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Offline Reformer

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The Sinner vs. Free Will
« on: Tue Aug 25, 2020 - 20:24:44 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
The Sinner vs. Free Will And
Capability

    Explanation—This new dialogue is a carryover of the topic—Calvinism—that has been discussed over the past two weeks. Due to the age of and “hits” on the previous one, perhaps we need to “change courses” and adopt a new look.—Buff.
_________

    If the sinner is incapable of choosing the path he will tread, as Calvinists seem to imply, and if God operates upon his heart to the degree that he cannot resist, we have a Savior who is not issuing an invitation to the sinner, as Jesus did, but a Savior who issues an ultimatum and leaves no alternative but to accept. This is contrary to hundreds of scriptures, particularly Jesus’ invitation to all “those who are burdened.” He said, “Come to me, all of you...” But I see the Calvinist saying, in so many words, “Come to me, because I’m constraining you to come. You have no choice.” 

More On The Receptive Heart

    A few months ago, I joined a Calvinist discussion group on the Internet. I don’t recall any two of them agreeing on Calvinism’s main thrusts. One would assert one thing, and another would propose a different thought. This helped me to understand why Calvinists and Baptists are so divided and sub-divided. 

    One Calvinist brother inquired, “But what makes one’s heart receptive over another?” His question seems to imply that God grants some people a receptive heart while denying the same “imputation” to others. If the implication is as I view it, and I’ve dealt with Calvinists enough to know it is, God has created a large segment of the world’s population for the single purpose of banishing them to hell eternally. This is not descriptive of a merciful and loving God. Furthermore, it contradicts heaven’s message of salvation, which entreats all men to be saved. 

    Each man has the ability to develop either a receptive heart or a non-receptive heart. He is free to choose either. Jesus says as much in John 7:17. Man's ability is granted by God. It is part of man’s creation. The kind of heart he cultivates is of his own choosing. One Calvinist brother wrote, “Our sinful nature means we will always freely choose to rebel against Him, unless He gives us a new heart.” 

    Yes, even as born-again believers there’s an element of rebelliousness in each of us. As unregenerate sinners initially, we rebelled until God gave us a new creation. The issue here is just how does God give us a new heart? I’m compelled to answer with Paul, who wrote, “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message...” [Rom. 10:17]. When the message is heard, man has a choice to make. “If anyone chooses to do God’s will...” No, I’m not isolating these passages from others and building a case for my own benefit. All scriptures pertaining to the subject at hand must be reconciled. 

Free Gift Or Obligation?

    To me, a loving and merciful God would never create billions of people for the single purpose of condemning and banishing them from His presence forever. Yet, this is what the Calvinist position signals. 

    God wants all men to be saved. Listen to the Spirit as He writes through the apostle Paul, “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” [1 Tim. 2:4]. God, through the sacrifice of His Son, made it possible for all men to achieve a state of salvation. Paul says again, “This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance—and for this we labor and strive—that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe” [1 Tim. 4:9-10]

    Apparently, God foreknew who would be saved, and these became His elect or chosen ones [Rom. 8:29-30]. Tell me, please—and consider this carefully: If God’s elect must accept the offer of salvation, if they must choose to be saved, salvation and eternal life are no longer free gifts but obligations. And if obligations, we work to achieve our salvation, the very opposite of what heaven teaches. “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation” [Rom. 4:4]

    If a believer must accept God’s gracious gift of salvation, if he has no choice in the matter, the “free gift” becomes a forceful act on the part of the giver. A gift enforced upon its recipient is not free! And, if required to receive a “free gift,” the gift ceases to be free and becomes a coercive exercise on the part of the giver. If God’s elect must choose to be saved, they are like mechanical robots and lifeless puppets who were arbitrarily programmed before the foundation of the world. They can make no move or author any decision until their creator feeds into them certain commands and codes, or pulls a certain string. 
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 25, 2020 - 23:22:19 by Reformer »

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The Sinner vs. Free Will
« on: Tue Aug 25, 2020 - 20:24:44 »

Offline johntwayne

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #1 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 02:57:46 »
Excellent post.

Offline RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #2 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 03:06:05 »
This new dialogue is a carryover of the topic—Calvinism—that has been discussed over the past two weeks
Really? Calvinism by me was very seldom mentioned, you need to go back and read those posts again. Nevertheless, be as it may, we can come here and discuss whatever you like~it seems as though you have a problem with Calvinism and the manner in which they teach regeneration, well so do I, yet they are so much closer to the truth than you.

I read over your OP and I must say what I said last week, and it is this: "many are bolder to affirm than they are able to prove"~bare affirmation without biblical proof means nothing more than one is speaking in the air to himself because it loves to hear himself speak, not because he has truth.

