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Christian Interests => Theology Forum => Topic started by: Reformer on Tue Aug 25, 2020 - 20:24:44

Title: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Reformer on Tue Aug 25, 2020 - 20:24:44
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
The Sinner vs. Free Will And
Capability

    Explanation—This new dialogue is a carryover of the topic—Calvinism—that has been discussed over the past two weeks. Due to the age of and “hits” on the previous one, perhaps we need to “change courses” and adopt a new look.—Buff.
_________

    If the sinner is incapable of choosing the path he will tread, as Calvinists seem to imply, and if God operates upon his heart to the degree that he cannot resist, we have a Savior who is not issuing an invitation to the sinner, as Jesus did, but a Savior who issues an ultimatum and leaves no alternative but to accept. This is contrary to hundreds of scriptures, particularly Jesus’ invitation to all “those who are burdened.” He said, “Come to me, all of you...” But I see the Calvinist saying, in so many words, “Come to me, because I’m constraining you to come. You have no choice.” 

More On The Receptive Heart

    A few months ago, I joined a Calvinist discussion group on the Internet. I don’t recall any two of them agreeing on Calvinism’s main thrusts. One would assert one thing, and another would propose a different thought. This helped me to understand why Calvinists and Baptists are so divided and sub-divided. 

    One Calvinist brother inquired, “But what makes one’s heart receptive over another?” His question seems to imply that God grants some people a receptive heart while denying the same “imputation” to others. If the implication is as I view it, and I’ve dealt with Calvinists enough to know it is, God has created a large segment of the world’s population for the single purpose of banishing them to hell eternally. This is not descriptive of a merciful and loving God. Furthermore, it contradicts heaven’s message of salvation, which entreats all men to be saved. 

    Each man has the ability to develop either a receptive heart or a non-receptive heart. He is free to choose either. Jesus says as much in John 7:17. Man's ability is granted by God. It is part of man’s creation. The kind of heart he cultivates is of his own choosing. One Calvinist brother wrote, “Our sinful nature means we will always freely choose to rebel against Him, unless He gives us a new heart.” 

    Yes, even as born-again believers there’s an element of rebelliousness in each of us. As unregenerate sinners initially, we rebelled until God gave us a new creation. The issue here is just how does God give us a new heart? I’m compelled to answer with Paul, who wrote, “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message...” [Rom. 10:17]. When the message is heard, man has a choice to make. “If anyone chooses to do God’s will...” No, I’m not isolating these passages from others and building a case for my own benefit. All scriptures pertaining to the subject at hand must be reconciled. 

Free Gift Or Obligation?

    To me, a loving and merciful God would never create billions of people for the single purpose of condemning and banishing them from His presence forever. Yet, this is what the Calvinist position signals. 

    God wants all men to be saved. Listen to the Spirit as He writes through the apostle Paul, “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” [1 Tim. 2:4]. God, through the sacrifice of His Son, made it possible for all men to achieve a state of salvation. Paul says again, “This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance—and for this we labor and strive—that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe” [1 Tim. 4:9-10]

    Apparently, God foreknew who would be saved, and these became His elect or chosen ones [Rom. 8:29-30]. Tell me, please—and consider this carefully: If God’s elect must accept the offer of salvation, if they must choose to be saved, salvation and eternal life are no longer free gifts but obligations. And if obligations, we work to achieve our salvation, the very opposite of what heaven teaches. “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation” [Rom. 4:4]

    If a believer must accept God’s gracious gift of salvation, if he has no choice in the matter, the “free gift” becomes a forceful act on the part of the giver. A gift enforced upon its recipient is not free! And, if required to receive a “free gift,” the gift ceases to be free and becomes a coercive exercise on the part of the giver. If God’s elect must choose to be saved, they are like mechanical robots and lifeless puppets who were arbitrarily programmed before the foundation of the world. They can make no move or author any decision until their creator feeds into them certain commands and codes, or pulls a certain string. 
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: johntwayne on Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 02:57:46
Excellent post.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 03:06:05
This new dialogue is a carryover of the topic—Calvinism—that has been discussed over the past two weeks
Really? Calvinism by me was very seldom mentioned, you need to go back and read those posts again. Nevertheless, be as it may, we can come here and discuss whatever you like~it seems as though you have a problem with Calvinism and the manner in which they teach regeneration, well so do I, yet they are so much closer to the truth than you.

I read over your OP and I must say what I said last week, and it is this: "many are bolder to affirm than they are able to prove"~bare affirmation without biblical proof means nothing more than one is speaking in the air to himself because it loves to hear himself speak, not because he has truth.

You affirm a few things without any support backing up your strong assertions. I'm leaving to go over to the next county, for most of the morning, but I shall return and begin to address your weak assertions against the true teachings of the word of God.

I will not defend Calvinism, they have their own problems, yet some great men of the faith held to some of their tenets, which many were biblical, yet when we follow man, we also generally embrace their errors with some of their true teachings. This was said of Jesus:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
John 2:24,25~"But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."
The very best of men, including you and myself (NOT that we are among the best) are altogether lighter than vanity!
Quote from: David
Psalme 69:2~"Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity."
I believe THIS is what we have been speaking about the past week or so~sad but true of ALL of us at our very best state and the holiest precious moment we can have in the flesh...... THIS IS TRUE OF US.

Okay, I shall return the Lord willing.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 03:53:58
Excellent post.
Not so fast johntwayne...we shall see once tested by the word of God how excellent it is.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 07:23:43
Really? Calvinism by me was very seldom mentioned,....
RB, it really isn't necessary for you to mention Calvinism.  Every time you say anything that aligns with the false doctrine of Total Depravity you bring Calvinism into the discussion.  The false teaching of Total Depravity is at the heart of the entire Calvinist Soteriology.  So that with Total Depravity being false, then the entire Calvinist Soteriology is false.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Jaime on Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 07:51:09
It’s similar to not having to use the term socialism to refer clearly to socialistic thought. One can recognize Marxism without out any mention of Karl Marx or The term Marxism. One can certainly hold to the error of “Calvinism” without ever even hearing the term Calvinism. Same as people calling me a Campbellite, and I am more ignorant of his writings than almost any author. But I understand what people are referring to.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 11:48:08


    God wants all men to be saved. Listen to the Spirit as He writes through the apostle Paul, “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” [1 Tim. 2:4]. God, through the sacrifice of His Son, made it possible for all men to achieve a state of salvation. Paul says again, “This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance—and for this we labor and strive—that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe” [1 Tim. 4:9-10]

    Apparently, God foreknew who would be saved, and these became His elect or chosen ones [Rom. 8:29-30]. Tell me, please—and consider this carefully: If God’s elect must accept the offer of salvation, if they must choose to be saved, salvation and eternal life are no longer free gifts but obligations. And if obligations, we work to achieve our salvation, the very opposite of what heaven teaches. “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation” [Rom. 4:4]

    If a believer must accept God’s gracious gift of salvation, if he has no choice in the matter, the “free gift” becomes a forceful act on the part of the giver. A gift enforced upon its recipient is not free! And, if required to receive a “free gift,” the gift ceases to be free and becomes a coercive exercise on the part of the giver. If God’s elect must choose to be saved, they are like mechanical robots and lifeless puppets who were arbitrarily programmed before the foundation of the world. They can make no move or author any decision until their creator feeds into them certain commands and codes, or pulls a certain string.

You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary.

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.'

Does this not clearly say that God draws those?  And that only those drawn will have
the option to accept or reject Jesus?

I can easily see that the Gift of Jesus is only meant for those who God calls. But it is not a free gift. Acceptance in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, Repentance and Baptism are necessary for those who God calls.

In other words... you are paying your dues.

That the offer of Jesus' salvation I just do not see as  a free gift

But then there is a seeming contradiction...

1 Tim 4: 10

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe ??????

 ALL men are saved?

As I said elsewhere, the authors of the Bible do not clearly offer the same ideas.





Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Reformer on Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 17:24:26

Rella:

    "You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
_____

    You will note that "draw him" cannot be translated "force him." This is your error, Rella. A man is drawn by the message of salvation, not forced.

Buff
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Reformer on Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 17:25:56
Special Note On The Perseverance Of The Saints –

    The apostle Paul, in comparing the Christian walk to a race, says, “I beat [discipline] my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize” [1 Cor. 9:27]

    While Paul wasn’t planning for it to happen to him, is not the apostle saying that one might run in the Christian race in such a way as to be disqualified and not receive the prize? This conforms to 2 Tim. 2:5, “If anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.” 

    These passages do not fit well with the Calvinist doctrine of “the perseverance of the saints”—that is, that the elect are unconditionally saved. Paul was of the elect and was writing to the elect, and he warned that the undisciplined might be disqualified and not receive the reward. Or as he told Timothy, the race has rules, which are not to be taken lightly, lest one not be crowned. Pray tell me, how could one make it plainer that that! 

Concluding Question & Comments

    Is heaven behind the Calvinistic persuasion? It seems to me that if heaven is behind the main thrusts of this belief system, God failed to communicate it in terms the average man can understand. I like to think of myself as possessing the intellectual capabilities of decoding understandable communiqués.

    But if God is the author of this theological belief system, He has communicated His will in such a way that I’m incapable of comprehending it. It is a “mess” of jumbled entities. Furthermore, I’m always suspicious of a belief system that takes volumes to explain. 

    Yes, I know, there are scriptures that are difficult to understand. “His [Paul’s] letters contain some things that are hard to understand” [2 Peter 3:16]. The scheme of redemption does not fall into that category, however. But the aspects of Calvinism, which relate to the scheme of liberation, is complicated and almost impossible to “put together” in a comprehensible manner. Yes, I am more than suspicious of it.

Buff
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 17:37:06
Rella, if I may reply to your post.

You asked about God drawing men unto him and how it is done. I think you can find your answer to that clearly answered in the bible.

Romans 10:12-18 (KJV)
12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

You are saved by hearing the word of God the gospel message and in that message is told how to respond. See the second chapter of Acts where the full gospel was preached and who God was adding to the Church. Its all there in the good book we just have to open our hearts to hear and believe what was recorded for us. The answer is there. We just have to trust and obey for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Bemark on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 02:18:16
The sinner CAN choose not to . The born again CAN choose not to.

They both can

What makes them different. The Blood of Jesus Christ
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 03:51:16
I'm going to make a post later today or tomorrow until then anyone interesting in understanding what the church has taught on this subject should read Martin Luther's book one that I read many years ago, one of the old classic .

MARTIN LUTHER AT HIS BEST~THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL

There are few books written over 400 years ago are still applicable today; Martin Luther's masterpiece, The Boncage of the Will, is one of those books. Anyone desiring to know more about the root of dissent between Luther and the Catholic Church must read this book.

In his treatise Luther systematically demolishes Erasmus' arguments in favor of free-will. Luther brilliantly illustrates why the will is in total and complete bondage and enslavement to sin, and why free-will is a completely meaningless term. Luther argues that the only thing the will is free to do is to sin and rebel against God, which it does naturally and even more so when God hardens man's heart~OR, another way of saying that....when God leaves man TO HIMSELF ( just as he did Pharaoh ) without using any restrain upon man, and this he can and often does through many different means.

Luther shows that salvation is totally dependent on the grace of God and His sovereign Will. To say that even a small part of the human will can prepare itself to receive God's grace is an utterly ludicrous sentiment. Erasmus believes that a human being by a very small effort can earn God's grace. Luther totally destroys this view and shows that to espouse such a view makes one worse than the Pelagians, who held that it took numerous great works to earn God's grace.

This book is as applicable today as it was when Luther first wrote this book. When so many Protestant Churches ( and individuals ) hold to a soteriological view more akin to that of Erasmus, it is absolutely vital that the truth of the Reformation and be brought back into the spotlight on this all-important doctrine~err here and one's gospel cannot be of God, but another gospel, which truly IS NOT another for there is only ONE GOSPEL. Read this book to gain a greater understanding of the major area of disagreement among the Reformers and the Catholic Church of that time, and also to understand that our salvation is not predicated on any meritorious work that we accomplish, but simply on the grace of God.

The denial of free will was the main the position of the Reformation. The Reformers had always been settled on this crucial issue. This was the “manifesto” of the Reformation. On this issue, the Gospel, and Reformation Christianity, stands or falls. The selling of indulgences and other ecclesiastical abuses were not the central issues. They were the occasion for the Reformation, not the cause. Luther at the end of his rebuttal, in his book ‘Bondage of the Will’, praises Erasmus thus:

“I give you hearty praise and commendation on this further account—that you alone, in contrast with others, have attacked the real thing, that is, the essential issue. You have not wearied me with those extraneous issues about the Papacy, purgatory, indulgences and such like trifles. . . . You, and you alone, have seen the hinge on which all turns, and aimed for the vital spot” (319).

Erasmus had understood the issues clearly and went straight for the jugular. If Erasmus had succeeded in this debate against Luther, Roman Catholicism would have triumphed, and the Reformation lost. What Erasmus failed to do 500 years ago, he now succeeds magnificently among the supposed posterity of the Reformation, who are even now returning to Rome.

If there is ever going to be a reclaiming of the Gospel, if there is ever going to be a second Reformation, this essential issue—the bondage of the will—must once again be proclaimed and successfully defended. No lesser victory will do.

[Quoted from – ‘Martin Luther on Free-Will’ from The Highway] Go online and read this book..." maybe " Luther's greatest work that he has in print. 

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/pdf/luther_arbitrio.pdf
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 05:48:11
You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary.

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.'

John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."


Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 06:19:16
The denial of free will was the main the position of the Reformation.
I am not sure that is really true.  I think the main position of the Reformation that came from Martin Luther was Sola Scriptura.  The Catholic Church considered tradition and scripture, as interpreted by the Roman magisterium, both as equal sources of inspired doctrine. That was Luther's major objection to so much of what the Catholic Church taught.


Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 06:46:18
From the book you referenced we have the following:

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.

Sect. 9.—THIS, therefore, is also essentially necessary and wholesome for Christians to know: That God foreknows nothing by contingency, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His immutable, eternal, and infallible will. By this thunderbolt, "Free-will" is thrown prostrate, and utterly dashed to pieces.



This constitutes a fundamental error of Martin Luther in his treatise.  He believed that foreknowledge demanded foreordainment.  In other words Martine Luther thought that the only way God could know the future absolutely was if He caused that future absolutely. That is simply not true. And frankly, RB, I do not think you believe that.  Because if God's foreknowledge exists only by His predestination, then God is the absolute cause of sin.  That cannot be.

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Texas Conservative on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 07:49:54
Special Note On The Perseverance Of The Saints –

    The apostle Paul, in comparing the Christian walk to a race, says, “I beat [discipline] my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize” [1 Cor. 9:27]

    While Paul wasn’t planning for it to happen to him, is not the apostle saying that one might run in the Christian race in such a way as to be disqualified and not receive the prize? This conforms to 2 Tim. 2:5, “If anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.” 

    These passages do not fit well with the Calvinist doctrine of “the perseverance of the saints”—that is, that the elect are unconditionally saved. Paul was of the elect and was writing to the elect, and he warned that the undisciplined might be disqualified and not receive the reward. Or as he told Timothy, the race has rules, which are not to be taken lightly, lest one not be crowned. Pray tell me, how could one make it plainer that that! 

Concluding Question & Comments

    Is heaven behind the Calvinistic persuasion? It seems to me that if heaven is behind the main thrusts of this belief system, God failed to communicate it in terms the average man can understand. I like to think of myself as possessing the intellectual capabilities of decoding understandable communiqués.

    But if God is the author of this theological belief system, He has communicated His will in such a way that I’m incapable of comprehending it. It is a “mess” of jumbled entities. Furthermore, I’m always suspicious of a belief system that takes volumes to explain. 

    Yes, I know, there are scriptures that are difficult to understand. “His [Paul’s] letters contain some things that are hard to understand” [2 Peter 3:16]. The scheme of redemption does not fall into that category, however. But the aspects of Calvinism, which relate to the scheme of liberation, is complicated and almost impossible to “put together” in a comprehensible manner. Yes, I am more than suspicious of it.

Buff

Once again, you attempt to speak with authority, but instead speak with ignorance.  The prize is salvation, and we must work for it? 

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the "Perseverance (Preservation) of the Saints" even teaches.  Calvinist thought about unconditional election is not once someone is saved they can do anything and be saved (OSAS), but rather those that God elected to salvation would necessarily persevere until the end.  The teaching would be that one who did not persevere until the end was never truly saved to begin with.

You can certainly disagree doctrinally with what is taught by Calvinism, but instead of setting up a straw man and soundly defeating it, perhaps you should look to see what they actually teach first.

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Texas Conservative on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 07:56:45
Rella:

    "You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
_____

    You will note that "draw him" cannot be translated "force him." This is your error, Rella. A man is drawn by the message of salvation, not forced.

Buff

You don't even believe that man needs to be drawn.  He can just be ignorant and be a "noble savage."  You shouldn't even engage in discussions after displays of humanistic thought you brought forth in the "Ultimate Fate of Billions" threads you started.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: DaveW on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 08:09:23
My question is this: Since God exists outside of time and can see "the end from the beginning," (Isa 46.10) does not terms like "foreknowledge," "foreordainment" and "foresee" become meaningless?  Does it not limit God to be subject to time?
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 09:05:05
My question is this: Since God exists outside of time and can see "the end from the beginning," (Isa 46.10) does not terms like "foreknowledge," "foreordainment" and "foresee" become meaningless?  Does it not limit God to be subject to time?
No, the time element applies to us.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: DaveW on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 09:11:40
No, the time element applies to us.
Except in post #14 you are applying it to God.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:02:34
Except in post #14 you are applying it to God.
So when Paul says, "For those whom He foreknew...."(Rom 8:29), you think he was subjecting God to time?  Interesting. Or how about Peter, when he said, "who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....."(1 Pet 1:1-2)?  You think he was subjecting God to time?
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:10:27
You don't even believe that man needs to be drawn.  He can just be ignorant and be a "noble savage."  You shouldn't even engage in discussions after displays of humanistic thought you brought forth in the "Ultimate Fate of Billions" threads you started.
Perhaps you should go back and look at some of your own displays on any number of subjects to see if you should engage in those discussions. More than a few of them were entirely absent of anything other than humanistic thought.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Texas Conservative on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:13:42
Perhaps you should go back and look at some of your own displays on any number of subjects to see if you should engage in those discussions. More than a few of them were entirely absent of anything other than humanistic thought.

I provided an example.  You did not.   rofl

Here is an example of your humanistic reasoning:

Absolutely, soterion.

::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

+1

I would add a couple of thoughts here.  We are told that the reward the believer is eternal life and the reward of the unbeliever to condemnation.  We need to be careful of who we call and unbeliever.  If one has not heard the gospel, is that one and unbeliever?  I don't think so.

In John 5:28-29 Jesus said, "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

There are other passages that make similar statements.  I believe that just as there are differing levels of the resurrection of life in heaven, there are also different levels of judgement.  We all know friends or relatives who were not believers, but were basically good people.  I do not believe that God's judgement for them will be the same as one such as a Stalin, Hitler, or Mao Zedong who were and exhibited evil in the worst way.  That does not seem to me to be good judgement.  But maybe that is just me hoping for the best for some that I knew and loved who were not "believers".
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:19:22
I provided an example.  You did not.   rofl
No you didn't you just referred to "displays of humanistic thought" in the topic, "Ultimate Fate of Billions".

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Texas Conservative on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:31:52
No you didn't you just referred to "displays of humanistic thought" in the topic, "Ultimate Fate of Billions".

The entire thread is predicated on humanistic thought.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:42:22
The entire thread is predicated on humanistic thought.
Just like nearly everything you post.  If you say anything in this forum other than posting an exact quote from the Bible, it is [your] humanistic thought.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 14:47:41
You will note that "draw him" cannot be translated "force him." This is your error, Rella. A man is drawn by the message of salvation, not forced.
I generally to not step in when a post is directed to another person, but, you are who you hang around with and I picked up on one of 4WD bad habits, so just attribute this to him for me doing so.  ::smile::

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST...HEAR YE HIM....
John 6:44~"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

""No man can come to me"~Coming to Christ here is to believe on Jesus Christ as God’s Son from heaven.The issue at stake – clearly stated as a premise ~is believing on Him (6:29). Note the clear comparison between coming and believing on Him (Jn 6:35). Note again the clear comparison between believing and coming (John 6:36-37). Note a third clear comparison of coming and believing on Him (John 6:44-47). Note a fourth clear comparison of believing and coming to Him (6:64-65). This coming to Jesus Christ is sincere faith meeting God’s approval with works. Insincere faith that does not qualify is identified in John (2:23-25; 8:30-59). Real, or biblical faith changes men, but real faith requires a real work of grace by God.Real faith~ and in John 6 it must be emphasized repeatedly~is not assent.Real faith owns Jesus as Saviour and Lord with passion, obedience, cost, etc. We should let these six words lodge in our memory and be a foundation stone of truth.

No man has more right to modify these words than Satan in Genesis 3:4. Since Genesis 3:6 man has been dead spiritually in need of total resurrection.
There is no cure or remedy to offer a dead man......the Spirit must give the man life.

