Fish, whatever happened to you doesn't change anything in the Biblical text.  That's the point of discussion.

Aren't you still?  ::raisingeyebrow::

This is the only BIBLICAL plan of salvation: commanded by Jesus Christ, Practiced by the Apostles, believed by most of church history.  If you want to believe "beyond the sacred page" you have no assurance guaranteed by the seal of baptism.  Your choice!


There is no remission of sins promised other than to those who have obeyed the TUPOS and followed Jesus Christ into a watery tomb rather than a literal one.

Just never use your personal feelings to trump the Word of God. I doubt you will find any historical scholar who would dare assert that "baptism does not save" who did not quickly add "without faith." The faith only dogma was only to repudiate sprinkling children who cannot have any faith but are baptized on the faith of their parents.

You need to think long and hard before deciding to call Christ in prophecy, in person and everyone else just plain liars.

Nonsense! You are accusing Jesus of being a legalists: He was baptized to FULLY PREACH BAPTISM or to FILL IT FULL of His own righteousness.  WORKS always points to the Law of Moses imposed because of musical idolatry.


If you have not obeyed that FORM meaning "a pattern to be imitated" then Paul says that you are still in your sins.

The label 'salvation by works' applied to everything but a bit of mental consent is getting a bit worn out.

Quote Zoo
The label 'salvation by works' applied to everything but a bit of mental consent is getting a bit worn out.

Unfortunately there is much misunderstanding on both sides.  Even those who believe in salvation by grace often misunderstand that obedience and a change in life is involved.  It  is primarily a difference in motivation.  Those of us that believe in salvation by grace are motivated to obey out of love and gratitude.  However, I do not see salvation being based on any one act of human obedience or proper understanding.  Rather it is based on a heart that desires to walk with God.  There are many examples of men who failed in obedience yet God held them up as examples of faith.  Men like David, Abraham and Paul.

Jimmy
No!  I think there is much misunderstanding on both sides.

Jimmy here IMO is where both sides often go wrong.

Those who believe in salvation by faith through grace only often contend that obedience is not important.

Those who contend that salavtion by faith through faith plus obeidence often make salvation contengent on works or obedience rather thana heart that wants to obey.   Often salvation is boiled down to obeying certain commands.

I believe the truth is between the 2 extremes.  We are saved by faith through grace and that produces a heart and mind that wants to be obedient to Christ.  It is the desire to be faithful to God not the actual acts of obedience to any one or group of doctrines or commands that God wants.

Examples David committed adultery, lied and murder.  Yet God described him as a "man after God's own heart".

Abraham doubted God and took hagar to produce a child.  Yet God kept His promise and gave him the child that built the great nation.

Paul could not refrain from sin and could not do the good that he wanted to yet he was chosen as an apostle.

Heb 11 (the hall of faith) teaches us that it is faith that God wants and it leads to obedience.

I can't get spell check to work so forgive mistakes.  I am sure they are there because I depend on spell check.