You affirm a few things without any support backing up your strong assertions. I'm leaving to go over to the next county, for most of the morning, but I shall return and begin to address your weak assertions against the true teachings of the word of God.

I will not defend Calvinism, they have their own problems, yet some great men of the faith held to some of their tenets, which many were biblical, yet when we follow man, we also generally embrace their errors with some of their true teachings. This was said of Jesus:
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
John 2:24,25~"But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."
The very best of men, including you and myself (NOT that we are among the best) are altogether lighter than vanity!
Quote from: David
Psalme 69:2~"Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity."
I believe THIS is what we have been speaking about the past week or so~sad but true of ALL of us at our very best state and the holiest precious moment we can have in the flesh...... THIS IS TRUE OF US.

Okay, I shall return the Lord willing.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 03:09:39 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #2 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 03:06:05 »

Offline RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #3 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 03:53:58 »
Excellent post.
Not so fast johntwayne...we shall see once tested by the word of God how excellent it is.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #3 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 03:53:58 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #4 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 07:23:43 »
Really? Calvinism by me was very seldom mentioned,....
RB, it really isn't necessary for you to mention Calvinism.  Every time you say anything that aligns with the false doctrine of Total Depravity you bring Calvinism into the discussion.  The false teaching of Total Depravity is at the heart of the entire Calvinist Soteriology.  So that with Total Depravity being false, then the entire Calvinist Soteriology is false.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 07:25:49 by 4WD »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #4 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 07:23:43 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #5 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 07:51:09 »
It’s similar to not having to use the term socialism to refer clearly to socialistic thought. One can recognize Marxism without out any mention of Karl Marx or The term Marxism. One can certainly hold to the error of “Calvinism” without ever even hearing the term Calvinism. Same as people calling me a Campbellite, and I am more ignorant of his writings than almost any author. But I understand what people are referring to.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 15:51:14 by Jaime »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #5 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 07:51:09 »

Offline Rella

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #6 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 11:48:08 »


    God wants all men to be saved. Listen to the Spirit as He writes through the apostle Paul, “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” [1 Tim. 2:4]. God, through the sacrifice of His Son, made it possible for all men to achieve a state of salvation. Paul says again, “This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance—and for this we labor and strive—that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe” [1 Tim. 4:9-10]

    Apparently, God foreknew who would be saved, and these became His elect or chosen ones [Rom. 8:29-30]. Tell me, please—and consider this carefully: If God’s elect must accept the offer of salvation, if they must choose to be saved, salvation and eternal life are no longer free gifts but obligations. And if obligations, we work to achieve our salvation, the very opposite of what heaven teaches. “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation” [Rom. 4:4]

    If a believer must accept God’s gracious gift of salvation, if he has no choice in the matter, the “free gift” becomes a forceful act on the part of the giver. A gift enforced upon its recipient is not free! And, if required to receive a “free gift,” the gift ceases to be free and becomes a coercive exercise on the part of the giver. If God’s elect must choose to be saved, they are like mechanical robots and lifeless puppets who were arbitrarily programmed before the foundation of the world. They can make no move or author any decision until their creator feeds into them certain commands and codes, or pulls a certain string.

You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary.

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.'

Does this not clearly say that God draws those?  And that only those drawn will have
the option to accept or reject Jesus?

I can easily see that the Gift of Jesus is only meant for those who God calls. But it is not a free gift. Acceptance in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, Repentance and Baptism are necessary for those who God calls.

In other words... you are paying your dues.

That the offer of Jesus' salvation I just do not see as  a free gift

But then there is a seeming contradiction...

1 Tim 4: 10

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe ??????

 ALL men are saved?

As I said elsewhere, the authors of the Bible do not clearly offer the same ideas.






Offline Reformer

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #7 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 17:24:26 »

Rella:

    "You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
_____

    You will note that "draw him" cannot be translated "force him." This is your error, Rella. A man is drawn by the message of salvation, not forced.

Buff

Offline Reformer

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #8 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 17:25:56 »
Special Note On The Perseverance Of The Saints –

    The apostle Paul, in comparing the Christian walk to a race, says, “I beat [discipline] my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize” [1 Cor. 9:27]

    While Paul wasn’t planning for it to happen to him, is not the apostle saying that one might run in the Christian race in such a way as to be disqualified and not receive the prize? This conforms to 2 Tim. 2:5, “If anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.” 