Any study of salvation must deal with this fact of man’s depravity and death. No man can come to me = all men run to sin in hatred and rebellion against God. Paul’s first chapter in Romans is a terrible indictment of men and truth (Rom 1:18-32). Paul then used the scriptures to show the utter depravity of man (Romans 3:9-18)~which we mentioned above. Luke’s record of Paul’s preaching at Antioch illustrated it (Acts 13:38-52).

Natural man greatly opposes truth (Romans 8:7-8; Ist Corinthains 2:14; Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19). There is no ability of heart or will for natural man to submit to the Son of God. It is not a matter of intellect or intelligence as much as depravity of the will. Men can still reason logically, but they will not do so toward spiritual truth...yea, cannot!  Jesus denied a ruler of the Jews the ability to see Christ’s kingdom (John 3:3). Jesus on trial for His life declared that the Jews would not believe (John 5:40). Jesus denied another Jewish audience the ability to hear Him (John 8:43,47). Man’s universal depravity is described in detail by Paul (Romans 1:18-32). AGAIN, there is no man, Jew or Gentile, able to understand such things (Romans 3:9-18). Natural man is dead to spiritual truth of God ( AGIAN...Romans 8:7-8; Ist Corintians 2:14; Ephesians 2:1-3). Therefore, no effort or method will help to bring an unregenerate man to Christ. Isaiah wrote that a change of environment cannot help sinful man (Isaiah 26:10). Jesus rejected even Lazarus returning from the dead as helpful (Luke 16:31) Jesus shortly suggested ascension back to heaven would not help (6:62-65). How much less profitable the foolish, heretical, and profane ideas of today! It is a terrible shame this verse and its doctrine and repetition are ignored (6:65). AGAIN~It is the doctrine of total depravity, where any study of salvation must start.

It results in many false salvation ideas by not rightly seeing man depraved. It results in a weak view of salvation where man can choose to save himself. It results in confusing God’s mighty work of regeneration or quickening. It results in a presumptuous idea that man has a free will to be manipulated. It results in decisional salvation where man is pushed and pulled to choose. It results in ridiculous methods – the end justifies the means – for salvation. It results in false confidence in salvation by ignoring the role of good works. It results in missing God’s promise to regenerate His elect and convert them. It results in confounding the order of regeneration and conversion of sinners. It results in confidence in oneself or in man rather than in God’s free grace.

Free will? God’s will is free, but even He cannot will sinfully (Romans 9:14). The evident proof of depravity is repeated in light of ascension (6:62-65). If all are depraved and rebels against God, will any come to Christ and how? The differences among men are incredible, but they are not by innate ability. It is not that some men are born better than others by nature … but by grace.

"Except" the Father~...The impossibility of man ever believing on His Son is solved by God’s grace. Here the keyword is except~elsewhere it is the inspired disjunctive but (Romans 5:8; 6:17; I Corinthians 1:27; 3:7; Galatians 1:15; Ephesians 2:4; 2nd Thess.  2:13; Titus 3:4). God must intervene, because man’s inability is beyond his own help (6:44). God makes all the difference.... every bit of it ~and shall get all the praise.

Except, unless and until, a man is born again, he cannot see Christ (John 3:3,5). This explanation and condemnation of the audience is repeated (6:44, 65). The will of the flesh or will of man has no role, only the Spirit (John 1:13; 3:8). There is no need to find shades of difference between drawing and regeneration. Without regeneration, no drawing will work, even by the Spirit (Ist Corinthians 2:14). Jesus denied even the most dramatic events as having no value (Luke 16:31). Without God’s persuading operation, regeneration may give life without conversion (Galatians 1:15-16 cp Ist Timothy 1:12 cp Acts 9:6 cp Romans 11:28). There is a work of revelation that follows regeneration (Ephesians 1:17; 3:14-19). All glory to God the Father … giving us to Christ (6:37) … drawing us (6:44). We understand this to be the eternal phase and the vital phase of salvation. The effect of being drawn is to come to Christ and believe on Him (6:40,47) DRAWING = the free gift/POWER to comeper Jesus' very words:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:65"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
So, It is very plain drawing EQUALS the gift/power to come WILLINGLY! Which agrees perfectly with John 1:12,13!
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 16:52:54
John 6:45  It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 17:07:03
I provided an example.  You did not.   rofl

Here is an example of your humanistic reasoning:

Quote
Absolutely, soterion.

::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

+1

I would add a couple of thoughts here.  We are told that the reward the believer is eternal life and the reward of the unbeliever to condemnation.  We need to be careful of who we call and unbeliever.  If one has not heard the gospel, is that one and unbeliever?  I don't think so.

In John 5:28-29 Jesus said, "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

There are other passages that make similar statements.  I believe that just as there are differing levels of the resurrection of life in heaven, there are also different levels of judgement.  We all know friends or relatives who were not believers, but were basically good people.  I do not believe that God's judgement for them will be the same as one such as a Stalin, Hitler, or Mao Zedong who were and exhibited evil in the worst way.  That does not seem to me to be good judgement.  But maybe that is just me hoping for the best for some that I knew and loved who were not "believers".

Yes it is my humanistic reasoning.  And you can't rebut it except by your own humanistic reasoning. And by the way, if you disagree with my humanistic reasoning, then what do you think Jesus meant when He said, "But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you"(Mat 11:22), ?

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 17:30:43
God must intervene, because man’s inability is beyond his own help (6:44). God makes all the difference.... every bit of it ~and shall get all the praise.
Yes, of course, man can not save himself.  That is beyond his own ability.  But it is not beyond his own ability to believe the Gospel message and understand that God can save him and thus submit to the requirements and conditions that God as set forth in the Gospel message in order that God would save him.

As far as all the praise goes, I praise God that He "so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life", and I praise God that He gave us His written word that is "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" (2Ti_3:16) including the Gospel for which I praise Him because "it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Rom 1:16) , and I praise God that I am able to read, to understand and believe that really simple Gospel message.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 19:23:39
Rella:

    "You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
_____

    You will note that "draw him" cannot be translated "force him." This is your error, Rella. A man is drawn by the message of salvation, not forced.

Buff

@Reformer

No Buff.

I am not in error on this by any stretch because I never said anything about forcing anyone?

The verse that says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day" does not say God cast out a fishing net and pulled men in with no option. That is what forcing would do. Allowing no option, and we always have that.

I said

"Does this not clearly say that God draws those?  And that only those drawn will have the option to accept or reject Jesus?

I can easily see that the Gift of Jesus is only meant for those who God calls. But it is not a free gift. Acceptance in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, Repentance and Baptism are necessary for those who God calls.

In other words... you are paying your dues."

There is not one thing in what I said that could be misunderstood for forcing.

Sparking interest into a person so that person wants to  following up this "Christianity" stuff.... even if that person decides it is not for him.  But if he does he learns that according to the Holy Bible you must develop a faith... i e ... true belief in who Jesus was/is and what he did for us in shedding His blood, or it just will be a non starter . This is as the bare minimum of needed requirements but it is not something we are naturally born with.

We need be drawn by an interest in persueing this.

You said
Quote
    Apparently, God foreknew who would be saved, and these became His elect or chosen ones [Rom. 8:29-30]. Tell me, please—and consider this carefully: If God’s elect must accept the offer of salvation,

There is no must about it. (Everyone always has the ability to reject what they learn. The question is why they would want to do that.) 

Quote
If they must choose to be saved, salvation and eternal life are no longer free gifts but obligations. And if obligations, we work to achieve our salvation, the very opposite of what heaven teaches. “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation” [Rom. 4:4].

There is nothing free in this life.

The very simple reason for that is no person alive today, from the past or into the future deserves what the Father has offered up in His Son's death for us.

He gave us an offer.

If there were no conditions to be met, then simply said Jesus would never have needed to suffer for us.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 19:24:24
Rella, if I may reply to your post.

You asked about God drawing men unto him and how it is done. I think you can find your answer to that clearly answered in the bible.

Romans 10:12-18 (KJV)
12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

You are saved by hearing the word of God the gospel message and in that message is told how to respond. See the second chapter of Acts where the full gospel was preached and who God was adding to the Church. Its all there in the good book we just have to open our hearts to hear and believe what was recorded for us. The answer is there. We just have to trust and obey for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey.

@yogi bear

yogi bear,

You are reading things that I have not said or indicted.

I posted that verse because it seemed to be needed with what Buff was talking in his thread. However....

You say

"You asked about God drawing men unto him and how it is done."

I did not ask about how God would do this.

Ummmm.  I never ask how it is done simply because those I have heard from have their own individual stories.  I do not need to ask that, but perhaps you do? I have my own witness I can share about how it was done to me, but certainly do not want to bore anyone.

Quote
"You are saved by hearing the word of God the gospel message and in that message is told how to respond."

May I ask you what it was that I said that would indicate I need to know this explanation?

So much I could say to you but this is not the thread...and anyway,a long while back we tangled over this saving thing. Not just you and I but others as well. Not sure if you remember, but I do... and ........   nope, I best keep my mouth shut  ::eek::
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 19:24:55
Quote
Quote from: Rella on Yesterday at 11:48:08
You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary.

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.'


John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

@4WD

4WD,

Are you contradicting  or enhancing what I posted of John 6:44?
''No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.''

BTW...KJV words yours this way.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

(NOTE: I have generally been posting KJV simply because that is the one translation most all readers here are familiar with. I personally find fault with it... including John 12:32...but this is for another day)

I assume you were enhancing as yours does compliment mine, even though it can be argued that the meanings are not the same.

Can we agree that

John 12:32 simply means that  John using the the word  ''ALL" ....to mean all Jews AND Gentiles inclusively....ALL without DISTINCTION, not that he wants you to believe ALL without EXCEPTIONS for we KNOW  God DOES make exceptions among men. 

We are reminded that back in the OT, the word of God was LIMITED ONLY to the Jewish nation, now since the cross, God is visiting the Gentiles to take OUT OF them a people for his namesake.

This interpretation allows PERFECT flow from scriptures to scriptures, his teaching puts scriptures AGAINST scriptures.

It is worth noting, but not for discussion here, but in another thread....

Your John 12:32 compliments 1 Timothy 4:10 more then mine in a way.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Compare  John 12:32 with Jesus'  "will draw all people to myself"  and 1 Timothy 4:10  "Who is the Saviour of all men,"

Kind of actually says it.... doesn't it...that all will be saved, in the end?

Timothy does not tell us He is the Savior of those that believe... he says all.

And your John says Jesus will draw ALL people to Himself.  ::shrug::

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 02:52:03
Yes it is my humanistic reasoning.  And you can't rebut it except by your own humanistic reasoning. And by the way, if you disagree with my humanistic reasoning, then what do you think Jesus meant when He said, "But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you"(Mat 11:22), ?
Here I go again jumping into a post directed to another person, I need to break this bad habit that 4WD taught me~bad habits once learned are hard to get rid of.

When I saw you quoted Matthew 11:22, yesterday, I thought to myself ::pondering:: I quoted that earlier in the week and made a different application to it and now all I did was to stir up 4WD's memory about such verses, but that's okay.

It will be more tolerable for a certain individual, cites, and nations in the day of judgment than for others~that's one of the benefits for the gospel being preached for it does restain men's lustful evil passions, but it CANNOT regenerate evil wicked men, only the power of God can do so.

So, humanistic reasoning is not evil if that person is reasoning and coming to a position of truth based upon THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD~and he submits all of his thoughts to God's testimony of what IS THE TRUTH. No man should come testing God's testimony to see if it is in line of what he THINKS God should do "if he was God", which truly is the mother of all false doctrines and it's what many do say to say! Selah
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 03:24:23
Your John 12:32 compliments 1 Timothy 4:10 more then mine in a way.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Compare  John 12:32 with Jesus'  "will draw all people to myself"  and 1 Timothy 4:10  "Who is the Saviour of all men,"

Kind of actually says it.... doesn't it...that all will be saved, in the end?
Your post kinda reminded me of a movie I saw about 30 years ago called Ghost with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore and Whoopi Goldberg.  Whoopi Goldberg played Oda Mae Brown, an eccentric psychic, who Patrick Swayne took and clean up and used her eccentric psychic powers. When she went into the bank to withdraw the money she did not know when to stop talking! You did very well until you got down to speaking about  1st Timothy 4:10. Let me help just a little with this scripture~ it is not even talking about the same subject of John 12:32..... totally different. To get the true meaning of 1st Timothy 4:10 we need to follow the CONTEXT and let our MASTER~"Mr. Context" guide our understanding.
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 4:3-10~"Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
God is the Saviour of ALL MEN.....BUT, specially is He to believers! Saviour in these scriptures has reference to SUPPLYING our FOOD~and he did this by creating EVERY CREATURE to be our source of FOOD~regardless of certain wives fables from false prophets preaching that Christians should ABSTAIN from certain meats, etc. have to preach! God even supplies the needs of unbelievers but he ESPECIALLY does so to BELIEVERS who are the apple of His Holy eyes.

There~ that's the TRUE understanding of Paul's words from 1st Timothy 4:10....... that scriptures has nothing to do with SALVATION from sin and condemnation.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:08:46
It will be more tolerable for a certain individual, cites, and nations in the day of judgment than for others~that's one of the benefits for the gospel being preached for it does restain men's lustful evil passions, but it CANNOT regenerate evil wicked men, only the power of God can do so.
First, that was an answer back to the charge that the reward in heaven and the reward in hell will not be in relation to the person being rewarded.  In truth Neither heaven nor hell is a one-size-fits-all.  There will be various levels of reward in both heaven and hell.  At least that is what I believe from what little God has said about it.

Second, as it relates to regeneration, RB, no one that I know says that anyone other than God can regenerate evil wicked men.  So that is not the issue.  The question is which evil wicked men does God regenerate; how are those evil wicked men chosen.  Well, Jesus in Matthew 11:20-21, the verses just before the one about a more tolerable day of judgment, says  Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.   Therefore God's choice of who He regenerates is definitely dependent upon the person.  Regeneration and hence salvation are not independent of the person as you, Reformed Theology, and Calvinism demand; Regeneration and salvation are not unconditional.  Election is not unconditional.  Election is conditional.  Jesus says so. According to your teaching Jesus' denouncing the cities was inappropriate because if God had not regenerated them first, the might works that Jesus did would have led to their repenting.  But in fact Jesus did denounce them.  Jesus says that they would have repented.  That clearly represents repenting as a choice influenced by what they saw and heard.  Although it doesn't say so specifically, it most certainly presents repenting as a prerequisite to regeneration and hence salvation.  Such is the consistent message throughout the Bible, and specifically the NT.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:20:07
But in fact Jesus did denounce them.  Jesus says that they would have repented.  That clearly represents repenting as a choice influenced by what they saw and heard.  Although it doesn't say so specifically, it most certainly presents repenting as a prerequisite to regeneration and hence salvation.  Such is the consistent message throughout the Bible, and specifically the NT.
I'm leaving in two mintues~for now, let me say that you have a serious dilemma to deal with. and it is this:

"If your reasoning is correct then WHY DID NOT GOD DO MIGHTY WORKS in Sodom and other places if that INDEED could have been the means of them being born of God?"
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:24:35
Speaking about 1 Timothy 4:10 you said the following:
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Compare  John 12:32 with Jesus'  "will draw all people to myself"  and 1 Timothy 4:10  "Who is the Saviour of all men,"

Kind of actually says it.... doesn't it...that all will be saved, in the end?

Timothy does not tell us He is the Savior of those that believe... he says all.

And your John says Jesus will draw ALL people to Himself.  ::shrug::

Jesus is indeed the savior of all men.  But not all men will be saved, and that because not all men will believe and trust.  It is but one more indication that salvation is conditioned upon belief in God; it is not unconditional.

I would note here that believe and trust is the very definition of faith.  Faith is more that simple mental assent.  It is mental assent, i.e., believe, plus trust.  In Scripture that is typically presented as "believe in".
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:45:25
I'm leaving in two mintues~for now, let me say that you have a serious dilemma to deal with. and it is this:

"If your reasoning is correct then WHY DID NOT GOD DO MIGHTY WORKS in Sodom and other places if that INDEED could have been the means of them being born of God?"

That is no different than the serious dilemma that you have to deal with, and it is this:

"If your reasoning is correct then WHY DID NOT GOD ELECT THOSE in Sodom and other places if that INDEED could have been the means of them being born of God?"

But even more to the point, if it was necessary that God first ELECT THOSE in Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum in order that they would repent and be saved why did Jesus condemn them? According to you, the reason they didn't repent was because God didn't elect them.  Why would Jesus criticize and accuse them for something God didn't do?  Clearly in your soteriology since God had not first elected them, they were doing just as God created them to be and do.  In your soteriology, God imputed Adam's sin to them and had not chose, i.e., elected, them.  How else could they possibly have acted?  Again, since they were, by the very nature that God imputed, incapable of repenting, why would Jesus condemn them for it?
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 18:06:22
Saviour in these scriptures has reference to SUPPLYING our FOOD~and he did this by creating EVERY CREATURE to be our source of FOOD~regardless of certain wives fables from false prophets preaching that Christians should ABSTAIN from certain meats, etc. have to preach! God even supplies the needs of unbelievers but he ESPECIALLY does so to BELIEVERS who are the apple of His Holy eyes.



Red,

I totally disagree with this.

Quote
"Saviour in these scriptures has reference to SUPPLYING our FOOD~and he did this by creating EVERY CREATURE to be our source of FOOD~regardless of certain wives fables from false prophets preaching that Christians should ABSTAIN from certain meats, etc. have to preach! God even supplies the needs of unbelievers but he ESPECIALLY does so to BELIEVERS who are the apple of His Holy eyes. "

I read this chapter as an admonition against those who would depart from the faith and follow false gods and yes,even devils.

It is only in verse 3 that food even enters the conversation regarding the commands of false religions...

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

But is corrected in vs 4 and 5

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

It is verse 10 that  mentions the savior of all...

8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

But no matter how YOU wish to spin it this is NOT referencing food which God does supply to all.

Rather it is more in line with  God's will that none should perish but that all men should come to repentance and turn from their sin and be saved.

We know the Lord Jesus Christ came to die for the sins of the whole world - and not only for those who would one day trust Him as Saviour.

Jesus IS the Saviour of the whole world and He bore the sum total of all the accumulated sin of the entire human race upon His shoulders on Calvary's cross.

Jesus became accursed of God, so that whoever would look to Him for life would be saved.

Surly you CANNOT argue this?

Or

That God provided adequate provision for the salvation of every single man, woman and child, by faith and is the reason Paul, the actual author of 1 Timothy, can legitimately call the Lord Jesus Christ, “the Saviour of all men.'

Christ's death on the cross paid the redemption price for the sin of the whole of humanity - so that whosoever believes on Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

We understand that although the debt for mankind's sin has been paid in full, not everyone will receive God's amazing free gift of grace, for the forgiveness of sins

While everyman has the potential for salvation those who reject His free gift of grace.. by faith alone in Christ alone, will one day be fully and finally separated from God.

But the actual way it is written... which is in line with original Greek Interlinear,

For this for we toil and strive because we have hope on [the]God living who is [the] Savior of all men especially of believers

makes it sound like what I was hinting at.... God who is the Savior of all men, certainly makes it appear as if all will be saved... no matter,but a good example of why things can and will be misunderstood.[/size][/size]
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: johntwayne on Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 18:06:52
First, that was an answer back to the charge that the reward in heaven and the reward in hell will not be in relation to the person being rewarded.  In truth Neither heaven nor hell is a one-size-fits-all.  There will be various levels of reward in both heaven and hell.  At least that is what I believe from what little God has said about it.

Second, as it relates to regeneration, RB, no one that I know says that anyone other than God can regenerate evil wicked men.  So that is not the issue.  The question is which evil wicked men does God regenerate; how are those evil wicked men chosen.  Well, Jesus in Matthew 11:20-21, the verses just before the one about a more tolerable day of judgment, says  Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.   Therefore God's choice of who He regenerates is definitely dependent upon the person.  Regeneration and hence salvation are not independent of the person as you, Reformed Theology, and Calvinism demand; Regeneration and salvation are not unconditional.  Election is not unconditional.  Election is conditional.  Jesus says so. According to your teaching Jesus' denouncing the cities was inappropriate because if God had not regenerated them first, the might works that Jesus did would have led to their repenting.  But in fact Jesus did denounce them.  Jesus says that they would have repented.  That clearly represents repenting as a choice influenced by what they saw and heard.  Although it doesn't say so specifically, it most certainly presents repenting as a prerequisite to regeneration and hence salvation.  Such is the consistent message throughout the Bible, and specifically the NT.

