
"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power."

Acts 4:27-28.
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Ephesians 1:3-6.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Ephesians 3:8-12.
To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

It is a legitimate terminology to express and understand the concept as God presents it in His word.  As for the person who first used the specific terms "plan of salvation" or "scheme of redemption," I don't know.

If folks are arguing about it, it is for the same reason everything else in the Bible is argued over.
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2009, 01:08:35 PM »

zoonance,

The concept of a plan of salvation, or scheme of redemption, is found in Scripture:

1 Peter 1:17-21.
And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Acts 2:22-24.
"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power."

Acts 4:27-28.
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Ephesians 1:3-6.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Ephesians 3:8-12.
To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

It is a legitimate terminology to express and understand the concept as God presents it in His word.  As for the person who first used the specific terms "plan of salvation" or "scheme of redemption," I don't know.

If folks are arguing about it, it is for the same reason everything else in the Bible is argued over.

very true
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2009, 12:44:59 PM »

If Christ did not expect us to RESPOND in some way then why in the name of common sense would He tell us anything about it? No person was every PLANNED to be saved in a pre-determined sense and no person was ever PREPLANNED to burn in hell: that is why they will never give you ONE name of a person who is not declared righteous by their own acts or never said to be a sinner without themselves being blamed.

RIGHTEOUSNESS speaks of a person who LIVES RIGHT and then believes in Christ: the leaders in Jerusalem were NOT righteous and John refused to baptized them. That race of VIPERS would be consumed with a SPIRIT OF BURNING.

Baptism never had any other purpose than to wash away thy sins.  Why is that so powerful? Because THAT was the PLAN of Jesus Christ to QUALIFY people to be DISCIPLES of Him.  The MARK of those saved: a Disciple does not go to ritualistic WORSHIP SERVICES but to a school of Christ through the Bible.

Matt. 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee,
        into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Matt. 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
        All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

The NAME of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus the Christ. Peter etal baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. No one is called a BELIEVER who has not "obeyed that form of teaching and THEN being free from sin" they are able to become DISCIPLES or STUDENTS and not ceremonial legalists.

HERE IS THE PLAN OF SALVATION; I WOULD BE CAREFUL ABOUT CALLING JESUS A LIAR.

Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and
        teach all nations, [disciple them by]
        BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
        and
        TEACHING them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
        and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.  Matt. 28:20

You cannot use the power of SILENCE and be a faithful teacher of Christ: Jesus obeyed just what the Father said: we have NO FURTHER WORDS or ACTS OF SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS to add to a worship service which is NOT a school for disciples of Christ.
 
THE APOSTLES AND RECORDED HISTORY UNDERSTOOD THAT TO BE THE PLAN. Yes, I know, but Paul DID baptize but he did not baptize in the NAME OF PAUL.

Justification or righteousness is based on THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST: your personal faith has no such supernatural power.

A justified person is one who has the standing to call on the name of the Lord BY baptism REQUESTING that he be given A holy spirit or A good conscience.

Abraham was JUSTIFIED by faith BECAUSE

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven,
        and will give unto thy seed all these countries;
        and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham
        obeyed my voice,
        and kept my charge,
        my commandments,
        my statutes,
        and my laws.

Paul said that we are sons of God and of Abraham
        BY FAITH
        When we imitate Abraham and obey by being BAPTIZED.

THAT WAS THE PREDESTINATED PLAN: God never predestinates people you can NAME.

If I believed in PREDESTINATION I would target those who make a major industry out of calling Christ and everyone liars by REFUSING to obey that PATTERN CAPABLE OF BEING IMITATED and then being FREE FROM SIN.

The Monarchy was God's abandonment of Israel to worship the starry host BECAUSE of musical idolatry: Paul uses this FALL FROM GRACE in 1 Corinthians 10 and Romans 10 to PROVE to the Jews that they were NOT PREDESTINATED.

Justification, therefore, meant that both Jew snd Gentile were NOT CEREMONIALLY IMPURE but were QUALIFIED to be baptized because OF THE FAITH of Jesus Christ.  However, a person who is JUSTIFIED or elligibile is NOT YET SAVED.