    These passages do not fit well with the Calvinist doctrine of “the perseverance of the saints”—that is, that the elect are unconditionally saved. Paul was of the elect and was writing to the elect, and he warned that the undisciplined might be disqualified and not receive the reward. Or as he told Timothy, the race has rules, which are not to be taken lightly, lest one not be crowned. Pray tell me, how could one make it plainer that that! 

Concluding Question & Comments

    Is heaven behind the Calvinistic persuasion? It seems to me that if heaven is behind the main thrusts of this belief system, God failed to communicate it in terms the average man can understand. I like to think of myself as possessing the intellectual capabilities of decoding understandable communiqués.

    But if God is the author of this theological belief system, He has communicated His will in such a way that I’m incapable of comprehending it. It is a “mess” of jumbled entities. Furthermore, I’m always suspicious of a belief system that takes volumes to explain. 

    Yes, I know, there are scriptures that are difficult to understand. “His [Paul’s] letters contain some things that are hard to understand” [2 Peter 3:16]. The scheme of redemption does not fall into that category, however. But the aspects of Calvinism, which relate to the scheme of liberation, is complicated and almost impossible to “put together” in a comprehensible manner. Yes, I am more than suspicious of it.

Buff
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 17:29:41 by Reformer »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #8 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 17:25:56 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #9 on: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 17:37:06 »
Rella, if I may reply to your post.

You asked about God drawing men unto him and how it is done. I think you can find your answer to that clearly answered in the bible.

Romans 10:12-18 (KJV)
12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

You are saved by hearing the word of God the gospel message and in that message is told how to respond. See the second chapter of Acts where the full gospel was preached and who God was adding to the Church. Its all there in the good book we just have to open our hearts to hear and believe what was recorded for us. The answer is there. We just have to trust and obey for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 17:39:37 by yogi bear »

Offline Bemark

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #10 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 02:18:16 »
The sinner CAN choose not to . The born again CAN choose not to.

They both can

What makes them different. The Blood of Jesus Christ
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 02:22:22 by Bemark »

Offline RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #11 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 03:51:16 »
I'm going to make a post later today or tomorrow until then anyone interesting in understanding what the church has taught on this subject should read Martin Luther's book one that I read many years ago, one of the old classic .

MARTIN LUTHER AT HIS BEST~THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL

There are few books written over 400 years ago are still applicable today; Martin Luther's masterpiece, The Boncage of the Will, is one of those books. Anyone desiring to know more about the root of dissent between Luther and the Catholic Church must read this book.

In his treatise Luther systematically demolishes Erasmus' arguments in favor of free-will. Luther brilliantly illustrates why the will is in total and complete bondage and enslavement to sin, and why free-will is a completely meaningless term. Luther argues that the only thing the will is free to do is to sin and rebel against God, which it does naturally and even more so when God hardens man's heart~OR, another way of saying that....when God leaves man TO HIMSELF ( just as he did Pharaoh ) without using any restrain upon man, and this he can and often does through many different means.

Luther shows that salvation is totally dependent on the grace of God and His sovereign Will. To say that even a small part of the human will can prepare itself to receive God's grace is an utterly ludicrous sentiment. Erasmus believes that a human being by a very small effort can earn God's grace. Luther totally destroys this view and shows that to espouse such a view makes one worse than the Pelagians, who held that it took numerous great works to earn God's grace.

This book is as applicable today as it was when Luther first wrote this book. When so many Protestant Churches ( and individuals ) hold to a soteriological view more akin to that of Erasmus, it is absolutely vital that the truth of the Reformation and be brought back into the spotlight on this all-important doctrine~err here and one's gospel cannot be of God, but another gospel, which truly IS NOT another for there is only ONE GOSPEL. Read this book to gain a greater understanding of the major area of disagreement among the Reformers and the Catholic Church of that time, and also to understand that our salvation is not predicated on any meritorious work that we accomplish, but simply on the grace of God.

The denial of free will was the main the position of the Reformation. The Reformers had always been settled on this crucial issue. This was the “manifesto” of the Reformation. On this issue, the Gospel, and Reformation Christianity, stands or falls. The selling of indulgences and other ecclesiastical abuses were not the central issues. They were the occasion for the Reformation, not the cause. Luther at the end of his rebuttal, in his book ‘Bondage of the Will’, praises Erasmus thus:

“I give you hearty praise and commendation on this further account—that you alone, in contrast with others, have attacked the real thing, that is, the essential issue. You have not wearied me with those extraneous issues about the Papacy, purgatory, indulgences and such like trifles. . . . You, and you alone, have seen the hinge on which all turns, and aimed for the vital spot” (319).