Excellent Post
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 04:59:50
Red, I totally disagree with this.
It does not surprise me.
Quote from: Rella
« on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
I read this chapter as an admonition against those who would depart from the faith and follow false gods and yes,even devils.
You cannot assume that the whole chapter is addressing those who depart from the faith by teaching doctrines of devils when that only takes up a few words~then after Paul mentioned that he proves why he said that such people were giving heed to seducing spirits~ and once he proves this he moves on to proves that ALL CREATURES are good for food and were created for ALL MEN"S survival and health....but especially his God the saviour of those that believe~then he exhorts Timothy about the means of saving himself and those that hears him~saving himself in a practical sense of course from such people who depart from the faith!
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
But no matter how YOU wish to spin it this is NOT referencing food which God does supply to all.
I do not desire and neither do I have to put a spin on these scriptures, I do something you have not yet learn to do and that is let God be his own interpreter of his word~and that I do by distinctly reading the context and then I give the sense that alone allows those that hear me stand what they are reading if they truly desire to do so. Savior in 1st Timothy 4:10 is NOT speaking of salvation from sin and condemnation~you cannot even force that sense in these scriptures, even if you try to do so~it would not work~it would be like trying to attempt to put a camel through an eye of a needle~it is not going to fit.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
Rather it is more in line with  God's will that none should perish but that all men should come to repentance and turn from their sin and be saved.
Well, if you are going to quote from God's word, then please, quote it correctly.
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 3:9~"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
The only connection between 1st Timothy 4:10 and this verse would be this: " specially of those that believe and that God is longsuffering to US-WARD "~God is the Savior of ALL MEN'S natural life by providing for our daily need of food and drink~but specially so to his own~in 2nd Peter 3:9 the reason given for Christ not returning is that God is longsuffering to USWARD~his chosen seed, not willing that any of them to perish and they WILL NOT!
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
Jesus IS the Saviour of the whole world and He bore the sum total of all the accumulated sin of the entire human race upon His shoulders on Calvary's cross. Jesus became accursed of God, so that whoever would look to Him for life would be saved. Surly you CANNOT argue this
God's word said that doctrine is a doctrine of devils! Jesus Christ came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins~He did take away the sins of the world meaning JEWS and GENTILES not just for the Jews, yet the world is not his people, only the children of God's promise are the very elect. Salvation from sin and condemnation was SECURED by two immutable acts of God~HIS HOLY OATH and HIS HOLY PROMISES~out works have not one thing to do with securing our right to eternal life, that doctrine is from the pits of hell. THis could take pages which it may yet come to this but for now let me ask you a question:

" What does DOUBLE JEOPARDY mean to you? " The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. The relevant part of the Fifth Amendment states, "No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . . . "

This is man's law~do you not think that God's laws are MORE RIGHTEOUS than man's? They certainly are! If Jesus, as you think, died for every single person of Adam's sinful race, then the JUSTICE of GOD must aqquit and set them FREE from the condemnation of God's broken law. God would be UNJUST to punish TWICE for the same crimes/sins~the ONLY reason why sinners are forgiven is that Christ died for THAT SINNER, and paid IN FULL his sin debt.

I use this point because it makes a quick point without spending a lot of time PROVING just how corrupt anyone's doctrine is if they believe that Christ paid the sin debt for every single person.
Quote from: Luke and Jesus
Luke 19:5-9~"And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
A TRUE son by God's election, any other sense would make NO SENSE biblical speaking.

Maybe more later.

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 07:49:13
Red,

I totally disagree with this.
And you are right to do so.  So much of what RB posted is wrong.  It is based upon the false Calvinistic teaching. Nearly everything about salvation is turned on its head in that teaching, especially as it relates to who receives it and how he receives it. 
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 09:26:14


I use this point because it makes a quick point without spending a lot of time PROVING just how corrupt anyone's doctrine is if they believe that Christ paid the sin debt for every single person. A TRUE son by God's election, any other sense would make NO SENSE biblical speaking.




Until I have the time to respond to your response in more depth... I will briefly comment on this statement of yours.

Hebrews 2: 9 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 John 22 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


It would appear that you either cherry pick what you want to use to make your point from the Bible OR you believe that not all of God's Holy Words are applicable to all. ( ie you)

Fact is ....Jesus died for everyone..... but the caveat is, not everyone that Jesus died for will be saved.

NO, I do not expect you to understand this. Therefore I will not waste time with explanation.


Until I return.... I rest my case. ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 09:57:03
NO, I do not expect you to understand this. Therefore I will not waste time with explanation.
Pretty sure I understand it much better than you do and can reconcile any scriptures that you may present to me that you think may give your gospel some support.
Quote
It would appear that you either cherry pick what you want to use to make your point from the Bible OR you believe that not all of God's Holy Words are applicable to all. ( ie you)
Cherry picking? I have never pick cherries in my life, but DO like The Original Maraschino Cherries in my cocktails ::yummy:: Probably have two or three later on today.

All kidding aside~I would never treat the word of God so disrespectful by cherry-picking my favorites and purposely overlooking others....NEVER, God is my witness!   That is so toward any doctrine~GOD FORBID. But, please, by all means, give your understanding of the two scripture you quoted for the learning of others. Maybe you can shed some light on them, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Btw, those scriptures are easily interpreted BY THE SCRIPTURES themselves. Need help?
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 09:26:14

Until I return.... I rest my case.
If I was a lawyer on other side of the bench trying a case and heard the opposing Lawyer said: "I rest my case"...and he presented no more than what you have~I would say THANK YOU LORD for making this so easy for me to deal with and expose!  ::pray::
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Sun Aug 30, 2020 - 19:21:09
Well try this on...But I know you have claimed victory before I even set a finger to type things.
Quote
Quote from: Rella
Quote
« on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
I read this chapter as an admonition against those who would depart from the faith and follow false gods and yes,even devils.
You cannot assume that the whole chapter is addressing those who depart from the faith by teaching doctrines of devils when that only takes up a few words~then after Paul mentioned that he proves why he said that such people were giving heed to seducing spirits~ and once he proves this he moves on to proves that ALL CREATURES are good for food and were created for ALL MEN"S survival and health....but especially his God the saviour of those that believe~then he exhorts Timothy about the means of saving himself and those that hears him~saving himself in a practical sense of course from such people who depart from the faith!

First, Paul is not simply telling Timothy about saving himself and those that hear him from those that would seduce them away from the faith.

It does not just take up a few words. The concept of those who might be seduced away is covered within the first 5 verses, a hair shy of 1/3of the total. Yes, it says some, but does not go into who those some might be.... but furthers sets up that every creature OF GOD is Good.

A setting up, as it were regarding those who may be seduce away from the proper faith and those who may need to be encouraged back into it.

We quickly see in the next 6  verses, which is an additional 1/3 approximately of the 16 the instruction to "instruct" the brethern, which I interpret to mean all the brethren are to be instructed in the words of faith and of the good doctrine .... and that  godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

In other words... it is imperative to teach those who may be leaning to departing as well as those who are firm in their faith

And that makes 2/3 of this chapter a solid chapter  addressing those who may depart from the faith by teaching doctrines of devils AND the eed for teaching/instruction.

In a way I see this, but you will not,  as a form of "free will." Case presented for God by Timothy, but some will heed that seductive voice
of evil.

We close this chapter with the final 4verses, a bare 25% of the 16 verses with the

Timothy is to set an example. He is told"Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine." and "Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you."

Not that this means every one who hears him will be saved but those who hear and understand will.The others are those this chapter is about.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
But no matter how YOU wish to spin it this is NOT referencing food which God does supply to all.

I do not desire and neither do I have to put a spin on these scriptures, I do something you have not yet learn to do and that is let God be his own interpreter of his word~and that I do by distinctly reading the context and then I give the sense that alone allows those that hear me stand what they are reading if they truly desire to do so.

Yes, I see how well that works for you. Others whom you debate with do as you do.
Why is it then that God is supplying different information to different people?
When you are the only one to see and understand what you believe, then you need to ask if you are receiving God properly.

Quote
Savior in 1st Timothy 4:10 is NOT speaking of salvation from sin and condemnation~you cannot even force that sense in these scriptures, even if you try to do so~it would not work~it would be like trying to attempt to put a camel through an eye of a needle~it is not going to fit.

Spin or no spin this is a statement of truth truly stated ,we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men,

Not of salvation of all but you know that and I am beating a dead horse because you know that I know that also

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22

Rather it is more in line with  God's will that none should perish but that all men should come to repentance and turn from their sin and be saved.
Well, if you are going to quote from God's word, then please, quote it correctly.

Why when I have you to do it for me?



Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22

Jesus IS the Saviour of the whole world and He bore the sum total of all the accumulated sin of the entire human race upon His shoulders on Calvary's cross. Jesus became accursed of God, so that whoever would look to Him for life would be saved. Surly you CANNOT argue this

God's word said that doctrine is a doctrine of devils! Jesus Christ came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins~



So the following scriptures are from the devil?

Then Paul,in 2 Timothy 3:16 was in error when he said
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

As well as....

You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in

1John 2:2 
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29
 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:29
 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Isaiah 53:6
 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Corinthians 5:14
 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

John 12:32
 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You best include what your chosen translationsays about Easter in Acts 12:4 ::doh::

Quit cherry picking.


Quote
He did take away the sins of the world meaning JEWS and GENTILES not just for the Jews, yet the world is not his people, only the children of God's promise are the very elect. Salvation from sin and condemnation was SECURED by two immutable acts of God~HIS HOLY OATH and HIS HOLY PROMISES~out works have not one thing to do with securing our right to eternal life, that doctrine is from the pits of hell.

Finally you are almost making some sense.


Quote
THis could take pages which it may yet come to this but for now let me ask you a question:

" What does DOUBLE JEOPARDY mean to you? " The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. The relevant part of the Fifth Amendment states, "No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . . . "

This is man's law~do you not think that God's laws are MORE RIGHTEOUS than man's? They certainly are! If Jesus, as you think, died for every single person of Adam's sinful race, then the JUSTICE of GOD must aqquit and set them FREE from the condemnation of God's broken law.

No way. And I did not say that.

Quote
If God did that then Ephesians 8 ...For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 God would be UNJUST to punish TWICE for the same crimes/sins~the ONLY reason why sinners are forgiven is that Christ died for THAT SINNER, and paid IN FULL his sin debt.

I use this point because it makes a quick point without spending a lot of time PROVING just how corrupt anyone's doctrine is if they believe that Christ paid the sin debt for every single person.

Who said that? I never said that. You are misunderstanding what I said.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 04:27:29
Well try this on...
I did, and it does not fit, and the colors do not match, and, besides, the "tailor" looks like she was drunk on something.

Your post was all over the place making very little biblical sense. Nevertheless, I will comment on a few things.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
First, Paul is not simply telling Timothy about saving himself and those that hear him from those that would seduce them away from the faith. It does not just take up a few words. The concept of those who might be seduced away is covered within the first 5 verses, a hair shy of 1/3of the total. Yes, it says some, but does not go into who those some might be..
"Not simply"~never used those words, yet, Paul did use the about 1/3 of 1st Timothy 4 to exhort Timothy concerning his calling, duties to that calling~ how to be profitable doing so and by doing so the profit that comes from it. 
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 4:12-16~"Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee."
A man of God fulfilling his calling per Paul's outline here to Timothy, will result in saving BOTH himself and his hearers~saving NOT in a sense from sin and condemnation, but strictly in a sense of enjoying God's best for them while living in this world; saving them from God chastening hand per Hebrews 12; saving in the sense of falling into false doctrines of devils; etc etc. etc.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
The concept of those who might be seduced away is covered within the first 5 verses
Well, it is also here "if" one understand how to rightly divide the word of God. If a child of God does not take heed to himself in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity and does not give attendance to reading, to exhortation, prayer and doctrine, then that is like a city without walls, sooner of later they shall be overcome by the devil~even though they can and may recover~ THEY SHALL FALL for sure!
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
In a way I see this, but you will not,  as a form of "free will." Case presented for God by Timothy, but some will heed that seductive voiceof evil.
Children of God HAVE A FREE WILL~in their NEW MAN, the old man Adam is NOT FREE, but is in bondage to the devil himself, sin and the world's lusts that works FREELY in his members~VERY DECEITFULLY I might add.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
Spin or no spin this is a statement of truth truly stated ,we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
The only scriptural sense that God is the Saviour of all men is speaking about PROVIDING for their daily. needs and they are not a few, but many. But Paul ads especially for them that believe. helping us to UNDERSTAND in which sense God is the Saviour of all men. Do all men the sun to shine, rain from heaven, air to breathe, etc.~ Yes, they do. Do we need to eat? Do we need witty inventions to keep living? God PROVIDES for ALL, even though few lift their heads to heaven with thanksgiving and love in their hearts for such a great and merciful God.

I'll come back and look at those scriptures that you think will corroborate your understanding.
Quote from: Rella
You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in 1John 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I do not discount them~ I read the precious word of God DISTINCTLY and THEN give the sense......... something you have never learn as of yet, and your time is running out.  Maybe....  ::pickinguprock:: 

Later.....
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 06:26:35
Quote
I use this point because it makes a quick point without spending a lot of time PROVING just how corrupt anyone's doctrine is if they believe that Christ paid the sin debt for every single person.

Anyone making such a statement as that just can not read and comprehend what the good word says.

Rella, Already rebuked such a statement above with several verses showing the falsehood of this statement.  Let me repeat it for you.

You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in

1John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29
 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:29
 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Isaiah 53:6
 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Corinthians 5:14
 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

John 12:32
 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
 
Jesus is calling all men through the gospel of Christ and God wants all men to accept and not perish but we know that will not be the case. Jesus died for all men not just some but all and calls all unto him.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Luke 13:3 (KJV)
3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives. The bible could not be more clear. It is its main message. It is the Gospel of Christ.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 07:26:26
Very good, yogi.

::thumbup::  ::thumbup::
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 07:33:29
I do not discount them~ I read the precious word of God DISTINCTLY and THEN give the sense.........
RB, it seems to me that nearly every time you "read the precious word of God DISTINCTLY and THEN give the sense.........", the sense you give those precious words of God flies in the face of what those precious words of God DISTINCTLY say and mean.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 10:00:42
Anyone making such a statement as that just can not read and comprehend what the good word says.

Rella, Already rebuked such a statement above with several verses showing the falsehood of this statement.  Let me repeat it for you.

You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in

1John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Greetings Yogi, I would love to debate this subject with you~the problem with that is every time I try to get you to do so, you jump ship under the color of darkness...you just slip away into the night and show up a few months later. Let us see if you are willing to stay around this time and consider these scriptures that you posted.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
1st John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This scripture is not hard to understand in light of other scriptures that it truly amazes me that anyone would attempt to use 1st John 2:2 to disprove Christ's particular redemption for his people.

The apostles were sent to the circumcision while Paul and others were sent to the uncircumcision.
Quote from: Paul, a minister to the UNCIRCUMCISION
Galatians 2:7-9~"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
John writing to the circumcision is telling them That Jesus was not only the propitiation for their sin (to those he was writing to, NOT to ALL of the Jews, just to those who were the children of God's promises among the Jews) but that he is for the whole world~meaning without DISTINCTION, not the whole world without EXCEPTION for we KNOW God makes an exception among BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
Quote from: James, Jude's brother
Acts 15:14~"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name."
1st John 2;2 does NOT give any support to universal atonement for all without an exception~that position will end up putting scriptures against scriptures. 1st Corinthians chapter one is a classic example, etc.

Later we shall consider some more of the ones you and Rella posted. I will look at all of them IF you and others will consider some on the ones I have for you.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 10:41:06
Red, I do not debate with you because it does no one any good. We have been over this many a time and one of us can not see the truth. I just try to point out some very clear miss use of words as you said Jesus DB&R was not for every man but the word clearly says it is that is the Gospel of Christ. I do not plan to go down your rabbit trail again I will stand by what I posted.

Two points I want to make.

1. There is only one Gospel of Christ. It is the same for the Jew and the gentile. Just because Peter delivered it to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles does not change one thing in the Gospel of Christ. They both preached the same gospel.

2. You said "1st John 2;2 does NOT give any support to universal atonement for all without an exception" this I agree. The exception is free will. The atonement is for all that will accept. The gospel call is sent to all men but not all will accept.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 12:06:03
Anyone making such a statement as that just can not read and comprehend what the good word says.

Rella, Already rebuked such a statement above with several verses showing the falsehood of this statement.  Let me repeat it for you.

You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in

1John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29
 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:29
 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Isaiah 53:6
 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Corinthians 5:14
 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

John 12:32
 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
 
Jesus is calling all men through the gospel of Christ and God wants all men to accept and not perish but we know that will not be the case. Jesus died for all men not just some but all and calls all unto him.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Luke 13:3 (KJV)
3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives. The bible could not be more clear. It is its main message. It is the Gospel of Christ.

Thanks for supplying additional scriptures to mine.

This

"Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives."

is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC. ::tippinghat::

It truly says it all.

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 12:53:37

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on Yesterday at 19:21:09



Well try this on...
I did, and it does not fit, and the colors do not match, and, besides, the "tailor" looks like she was drunk on something.

The only thing I get drunk on is the guidance I receive when I am in God's Holy Word and being guided to understanding with clarity.

It was not I who was smacking my lips for cherries in my afternoon cocktails
.

.Cherry picking? I have never pick cherries in my life, but DO like The Original Maraschino Cherries in my cocktails ::yummy:: Probably have two or three later on today.



That might explain why your  comprehension is questionable at times.


Quote
Your post was all over the place making very little biblical sense. Nevertheless, I will comment on a few things.

Funny you say it was all over the place. I copied your reply and ran down through it in the order you posted it,just leaving out nonsensical items deserving no comment.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
The concept of those who might be seduced away is covered within the first 5 verses
Well, it is also here "if" one understand how to rightly divide the word of God.

You need to look into a mirror.
Quote

Quote
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
Spin or no spin this is a statement of truth truly stated ,we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men,

The only scriptural sense that God is the Saviour of all men is speaking about PROVIDING for their daily. needs and they are not a few, but many.( say what?)  But Paul ads especially for them that believe. helping us to UNDERSTAND in which sense God is the Saviour of all men. Do all men the sun to shine, rain from heaven, air to breathe, etc.~ Yes, they do. Do we need to eat? Do we need witty inventions to keep living? God PROVIDES for ALL, even though few lift their heads to heaven with thanksgiving and love in their hearts for such a great and merciful God.

Tell this to those in the breadlines these days. Tell this to those living in the Appalachians. Tell this who live in the bad parts of town and across the tracks.
Tell this to those women who of necessity make a living on their backs....
Tell this to those who are living below the poverty level in the US...
Tell this to those women who are beaten so badly and thrown down a flight of stairs.
Tell this to the homeless. Tell this to the woman whose husband just walked out one day not even leaving her with money for a loaf of bread for the kids.
And on and on and on....

YOU ARE SO WRONG on this one, it makes me want to.... Well, use your imagination
.


Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella
You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in 1John 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I do not discount them~ I read the precious word of God DISTINCTLY and THEN give the sense.........

And oh so proudly you would never admit to being wrong. So many times
you have pointed out you do not ever look back to older texts because your mind gathers from what was written in 1611. And from that you feel you cannot make a mistake.


Quote
something you have never learn as of yet,

I have learned when something does not seem right I seek and I find. And I have learned that I let God direct me to my beliefs and understanding which he gives to me differently then to you, obviously.

Tell me:

Do you see anything wrong in this verse from John 12:32?King JamesVersion
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ?[/size]

Quote
and your time is running out.  Maybe....  ::pickinguprock::

You wish
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 13:51:16
Tell this to those in the breadlines these days. Tell this to those living in the Appalachians. Tell this who live in the bad parts of town and across the tracks.
Tell this to those women who of necessity make a living on their backs....
Tell this to those who are living below the poverty level in the US...
Tell this to those women who are beaten so badly and thrown down a flight of stairs.
Tell this to the homeless. Tell this to the woman whose husband just walked out one day not even leaving her with money for a loaf of bread for the kids.
And on and on and on....

YOU ARE SO WRONG on this one, it makes me want to.... Well, use your imagination.
I'm not going to waste time with fools, and I could bury you with scriptures that most likely you have never read nor consider, but I will refrain from so doing so.
Quote from: David knew that God provides for all~man and beast of the fields.
Psalm 145:15,16~The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season. Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
They neither sow nor gather into barns yet they continue to live unto this very day in multitudes.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 6:26~"Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
The only person wrong on this is the one who does not believe the scripture~btw, most homeless folks are those who refuse to get with the program and some too lazy to work~homeless in America is nearly inexcusable, there may be a rare, very rare case where it is not. Regardless it still does not take away that God has richly provided for our needs, our part is to ARISE, KILL, AND EAT, which some are too lazy to do!

 
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 14:07:54
Thanks for supplying additional scriptures to mine.

This

"Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives."

is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC. ::tippinghat::

It truly says it all.
This post shows more your ignorance than a person that has understanding.  Maybe I need to address this which Yogi posted:
Quote
Luke 13:3 (KJV)
3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives. The bible could not be more clear. It is its main message. It is the Gospel of Christ.
The gospel according to Yogi INCLUDES water baptism for the remission of your sins.

Now let me ask you~"would you also agree is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC? Or, are going to leave his amen corner and go and find a church that agrees more like you do? Actually you should just stay put, for you both have a gospel that is based on works and not grace.