Justification and Belief

    Inward toward God; One who believes that Jesus is the Son of God is justified in the sense that one "has the power to become a child of God." By declaring God righteous in his demands we have access by this faith into sallvation.

    Outward toward Mankind: If we confess God then God will confess us and if we deny him the He will deny us. Inward conviction is ascribed to the demons but they were ready to be baptized as their confession.

Paul then goes through the process of one who is QUALIFIED or HAS THE POWER to become the child of God:

    For with the heart man believeth unto (not because of) righteousness;
            and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10: 10

    For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,
            and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Rom 10:10NIV

Why is it so hard for the water haters to sort out the difference between JUSTIFICAITON and SALVATION.  Zwingli may have confused that.

Other versions to prove that FOR does not mean 'BECAUSE OF' but to reach some result.

    for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness,
          and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Rom 10:10NAS

    For man believes with his heart and so is justified,
          and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. Rom 10:10RSV

    For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 10:11

    Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect: they all have the same Lord who generously gives his riches to all those who ask him for them. Rom 10:12LIV

    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Rom 10:13

Because the eunuch was Isaiah literate, and Christ in Isaiah and Malachi clearly defined the role of baptism, when he learned that Jesus Was the Christ or the Messiah he REQUESTED to be baptized.

      Rom. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies,
            we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
            much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The same Paul who demanded that we CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD to be saved clearly did not believe in personal predestination

WHAT IS THE PLAN OF SALVATION TO CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD TO REQUEST A FREE GIFT?
       Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,
           Repent, and be baptized every one of you
           in the name of Jesus Christ
           FOR the remission of sins,
           and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

       Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou?
             arise, and be baptized,
             and wash away thy sins,
             calling on the name of the Lord.

       1Pet. 3:21 The like figure [a pattern capable of being imitated]
            whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
            (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
            but the REQUEST FOR a good conscience toward God,)
            by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

If YOU are predestinated and believe that you are IMMUNE from the direct commands of Jesus Christ for ALL to RESPOND to the PLAN OF SALVATION as a calling or invitation, then you are saved while still in your sins, without repenting, without confessing and by refusing to obey with a high hand.

         Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men,
                 him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
         Matt. 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men,
                 him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
         Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth:
                 I came not to send peace, but a sword.

         John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him;
                but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him,
                lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

The required confession BEFORE baptism is "I believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God."

          Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans,
                justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
          Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers
                rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

If you reject baptism you fail to JUSTIFY God and that means to CALL GOD A LIAR.

If you REJECT baptism and make a profession out of calling Christ in the prophets, in person and most of recorded scholars LIARS it MAY BE that you are predestinated because no one able to read BLACK text on BROWN paper can deny that the PLAN of Christ in the prophets and in person to SAVE people by REMITTING sins was to OBEY in BAPTISM "then being free from sin."

If you tell the pastor person that YOU believe Jesus and everyone else that baptism is FOR or IN ORDER TO the remission of sins HE will hurt you just like the pharisees threatened the Christians. That is why you are an ENABLER and have been CULTIFIED and do not have the power to go against the Alpha Male.

Or you MAY be predestinated which happens as a fork in the road after which you go to the destiny of the path you have picked.  God predestined us to be RIGHTEOUS: we can pick a different destiny.



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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2009, 02:44:15 PM »

"God's Scheme of Redemption" has always been well document. The "Plan of Salvation" cannot be summed up in steps but Romans 10 cycles through the natural process from sending out preachers to "calling on the name of the Lord" which in three places is done at the time of Baptism.

The attack of the Plan of Salvation along with the CENI is often used to attack the ANTI-instrumental churches of Christ as they have come to call those who will not AFFIRM and will not stop teaching against instruments--even if being forced into their own congretation.

Ireneaus wrote against Heresies b 120, died c 203. The true Scheme of Redemption in contrast to the Gnostic baptism was was an old pagan understanding: That is Believer's Baptism which which is administered AFTER people have faith and are "perfected." You may have noticed some weasel words about "baptism" in your statement of beliefs.

http://www.piney.com/BapPagan.html

This gnosticism explains Max Lucado's Cosmic Christmas which relates to S.U.N. worship

http://www.piney.com/Shamash.html

And to Rubel Shelly's urge to Baptize Santa and think of the SON God as the S.U.N. god. That is fitting since Apollo (Abaddon or Apollyon) as the having-fallen star and the "locusts" which were Apollo's "musical worship team" in Revelation 18. John calls the SORCERERS.

http://www.piney.com/WinRSSunSanta.html

That is why the sudden WONDER of musical invasion of churches of Christ using the SEVENTH DAY to introduce it along with the Lord's Supper on the Sabbath.  They also use the Sacrificial System devoted to SUN worship as they "Plan of Salvation."

