Author Topic: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever  (Read 2361 times)

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Offline Reformer

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #35 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 15:58:51 »
JARROD:
 
    This will probably be my final reply. First off, there are two patriarchs by the name of Enoch. In Jude 14, Enoch was the seventh from Adam. The other Enoch was the third from Adam. I assume you have been referencing the Enoch mentioned by Jude.

    As I assume you know, Jude spoke of one of Enoch's prophesies. It is not accurate to claim that Jude quoted from the "Book of Enoch." He quoted from the prophet himself. Absolutely nothing is said about the "Book of Enoch" by Jude. To claim so is pure supposition. Here is that prophecy:

    "Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

    I looked up Adam Clarke's comments on this prophecy. Clarke was born in 1762 and died about 70 years later, shortly after he completed his Commentary Of The Entire Bible. He was both a Hebrew and Greek scholar. Here is what he says on the Jude passage. Italics are his own.

    "Of the book of Enoch, from which this prophecy is thought to have been taken, much has been said; but as the work is apocryphal, and of no authority, I shall not burden my page with extracts."

    I have also done some additional research on the passage in Jude, and I hereby offer a quote and commentary from B. W. Johnson, Author of "A Vision Of The Ages."

    "This prophecy of the holiest man of the antediluvian world might have been preserved by tradition. It is found in the Book of Enoch, a work long lost, but recovered in modern times in Abyssinia, supposed to have been composed the century before Christ." [Italics mine.]

    My conclusion: I have no objection to the affirmation that Enoch is named, mentioned, and alluded to by various writers of our divine scriptures [Genesis through Revelation]. My opposition is when Enoch's prophecy is attributed to a "Book" he is alleged to have written.

    That has not been and cannot be absolutely authenticated. And that has been my argument all along. To attribute this prophecy to the "Book of Enoch" is about the same as my attributing a statement from Eve as being from the "Book of Eve."

Buff

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #35 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 15:58:51 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #36 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 16:44:40 »
    As I assume you know, Jude spoke of one of Enoch's prophesies. It is not accurate to claim that Jude quoted from the "Book of Enoch."
It is accurate.  I will prove it right now.

Here is that prophecy:

    "Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
Here is 1 Enoch 1:9 -

9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

This is the same verse.  To claim otherwise would be disingenuous.

The only question left is 'who copied who?'  We have a copy of 1 Enoch that predates the writing of Jude's epistle from the Dead Sea scrolls.  As far as I can tell, that settles the matter.

    I looked up Adam Clarke's comments on this prophecy. Clarke was born in 1762 and died about 70 years later, shortly after he completed his Commentary Of The Entire Bible. He was both a Hebrew and Greek scholar. Here is what he says on the Jude passage. Italics are his own.

    "Of the book of Enoch, from which this prophecy is thought to have been taken, much has been said; but as the work is apocryphal, and of no authority, I shall not burden my page with extracts."
Clarke died before the book of Enoch was re-discovered by Western civilization.  Whatever "Enoch" he is referring to is not the same text.

My opposition is when Enoch's prophecy is attributed to a "Book" he is alleged to have written.

    That has not been and cannot be absolutely authenticated. And that has been my argument all along. To attribute this prophecy to the "Book of Enoch" is about the same as my attributing a statement from Eve as being from the "Book of Eve."
Here's the summation of the matter - we can prove that Jude quotes from a book that scholars today call "1 Enoch."

Is that book written by the ante-diluvian patriarch?  No, it isn't.

"1 Enoch" is actually a collection of 5 books, and Bible scholars think that most of them were written between 300BC and 100AD.

Jarrod

Offline Reformer

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #37 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 22:27:09 »
JUST A NOTE -

    JARROD: "Clarke died before the book of Enoch was re-discovered by Western civilization. Whatever "Enoch" he is referring to is not the same text."
_____

    “The most complete Book of Enoch comes from Ethiopic manuscripts, maṣḥafa hēnok, written in Ge'ez; which was brought to Europe by James Bruce in the late 18th century and was translated into English in the 19th century.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch 
_____

Adam Clarke was born in 1762.

Buff
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 22:30:23 by Reformer »

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #37 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 22:27:09 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #38 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 23:50:37 »
JUST A NOTE -

    JARROD: "Clarke died before the book of Enoch was re-discovered by Western civilization. Whatever "Enoch" he is referring to is not the same text."
_____

    “The most complete Book of Enoch comes from Ethiopic manuscripts, maṣḥafa hēnok, written in Ge'ez; which was brought to Europe by James Bruce in the late 18th century and was translated into English in the 19th century.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch 
_____

Adam Clarke was born in 1762.

Buff
I guess it's theoretically possible.  There was no English translation published until the 1820's.  Clarke died in the 1830's.  He could have gotten his hands on a first edition, I suppose.

It's quite a bit more likely that's he's referring the 2nd Enoch or 3rd Enoch, though.  Both of which are written much later.

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #38 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 23:50:37 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #39 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 15:34:15 »

Jarrod:

But whatever copy Adam Clarke had access to, he refers to it..

 "...as the work is apocryphal, and of no authority..." His usage of "apocryphal" is unique in that it entails a lack of genuineness or is counterfeit. 

    He was a studious writer and deeply scholastic. I have all of his volumes. Naturally, I do not agree with all of his deductions, yet his productions are highly interesting to me.

Take care & have a good day,

Buff

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Re: Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
« Reply #39 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 15:34:15 »