I'll address all of his scriptures and not pass over one of them~but so far NO ONE has even addressed this:
Quote from: RB on: Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 04:59:50

" What does DOUBLE JEOPARDY mean to you? " The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. The relevant part of the Fifth Amendment states, "No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . . . "

This is man's law~do you not think that God's laws are MORE RIGHTEOUS than man's? They certainly are! If Jesus, as you think, died for every single person of Adam's sinful race, then the JUSTICE of GOD must aqquit and set them FREE from the condemnation of God's broken law. God would be UNJUST to punish TWICE for the same crimes/sins~the ONLY reason why sinners are forgiven is that Christ died for THAT SINNER, and paid IN FULL his sin debt.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 14:26:17
Quote
" What does DOUBLE JEOPARDY mean to you? " The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. The relevant part of the Fifth Amendment states, "No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . . . "

This is man's law~do you not think that God's laws are MORE RIGHTEOUS than man's? They certainly are! If Jesus, as you think, died for every single person of Adam's sinful race, then the JUSTICE of GOD must aqquit and set them FREE from the condemnation of God's broken law. God would be UNJUST to punish TWICE for the same crimes/sins~the ONLY reason why sinners are forgiven is that Christ died for THAT SINNER, and paid IN FULL his sin debt.

Red, you are missing the point. The DB&R is offered to all but not one will receive the gift unless they repent and obey the Gospel of Christ.

Not one is being punished twice but refuse to be rescued from the punishment. The gift is offered one must accept. Only then is one not punished.

We all know salvation is not universal but conditional it is the condition we can't agree upon.

Red, it is recorded in Acts 2 as to how one is saved and God adds those being saved to the church.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 14:33:37
1. There is only one Gospel of Christ. It is the same for the Jew and the gentile. Just because Peter delivered it to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles does not change one thing in the Gospel of Christ. They both preached the same gospel.

2. You said "1st John 2;2 does NOT give any support to universal atonement for all without an exception" this I agree. The exception is free will. The atonement is for all that will accept. The gospel call is sent to all men but not all will accept.
Yogi, without question you ar every sincere in what you have been taught, the problem is you have been taught wrong.

I KNOW that there is only one gospel~and it is the same for all~Paul and the apostles preach CHRIST, and that the righteousness of God by which sinners are FREELY JUSTIFIED was secured by Jesus Christ's obedience, not ours~yet their writings were sent to the very ones they went unto~ so, knowing that to be so, they would use words that WE MUST READ AND give them their proper sense~just as I did above~that would be handling the word of God in the way in which it was intended to be understood.
Quote from: Yogi on: Today at 10:41:06
2. You said "1st John 2;2 does NOT give any support to universal atonement for all without an exception" this I agree. The exception is free will.
You need to better explain what you meant by that before I can respond. Before you do, let it be said form the scriptures that man's ha snot one thing to do with him being born of God.
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John 1:13~Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
These words are so clear~ they need no explaining..... John removes BOTH the will of the flesh and the will of a preacher from the new birth~leaving ONLY God present when a man is born again! Salvation is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth (worketh) BUT OF GOD that wills to show mercy.

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 14:39:21
Red, it is recorded in Acts 2 as to how one is saved and God adds those being saved to the church.
Yogi, I LOVE your sincerity, I TRULY DO, just reject your understanding. That being said, would you mind sharing the pulpit with Rella as we discuss Acts 2? This should be really interesting... ::swordfight:: 
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 15:10:55
Quote
Quote

    John 1:13~Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

These words are so clear~ they need no explaining..... John removes BOTH the will of the flesh and the will of a preacher from the new birth~leaving ONLY God present when a man is born again! Salvation is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth (worketh) BUT OF GOD that wills to show mercy.

If you do not strip that verse out of context you could see that it is referring to Jesus as the word and yes man is born of God receives his word.

John 1:1-14 (KJV)
1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2  The same was in the beginning with God.
3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6  There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8  He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 16:18:28
Since I am a fool to you, feel free to not read further.

Quote
I'm not going to waste time with fools, and I could bury you with scriptures that most likely you have never read nor consider, but I will refrain from so doing so.



This

"Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives."

is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC.
::tippinghat::

It truly says it all.

Quote
This post shows more your ignorance than a person that has understanding.  Maybe I need to address this which Yogi posted:
Quote
Luke 13:3 (KJV)
3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Quote
Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives. The bible could not be more clear. It is its main message. It is the Gospel of Christ.
The gospel according to Yogi INCLUDES water baptism for the remission of your sins
.

Quote
Now let me ask you~"would you also agree is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC? Or, are going to leave his amen corner and go and find a church that agrees more like you do? Actually you should just stay put, for you both have a gospel that is based on works and not grace
.[/quote]

I KNOW, as much as  you do exactly who in this forum is in the baptize to be saved mode.

I also know who, inclusive of you believes once you believe you need to be baptised.

OH excuse me... I did not phrase that so YOU can understand. But you know what you believe so dont bother correcting me, cause I do too.

There IS NOT one thing wrong in that statement of Yogi's.


You quote this

Quote
Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Be baptized to receive the Holy Ghost....

This is not Mark16:16 or even 1Peter 3:21

It applies to every single person

IT DOES NOT SAY ANYONE IS SAVED.

We are told... we are all told why Jesus was crucified and shed his blood. But we have to accept this or we are lost eternally.

Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives.

Do you think Jesus died only for those already saved? Wouldn't that have been silly in light of the fact that those who embraced Christ, while he was alive, were already assured of their eternal heavenly home.

Jesus did need to die  for them. Jesus' death  was part of a divine plan to save humanity. The death and resurrection of this one man is at the very heart of the Christian faith. For Christians it is through Jesus's death that people's broken relationship with God is restored. This is known as the Atonement.

Do I have to explain atonement to you?
To atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God.

Jesus was the only one capable of carrying out the "Atonement"' for all mankind.

But that in itself was not enough. Man had to come to Jesus in belief and acceptance of what He had done for him.

There is nothing Yogi said that is wrong. It is spot on.



Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Texas Conservative on Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 19:29:14
Since I am a fool to you, feel free to not read further.



This

"Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives."

is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC.
::tippinghat::

It truly says it all.
.
.

I KNOW, as much as  you do exactly who in this forum is in the baptize to be saved mode.

I also know who, inclusive of you believes once you believe you need to be baptised.

OH excuse me... I did not phrase that so YOU can understand. But you know what you believe so dont bother correcting me, cause I do too.

There IS NOT one thing wrong in that statement of Yogi's.


You quote this

Be baptized to receive the Holy Ghost....

This is not Mark16:16 or even 1Peter 3:21

It applies to every single person

IT DOES NOT SAY ANYONE IS SAVED.

We are told... we are all told why Jesus was crucified and shed his blood. But we have to accept this or we are lost eternally.

Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives.

Do you think Jesus died only for those already saved? Wouldn't that have been silly in light of the fact that those who embraced Christ, while he was alive, were already assured of their eternal heavenly home.

Jesus did need to die  for them. Jesus' death  was part of a divine plan to save humanity. The death and resurrection of this one man is at the very heart of the Christian faith. For Christians it is through Jesus's death that people's broken relationship with God is restored. This is known as the Atonement.

Do I have to explain atonement to you?
To atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God.

Jesus was the only one capable of carrying out the "Atonement"' for all mankind.

But that in itself was not enough. Man had to come to Jesus in belief and acceptance of what He had done for him.

There is nothing Yogi said that is wrong. It is spot on.


There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance.  A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.  A planet of playthings, we dance on the strings, of powers we cannot percieve.  The stars aren't aligned, or the gods are malign, blame is better to give than recieve.

You can choose a ready guide, in some celestial voice.  If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.  You can choose from phantom fears, and kindness that can kill.  I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose free will.   ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 03:56:42
Do I have to explain atonement to you?
You have not even as of yet, explain anything that is according to God's testimony of his truth. The more you talk, you are only showing how little you understand.
Quote
"Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives." is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC
You making that statement and God's word agreeing with it are world's apart. The truth is this: "God created Adam and Eve in his image WITH A FREE WILL to continue in the state in which he created them~and then placed then in a perfect world giving them every conceivable opportunity to love and serve him, giving them only one simple commandment to keep, and we know the story, do we not? The only thing God did not do for them was to secured them in the state in which he created them as he did some angels, some he did not.

The TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ is that God sent his Son into the world to secured eternal life for his chosen seed~under the new covenant God's people are PROMISED eternal life by God's holy OATH which cannot fail but will come to pass~for the new covenant is founded on these two immutable acts of God. Which was not promised under the covenant of works given to Adam and renew in further light to the children of Israel.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 6:13-19~"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;"
My hope of eternal life is NOT by my works in the least, why should I believe that lie when Adam could not earn eternal life by his obedience in a flesh that was created after God's image in wisdom, knowledge and true holiness? I'm very thankful for the NEW COVENANT of pure grace that secured by right to eternal life THROUGH GOD'S FAITHFULNESS in keeping his promises of grace! David dedicated a whole Psalm in singing about God's faithfulness in the New Covenant made with Jesus Christ as its HEAD. READ Psalm 89 and consider why David was singing of God's FAITHFULNESS, never about his free will in receiving the blessing of eternal life~that's another gospel.

Read Galatians four and there see God's holy oath at work in the birth of Isaac~and consider that we just like Isaac are children of God's PROMISES, not children who earn salvation through their free will!

You have Galatians four in your bible prove what I'm saying is not according to God's truth. You have Psalm 89 in your bible prove that it is not saying what I just said that it does.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 04:34:14
If you do not strip that verse out of context you could see that it is referring to Jesus as the word and yes man is born of God receives his word.
Yogi, I did not strip John 1:13 out of its context, I actually was laboring to keep my post short, so as not to wear out those that read everything as I do.
Quote from: Yogi  on: Yesterday at 15:10:55
"you could see that it is referring to Jesus as the word and yes man is born of God receives his word"
No, I truly do not see where it is said Jesus is the Word, I DO see where it said that the Word WAS GOD, not Jesus! Jesus is the Son of God born two thousand years ago, he was NOT in the beginning with God as the Son of God, (ONLY IN HIS DIVINE NATURE BEING GOD...period! )  Now we DO agree that Jesus was a complex person~fully God, and fully man born of a virgin woman named Mary.

Nevertheless, let us get to the subject of our conversation, you quoted:
Quote
John 1:1-14 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man ( JEWS AND GENTILES~RB ) that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Yogi, my friend, I love these scriptures and by following the context it only serve my position MUCH BETTER!

Consider the flow of John's words: "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not"~never a man spake as Jesus spake, never a man lived so righteously as he lived, yet men IN DARKNESS could not comprehend when LEFT to themselves!

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.In his divine nature AS GOD, he created all things, yet when he came into the world, the world DID NOT KNOW HIM and even hated him for no reason OTHER than for the TRUTH he preached and lived!

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.He came unto the Jewish nation and they killed him for no other reason than for his love for God and God's testimony of THE TRUTH.
Quote from: John
John 1:12,13~"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12 EXPLAINS the reason why some DID receive him while other men did not! The POWER or RIGHt was given TO THEM! John 1:13 is a COMMENTARY on verse 12! The flow of the context IS what guides our understanding of not only here in John chapter one, but in all scriptures. Man's so-called free will is denied in John 1:13 by the word of God! I'll go with God, it would be unwise and wicked to do otherwise.



Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 06:20:01
Quote
The Sinner vs. Free Will And Capability
The human will should be studied consecutively, in its four stages: innocence, fallen, grace, and glory in order to fully understand man's will.

God created man upright and declared him very good in the Garden of Eden with a free will. God declared man very good (Genesis 1:31), and Adam willed to obey God (Genesis 2:19; 3:8).

God’s inspired revelation declares that man was created upright, but he has fallen. To keep this short only references will be provided. (Ecclesiastes 7:29). Adam’s death the day he ate in rebellion was the death of his free will (Genesis 2:17 cp 5:5).Read of his fear that caused him to hide from God’s presence in the Garden (Genesis 3:8-10). We can read of the proud and unrepentant attitude that blamed Eve for his sin (Genesis 3:12). In Eden, Adam was created with a will free to choose righteousness or to choose sin.

When man fell and died in that day, his will died as to any affectionate desire toward God. Dead in trespasses and sins, man is only subject to Satan’s will (Ephesians 2:1-3 cp 2nd Timothy 2:26). He has no understanding or fear of God and will not seek Him (Romans 3:9-18). He has no place in his heart for God’s word or understanding of it (John 8:43,47). His heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). Due to the pride of his fallen nature, man will not seek or think about God (Psalm 10:4). Fallen man will not come to Christ, since he hates the light (John 3:19-21; 5:40). This is true of all men per Romans 3.

Since he hates God and His things, man cannot obey or please God (Romans 8:7-8). His mind is so corrupt and void of virtue, he cannot receive God (Ist Corinthians 2:14). His will is so perverted against right thinking that he will worship trees (Isaiah 44:9-20). As fallen, man’s will is bound to sin, but free from righteousness (Romans 6:16-20). No matter how much influence is applied, man’s will is corrupt (Isaiah 26:10; Luke 16:31). That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and there is no desire toward spiritual things at all~a strong enmity against God per God's own testimony who knows the hearts of all men BETTER than they know themselves!

When man is regenerated and quickened by grace, his will is restored to Adam’s state. God’s people become willing in the day of His power (Psalm 110:3 cp Philippians 2:13). We strive here with a willing spirit and an unwilling flesh (Matthew 26:41 cp Romans 7:18-25). God does not allow events where our will cannot choose righteousness (Ist Corinthians 10:13). After regeneration, man has two spirits, which choose righteousness or sin, respectively. In this state, man is free to righteousness or sin by exploiting either spirit by his will. Even after we are born again, we have total warfare between the flesh and spirit (Galatians 5:17).

When man is glorified in heaven, his will shall be made perfectly holy in its affections. The resurrection shall free us finally from the corruption of the flesh (Romans 8:19-23), but not until then.
In a glorified state before God, we shall only will God’s righteousness (Revelation 21:27).

Man’s four states are (a) freedom to fall, (b) freedom from righteousness, (c) freedom to righteousness, and (d) freedom from falling.

We preach the gospel to those who are regenerated, so we can reach a will able to believe. We strive to emphasize good works, because we are free to righteousness or to sin. Pharaoh truly thought he was making his own decisions, and he did them voluntarily without coercion; but the blessed God had purposed and restrained him from any rational thought (Ex 9:16).

Satan, like Adam, was created with the power of volition, an ability to will; and he chose to sin. Joseph’s brothers only thought about getting rid of Joseph, but God overruled it for their salvation!

The will of man is not involved in the matter of salvation~ legal or vital (John 1:13; Romans 9:16). Far lower in the order of things is our dependence on the will of God for minor events (Jas 4:13-15).We may choose to do this or that, but our choice is entirely dependent on God’s will for blessing. Since we do not know or understand God’s will, we simply do what we should do (Eccl 11:5-6).
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 06:24:53
John 1:12 EXPLAINS the reason why some DID receive him while other men did not! The POWER or RIGHt was given TO THEM! John 1:13 is a COMMENTARY on verse 12! The flow of the context IS what guides our understanding of not only here in John chapter one, but in all scriptures. Man's so-called free will is denied in John 1:13 by the word of God! I'll go with God, it would be unwise and wicked to do otherwise.
RB, there are some passages of Scripture that one might legitimately argue your point of view.  But John 12-13, in fact the whole passage of John 1:1-14, is not one of them. You have it backward; yogi is absolutely correct.

John 1:12  But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

That verse DOES NOT explain why some men did receive him while other men did not.  Rather it explains to whom He gave the right to become children of God; and who were they?  They were the ones who received him; the ones who believed in His name.  It was they, the ones who received him, to whom He gave the right to become children of God.

That should be obvious to anyone with even a modicum of reading comprehension.  He gave the right to become children of God to everyone who received Him i.e., to everyone who believed in His name.  Verse 13 then explains what is meant by "children of God.  The children of God are those who are regenerated; the children of God are born again; they are born of God.  John, the author of this fourth gospel, does not at this time explain how one becomes born of God; But he does explain who becomes born of God.  Receiving, i.e., believing, is the prerequisite being born of God. 
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 07:15:23
The Sinner vs. Free Will And Capability
RB, I don't know where you got that piece; it isn't yours.  It isn't written as you write. I don't know whose it is, but I know one thing -- it is a load of crap.

Quote
Adam’s death the day he ate in rebellion was the death of his free will (Genesis 2:17 cp 5:5).
There is not one word in either of those verses that says anything about the death of Adam's free will!

Quote
Dead in trespasses and sins, man is only subject to Satan’s will (Ephesians 2:1-3 cp 2nd Timothy 2:26).
Neither of those verses says that man is ONLY subject to Satan's will.

Quote
He has no understanding or fear of God and will not seek Him (Romans 3:9-18).
I realize that your theology likes to read that passage as all inclusive; however if you truly wish to do that, then you must put yourself in that category as well.  If that is describing all mankind, then obviously you are in there as well. There is nothing there that excludes you from being one of them.

Quote
When man is regenerated and quickened by grace, his will is restored to Adam’s state.
If by Adam's state is meant a sin-free state, then that is absolutely wrong.  When man is regenerated, he is forgiven. He does not become sinless, his sin does not go away. In addition to being forgiven of his sins, he is given the indwelling Holy Spirit to help him in doing God's will, but he is not sinless.

Quote
After regeneration, man has two spirits, which choose righteousness or sin, respectively.
Complete nonsense. After regeneration, it is the sinner's spirit, dead in his trespasses and sins, that is revived to its original state as God formed it in each man (Zech 12:1)

Quote
The will of man is not involved in the matter of salvation~ legal or vital (John 1:13; Romans 9:16)
I have already debunked that nonsense about John 1:13 in reply #65 above.  The will of man is absolutely involved.  It is involved in receiving, in believing in God and in Jesus.  The will of man is not the agent of salvation; that is only God, but it is the will of the man who believes, who receives.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 07:18:40
There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance.  A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.  A planet of playthings, we dance on the strings, of powers we cannot percieve.  The stars aren't aligned, or the gods are malign, blame is better to give than recieve.

You can choose a ready guide, in some celestial voice.  If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.  You can choose from phantom fears, and kindness that can kill.  I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose free will.   ::tippinghat::

Well my friend.

I could almost believe you are Kenneth Subletts cloned.  rofl  But alas you did not include an exhaustive  list of scriptures with your commentary.

In any event.

I understand exactly what you are saying.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 07:51:11
You have not even as of yet, explain anything that is according to God's testimony of his truth. The more you talk, you are only showing how little you understand.





RB,

 ::bowing::  I will shut up. To you.

It takes a certain amount of grey matter to understand what is being said and I have noticed when you do not,  or if you cannot counter with a definitive reply you lash out with your same old " You have not even as of yet, explain anything that is according to God's testimony of his truth." (Or variations of the same theme)

And then keep right on espousing your perceived doctrine. Yes, I did use that because you are so firmly planted in your ideologies that your beliefs even supercede basic or studied principles.

So have fun with your friends.




Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 07:55:56
RB, it looks as if you are in the minority again in this discussion...always a good place to be, since truth is never well accepted by the generality.

I’ll just present one brief question to your detractors for the time being: 

Who takes the initiative to instigate and execute an adoption process?  The one intending to be the parent, or the child who is being chosen for adoption?

In this analogy, most would apparently desire to credit the child with initiating the search for an adoptive parent and with satisfying all the legal costs and conditions necessary for making that adoption process complete.

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Texas Conservative on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 08:01:39
Well my friend.

I could almost believe you are Kenneth Subletts cloned.  rofl  But alas you did not include an exhaustive  list of scriptures with your commentary.

In any event.

I understand exactly what you are saying.

There are those who think that, they were dealt a losing hand.  The cards were stacked against them, they weren’t born in Lotus-Land.

All pre-ordained, a prisoner in chains.  A victim of venomous fate, kicked in the face.  You can’t pray for a place, in Heaven’s unearthly estate.

Each of us, a cell of awareness, imperfect and incomplete.  Genetic blends, with uncertain ends, on a fortune hunt, that’s far too fleet.

 ::tippinghat::
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 08:07:19
RB, it looks as if you are in the minority again in this discussion...always a good place to be, since truth is never well accepted by the generality.
Of course, you must be correct because the "generality" disagrees with you.  Not good logic.  But I am not really surprised.

Quote
I’ll just present one brief question to your detractors for the time being: 

Who takes the initiative to instigate and execute an adoption process?  The one intending to be the parent, or the child who is being chosen for adoption?

In this analogy, most would apparently desire to credit the child with initiating the search for an adoptive parent and with satisfying all the legal costs and conditions necessary for making that adoption process complete.

Like too many analogies, this one doesn't work. In your analogy does the adoptive parent adopt a child that doesn't like you and doesn't want to be adopted; but forces the adoption process anyway?
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 09:38:03
Hey there 4WD,

Of course, analogies will always prove to be deficient on some grounds when we are comparing God’s actions with those of mankind.  That goes without saying. 

But you are presuming that God never has and never will work by various means on the hearts of mankind to bring about a willing spirit.  “The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it withersoever he will.” is one example we are given in Proverbs 21:1.