Ireneaus wrote against Heresies b 120, died c 203

http://www.piney.com/FathIrenaHerI.html#LOC_P6573_1554352

Chapter XXI.-The Views of Redemption Entertained by These Heretics.

1. It happens that their tradition respecting redemption is invisible and incomprehensible, as being the mother of things which are incomprehensible and invisible; and on this account, since it is fluctuating, it is impossible simply and all at once to make known its nature, for every one of them hands it down just as his own inclination prompts. Thus there are as many schemes of "redemption" as there are teachers of these mystical opinions.

And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place,

        that this class of men have been instigated by Satan
        to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God,
        and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.

2. They maintain that those who have attained to perfect knowledge must of necessity be regenerated into that power which is above all.

For it is otherwise impossible to find admittance within the Pleroma, since this [regeneration]
        it is which leads them down into the depths of Bythus.

        For the baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins,
        but the redemption brought in by that Christ who descended upon Him, was for perfection;

        and they allege that the former is animal, but the latter spiritual.

And the baptism of John was proclaimed with a view to repentance, but the redemption by Jesus [latin Christ] was brought in for the sake of perfection.

And to this He refers when He says, "And I have another baptism to be baptized with, and I hasten eagerly towards it." Moreover, they affirm that the Lord added this redemption to the sons of Zebedee, when their mother asked that they might sit, the one on His right hand, and the other on His left, in His kingdom, saying, "Can ye be baptized with the baptism which I shall be baptized with? "Paul, too, they declare, has often set forth, in express terms, the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; and this was the same which is handed down by them in so varied and discordant forms.


ALL OF THE PAGAN 'GODS' WERE WORSHIPPED ON THE SABBATH DAY. That is why Christ ordained the church in the wilderness to QUARANTINE them from all of the SUN worship.

I don't see how the Seventh-Day worship to impose musical instruments can not be proof of the prophecy about Apollyon and his locusts or "muses" John called sorcerers. All of these groups have renounced the historic view that the MAN had a PLAN and defined it in very clear terms. Why would people deny the MAN the right to PLAN or to command and example their conduct?

Every time I read one of these posts attacking instruments in church I think of a headline:

"MAN ATTACKS BAND AT HALFTIME"

A crazed man with whip in hand ran onto a football field at halftime yesterday and attacked the muscial band that was performing there.  Screaming the words "Pagan Vipers!!!" he was led off the field in handcuffs.  A tuba player was severely wounded in the attack, red welts appearing on his face and neck.  "I don't know what got into him" said Glenda Smith, a clarinet player, "He really looked like he hated the instruments---He looked at my clarinet like it was his worst enemy".  The attacker, who remains unnamed, is under psychiatric evaluation. It appears the attackers "misison in life" was to rid the world of instruments and music. Doctors are baffled. The band members with injuries were taken to a local hospital.
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2009, 02:44:15 PM »

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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2009, 03:43:24 PM »

Fish: I never did know whether you are a Sucker fish or a Carp fish?

If speaking about the church reminds you of a football game do you attend church in a stadium?

Jesus and Peter wanted a PLAN OF SALVATION which would allow us to SAVE OURSELVES FROM THE CROOKED RACE.  Did I tell you that the CROOKED race included the Scribes and Pharisees Jesus called hypocrites by naming "speakers, singers and instrument players."

The Crooked race were also those who "got drunk on wine" or were FLUTED DOWN before they began to sing the skolion songs and play instruments to display their talent.

So, the PLAN OF SALVATION hasn't worked for you if you Speak out of your own head, sing or play an instrument.  Or, if you buy a TICKET (contribution) to listen to others when you can steal all of the best music from the internet.