The natural man, prior to the Spirit “RENEWING his mind”, will naturally and inevitably rebel at such a prospect of the sovereign God instigating the work of renewing his mind without his own volition.  It is only those who have experienced the in-dwelling of the Spirit and the effects of His power who have been made capable of humbling themselves and claiming to be God’s willing and obedient SLAVES, as the apostle Paul did.  We are, after all, “BOUGHT with a price”...the precious blood of Jesus.  We are a “purchased possession”, both body and soul.

God fully understands that the natural human spirit greatly desires to get credit for determining its own destiny.  However, if left to itself, that un-renewed nature tends only to death, since “no, not one” will naturally seek after God without the Spirit causing this (Romans 3:10-12).  Of necessity therefore, God must intervene and “draw” individuals to Himself.  This “drawing” of men’s hearts and wills is done in “lovingkindness”, as Jeremiah 31:3 gives example. 

4WD, you wish to present a caricature of God capriciously dragging various unwilling victims into His adopted fold, kicking and screaming hatred against Him both before and after their adoption, with Him maliciously tormenting for all eternity the rest who were not so selected.  This caricature does an injustice to God’s means and methods, and defames His character.  His patience with rebellious mankind and His tenderness for our fallen condition is beyond our comprehension. 

Even in the case of those who were “blind leaders of the blind” in His day, the worst that Christ pronounced against them was to say “let them alone” in that condition that they naturally had chosen for themselves (Matt. 15:14).  Trust me, 4WD, you do not want Christ to “leave you alone” to your own inclinations.  That would be a suicidal wish.  Being left to himself didn’t work out too well either in the case of righteous King Hezekiah in the OT, if you remember (II Chron. 32:31).
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 11:07:57
4WD, you wish to present a caricature of God capriciously dragging various unwilling victims into His adopted fold, kicking and screaming hatred against Him both before and after their adoption, with Him maliciously tormenting for all eternity the rest who were not so selected. 
That is not the caricature of God that I present.  That is the caricature of God presented by Reformed Theology, not me. That is the Calvinistic view demanded by the theology of Total Depravity. That is the caricature of God put forth by the There-Is-No-Free-Will cadre of Christendom, of which apparently you are a member.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 11:14:51
But you are presuming that God never has and never will work by various means on the hearts of mankind to bring about a willing spirit.
I have never ever made such a presumption.  Again, that is the view of Reformed Theology.  Reformed Theology says that man hates everything about God, until he is born again by God.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 11:18:56
God fully understands that the natural human spirit greatly desires to get credit for determining its own destiny.  However, if left to itself, that un-renewed nature tends only to death, since “no, not one” will naturally seek after God without the Spirit causing this (Romans 3:10-12). 
So tell me, 3 Resurrections, how do you think the Spirit go about causing that in the un-renewed nature?  By regeneration? Silly man.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 12:04:28
I will ask you the same question, 4WD.

How does the wind cause effects wherever it goes? 

Christ made the exact same comparison when He said “The wind bloweth where *IT* listeth,” (not where the individual determines it will go) “and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth.  SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.”

You’re trying to put a bit and bridle on the “wind”.  Can’t be done.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 12:14:52

Like too many analogies, this one doesn't work. In your analogy does the adoptive parent adopt a child that doesn't like you and doesn't want to be adopted; but forces the adoption process anyway?

Perfect response. ::thumbup::
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 12:18:40
And 4WD, I have never said that mankind was not given a free will.

THAT’S THE PROBLEM.  A created being - whether human or angelic - when presented with the option of committing either good or evil will eventually default to making a wrong choice, thus causing separation and consequently death of all kinds.  This is the case until God intervenes on our behalf and elects either angels or men to be delivered and/or preserved from that condition.

Freewill is NOT ... I repeat .. N. O. T. a condition to be desired.  When we arrive at perfected holiness in the eternal state, this option to commit sin will finally be removed from us, thank God.  I can hardly wait.

Freewill has been mistakenly elevated to the status of a sacred cow among Christians as well as the ungodly.  You are lauding the very thing that caused the death of our Savior.  Twisted theology.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 12:30:59
I will ask you the same question, 4WD.

How does the wind cause effects wherever it goes? 

Christ made the exact same comparison when He said “The wind bloweth where *IT* listeth,” (not where the individual determines it will go) “and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth.  SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.”

You’re trying to put a bit and bridle on the “wind”.  Can’t be done.
It is not me putting a bit and bridle on anything.  It is apparently you who do not seem to understand what Jesus was saying.  Neither I nor you can describe the way or manner or method of the Spirit's regenerating touch upon the sinner's spirit.  Scripture does not explain it, and the spiritual being by its very nature is not something we can observe and analyze as we do with material objects. Jesus reminds us of the element of mystery related to this work of the Spirit.  "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." We assert that it happens and believe that it happens simply because the Bible teaches us that it does. 
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 12:34:11
And Rella, have you ever encountered a child proactively going out to select a set of adoptive parents?  Where is the agency with children as its paying clients who are flipping through catalogs of prospective sets of parents?

“Cool!  I like the way those are smiling in the photo!  Maybe they would let me do whatever I wanted to...Naaah, skip that set of parents, doesn’t look like they’re rich enough...That couple has a great looking house in the mountains; that would be nice...Hey, you got any parents with a farm and horses?”  Etc., etc.

The analogy of a human adoption compared to our adoption by God stands.  The apostle Paul used this term when speaking of our salvation.  Maybe you should take your objections up with him.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 12:43:28
And 4WD, I have never said that mankind was not given a free will.

THAT’S THE PROBLEM.  A created being - whether human or angelic - when presented with the option of committing either good or evil will eventually default to making a wrong choice, thus causing separation and consequently death of all kinds.  This is the case until God intervenes on our behalf and elects either angels or men to be delivered and/or preserved from that condition.
I am seriously beginning to think that you do not have a clue about much of anything that you post here.  You on the one hand seem to support RB's view of soteriology and then on the other hand seem to deny the very essence of his view of soteriology.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: DaveW on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 12:45:11
And Rella, have you ever encountered a child proactively going out to select a set of adoptive parents?  Where is the agency with children as its paying clients who are flipping through catalogs of prospective sets of parents?

“Cool!  I like the way those are smiling in the photo!  Maybe they would let me do whatever I wanted to...Naaah, skip that set of parents, doesn’t look like they’re rich enough...That couple has a great looking house in the mountains; that would be nice...Hey, you got any parents with a farm and horses?”  Etc., etc.

The analogy of a human adoption compared to our adoption by God stands.  The apostle Paul used this term when speaking of our salvation.  Maybe you should take your objections up with him.
Adoption in the ancient world was very different from what it is now.  In those days they DID go out (and not necessarily kids) looking for someone to adopt themselves to.  In Fact Alexander the Great did not conquer Judea because he convinced someone from the house of David to adopt him and changed his genealogy to be descended from the Kings of Israel.

In 3 places Paul refers to Timothy as "my son," meaning it is possible that Paul had adopted the adult Timothy.

Do not fall into the trap of thinking Paul was referring to what we know as adoption today.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 12:50:53
Freewill is NOT ... I repeat .. N. O. T. a condition to be desired. 
So you would prefer to have been created without a free will to choose to obey God or not. That of course is the condition of the whole rest of the animal kingdom.  Here today, gone tomorrow. There is no world to come for them.  The world to come is a spiritual world.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 12:57:51
The analogy of a human adoption compared to our adoption by God stands.  The apostle Paul used this term when speaking of our salvation.  Maybe you should take your objections up with him.
But the analogy of adoption that Paul used was not adoption void of any participation by the adoptee.

How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life (Rom 6:2-4).

Walk in newness of life <=> Regeneration.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 13:47:02
I will shut up.
I doubt that will ever happen as long as you are breathing.
Quote from: Rella Reply #68 on: Today at 07:51:11
To you.
Thank you.
Quote from: Rella Reply #68 on: Today at 07:51:11
It takes a certain amount of grey matter to understand what is being said and I have noticed when you do not,  or if you cannot counter with a definitive reply
That's a false statement~besides, I have not as of yet encounter a reply that I have not address, or cannot. If you believe otherwise, then point it out. But, I know there are none, so no problem you posting them back. Personally, you are out of your league~probably not out of your comfort zone, for many love to talk about things they have no biblical understanding of....they believe that the world just cannot move forward without them stepping in and speaking up~they believe wisdom was born WITH them and with them will die!   
Quote from: Rella Reply #68 on: Today at 07:51:11
And then keep right on espousing your perceived doctrine. Yes, I did use that because you are so firmly planted in your ideologies that your beliefs even supercede basic or studied principles.
This idiotic statement just gives a very strong credence to what I just said. Free will of the flesh, or man in his natural state having power to please God BEFORE regeneration is a doctrine that the great Reformers fought against, and one that the harlot churches (mainly the RCC) pronounced a curse against. So, the Roman Catholic Church pronounced a curse against anyone rejecting the heresy of free will. So people like you join hands with the great whore of Revelation~THE BIG SISTER of abominations (Revelation 17:1-6) that God will make desolate.

She gave her curse against true preachers of the gospel at the Council of Trent in 1546.

“If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free-will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced in the Church by Satan: let him be anathema.” So, you and others shout a BIG AMEN to her curses~so be it, we will remain faithful to God and his word and protect the true gospel of Jesus Christ~that HIS HOLY WILL FREE OF SIN SECURED OUR ETERNAL SALVATION from sin and condemnation!  Selah! Praise be to his holy name.

 ::bowing:: you can fall down and worship YOUR SINFUL will if you so desire~ But do not expect any of God's children with true understanding to attend your worship service.

So we see the RCC have picked up some supporters along the way! The Free Will Baptists state in their confession, “The human will is free and self-controlled, having power to yield to the influence of the truth and the Spirit, or to resist them and perish.” Of course, this kind of a manmade salvation requires the possibility of losing your salvation to be consistent.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 14:01:12
RB, it looks as if you are in the minority again in this discussion...always a good place to be, since truth is never well accepted by the generality.

I’ll just present one brief question to your detractors for the time being: 

Who takes the initiative to instigate and execute an adoption process?  The one intending to be the parent, or the child who is being chosen for adoption?

In this analogy, most would apparently desire to credit the child with initiating the search for an adoptive parent and with satisfying all the legal costs and conditions necessary for making that adoption process complete.

Thank you~actually I'm never outnumbered as long as I have truth on my side, I'm in the majority!
Quote
2nd Kings 6:17~"And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha."
You need to feels sorry for those who oppose God's truth presented by his children.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 14:48:54
To no one in particular, save the one to whom I am not responding.

Now we know. We all know.

No wonder your side lost the war.

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Texas Conservative on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 15:02:22
To no one in particular, save the one to whom I am not responding.

Now we know. We all know.

No wonder your side lost the war.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/l4JA1COQqiZB6/giphy.gif)

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CreativeScornfulAgama-size_restricted.gif)



If you are referring to the civil war, 1.  RB isn't old enough to have been involved just because he is southern.  2.  There are other southern folks on here who disagree with him.  Your comment makes ZERO, and I mean ZERO sense.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 15:48:41
To no one in particular, save the one to whom I am not responding.

Now we know. We all know.

No wonder your side lost the war.
I'm NOT responding to your post anymore~since I have been warned by a moderator that is somewhat partial toward you. It is absolutely mind bottling that someone would find fault with what I have posted.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 16:18:39
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l4JA1COQqiZB6/giphy.gif)

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CreativeScornfulAgama-size_restricted.gif)



If you are referring to the civil war, 1.  RB isn't old enough to have been involved just because he is southern.  2.  There are other southern folks on here who disagree with him.  Your comment makes ZERO, and I mean ZERO sense.

I am not.

Yes there are

It does to me.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Rella on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 16:30:03
To whom this would be applicable.

I will stay off this thread as I seem to bring out the worst .

If possible please remove the warning that is mentioned 3 replys above.

I don't want that as I assume 50% of the reason I provoked such a reply.

Thank you,
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 17:04:30
Ok please let us all stop with the drama and get back on track with the OP please.  If your comment is not about the topic please refrain from making it.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 17:54:27
Agreed, but can we still at least leave the dog pics that TC put up?  That husky’s ear waggle is positively mesmerizing.  My autistic grandson’s favorite breed that gives him the warm fuzzies.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: bel on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 02:28:34
the old man Adam is NOT FREE, but is in bondage to the devil himself, sin and the world's lusts that works FREELY in his members~VERY DECEITFULLY I might add. The only scriptural sense that God is the Saviour of all men is speaking about PROVIDING for their daily. needs and they are not a few, but many. But Paul ads especially for them that believe. helping us to UNDERSTAND in which sense God is the Saviour of all men. Do all men the sun to shine, rain from heaven, air to breathe, etc.~ Yes, they do. Do we need to eat? Do we need witty inventions to keep living? God PROVIDES for ALL, even though few lift their heads to heaven with thanksgiving and love in their hearts for such a great and merciful God.
   



Why would they? Since, according to your belief, God has not given them the will to do so.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: bel on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 03:30:55

God’s inspired revelation declares that man was created upright, but he has fallen. To keep this short only references will be provided. (Ecclesiastes 7:29). Adam’s death the day he ate in rebellion was the death of his free will

Quote


According to Genesis 4:7 God said to Cain " If you do what is right will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door..."

Cain had a choice.


Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 03:46:04
Why would they? Since, according to your belief, God has not given them the will to do so.
Please, read all of my posts before commenting~When God created or made man, he did give him a will that was FREE FROM SIN, FREE to work righteousness! Since the fall of man, man is NO LONGER free to righteousness....he IS a servant of sin and IN BONDAGE to the same.  Man no longer need a Devil to tempt him~he has a devil LIVING IN HIM~yet, the devil can easily bring those wicked sins out of them, just as bad influences brings the worst out of our children when our training them in the way of Lord restrains them to a degree from breaking out. There a millions of little devils in the children of disobedience that we try to keep our little ones from, so that they do not sir up the devils IN THEM. Selah!
Quote from: Paul
Romans 6:12-23~"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your member's servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
ALL under the law of works ARE UNDER the power of sin, Adam proving that those in the flesh CANNOT live in perfect obedience to the law of God~that's why there a NEW COVENANT of GRACE, securing for us what we cannot do in the flesh!  Jesus Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh and fulfilled what Adam could NOT do with one little commandment given to him. YET men still believe in MAN, NOT THE MAN Christ Jesus, their god is THEMSELVES, and there they put their trust thinking God will accept their filthy righteousness along with His Son's PERFECT obedience~God will NOT allow the glory to be shared with his holy child, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, of both Jews and Gentiles...for those who DO NOT GO FORTH......
Quote
Romans 10:3b-4~"...............to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
there has been only ONE will FREE to righteousness since the first Adam~all since they were born servants to sin, from a generation of serpents, per Jesus Christ in Matthew 23.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 04:05:02
According to Genesis 4:7 God said to Cain " If you do what is right will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door..." Cain had a choice.
Okay~when LEFT to himself, what good did his choice do for him? It only hardens one's heart just as it did to Pharoah~that IS the effect of a depraved heart not born of the Spirit of God.
Quote from: Paul's teaching on man's will and the effects of it when LEFT to itself!  man's will
Romans 9:16-19~"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"
God did not work in Pharoah's heart to harden his heart, he just LEFT HIM TO HIS OWN DEPRAVED HEART without showing mercy to him, and when left of God to his own depraved heart, man's heart get even harder, never more willing to believe...IMPOSSIBLE. Pharoah is a perfect example of this, in light of all the miracles he saw God performed, he still got harder and harder toward the God of Israel, until he and his army was destroyed and perish in the Red sea. 
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 04:40:23
RB, I don't know where you got that piece; it isn't yours.  It isn't written as you write. I don't know whose it is, but I know one thing -- it is a load of crap.
Actually the title came from the OP. I have loads of notes and outlines above my desk (I gave loads of books and works to a young man and his family for their studies since my days are coming to an end, besides, I have much in my memory bank that I can pull from) that I have either put together on my own or have collected over the many years of studying. Fifty years is a long time~I can remember most, some I do not. Let me go and address your post on John 1:12,13. Maybe a little later, since I do have a few things to do.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: GB on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 07:41:19
Quote
author=RB link=topic=106769.msg1055170417#msg1055170417 date=1599036364]
Please, read all of my posts before commenting~When God created or made man, he did give him a will that was FREE FROM SIN, FREE to work righteousness! Since the fall of man, man is NO LONGER free to righteousness....he IS a servant of sin and IN BONDAGE to the same.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

And again;

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

And again;

36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.


Red, if you spent more time in the actual scriptures and less time absorbing and promoting the philosophies of other religious  men "who come in Jesus Name", maybe your religion wouldn't contradict the Holy Scriptures so much.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 07:46:24
When God created or made man, he did give him a will that was FREE FROM SIN, FREE to work righteousness! Since the fall of man, man is NO LONGER free to [work] righteousness....he IS a servant of sin and IN BONDAGE to the same.
That is simply not right.  You are presenting the concept of working righteousness as working perfect in all things.  With your definition of working righteousness, not even you, under grace, are FREE to work righteousness.
Quote from: RB
Man no longer need a Devil to tempt him~he has a devil LIVING IN HIM~yet, the devil can easily bring those wicked sins out of them, just as bad influences brings the worst out of our children when our training them in the way of Lord restrains them to a degree from breaking out. There a millions of little devils in the children of disobedience that we try to keep our little ones from, so that they do not sir up the devils IN THEM. Selah!
What sort of nonsense is that?  Fallen man has an indwelling devil?  Seriously? Where do you read that?  Certainly not anywhere in Scripture.  That is pure jibberish.
Quote from: RB
ALL under the law of works ARE UNDER the power of sin, Adam proving that those in the flesh CANNOT live in perfect obedience to the law of God~that's why there a NEW COVENANT of GRACE, securing for us what we cannot do in the flesh! 
Yes, those in the flesh cannot live in perfect obedience.  But obviously neither could Adam and he, according to you, was made perfect.  You said there is a new covenant of grace, securing for us what we cannot do in the flesh.  The trouble with your argument here is that even under the new covenant of grace, you cannot live in perfect obedience to the law of God.
Quote from: RB
Jesus Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh and fulfilled what Adam could NOT do with one little commandment given to him. YET men still believe in MAN, NOT THE MAN Christ Jesus, their god is THEMSELVES, and there they put their trust thinking God will accept their filthy righteousness along with His Son's PERFECT obedience~God will NOT allow the glory to be shared with his holy child, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, of both Jews and Gentiles...for those who DO NOT GO FORTH......  there has been only ONE will FREE to righteousness since the first Adam~all since they were born servants to sin, from a generation of serpents, per Jesus Christ in Matthew 23.
Most of that makes no sense at all  --  it is just more rambling jibberish.  FILTHY righteousness?? What is filthy righteousness?  It seems that in trying to make sense out of your soteriology you get all confused.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 07:48:02
Red, if you spent more time in the actual scriptures and less time absorbing and promoting the philosophies of other religious  men "who come in Jesus Name", maybe your religion wouldn't contradict the Holy Scriptures so much.
Oh groad  -- it's back.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 09:57:56
I have to believe that in his head that sounds very plausible but I often wonder if he ever reads what he writes because if he does then he might understand how silly it sounds when one reads it.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Texas Conservative on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 10:27:29
I have to believe that in his head that sounds very plausible but I often wonder if he ever reads what he writes because if he does then he might understand how silly it sounds when one reads it.

Remember there are people who have taught that instrumental use in worship is sinful.  Which is downright ridiculous.  Many people read that, and believed that.  Intelligent people can believe things that appear silly to others.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 13:48:46
Red, if you spent more time in the actual scriptures and less time absorbing and promoting the philosophies of other religious  men "who come in Jesus Name", maybe your religion wouldn't contradict the Holy Scriptures so much.
I see that you still have not learned how to use the quote button ( I would truly be happy to help with that if you pm me, no problem )~but, above that~you are bringing the same scriptures using the same line of false assumptions that people were righteous and obeyed God~which WE AGREE, but "ONLY" after....... they were born FIRST of God, then through the power of the NEW MAN created after Jesus Christ, they can and do live blameless...not sinless.

In spite of being an almost impossible person to reason with, it is nice seeing you posting, and I truly mean that.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 14:13:26
Calvinism in a nutshell:
[resize=200](https://i0.wp.com/www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/165934/5299.jpg?fit=1011%2C1452&ssl=1)

edit: dang that came out bigger than I thought
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 14:22:25
I have to believe that in his head that sounds very plausible but I often wonder if he ever reads what he writes because if he does then he might understand how silly it sounds when one reads it.
Sounds silly? Biblical Truth is always logical and rational~thereby, biblical truth will always be true with answers for every question. Truth leaves NO END untie and without answers but flow in perfect harmony from start to finish.
Quote from: Yogi on: Today at 09:57:56
but I often wonder if he ever reads what he writes
Now that's silly! I carefully ponder every word before writing, and most likely have turned it over in my mind a hundred times over~I never just shoot from the hip randomly. I was teaching these things back in the mid-seventies. They just did not pop into my head. Neither was I taught them by some denomination, bible college, preacher, etc, but hours of studying, seeking, and praying~ God is my witness. Other than 4WD, there is no one here that I can think of that uses scriptures to draw their support from as much as I do, correct me if you believe otherwise and can prove it. Well, 3 Resurrection does a good job~ forgot him...could be others     
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 14:48:35
Reply #105 on: Today at 14:13:26 

When you speak in tongues you at least should interpret it for us.  ::smile::
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 15:10:08
Red, now you are starting to sound like SwordMaster . He thought he was above everyone also. He loved to boast about it just as much as you do.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: bel on Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 02:47:41
Please, read all of my posts before commenting~When God created or made man, he did give him a will that was FREE FROM SIN, FREE to work righteousness! Since the fall of man, man is NO LONGER free to righteousness....he IS a servant of sin and IN BONDAGE to the same.


If you are not given a choice whether to sin or not to sin then you are not free to work righteousness. You would be in bondage to either righteousness or sin, but still not free.

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 03:04:41
Red, now you are starting to sound like SwordMaster . He thought he was above everyone also. He loved to boast about it just as much as you do.
I have never even hinted I'm above others, for I KNOW otherwise that I'm a wretched sinful man living in a body of SIN and death. You are judging me unrighteously if that means anything to you. IF I were in agreement with your false gospel, then you would be given me praise, but I rather listen to your unmerciful judging than be partakers of a gospel that exalts man rather than Jesus Christ and his obedience.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 03:40:07
If you are not given a choice whether to sin or not to sin then you are not free to work righteousness. You would be in bondage to either righteousness or sin, but still not free.
Again your false gospel has blinded your eyes to the TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The truth is this: IN ADAM EVERY SINGLE PERSON were given a FREE CHOICE~God could not have been more righteous in placing us IN the first Adam, who DID NOT have a sin nature as ALL have who are born through the generation of Adam.

If a person does not understand this truth, or rejects this truth, then it is impossible for that person to understand how a sinner is made the righteousness of God that allows him to have and enjoy eternal life, now and in the world to come.

It is IN the gospel of Jesus Christ that the righteousness of God is revealed from a person who has faith, to another person who has faith~or the power to have faith.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1:15-17~"So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
To sinners not first born of the Spirit the gospel of Christ is pure foolishness, but unto those THAT BELIEVE ( or HAVE BEEN BORN OF GOD ) it is the power of God unto our practical salvation of coming to a true understanding of HOW SINNERS are saved apart from all works of the FLESH, including their golden calf that they so adore and would kill over......THEIR PRECIOUS FREE WILL which is a misnomer, for it certainly is not free to righteousness, only a servant of sin.

If the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ then how does a sinner become the righteousness of God?
Quote from: Paul
Romans 3:21-24~"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Again.....Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...........The gospel of Jesus Christ reveals that all sinners ( Jews and Gentiles ) are justified FREELY by grace THROUGH Christ's faith~obedience~and righteousness~even as Adam represented his posterity, and  his sin was IMPUETH to all of his generations~EVEN SO, members of Jesus Christ's BODY have received BY GRACE, the righteousness OF GOD being freely imputeth to our account as though we obedience,

Reject Adam's sin as YOUR SIN, then you reject Christ's righteousness AS YOUR righteousness leaving you WITHOUT a wedding garment on!


Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 04:39:53
RB, Your “Blameless - not sinless” comment about John the Baptist’s righteous parents back in reply #104 was a great one.  I had never looked at it that way before, but your making a distinction between being blameless in God’s eyes (by the faithfulness of imputed righteousness) versus being actually sinless clears up some confusion in that verse.  Thank you for that. 

Also, back in reply #97, the way you discussed God giving Cain and Pharaoh a CHOICE to perform a righteous act, (even though He knew they ultimately would not do so) is expressing the way I am trying to present “Freewill” as offered to unregenerate mankind.  The rioters in Portland and elsewhere are exercising this kind of “Freedom” right now, which kind of “Freedom” is actually being praised by almost all posting here. 

THIS is the kind of “Freewill” that will be purged from the earth at the final resurrection (Proverbs 2:22 & Ps. 1:4-6).  Why would anybody in their right mind still desire for the saints to have the “freedom” of this option to commit such acts in the eternal state?  Not a desirable thing to have our ability to sin in a permanent state of flux for all eternity, and God has no such plans to perpetuate such a perilous state in the afterlife for His saints.

And for WS’s meme about the “Jesus Borg”, that one expresses some real scriptural truth.  Atheism actually IS futile.  ALL will eventually have to bow the knee, whether willingly or not, and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:10).

That meme also presumes that scriptural “unity” in Christ is equal to “uniformity”.  It’s not.  The disciples of Jesus were not and never are turned into “clones” with no way to express their individual personalities.  They ARE supposed to be ONE IN UNITY, even as Christ prayed that the believing Jews and Gentiles would be in John 17:20-22.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE; as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.  And the glory which thou gavest  me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even as we are one.”

If WS wishes to present this unity of the body of Christ sarcastically as a Calvinist “Jesus Borg”, then I would have to say “count me in”.  I embrace the Jesus “Borg”.   Again, why would anybody in their right mind object to being given the same mind as that of Christ?  “We have the mind of Christ” (I Cor. 2:16).
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 05:01:42
Quote
Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will vss God's Will
Though a thorough discussion of God's will would take many posts, we shall focus on salvation~this will be brief....mainly from Romans 9 and Ephesians 1.

The blessed God has the freest and purest will of all, which is sovereign over all (Romans 9:15-22). It is God’s choice which man receives His mercy and His compassion; to believe otherwise is to reject God's testimony from...(Romans 9:15)! Therefore we conclude that man’s will or efforts have nothing to do with mercy that is given in salvation from sin and condemnation. (Romans 9:16).

Pharaoh is given as an illustration of a man existing and succeeding for God’s glory (Romans 9:17). There is NO OTHER reason that could be given as to why we are here living on this earth~I certainly had NO CHOICE in the matter and neither did you who are reading this.  Therefore we conclude again that mercy, compassion, and hardening are God’s choices, per his own testimony.  (9:18).

Paul, knowing there would be foolish questions from vain men who in their hearts believes NO ONE has a right over them do as they please without AT LEAST doing the same for them as God did for others! Paul heads them off by asking them himself (9:19). "IF" we object to this arrangement, we need to shut up, for our  reasoning and questions are out of line (9:20)! Does not a potter have total control over the clay, and so it is with our Creator over us (9:21). And God the Potter has made both vessels of mercy and wrath from human clay FOR KNOWING THAT ALL OF THEM would fall in Adam WHEN left to THEMSELVES would not nor could not come to believe on him! (John 6; Romans 9:22-24; 1st Peter 1:2).

The salvation of our souls is from beginning to end by God’s free and sovereign will (Ephesians 1:3-12). The choice that obtains all spiritual blessings for us is God’s choice in election (Ephesians 1:3-4). Our adoption out of sin and condemnation is according to the pleasure of His will (Ephesains 1:5). He makes us accepted in the Beloved, in Jesus Christ, by choosing us in Him (Ephesains 1:6). The forgiveness of sins is by the mystery of His will, pleasure, and purpose (Eph 1:7-10). The Lord works all things after the counsel of his own well, especially salvation (Ephesains 1:11-12).

It is the will of God by which we are sanctified through the offering of Jesus for us (Hebrews 10:10).

God’s will is the basis for our salvation in every phase of the great work, including conversion

God’s will is the basis for election (Romans 9:13-24; Ephesians 1:3-6; 2nd Timothy 1:9).

God’s will is the basis for FREE justification (John 6:38-39; Eph 1:3-6; Hebrews 8:8-12; 10:5-10).

God’s will is the basis for regeneration in time. (John 1:13; John 3:8; 5:21; James 1:18).

God’s will is the basis for conversion (Acts 16:6-10; 18:9-10; Ist Corinthians 1:1; 2nd Thessolannians  2:13-14).

God’s will is the basis for glorification (Ephesians 1:7-12; Psalm 89:27-37).

In healing one leper, a very small minority of lepers, Jesus said, “I will; be thou clean” (Matthew 8:1-4).

It is our duty as the children of God to learn the revealed will of God for living (Ephesians 5:15-17). When we do the revealed will of God, He blesses us with the assurance of the truth (John 7:17).  It is a choice of our new man (as I have said many times over)  to respond to God by obeying His will (Romans 12:1-2; Ist Peter 4:1-3)~and submitting our wills to his knowing that he is absolutely righteous and we are sinners even at our best efforts in pleasing Him.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 08:36:27
Though a thorough discussion of God's will would take many posts, we shall focus on salvation~this will be brief....mainly from Romans 9 and Ephesians 1.

The blessed God has the freest and purest will of all, which is sovereign over all (Romans 9:15-22). It is God’s choice which man receives His mercy and His compassion; to believe otherwise is to reject God's testimony from...(Romans 9:15)! Therefore we conclude that man’s will or efforts have nothing to do with mercy that is given in salvation from sin and condemnation. (Romans 9:16).
I won't, at this time, bother with the whole of your post here.  But I will address your confusion in interpreting Paul's message in Romans 9, since you have stated that it, Romans 9, is at the heart of your conclusions.

We need to back up a bit to see what problem Paul was addressing.  In Romans 9:1-3, Paul has stated his concern that at least some of his "kinsmen" were accursed.  He says that he wished that he, himself, might be accursed on their behalf.  That is, some, perhaps most, of the Israelites were cut off from God's kingdom and would end up eternally condemned.  He says that while at the same time noting in Romans 9:4-5 of all Israelites, "to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever.." The question that Paul is setting up to answer is how is it possible that the benefits of being one of God's chosen people does not carry with it the salvation from sin and death.  How is it possible that God does not save all Israel?  Does this mean that God has gone back on His word (v.6), that God has failed to keep His promises to all Israelites?    Paul says no, "it is not as though the word of God has failed"  Why would Paul even bring this up?  The reason is that there were those who claimed that since they were among God's chosen people, therefore God promised to save them. 

Paul said that is not true and he introduces the discussion of Jacob and Esau to prove his point. It should be obvious from the context that Paul is not speaking about the two individuals, Jacob and Esau, but rather the two nations that derived from the two brothers.  That becomes even clearer when it is noted that Paul said "As it is written...", referring to God's word expressed in Malachi 1:2-3: "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." Here it is explicit that Jacob and Esau have reference to the two nations Israel and Edom.

So these words in Romans, with those of Malachi, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated", are cited by the apostle to prove,  that the purpose of God, according to election are used in the national sense and not in the personal sense.  Thus when Paul quotes God's words to Moses, i.e., ""I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" (Rom 9:15; Exod 33:19), Paul is not talking about election to salvation from sin and condemnation: rather Paul is talking about election of the nation Israel to the service to God in bringing about His plan of salvation, His promise to Abraham.  All Israel was elected to service; all Israel was not elected to salvation.  God's words, "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills" (Rom 9:18), deal with service not salvation.

Quote from: RB
Pharaoh is given as an illustration of a man existing and succeeding for God’s glory (Romans 9:17).
And this reinforces what I have said above about Jacob and Esau because there is nothing in that illustration that speaks of salvation from sin and condemnation; it only speaks about God using Pharaoh as a means to an end, namely, God's glory in the setting of His people free from Egypt.

Paul's point in all of this is that God is free to choose [elect] anyone to His service, to act on His behalf, without any obligation to save them from sin and condemnation.  Any attempt to address Paul's discussion there to election of any individual to salvation is purely eisegesis.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 04:46:36
We need to back up a bit to see what problem Paul was addressing.
4WD, when you backed up, you fell into a ditch, I think it is only right to help you out from whence you have fallen. Just call me the Good Samaritan~but, pretty sure you have another name for me......like Calvinsit, etc., etc.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 08:36:27
The question that Paul is setting up to answer is how is it possible that the benefits of being one of God's chosen people does not carry with it the salvation from sin and death.
4WD, here's my helping hand to rescue you from the ditch:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:1-3~"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"
Very briefly....Paul did indeed have great heaviness for his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh~this heaviness move him so much that he even wish that he like so many of his brethren were accursed from Christ~this accursed could NOT mean perishing in the lake of fire, for NO MAN living in the flesh, could LOVE anyone to that degree~that would be going ABOVE what the law of God demands from us and NO man living in a body of SIN and death could truly desire that even for his own wife and children~IMPOSSIBLE. This accursed from Christ MUST be understood in a practical sense of NOT coming to the TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FAITH and STILL seeking to be justified by our works. Now, brother, I COULD have this love for you and you toward me if we love each other AS the law of God DEMANDS us to love each other. But, this is not the heart of what I want to discuss with you.

Even though Paul reveals his great love toward HIS BRETHREN that were NO doubt children of God, ( that he will describe more in detail in Romans 10:1-4 ) just living in ignorance~he goes on to say these words:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:6-8~"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Paul understood that all will not hear, yet in spite of that, he took COMFORT in knowing the TRUE CHILDREN of God are children of his promises, and THEY WILL, in the end, be eternally saved, regardless of their present state in this world, and their understanding of the truth concerning Jesus Christ. Yet Paul was willing to trade places with those of his kinsmen WHOM he witnessed had fear and zeal of God, yet NOT according to the truth! What brought Paul some comfort was the truth that IN THE END, all who are children of God's promise WILL receive his mercy IN SPITE of present circumstances. 

What is abundantly clear is this truth: 
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
"but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"
All who will at the end receive eternal life, will receive it based on the truth that they were children of God's oath and promises~period! That removes all works of the flesh~so, then, it is not him that runneth, nor of willeth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Quote from: Paul
Roamns 9:9~"For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

For this is the word of promise~This particular promise is the one God made to Abraham in Sarah’s hearing found in Genesis 18:9-15, especially verse 10, where the language is most similar between Moses and Paul. The existence of Ishmael and the future existence of the six sons of Keturah had no meaning at all. God’s promises, especially in this case, allow Him to alter verb tenses (Romans 4:17 cp Genesis 17:4-6).

At this time will I come~God had told Abraham that he would have a son by Sarah a year from the promise (Genesis 17:21). When God promised in Sarah’s hearing, it was then only nine months to his birth (Genesis 18:10,14). This event occurred: Sarah conceived, carried, and delivered a son by Abraham on time (Genesis 21:2).

And Sara shall have a son~Forget Hagar, Abraham. As I promised three months ago, your barren and ancient wife shall bear. This event occurred: Sarah conceived, carried, and delivered a son by Abraham on time (Ge 21:2).
Quote
Romans 9:10~"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;"

And not only this~Paul justified and proved election within Israel (9:6) by examples ~Isaac of Abraham’s eight sons. For Jews to put stock in being Abraham’s seed or children, they overlooked seven other sons! Out of the eight sons that were truly Abraham’s seed and children, 88% were rejected by God. Paul’s first illustration was a profound and powerful rebuke to their trust in biological descent. Though this example was very weighty, Paul did not stop there but rather raised another one. We could say that he was piling on, and rightfully so, for the Jews were arrogant in Abraham. Now he gave another example ~God chose between the twin sons of Rebecca conceived by Isaac. This is profound wisdom for Paul to justify 60 A.D. election in the families of the patriarchs. Dealing with Abraham’s children and then Isaac’s children was as sacred as children could go. If God made determinate choices among sons of these great men, He could easily in Paul’s day. These argumentative illustrations for election are powerful, if you consider the nature of children. The tender relationship of parent to children is not considered by God’s choice among them. Every parent, especially these patriarchs, would want the very best for each of their children. Every parent knows the fear and risk of making big differences between or among children. Though Abraham had eight sons, and loved Ishmael the most, God chose Isaac against the rest. Though Isaac fathered twins by Rebekah (same father, same mother), God chose only Jacob.

But when Rebecca also had conceived~Since Paul had used Sarah’s miraculous conception, a use of Rebecca’s conception calls for also. In the very next generation, in Abraham’s family tree, another election occurred between children. Conception was important to Jews, especially that involving their patriarchal fathers and mothers. This second example provided another convicting election in the families of the Jewish patriarchs. It was after the twins’ conception, when they wrestled in her womb, that God told her His choice.

By one~Paul by inspiration tightened the example down by the children having the same father and mother.  Isaac’s election could be excused or justified by him being the only and unique child of Sarah. But in Jacob’s case, fraternal twins were conceived by the same parents and at the same time. If election extends to cases even like this, God’s will in election is clearly of total sovereignty. How can election be exalted any higher than God’s choice between twins of a godly marriage? Those holding salvation by race have a real problem here – God chose one and rejected the other.

Even by our father Isaac~The Jews knew that Rebekah’s conception was by Isaac, but naming the patriarch adds weight. There was no circumstantial difference between the twins ~they had the same father and mother. Their father was the chosen seed of promise of Abraham and a patriarch of the nation of Israel. Though this example of election involved the patriarch Isaac, God chose between his sons. Paul took the first father of the Jews and showed God’s election choosing one and rejecting seven. Paul took the Jews’ second father and showed God’s election choosing one and rejecting his twin.By the nature of a parenthetical insertion, it may be left out initially to follow the line of reasoning.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:11~"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)"

For the children being not yet born~Parenthetical insertions like this one may be left out initially to follow the main line of reasoning; but now we may deal with this wonderful explanation given by Paul of the nature of God’s choice. Rather than short quotations from the O.T., Paul gave an inspired explanation of personal election. Paul did not deal with nations or peoples, regardless of what Moses (Genesis 25:19-23) or Malachi (Malachi 1:1-5) were dealing with, for he specifically and clearly identified two definite children here. He argued for an election within Israel of children of God and vessels of mercy (Romans 9:6b,8,22-24)

Neither having done any good or evil~God’s elective choice was before good or bad works ~thus it is clearly unconditional election. Both boys were guilty of Adam’s sin, but that is ignored here for their own sins: Paul’s argument is to prove that God’s elective purpose is unconditionally based on His own will (Romans 9:15-16).

That the purpose of God~Election is according to God’s purpose, as are all His acts (Acts 15:18; Romans8:28; Ephesians 1:11; 2nd Timothy 1:9).
 The LORD made all things for Himself, and get this, even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverb 16:4).

According to election~Election is a choice. God’s purpose included the election of one twin and rejection of the other. What election? Paul argued against national privileges and for spiritual blessings and promises.

Might stand~There is no way around this text in its plain and extreme description of God’s sovereign will. There is no person or power in heaven, earth, or hell that can hinder God’s sovereign choices. It is the zeal of the Lord of hosts that will perform all His purposes for every individual person. The basis of everything that happens – those events that stand~are by God’s choice and purpose.

Not of works~ God’s election, or choice, is not because of man’s works, but by His grace (Romans 11:6; 2nd Timothy 1:9).God’s elective choice was before good or bad works ~ thus it is clearly unconditional election. God does not elect those who choose Him and obedience, or they elect God rather than He them!

But of him that calleth~The whole matter of individual and personal salvation as the children of God depends and turns on the sovereign will of the one and only sovereign God ~the Potter with full power over the clay. There is no other will or effort involved in His compassion and mercy, as stated (Romans 9:15-16).
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 06:05:18
Red, now you are starting to sound like SwordMaster . He thought he was above everyone also.
The only reason why men think in that manner is that they think that they have power with themselves to please God, without God securing salvation  for them!
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthains 1:26-29~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
Boastful and proud men are those who believe in free will and those who reject total depravity of the flesh.

Do not confuse me with your camp.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 08:11:34
This accursed from Christ MUST be understood in a practical sense of NOT coming to the TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FAITH and STILL seeking to be justified by our works.
Once again we see that God's word is in direct conflict with your theology.  And whenever that happens we find you giving it a SENSE quite different from what is actually stated.  I am surprised that you did not, as you often do, cite Nehemiah 8:8 to support your changing the meaning of Romans 9:3. (Just as an aside here it is really ironic that you give the wrong sense in your interpretation of Nehemiah 8:8; but that is for another day.) 

The clear sense, the obvious meaning, of Romans 9:3 is that Paul expressed his willingness to take the place of all of his lost "brothers" to be accursed from Christ in their place.  The word "accursed" translates the Greek ἀνάθεμα [anathema]. It is used in other places, such as 1 Corinthians 16:22 and Gal 1:8-9, for eternal condemnation and is there translated so even by such reformed thinkers as John Gill even if he, erroneously, can't abide it in Romans 9:3.  He must reject the clear meaning of what Paul says here simply because he, as you have done, thinks such a declaration by Paul would contradict the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the saints, or Once-Saved-Always-Saved. And, of course, you devoted the whole rest of that post trying to defend that false doctrine. But you failed.  You do that beginning with the following statement:
Quote from: RB
Even though Paul reveals his great love toward HIS BRETHREN that were NO doubt children of God, ( that he will describe more in detail in Romans 10:1-4 ) just living in ignorance~....
And here you take the words "HIS BRETHREN" to mean, as you state, "NO doubt children of God".  But of course you are wrong in that because Paul further identifies them as "my kinsmen according to the flesh".  Paul calls them "my brothers", and you insist that this must mean they are children of God.  But such is not the case.  Sometimes in the NT Jews spoke of the fellow Jews as "brothers".  This is true in the book of Acts (e.g. 2:29,37;3:17,22; 7:2; 9:17; 13:26).  Even Paul addressed unbelieving Jews as his "brothers" (Acts 13:26,38; 22:1; 23;1,5,6; 28:17). Thus no connotation of salvation is implied here by the term "brothers".  In fact, one of Paul's main points of this very chapter is that membership in physical Israel is not equivalent to membership in the true spiritual people of God, spiritual Israel:  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel (Rom 9:6) It is they who are NOT ISRAEL that he speaks of in verse 3.  And any who would simply read the chapter as Paul wrote it would understand that perfectly.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 08:35:54
The only reason why men think in that manner is that they think that they have power with themselves to please God, without God securing salvation  for them!Boastful and proud men are those who believe in free will and those who reject total depravity of the flesh.