Sounds, like you are still SWIMMING AROUND but HOOKED by the fishers of suckers and not MEN.
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2009, 04:46:23 PM »

Fish: I never did know whether you are a Sucker fish or a Carp fish?

If speaking about the church reminds you of a football game do you attend church in a stadium?

Jesus and Peter wanted a PLAN OF SALVATION which would allow us to SAVE OURSELVES FROM THE CROOKED RACE.  Did I tell you that the CROOKED race included the Scribes and Pharisees Jesus called hypocrites by naming "speakers, singers and instrument players."

The Crooked race were also those who "got drunk on wine" or were FLUTED DOWN before they began to sing the skolion songs and play instruments to display their talent.

So, the PLAN OF SALVATION hasn't worked for you if you Speak out of your own head, sing or play an instrument.  Or, if you buy a TICKET (contribution) to listen to others when you can steal all of the best music from the internet.

Sounds, like you are still SWIMMING AROUND but HOOKED by the fishers of suckers and not MEN.

Actually, I'm a guitarfish.  I notice you keep trumpeting the
same message about instruments.  You keep harping about it incessantly
and drumming it into our heads, and I'm not sure why. You warn about
instruments as though you were preaching about the evils of sax and violins.

You like to blow your horn about instruments every chance you get. Is it a cymbal
of your own religiosity? It really can be a snare if you let it. What is your point may I
in choir? Sometimes we need to just stop and use the thinking organ God has placed between our two ears---it is instrumental in our learning processes.





Just kidding with you by the way.    Smile
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2009, 09:25:58 PM »

Pretty punny!

We Bible readers know that music has always been the most powerful way of shutting down the rational (spiritual) mind so that false teachers can pour in all of emotional (feminine) stuff so that you come away convinced that it was YOUR ideal all along. That is why all of the names of instruments and musical terms speak of enchantment or sorcery. That's witchcraft and is a burnable offense.

I keep picking on it because going through a university almost guarantees that you will not be Bible literate. The question is why YOU would let someone fleece you out of your children's health care money to do all within his little pin head to make sure that the words of Christ are NOT heard. THE meaning of music is from mystery which means to "shut the mouth of the victim." It sure works when they pass around that NOT commanded collection plate, huh?

You cannot deny that sermonizing (added c 400) and singing as a legal act (373) has no intention of obeying the direct commands, approved examples and necessary inferences IF you know what means an EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE.

If you understood the meaning of that you would not even hallucinate making music when Christ comes to be our ONLY Teacher when the elders "teach that which is written."

Of if you understood the word SPEAK clearly defined as "the opposite of poetry or music." All simple simons understood that "people set their lies to melodies to deceive the simple minded."

By the way the PSALLO word which has NO musical meaning means to "pull or pluck with your finger and NOT with a plectrum." 

So if just about EVERYONE is on the dole MAKING MUSIC wholesale, why shouldn't at least ONE person be allowed to read BLACK text on BROWN paper and "blow the trumpet": If I didn't do that I would be the one to be burned up whereas John called the speakers, singers and instrument players SORCERERS and they are the ones to be burned up.  Sure, Christ inspired Isaiah 30 to warn that HELL was prepared for God's enemies and the MARKS or SOUNDS of God driving them into hell is the wind, string and percussion instruments that Lucifer--the singing and harp playing prostitute brought with him/her/it in the garden of Eden.

I say that if you MUSICATE in the presence of a Holy Christ Who wrote all of the songs and sermons, you are doomed: especially if you believe the sowers of discord quite eager to lie about all of the instrument or music terms in the Bible.

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

So, I will stop being the almost sole Church of Christer when I am very quiet some Sunday morning and hear the trumpet VOICE.  In our society I don't know why religious musicians would be disturbed that I haven't found any bit of history which does not mark the effeminate or worse.  I'll keep looking but I have just about everything from clay tablets to the latest scholarship. So WHO is fanatic: the one who DOES IT or the one just laughing and laughing and laughing.
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2009, 09:25:58 PM »

 
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fish153
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2009, 02:44:49 PM »

Pretty punny!

We Bible readers know that music has always been the most powerful way of shutting down the rational (spiritual) mind so that false teachers can pour in all of emotional (feminine) stuff so that you come away convinced that it was YOUR ideal all along. That is why all of the names of instruments and musical terms speak of enchantment or sorcery. That's witchcraft and is a burnable offense.

I keep picking on it because going through a university almost guarantees that you will not be Bible literate. The question is why YOU would let someone fleece you out of your children's health care money to do all within his little pin head to make sure that the words of Christ are NOT heard. THE meaning of music is from mystery which means to "shut the mouth of the victim." It sure works when they pass around that NOT commanded collection plate, huh?

You cannot deny that sermonizing (added c 400) and singing as a legal act (373) has no intention of obeying the direct commands, approved examples and necessary inferences IF you know what means an EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE.

If you understood the meaning of that you would not even hallucinate making music when Christ comes to be our ONLY Teacher when the elders "teach that which is written."

Of if you understood the word SPEAK clearly defined as "the opposite of poetry or music." All simple simons understood that "people set their lies to melodies to deceive the simple minded."

By the way the PSALLO word which has NO musical meaning means to "pull or pluck with your finger and NOT with a plectrum." 

So if just about EVERYONE is on the dole MAKING MUSIC wholesale, why shouldn't at least ONE person be allowed to read BLACK text on BROWN paper and "blow the trumpet": If I didn't do that I would be the one to be burned up whereas John called the speakers, singers and instrument players SORCERERS and they are the ones to be burned up.  Sure, Christ inspired Isaiah 30 to warn that HELL was prepared for God's enemies and the MARKS or SOUNDS of God driving them into hell is the wind, string and percussion instruments that Lucifer--the singing and harp playing prostitute brought with him/her/it in the garden of Eden.

I say that if you MUSICATE in the presence of a Holy Christ Who wrote all of the songs and sermons, you are doomed: especially if you believe the sowers of discord quite eager to lie about all of the instrument or music terms in the Bible.

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

So, I will stop being the almost sole Church of Christer when I am very quiet some Sunday morning and hear the trumpet VOICE.  In our society I don't know why religious musicians would be disturbed that I haven't found any bit of history which does not mark the effeminate or worse.  I'll keep looking but I have just about everything from clay tablets to the latest scholarship. So WHO is fanatic: the one who DOES IT or the one just laughing and laughing and laughing.


Wow.  You really abhor music.  I guess you would have slapped David's hand as he played his harp when singing the Psalms to God while tending the sheep.  David played so well that Saul asked him to play to help soothe him in his fears.  This man of God, David, played instruments quite a bit.  And the Psalms are some of the most beautiful "songs" ever written. 
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2009, 02:44:49 PM »

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blituri
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 03:42:12 PM »

Nope: I am quite certain that being a shepherd David took 3 or four sticks and maybe a leg bone, stretch sheep gut string over it and has a lyre meaning no sounding board.  I have a flute made out of a Deer's tibia.

David NEVER EVER led singing or played in the synagogue where people attended school of the Bible as far as we know.

David was not a Levite and would never be able to make religious noise which was called EXORCISM as they "made the lambs dumb before the slaughter" in a sacrificial system God imposed as a curse.

David DID dress up in the toga and ephod and sang, danced, 'rose up to play' and made himself vile with the camp following girls.  He went NAKED and boasted about making himself VILE.

So what? David was KING and the Levite musicians were under the KING and COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY.  I suppose you would use the bagpipers and pipers turning the enemy warriors into a frenzy as a PATTERNISM for worship the church when the church was never ever a WORSHIP CENTER but a School of the Bible. A disciple of Christ goes to the SCHOOL OF CHRIST and his sole textbook is what Christ wrote in the prophets and apostles. The ABANDONED monarchy had better not be your patternism or you will find yourselves under the Babylon mother of harlots (Rev 17) as a "lusted after fruit performing as a speaker, singer and instrument player John calls SORCERY.

The instrumental prophesying of the WARRIOR LEVITES is called SOOTHSAYING and they burn witches.

If you need to play your harp and dance naked I would NOT try doing that on the podium.
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2009, 05:13:42 PM »

Nope: I am quite certain that being a shepherd David took 3 or four sticks and maybe a leg bone, stretch sheep gut string over it and has a lyre meaning no sounding board.  I have a flute made out of a Deer's tibia.

David NEVER EVER led singing or played in the synagogue where people attended school of the Bible as far as we know.