Do not confuse me with your camp.
The boastful and proud men are those who think they can change the clear meaning in the words that God speaks and give it their own SENSE in order that it conform to their [false] theology.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 13:29:32
Once again we see that God's word is in direct conflict with your theology.
Let's get this straight...for sure against yours and the gospel of works you adhere to. 

I will answer your post tomorrow~ for me the day is far spent with a few more appointments.

One point, maybe two. I will prove that it is IMPOSSIBLE to love ABOVE what the law demands and its demands are to love others as we do oursleves~no man is capable of loving others above than we love ourselves....how is that possible? I deeply appreciate Gill, but he is not my source of truth, and neither should he be yours on issues against me.

Secondly, I was basing my beliefs that Paul KNEW some of his brethren who were fighting him were already born again yet did not possess true knowledge of the gospel of Christ from what he goes on to say in Romans 10:1-4, not so much calling them "brethren"~yet he could have meant both meanings as a means of converting the ones among them that were children of God's promises, which is the ONLY doctrine that truly SECURES our eternal salvation from sin and condemnation. NO doctrine in the scriptures secures our practical salvation from errors to a fuller knowledge of the truth~This is OUR WORK after God quickens us to life~that's why no two brothers in Christ believe the exact same truths or are on the same level of knowledge.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 16:47:08
One point, maybe two. I will prove that it is IMPOSSIBLE to love ABOVE what the law demands and its demands are to love others as we do oursleves~no man is capable of loving others above than we love ourselves....how is that possible?
I truly love both my sons and my wife more than I love myself.  I would give up my life in a heartbeat if that were required to save any one of them from death today. And I would bet that pushed for an answer you would say much the same thing. So yes, I think it is likely that Paul would consign himself to condemnation to save the whole of his lost Israelite "brothers".  But of course that would not even be sufficient to accomplish what he offered.  Only the death of the Son of God can provide the means for escape from condemnation for sin.

Quote from: RB
NO doctrine in the scriptures secures our practical salvation....
You and that bogus and nonsensical "practical" salvation.  One more time when God's word doesn't jive with your theology, you have to make up some other terms or some other "sense" to make it fall in line.  With respect to the spiritual, there is only one salvation.  And that is salvation from sin and death.  There isn't practical salvation or legal salvation or whatever salvation --  there is only salvation.  But that also is probably best left for another time.

And by the way, I do not adhere to a gospel of works. Here again you fail to understand Paul's teaching on grace apart from works of law and as a result again make up some other terms or some other sense to make it fit with your false theology.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: bel on Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 03:11:18
Again your false gospel has blinded your eyes to the TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The truth is this: IN ADAM EVERY SINGLE PERSON were given a FREE CHOICE~

So you do agree that every single one of us has a free will ( the ability to act at one's own discretion) and that we can either do what God commands (wills) us to do or something other than what God wills (commands).

Speaking of false gospels, you claim that we are all wretched sinners and that even our best efforts are not good enough for God. Jesus' parents certainly didn't feed Him this load of rotten apples. On the contrary, He was told that He was a Son of God and that He was destined for great things. Neither did Jesus feed His disciples such crap. In fact, He was "teaching them to fish" and encouraging them to "walk on water". You can whine and cry all you want to about how it's totally impossible can never please God, and make your excuses "I can't help myself, God made me a sinner and I can't be righteous." However, Jesus was a man, just like the rest of us, and He proved that we CAN do it. So, we have no excuses and I for one choose to follow Him.

Let me ask you this. Who is it that wants you to think men can't be righteous and do the works of God?

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 05:12:05
So you do agree that every single one of us has a free will ( the ability to act at one's own discretion) and that we can either do what God commands (wills) us to do or something other than what God wills (commands).
As a man, I know too well how easy it is for us to do as Moses did to the rock when dialoguing with others~kinda know a little of how President Trump feels dealing with all of the people attaching him just because he has a precious commodity they hate which is the truth~of what it takes to put America FIRST and what will bring her down.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
So you do agree that every single one of us has a free will ( the ability to act at one's own discretion) and that we can either do what God commands (wills) us to do or something other than what God wills (commands)."
The only people in this world whose will if FREE to do as you are asking are those born again~all others are born of the flesh ( UNLESS quicken in their mother's womb as John the Baptist was ) When a person is born of God, they receive from the Spirit a new man within them, who of God is:
Quote
1st Corinthians 1:30b......."is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"
And we could add KNOWLEDGE and between being RECREATED in the wisdom and knowledge of God, give us the power/ability to use the wisdom and knowledge of Jesus Christ to make proper choices~that being said, we are still living IN a body of SIN and death that hinders us GREATLY and deceiving us at times ( all of the times if not putting on the new man )....that being said, man not born of God has only one nature and in the scriptures it is called THE FLESH and according to God's testimony......
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 4:22-24"That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Again:
Quote
Colossians 3:5-10~"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: or which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
So, you answer your own question using the word of God~"Can a man living in the flesh with all of its deceitful lust without any wisdom and knowledge of God IN THEM can either do what God commands (wills) us to do or something other than what God wills (commands)...the biblical answer is IMPOSSIBLE. Again, for whatever it is worth~to all that believes God's testimony over and above man's it means everything: 
Quote
Romans 8:5-8~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
There is your answer STRAIGHT from the MOUTH of God, if that means anything to you, which it seems it does not.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
Speaking of false gospels, you claim that we are all wretched sinners and that even our best efforts are not good enough for God
Sir, it is not what I CLAIM, it is what the word of God clearly teaches. Read Romans chapter three for the teaching of the Spirit of God on this biblical doctrine through his true and faithful servants.
Quote from: Heaven's testimony concerning man's will/heart/mind all very closely associated
Jeremiah 17:9~"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
That's true of every man's heart after the fall of Adam~there is NO Exceptions.... we are born with the image of Adam's fallen nature, and it is NOT something to be desired and to be used to make SPIRITUAL decisions~even many natural decisions.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
Jesus' parents certainly didn't feed Him this load of rotten apples.
Mary understood much more than you do on human nature:
Quote from: Mary
Luke 1:46-51~"And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts."
You think she did not know the wickedness of the human heart? She taught the same to her son Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
He was told that He was a Son of God and that He was destined for great things.
Really? prove it. MAry gradually understood the truth about Jesus~which is clear from many scriptures, Joesph, we just do not know to the degree he fully understood and will never know until that in the world to come.
Quote from: The HOLY GHOST
Luke 2:48-51~"And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
The more you speak, the more you prove just how little of the word of God you know, which seems to be almost nothing.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
Neither did Jesus feed His disciples such crap
The more you speak, the more you show just how much you hate TRUTH, you have a serious problem.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
You can whine and cry all you want to about how it's totally impossible can never please God, and make your excuses "I can't help myself, God made me a sinner and I can't be righteous."
Impossible for those who are NOT first born of God! Only then is the power there to walk blameless in the word of God, but NOT until then.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
, Jesus was a man, just like the rest of us, and He proved that we CAN do it.
Blasphemy! He was NOT born with a sinful nature~God was his Father, not Adam! But, what do we expect from men whose eyes are blinded by self-worth, whose doctrine exalts humanism, the god of modern man!
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
He proved that we CAN do it
He came because we COULD NOT live in obedience to the law of God~he came so His father would on his behalf grant mercy to the member of his body, based on HIS redemption work for them, creating them in the very image of His Son allowing/giving them the power to walk blameless in the law of God. The life of faith each child of God has ever lived they did so by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST in the new man within them.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:20~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
That's my testimony, what is yours? Do not tell me, I know already. The old man Adam is your god and saviour.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
Let me ask you this. Who is it that wants you to think men can't be righteous and do the works of God?
Before regeneration? God! After regeneration? I have no clue.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 07:12:25
RB, there was so much wrong in your reply #122 to bel.  I never cease to be amazed at how poorly you interpret so much scripture.  Again it all stems, apparently, from your adherence to the false concept of Total Depravity.  The problem of our "old man" is not that we can not obey God's law.  The problem is that we do not obey God's law perfectly.  There are many people, who have not been born again, who obey most of God's laws most of the time.  They just do not obey all of God's laws all of the time with no slipups ever.  Being born again, becoming the "new man", does not mean that a person has been changed so that he then can obey all of God's laws all of the time with no slipups ever.  Being born again means that he is forgiven when he slips up, when he doesn't obey all of God's laws all of the time.  His ability to obey has not changed.  He still does not obey all of God's laws all the time. 

Ideally and hopefully as he matures in his studies of God's word and, with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells with and in him, i.e., the gift of the Holy Spirit received at the same time that he was forgiven his sins, he becomes stronger in his desire and ability to obey God's laws more fully.  That is the life-long process of sanctification.  But he still does ever achieve the ability to keep all of God's laws all of the time; rather he is forgiven for those times when he doesn't.

So yes a man not born again can be righteous and do the works of God.   But that righteousness is not the righteousness of God, I.e., perfect righteousness.  And he can't do the works of God perfectly.  After he is born again he is imputed, not imparted, with the righteousness of God. And while he still can't do the works of God perfectly, he is forgiven when he doesn't do the works of God perfectly.

There is so much more that I could respond to in your reply to bel, but I will stop for now.  Maybe later  --  maybe.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 08:25:40
RB, there was so much wrong in your reply #122 to bel.  I never cease to be amazed at how poorly you interpret so much scripture.
So why are you answering for him? You are teaching us bad manners. Yes, I see why you think there's much wrong in my post because you and I are in two different camps, with two different gospels. The scriptures warn me of your gospel to be another gospel, which is truly not another, for there is only ONE, that God's testimony presents of his Son, in his word.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
Again it all stems, apparently, from your adherence to the false concept of Total Depravity.
And, your's from rejecting the same.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
The problem of our "old man" is not that we can not obey God's law. 
Well, we proved otherwise above, address those scriptures.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
The problem is that we do not obey God's law perfectly.
EVEN WITH the new man, though his will is to obey perfectly, the OLD MAN, or, as Paul said:
Quote
Romans 7:17,18~"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth NO good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
Paul's will of the new man DESIRETH nothing but perfection, yet he knew as long as he lived in the flesh, the body of sin and death, he would NEVER be able to keep from having sin mixed with all that he did~the new man CAN NOT sin, the old man LOVES, DELIGHTS in sinning!
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
So yes a man not born again can be righteous and do the works of God.
Then Jesus Christ died in vain!
Quote
Galatians 2:21~I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Or, man's ability to be righteous and DO the works of God as you believe and teach others. So many scriptures have been provided and you just refuse to address them and certainly, do not believe them! ALL FLESH is at enmity AGAINST GOD, yet your gospel teaches otherwise! This seems as though it does not bother you.
Quote
But that righteousness is not the righteousness of God, I.e., perfect righteousness.  And he can't do the works of God perfectly.
Sir, before God will forgive any sinner, PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS MUST BE PROVIDED~there is no forgiveness where the law of God has not been PERFECTLY SATISFIED. The only way God can be just and justify sinners is for a PERFECT ATONEMENT BE PROVIDED in their place.  Jesus Christ is that SURETY before the law of God for his sheep.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
After he is born again he is imputed
So wrong! One is born of God BECAUSE Jesus paid for their sins and reconciliation was made AT THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ.
Quote
2nd Corinthians 5:21~"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
When Christ said IT IS FINISHED his work was done, now waited for the approval of God and his law~when God raised him from the dead~legally our sins were paid in full~by his perfect life of obedience in our stead. There, God legally imputeth righteousness to everyone who was members of his elect body. When he died, we die; when he was resurrected, so were we; where he now sits in the heavenly, so do we...legally speaking. Ephesians 2 is very clear on this particular doctrine.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
There is so much more that I could respond to in your reply
Same here~but time is something I just do not have much of.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: GB on Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 08:26:32
I see that you still have not learned how to use the quote button ( I would truly be happy to help with that if you pm me, no problem )~but, above that~you are bringing the same scriptures using the same line of false assumptions that people were righteous and obeyed God~which WE AGREE, but "ONLY" after....... they were born FIRST of God, then through the power of the NEW MAN created after Jesus Christ, they can and do live blameless...not sinless.

In spite of being an almost impossible person to reason with, it is nice seeing you posting, and I truly mean that.


Quote
Please, read all of my posts before commenting~When God created or made man, he did give him a will that was FREE FROM SIN, FREE to work righteousness!

How was Eve given a will that was "free from sin"? I mean, come on Red! Even 4WD, who has judged me as a reprobate and placed me in the back of the bus, even he understands the error in this statement.

Didn't God give Adam and Eve a will which allowed them to "choose" between God's Instructions, (Righteousness) and the instructions of "another voice" (Unrighteousness)?

And after their fall, doesn't man still have in them the same will?


Quote
Since the fall of man, man is NO LONGER free to righteousness....he IS a servant of sin and IN BONDAGE to the same.

Abraham, Abel and Noah, Shem and Japheth were not "free" to choose righteousness over unrighteousness? And Ham and Adam and Eve was not free to choose the same?

I'm not sure where you get your religious philosophy Red. But if the Holy Scriptures are our guide, these statements are simply untrue. And teaching untruths about God, even if you mean well, is a horrible sin.

Lev. 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

God's Word never deceived anyone Red. It's the "other voice" in the garden, who quotes some of God's Word, that deceives.

As your neighbor, I implore you to re-consider this religious philosophy of yours regarding the will God gave to mankind. Your teaching is wrong on this matter, and the Holy Scriptures prove this in so many ways.

2 cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

It's not brain surgery Red. We either believe the instructions of our Lord "Man shall live by every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God" or the "other voice" in the garden, "you have no choice in the matter, you will surely not die".

My hope is that you might take this into consideration and turn to the Christ of the Bible in this matter.


Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 09:49:09
RB, you have a major problem that stems from your adherence to Total Depravity. And that is that you do not understand the biblical references to righteous and righteousness.  There is a righteousness of man and then there is the righteousness of God.  The righteousness of man is imperfect righteousness; the righteousness of God is perfect, complete.  There is relative righteousness; there is divine righteousness.  The whole subject of righteousness is far more than can be transmitted in a forum such as this.  However, just let me note that the Bible very clearly demonstrates the reality of this relative human righteousness in the way that it compares those who are "more righteous" with those who are less so. Consider the following passages: Genesis 38:26; Deuteronomy 9:4-6; 1 Samuel 24:17; 1 Kings 2:32; Ezekiel 16:51-52; Habakkuk 1:53.  The passages that really establish this concept of relative righteousness, however, are the many, many places where the "righteous" and the "wicked" are contrasted with one another.  This way of speaking appears in the Bible almost from beginning to end: Genesis 18:23; Deuteronomy 25:1; 1 kings 8:32; Job 10:15;Psalms 1:6; 7:9; 34:15-16; 37:17,21; 68:2-3; 75:10.  Proverbs has so many of these comparisons that I cannot list them all; as but one example see 12:5. Such comparisons are also seen in Ezekiel 3:17-21; 18:20; Malachi 3:18; Matthew 5:45; 13:49; Luke 5:32; Acts 24:15; 1 Tim 1:9; 1 Pet 4:18.  And these are but a partial listing of such comparisons.

In all of these is should be obvious that those who are called righteous are not perfectly so, yet God calls them righteous in a relative sense, over against those who do not seek Him and His will.  It is in this sense that the Bible refers to specific people as righteous: Abel (Matt 23:35; Heb 11:4; 1 John 3:12); Lot (2 Pet 2:7-8); Noah (Gen 6:9; 7:1); Zacharias and Elisabeth (Luke 1:6); Joseph (Matt 1:19); Simeon (Luke 2:25); John the Baptist (Mark 6:20); Joseph of Arimathea (Luke 23:50); and Cornelius (Acts 10:22).  At other times Scripture simply speaks of the general category of the righteous or the typical righteous person (see for example Matt 10:41; 13:17; 23:29; Luke 14:14; Rom 5:7; Heb 12:23; James 5:6,16).

It is important to see that the Bible tells us that God blesses the righteous just because they are righteous, not in the absolute sense but in the relative sense I described above.  God blesses them because of their righteousness, or because in this relative sense they deserve it. I can go on and on in this vane describing the way in which the Bible speaks about those who are righteous in a relative sense, yet not righteous in the absolute sense.

It is important to see this relative human righteousness in order to even begin to understand divine righteousness, the righteousness of God.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 13:19:07
The boastful and proud men are those who think they can change the clear meaning in the words that God speaks and give it their own SENSE in order that it conform to their [false] theology.
Now, yes NOW, let me ask you this question: "Is this what you are referencing.......
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 09:49:09
RB, you have a major problem that stems from your adherence to Total Depravity. And that is that you do not understand the biblical references to righteous and righteousness.  There is a righteousness of man and then there is the righteousness of God.  The righteousness of man is imperfect righteousness; the righteousness of God is perfect, complete.  There is relative righteousness; there is divine righteousness.  The whole subject of righteousness is far more than can be transmitted in a forum such as this.  However, just let me note that the Bible very clearly demonstrates the reality of this relative human righteousness in the way that it compares those who are "more righteous" with those who are less so. Consider the following passages: Genesis 38:26; Deuteronomy 9:4-6; 1 Samuel 24:17; 1 Kings 2:32; Ezekiel 16:51-52; Habakkuk 1:53.  The passages that really establish this concept of relative righteousness, however, are the many, many places where the "righteous" and the "wicked" are contrasted with one another.  This way of speaking appears in the Bible almost from beginning to end: Genesis 18:23; Deuteronomy 25:1; 1 kings 8:32; Job 10:15;Psalms 1:6; 7:9; 34:15-16; 37:17,21; 68:2-3; 75:10.  Proverbs has so many of these comparisons that I cannot list them all; as but one example see 12:5. Such comparisons are also seen in Ezekiel 3:17-21; 18:20; Malachi 3:18; Matthew 5:45; 13:49; Luke 5:32; Acts 24:15; 1 Tim 1:9; 1 Pet 4:18.  And these are but a partial listing of such comparisons.

In all of these is should be obvious that those who are called righteous are not perfectly so, yet God calls them righteous in a relative sense, over against those who do not seek Him and His will.  It is in this sense that the Bible refers to specific people as righteous: Abel (Matt 23:35; Heb 11:4; 1 John 3:12); Lot (2 Pet 2:7-8); Noah (Gen 6:9; 7:1); Zacharias and Elisabeth (Luke 1:6); Joseph (Matt 1:19); Simeon (Luke 2:25); John the Baptist (Mark 6:20); Joseph of Arimathea (Luke 23:50); and Cornelius (Acts 10:22).  At other times Scripture simply speaks of the general category of the righteous or the typical righteous person (see for example Matt 10:41; 13:17; 23:29; Luke 14:14; Rom 5:7; Heb 12:23; James 5:6,16).

It is important to see that the Bible tells us that God blesses the righteous just because they are righteous, not in the absolute sense but in the relative sense I described above.  God blesses them because of their righteousness, or because in this relative sense they deserve it. I can go on and on in this vane describing the way in which the Bible speaks about those who are righteous in a relative sense, yet not righteous in the absolute sense.