David was not a Levite and would never be able to make religious noise which was called EXORCISM as they "made the lambs dumb before the slaughter" in a sacrificial system God imposed as a curse.

David DID dress up in the toga and ephod and sang, danced, 'rose up to play' and made himself vile with the camp following girls.  He went NAKED and boasted about making himself VILE.

So what? David was KING and the Levite musicians were under the KING and COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY.  I suppose you would use the bagpipers and pipers turning the enemy warriors into a frenzy as a PATTERNISM for worship the church when the church was never ever a WORSHIP CENTER but a School of the Bible. A disciple of Christ goes to the SCHOOL OF CHRIST and his sole textbook is what Christ wrote in the prophets and apostles. The ABANDONED monarchy had better not be your patternism or you will find yourselves under the Babylon mother of harlots (Rev 17) as a "lusted after fruit performing as a speaker, singer and instrument player John calls SORCERY.

The instrumental prophesying of the WARRIOR LEVITES is called SOOTHSAYING and they burn witches.

If you need to play your harp and dance naked I would NOT try doing that on the podium.


blituri---

Listen, I respect your right to believe what you want.  But I do have to say this.  Many years ago when I first became a Christian I was alone in my bedroom.  Someone had given me a Gospel of John to read.  I had no idea what it was really, but as I read something began to happen, and soon I asked Jesus if I could be one of his sheep.

Joy and tears literally engulfed me and I KNEW I was a child of God.  The very first thing I did was to pick up my guitar and write a song to Jesus---a song of thankfulness and wonder.  It was written for HIM and I sang it even though I have a terrible singing voice. I've never sung it in church, but I know deep in my heart that if it was sung in church God would accept it as the worship it was meant to be----a song from the heart expressing gratitude and praise to Him for his salvation.

So, even though I appreciate your right to believe I have to say that I cannot see nor understand where you are coming from at all. Music is a gift from God!  The very fact we have vocal chords that can be used to sing praise to God, and the design of the hands that can be used to play the piano or guitar so perfectly are signs that God also has created and loves music!  Listen to the birds and many other musical sounds in creation and we can know that God created music.  I just have to totally disagree with you concerning this. But all the best to you!!  God bless!
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2009, 05:25:48 PM »

Jesus and the apostles sung a hymn after the Lord's Supper and right before Jesus went to the Garden for His fierce struggle...

Mat 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Mat 26:30  And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Music is such a precious gift of God's...Why, He sings over us!

Zep 3:17  The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

fish153...I so enjoyed that short testimony!  I got saved reading John 1:1 when alone in my apartment and I also knew I was saved  Smile
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Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
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Everything I am for Your kingdom's cause
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2009, 05:25:48 PM »

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fish153
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« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2009, 06:24:21 PM »

Jesus and the apostles sung a hymn after the Lord's Supper and right before Jesus went to the Garden for His fierce struggle...

Mat 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Mat 26:30  And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Music is such a precious gift of God's...Why, He sings over us!

Zep 3:17  The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

fish153...I so enjoyed that short testimony!  I got saved reading John 1:1 when alone in my apartment and I also knew I was saved  Smile

Thanks Conquered!  I was actually reading in John 10 where it says "my sheep hear my voice and they follow me" and I heard His voice speaking to my heart.  I said out loud "Jesus, can I be one of your sheep?" and in that moment He truly entered my heart.   That is so great you were saved from reading that one verse too!  Isn't God AMAZING!!   Clapping up high
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2009, 06:49:58 PM »

Actually they HYMNED a HYMN: This was one of the hallels which was sung once a year at Passover.

The Jews held it idolatry to use these hymns regulaly.

If you want to observe Passover in the home, once a year, "hymn" and GO OUT then that will be just fine.
No preaching, no singing in a tuneful sense, no rote prayers, no collection plates!  I think that would be wonderful: pretty much what the Campbells restored for a moment.

To "hymn" is in the form of Hebrew cantillation which is Paul's word SPEAK.

You can go to Bible Class to let Jesus get a word in edge-wise for one hour and then you have 168 hours left to make music 24/7.

Jesus asked the apostles: Could you not wait for me one hour?  The modern answer is a loud NO WAY!
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