It is important to see this relative human righteousness in order to even begin to understand divine righteousness, the righteousness of God
If I give the sense of words and phrases you make, you post such posts as above~yet here you are doing just as I do quite often!  ::pondering::  I made my point~so let me see if the sense you applied the scriptures will support. I truly have no problem with this method of teaching, because I KNOW at times it is absolutely needed before one can understand properly what is being said, I just wanted to make a point with you~ Mission accomplished.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 14:05:16
How was Eve given a will that was "free from sin"? I mean, come on Red! Even 4WD, who has judged me as a reprobate and placed me in the back of the bus, even he understands the error in this statement.
Well, you both should be in the back of the bus and kept at a social distance from others so they will not catch what you two have. God created/made both Adam and even in true righteousness will knowledge, wisdom, and true understanding, with NO knowledge of good and evil. They had no clue of SIN working in their members because it was NOT THERE. Not too deep btw.
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
Didn't God give Adam and Eve a will which allowed them to "choose" between God's Instructions, (Righteousness) and the instructions of "another voice" (Unrighteousness)?
Their will was indeed free of SIN, and from the power of Satan being his servants~they were God's creation, the ONLY voice they had ever heard of. So far, sin had NOT entered into the world THROUGH MAN~ Adam being the first man ever to walk on this virgin earth.
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
And after their fall, doesn't man still have in them the same will?
No, he LOST GOD'S IMAGE, he lost true holiness, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding~ he took on the Devil's image of a lover of DARKNESS~ spiritual igronace, understanding, void of God's wisdom and knowledge of knowing the will of God and having the power to do it~instead of seeking God, he does not want God in any of his thoughts, he even denies that there is a God greater than HIMSELF! If God had not sought Adam out, then he would have died in his sins and later the second death in the lake of fire. In Genesis 5:3 Adam's son was born after his FALLEN IMAGE!
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Genesis 5:3~"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"
That likeness, and the image has no reference to brown eyes and black hair, etc. but his SINFUL FLESH which after the fall became at enmity against its Creator.
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
Abraham, Abel and Noah, Shem and Japheth were not "free" to choose righteousness over unrighteousness?
AFTER they were born again, they WERE INDEED free!
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
And Ham and Adam and Eve was not free to choose the same?
You are confused~Ham after fall and Adam and Eve BEFORE the fall are two totally different cases!
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
Lev. 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Here we go again~you are not rightly dividing the word of God. The ONLY people who can hear and DO what Moses is writing and commanding are the very elect and these commandments are for them, the wicked have neither power nor a will FREE FROM SIN that could hear these commandments. Now, they may outwardly be affected somewhat by them, but the true inward spirit of keeping them they cannot.
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God's Word never deceived anyone Red. It's the "other voice" in the garden, who quotes some of God's Word, that deceives.
Of course not, yet the lost have DECEITFUL LUST working in their members that do deceive them! Scriptures have been quoted above from Ephesians 4, etc.
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
It's not brain surgery Red. We either believe the instructions of our Lord "Man shall live by every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God" or the "other voice" in the garden, "you have no choice in the matter, you will surely not die".

My hope is that you might take this into consideration and turn to the Christ of the Bible in this matte
IF it WAS brain surgery than most of God's children COULD NOT get it, but truth MUST be made KNOWN to us by the Spirit of the Living God.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 13:11~"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."
Selah.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 07:05:47
I just wanted to make a point with you~ Mission accomplished.
Point taken but not conceded.

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 08:00:09
Point taken but not conceded.
::smile::
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Bemark on Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 03:52:39
Did the angels in heaven have free will. Yes

Did Adam and Eve have free well. Yes.

We both fell. I hate free will.

My free will is please God remove it from me. My free will is to have no free will at all.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: Bemark on Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 03:57:59
I hope I awake one day in the garden of Eden without the knowledge of evil.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 04:34:39
I hope I awake one day in the garden of Eden without the knowledge of evil.
We will be without the possibility to ever be tempted again......... that we can be sure of!
Quote from: John
Revelation 2:7~"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 2:8-10~"Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
This is not limited to the apostles but to ALL of his children, some greater, some less, but to all!
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 13:10-12~"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
Mark, my brother, on that day, "your will"~ WILL BE be PERFECTLY FREE to love, worship and adore the Eternal Godhead in all of His Infinite attributes without any hindrance, or sin being present!  This we will do in a body of immortality that will possess POWER~power to think and BE THERE, etc. etc. 
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 06:50:36
Did the angels in heaven have free will. Yes

Did Adam and Eve have free well. Yes.

We both fell. I hate free will.

My free will is please God remove it from me. My free will is to have no free will at all.
But, Bemark, your free will to choose to love God, to do your best to obey Him, to be the sort of person He wants you to be is the very reason in the first place that He created the physical universe with physical human beings.  If all God wanted was a bunch of Calvinistic robots, he could have done that without all the folderol of this physical universe.  Free will is the very essence of God's purpose in this creation.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 07:50:18
Free will is the very essence of God's purpose in this creation.
If that was so, then it is so only to proves He ALONE is immutable, and that he ALONE cannot be tempted with evil! I agree with Pink, who was taught by others as we all are to a certain degree and who held fast to what just about everyone before him taught...consider:

"In the great expanse of eternity, which stretches behind Genesis 1:1, the universe was unborn and creation existed only in the mind of the great Creator. In His sovereign majesty God dwelt all alone. We refer to that far distant period before the heavens and the earth were created. There were then no angels to hymn God’s praises, no creatures to occupy His notice, no rebels to be brought into subjection. The great God was all alone amid the awful silence of His own vast universe. But even at that time, if time it could be called, God was sovereign. He might create or not create according to His own good pleasure. He might create this way or that way; He might create one world or one million worlds, and who was there to resist His will? He might call into existence a million different creatures and place them on absolute equality, endowing them with the same faculties and placing them in the same environment; or, He might create a million creatures each differing from the others, and possessing nothing in common save their creaturehood, and who was there to challenge His right? If He so pleased, He might call into existence a world so immense that its dimensions were utterly beyond finite computation; and were He so disposed, He might create an organism so small that nothing but the most powerful microscope could reveal its existence to human eyes. It was His sovereign right to create, on the one hand, the exalted seraphim to burn around His throne, and on the other hand, the tiny insect which dies the same hour that it is born. If the mighty God chose to have one vast graduation in His universe, from loftiest seraph to creeping reptile, from revolving worlds to floating atoms, from macrocosm to microcosm, instead of making everything uniform, who was there to question His sovereign pleasure?" A.W. Pink

God was not inwardly lonely or personally empty; He was entirely self-satisfied, self-content, and self-contained. So God did not create because of some limitation within Himself. Instead,
Quote from: RB
He created everything out of nothing in order to put His glory on display for the delight of His Elect and even the angels of God desired to look into his glorious display of God's works toward sinful men and themselves!
and that BOTH might declare His greatness throughout eternity Free will of both angels and man, has proven to be their downfall when LEFT to themselves, it allows God's GRACE and MERCY to be seen and declared, and known by the elect angels and ESPECIALLY SO toward the elect among sinful fallen humanity.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 08:13:05
If that was so, then it is so only to proves He ALONE is immutable,....
Prove that to whom?  Why would he need to create in order to prove that?  That doesn't even make sense.  God doesn't need to prove anything to anyone.

And I read your quote from Pink twice and I still do not know the point he was supposedly trying to make.

You said:
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He created everything out of nothing in order to put His glory on display for the delight of His Elect and even the angels of God desired to look into his glorious display of God's works toward sinful men and themselves!
Again, why would God need to "put His glory on display" for anyone?
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 08:33:45
Free will of both angels and man, has proven to be their downfall when LEFT to themselves, it allows God's GRACE and MERCY to be seen and declared, and known by the elect angels and ESPECIALLY SO toward the elect among sinful fallen humanity.
Is not God's grace and mercy seen by the reprobate angels and eventually the reprobate humanity also?  Of course;  "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Php 2:9-11). Even the reprobate shall bow to God.  Again,   "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God" (Rom 14:11).  As I said, free will is the very essence of God's purpose in this creation. To establish the Kingdom of God [heaven], composed of those who freely choose to love Him.

What would God have accomplished if He created two groups of human beings, one group that could only love Him and the other group that could only hate Him?  More to the point why would God create the group of human beings that could only hate Him?
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: johntwayne on Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 09:36:40
Man has free will that can either accept or reject God.

And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
(Rev 22:17)

It is God's desire that all men be saved. Therefore whosoever will may come.

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:3-4)
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 10:06:50
]John 6:63 (KJV)
63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: bel on Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 14:20:13
You think you did not know the wickedness of the human heart? She taught the same to her son Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Quote
From bel:Where in Scripture is Mary telling Jesus that He is totally depraved?
On the contrary, children were considered a blessing from God, especially the firstborn son who was to be dedicated to the service of God.
Really? prove it. MAry gradually understood the truth about Jesus~which is clear from many scriptures, Joesph, we just do not know to the degree he fully understood and will never know until that in the world to come.
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From bel:Mary may have been confused about why Jesus was in the Temple because she and Joseph " bought him back".
Blasphemy! He was NOT born with a sinful nature~God was his Father, not Adam!
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From bel:Not only does Jesus' genealogy trace back to Adam, but Romans 1:3 says" concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH."From Jesus' own words in Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is God."
The life of faith each child of God has ever lived they did so by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST in the new man within them.
From bel:OF CHRIST is a prepositional phrase used to describe a particular faith in a particular God and a particular word. All faiths are not the same. Within Judaism there are many branches. The same goes for Christianity. Jesus' faith was not the same as that of the Levitical priesthood.I don't believe in Calvinism. It is not my faith,nor was it the faith of Christ.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 04:13:19
Where in Scripture is Mary telling Jesus that He is totally depraved?
On the contrary, children were considered a blessing from God, especially the firstborn son who was to be dedicated to the service of God.
Never did Mary tell Jesus that he was totally depraved? I said very distinctly:
Quote from: RB
You think she did not know the wickedness of the human heart? She taught the same to her son Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
She taught him, NOT that she said he was!  She knew otherwise since God was his Father.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 14:20:13
From bel:Mary may have been confused about why Jesus was in the Temple because she and Joseph " bought him back".
Never confused, she brought him back because being made in the likeness flesh and blood, he still was a CHILD~he yet had to GROW in wisdom and stature~part of his complex nature one being 100% HUMANITY.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 14:20:13
Not only does Jesus' genealogy trace back to Adam, but Romans 1:3 says" concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH."From Jesus' own words in Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is God."
His humanity is indeed traced back to David, NOT ADAM through his mother and suppose father, Joseph. Yet we KNOW that the HOLY GHOST conceived in her womb a SON by His power.
Quote from: Gabriel
Luke 1:31-35~"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
You are borderlining on teaching serious heresy! I still believe you and GB are one and the same person or at least follow each other.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 14:20:13
OF CHRIST is a prepositional phrase used to describe a particular faith in a particular God and a particular word. All faiths are not the same. Within Judaism there are many branches. The same goes for Christianity. Jesus' faith was not the same as that of the Levitical priesthood.I don't believe in Calvinism. It is not my faith,nor was it the faith of Christ.
I have no clue what you are attempting to say~other than, you reject Calvinism....so be it, that does not of itself make you right or wrong in your beliefs. Calvinism is not the word of God that we are to live by, and certainly, neither is Arminianism~a much worse heresy!

Btw, let us leave "the Levitical priesthood" out of these discussions since they have not one thing to do with our subject under consideration.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 04:38:58
Man has free will that can either accept or reject God.
You folks sound just like the Pharisees in John 8.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:32-36~"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
How blind can one be! They said to Christ that they were never in bondage to any man! Have they forgotten their fathers were IN BONDAGE IN EGYPT? If they knew the scriptures they would have known ALL SINNERS are in BONDAGE to sin and the devil since the fall.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 4:18~"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
You quoted and used "sound bites" that you think supports your doctrine:
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Revelation 22:17~"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will let him take the water of life freely.
The ones that are invited to come are those that CAN hear, those that ARE athirst and him that has A WILL that has been SET AT LIBERTY by the grace of God. All others would mock at such a fairly tell of an offer~it would be pure foolishness to them who are living under a strong delusion of the lust of the flesh. But to those who are the called of God according to his purpose, it is WONDERFUL, GLORIOUS news of eternal bliss, world without end, waiting for those who believe the wonderful news from a God who cannot lie.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 04:48:20
John 6:63 (KJV) 63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Are reading this verse carefully yogi?
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It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Need help? How much does sinful flesh profit, with its will IN BONDAGE to sin and all of its lusts?
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 15:15:23
Quote
Quote from: yogi bear on Yesterday at 10:06:50

   
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John 6:63 (KJV) 63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Are reading this verse carefully yogi?
Quote

 
Quote
  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Need help? How much does sinful flesh profit, with its will IN BONDAGE to sin and all of its lusts?

Yes Red, I think I have read it carefully enough to understand that man can not save himself it is the spirit that quickeneth.

It is done through the word of God because the words that Christ speaks (or give his Apostles to speak) they are spirit, and they are life just as it is recorded.

So how is one saved? It is through the gospel sent out to men. The words of God call men unto him. So many scripture teach this. Man is called but not forced to accept.

Jn 6:68 — Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jn 12:49 — For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Ro 10:8-10 — But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:17 — So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1Th 2:13 — For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Heb 4:12 — For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1Pe 1:23 — Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
   

And many many more scriptures to say the same.


Then you haven passages as this

John 3:15-17 (KJV)
15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

What do they believe? The word.
Who is the Word? Jesus
What words does Jesus teach? those God gave him.

Who should not perish? whosoever believeth in him (the gospel of Christ)

Not as you say God hand selects a few against their will (with out them choosing on their own) but whosoever believeth in him.

So Red I do not understand what you were getting at with "Need help? How much does sinful flesh profit, with its will IN BONDAGE to sin and all of its lusts? "

I feel you are going to try to tell me that man can not understand the gospel and respond while still in their sinful state but scripture and many of them discredit you assumption.

Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: bel on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 16:46:47
Never MAry told Jesus that he was totally depraved? I said very distinctly: She taught him, NOT that she said he was!
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From bel: Just as I said before, she taught Him that He was a Son of God and trained him in the ways of righteousness . This is also what we are commanded to do:" you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down and when you rise up."

 She knew otherwise since God was his Father.
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From bel:Is God not the Father of all humankind? If not, who created us?

Never confused, she brought him back because being made in the likeness flesh and blood, he still was a CHILD~he yet had to GROW in wisdom and stature~part of his complex nature one being 100% HUMANITY.
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From bel: Again, as I said before,Jesus was a human just like the rest of us. Yet, He managed to overcome sin and death. He is an inspiration to all. So, we have no excuses.

His humanity is indeed traced back to David, NOT ADAM through his mother and suppose father, Joseph.
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From bel:If you believe that all humanity comes from Adam and Eve, then wouldn't this include both Joseph and Mary.
God said to the serpent: "I will put enmity between your seed and her seed( Eve). If this statement is true, then Jesus came from the seed of Adam and Eve

Btw, let us leave "the Levitical priesthood" out of these discussions since they have not one thing to do with our subject under consideration.
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From bel: Yes, I do believe the Levitical priesthood is relevant to the discussion. God gave them the free will to worship the God/gods of their choice, but they did not do the same to others.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 04:11:09
Just as I said before, she taught Him that He was a Son of God and trained him in the ways of righteousness . This is also what we are commanded to do:" you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down and when you rise up."
I DO NOT believe she taught Jesus he was the Son of God, from many scriptures making us think otherwise. Matthew 12:46; Mark 3:31; etc. I agree we should train our children in the word of God.
Quote from:  bel on: Yesterday at 16:46:47
God not the Father of all humankind? If not, who created us?
He is not the Father of anyone in the biblical sense he was Jesus' Father. Jesus was His only begotten Son in the manner in which he was CONCIEVED. If you do not understand this cardinal truth of the word of God, you do not understand any truths~and if you reject it, then you are not born again. A man who rejects this truth has an antichrist spirit and is not of God and neither can a believer bid them God's speed.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 16:46:47
Again, as I said before,Jesus was a human just like the rest of us. Yet, He managed to overcome sin and death. He is an inspiration to all.
Jesus was 100% human, yet he was God's Son, not Adam's. He is much more than an inspiration he was God's appointed SURETY for his elect~for he did what NO MAN could ever have done in the flesh, he lived in perfect obedience to the laws of God just as perfectly as God could have done it. After all, he was the very express image of his Father!
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 16:46:47
So, we have no excuses
Excuses? He did what we could NOT do, in living perfectly in thoughts, words, and deeds from conception to death on the cross~we can not do this for a minute.......even less.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 16:46:47
If you believe that all humanity comes from Adam and Eve, then wouldn't this include both Joseph and Mary. God said to the serpent: "I will put enmity between your seed and her seed( Eve). If this statement is true, then Jesus came from the seed of Adam and Eve
Yes, ALL DID except Jesus~ He was CONCEIVED by the power of the Highest! Sir, you have a major problem that will destroy you in the lake of fire, if you are not saved from this DAMNABLE heresy.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 16:46:47
Yes, I do believe the Levitical priesthood is relevant to the discussion. God gave them the free will to worship the God/gods of their choice, but they did not do the same to others.
The Levitical priesthood is GONE, long gone, like most other things in this world it had its corruptions yet we are living in the NT under the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful unto him that appointed him, and we a kingdom of priests. We have nothing to do with the OT Levitical priesthood~it is NOT relevant to NT believers.     
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 05:02:16
Yes Red, I think I have read it carefully enough to understand that man can not save himself it is the spirit that quickeneth.
First, man cannot even assist in helping~this is not a co-partnership endeavor.

When Jesus said the flesh profiteth nothing~he was referring to HIS FLESH, that if a man could eat of his flesh it would not spiritually profit him~( for that was the topic under discussion a few verses back ) the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. The very words spoken by Jesus Christ are spirit and life,~they are the only means of sustaining God's children especially so when they come not in word only but in power.
Quote from: Paul
1st Thessalonians 1:4,5~"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."
They are spirit, and they are life only to those called of God who receives the word of God in much assurance.
Quote from: yogi Reply #144 on: Yesterday at 15:15:23
So how is one saved? It is through the gospel sent out to men.
How is one saved LEGALLY? BY Christ's obedience/faith/righteousness ALONE..period...! How is one saved to a true understanding of Christ's gospel and our interest in it? By the hearing of faith, through the gospel. The word of God was given for this very purpose of giving to us a REVELATION of God's work in saving his elect through his Son's redemption work for them. This is how we understand such scriptures as 1st Peter 1:23. God could have chosen any way to communicate this message to us, but he chose the written word of God to do so.  The word of God is his TESTIMONY of certain truths~it is his WITNESS to us concerning truths, one being how we are born again.
Quote from: Peter
1st John 1:23~"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
The sense of this verse is this: we are born again by the TESTIMONY of the scriptures~or, by the witness of he scriptures.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 2:1,2~"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
Quote from: John
1st John 5:9-11~"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."
The word of God gives CLEAR testimony/witness of how we are born of the Spirit of God~and it IS by the obedience/faith/righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. It gives clear witness that it is NOT of him that willeth, or of him that runneth/worketh, but of God who show mercy.

I'll be back to finish...RB
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 07:01:48
Jesus was 100% human, yet he was God's Son, not Adam's. 
He was, through His mother Mary, a descendent of Adam.  He was a physical human being.  He was blood, flesh and bone just like the rest of us. Our spirit comes not from our parents; rather, our spirit is formed in each of us by God himself (Zech 12:1); the spirit of Jesus was eternal and took on the body of a human being (Heb 2:14) through conception of Mary by the Holy Spirit. Now it is true that He did not inherit Adam's sin, but then neither has anyone else.  Our flesh comes from our parents, our spirit comes from God.  Jesus flesh came from His parents (Mary as conceived through the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:20; Luke 1:35)); His Spirit came from God; His Spirit was God. John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: RB on Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 07:44:57
His Spirit came from God; His Spirit was God. John 1:1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
You might want to RETHINK what you are saying. Maybe I can move this to another thread later. Jesus' spirit was a human spirit! He died and God cannot die! As the body without the spirit is dead, so was it with Jesus. Jesus just as Stephen did commend his spirit to God! What DID NOT die was his Eternal DIVINITY, which he DID NOT receive from God, but WAS INDEED God! You need to rethink your doctrine on the Godhead~you believe Jesus was God manifest in the flesh....... just confused concerning this mystery of godliness.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 08:10:53
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How is one saved LEGALLY?
Wow this is new to me can someone be saved illegally?
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 08:11:04
What DID NOT die was his Eternal DIVINITY,
I don't even know what that means.  And I suspect that you really don't know either.

Quote from: RB
Jesus' spirit was a human spirit! He died and God cannot die!
I don't know what you are talking about there either.  Jesus did die physically.  Heb 2:14  Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, What was the "he" that likewise partook of the same things; the same things being flesh and blood?  What was it that took on flesh and blood? It was God, the Son, the Word.  Also what do you think it means that the "children share in flesh and blood"?  What or who are the children which are distinguished from flesh and blood.

It is not my doctrine on the Godhead that needs rethinking; rather it is yours.  I have observed in the past that your view of the Godhead is, to say the least, a bit fuzzy.

Quote from: RB
Maybe I can move this to another thread later.
That would be interesting.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 08:14:48
Wow this is new to me can someone be saved illegally?
Aw, yogi; don't get him started on all those different salvations. He has four or five or six of them; although I don't think illegal salvation is one of them  ::smile::   They are all constructs to keep TULIP from looking like the heretical nonsense that it really is.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: yogi bear on Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 08:41:54
I just hope others viewing this can see all the spins he has to take to uphold his views.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: bel on Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 15:53:59
RB, you seem to be misinterpreting "the faith of Jesus Christ". As I tried to clarify before, OF Christ is a prepositional phrase describing which particular faith, as there are many different faiths to choose from. For example, the faith of Tom or Tom's faith may not be the faith of Christ or Christ's faith. Yes, the faith of Christ is what brings salvation but in the sense that we must have the SAME faith in the SAME words and the SAME God, which is "love others as yourself." And we must live by these words.

Yes, the Levitical priesthood is no longer relevant to those who live by the faith of Christ because we left it at the door when we entered another. However, it does still exist. There are many other faiths that may not be called the "Levitical priesthood" but they follow the SAME pattern.
Title: Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
Post by: 4WD on Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 06:52:39
RB, you seem to be misinterpreting "the faith of Jesus Christ". 
That is definitely an understatement.