Erasmus had understood the issues clearly and went straight for the jugular. If Erasmus had succeeded in this debate against Luther, Roman Catholicism would have triumphed, and the Reformation lost. What Erasmus failed to do 500 years ago, he now succeeds magnificently among the supposed posterity of the Reformation, who are even now returning to Rome.

If there is ever going to be a reclaiming of the Gospel, if there is ever going to be a second Reformation, this essential issue—the bondage of the will—must once again be proclaimed and successfully defended. No lesser victory will do.

[Quoted from – ‘Martin Luther on Free-Will’ from The Highway] Go online and read this book..." maybe " Luther's greatest work that he has in print. 

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/pdf/luther_arbitrio.pdf
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 04:01:10 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #12 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 05:48:11 »
You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary.

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.'

John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."



Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #13 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 06:19:16 »
The denial of free will was the main the position of the Reformation.
I am not sure that is really true.  I think the main position of the Reformation that came from Martin Luther was Sola Scriptura.  The Catholic Church considered tradition and scripture, as interpreted by the Roman magisterium, both as equal sources of inspired doctrine. That was Luther's major objection to so much of what the Catholic Church taught.



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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #14 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 06:46:18 »
From the book you referenced we have the following:

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.

Sect. 9.—THIS, therefore, is also essentially necessary and wholesome for Christians to know: That God foreknows nothing by contingency, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His immutable, eternal, and infallible will. By this thunderbolt, "Free-will" is thrown prostrate, and utterly dashed to pieces.



This constitutes a fundamental error of Martin Luther in his treatise.  He believed that foreknowledge demanded foreordainment.  In other words Martine Luther thought that the only way God could know the future absolutely was if He caused that future absolutely. That is simply not true. And frankly, RB, I do not think you believe that.  Because if God's foreknowledge exists only by His predestination, then God is the absolute cause of sin.  That cannot be.


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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #15 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 07:49:54 »
Special Note On The Perseverance Of The Saints –

    The apostle Paul, in comparing the Christian walk to a race, says, “I beat [discipline] my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize” [1 Cor. 9:27]

    While Paul wasn’t planning for it to happen to him, is not the apostle saying that one might run in the Christian race in such a way as to be disqualified and not receive the prize? This conforms to 2 Tim. 2:5, “If anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.” 

    These passages do not fit well with the Calvinist doctrine of “the perseverance of the saints”—that is, that the elect are unconditionally saved. Paul was of the elect and was writing to the elect, and he warned that the undisciplined might be disqualified and not receive the reward. Or as he told Timothy, the race has rules, which are not to be taken lightly, lest one not be crowned. Pray tell me, how could one make it plainer that that! 

Concluding Question & Comments

    Is heaven behind the Calvinistic persuasion? It seems to me that if heaven is behind the main thrusts of this belief system, God failed to communicate it in terms the average man can understand. I like to think of myself as possessing the intellectual capabilities of decoding understandable communiqués.

    But if God is the author of this theological belief system, He has communicated His will in such a way that I’m incapable of comprehending it. It is a “mess” of jumbled entities. Furthermore, I’m always suspicious of a belief system that takes volumes to explain. 

    Yes, I know, there are scriptures that are difficult to understand. “His [Paul’s] letters contain some things that are hard to understand” [2 Peter 3:16]. The scheme of redemption does not fall into that category, however. But the aspects of Calvinism, which relate to the scheme of liberation, is complicated and almost impossible to “put together” in a comprehensible manner. Yes, I am more than suspicious of it.

Buff

Once again, you attempt to speak with authority, but instead speak with ignorance.  The prize is salvation, and we must work for it? 

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the "Perseverance (Preservation) of the Saints" even teaches.  Calvinist thought about unconditional election is not once someone is saved they can do anything and be saved (OSAS), but rather those that God elected to salvation would necessarily persevere until the end.  The teaching would be that one who did not persevere until the end was never truly saved to begin with.

You can certainly disagree doctrinally with what is taught by Calvinism, but instead of setting up a straw man and soundly defeating it, perhaps you should look to see what they actually teach first.


Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #16 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 07:56:45 »
Rella:

    "You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
_____

    You will note that "draw him" cannot be translated "force him." This is your error, Rella. A man is drawn by the message of salvation, not forced.

Buff

You don't even believe that man needs to be drawn.  He can just be ignorant and be a "noble savage."  You shouldn't even engage in discussions after displays of humanistic thought you brought forth in the "Ultimate Fate of Billions" threads you started.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #17 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 08:09:23 »
My question is this: Since God exists outside of time and can see "the end from the beginning," (Isa 46.10) does not terms like "foreknowledge," "foreordainment" and "foresee" become meaningless?  Does it not limit God to be subject to time?

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #18 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 09:05:05 »
My question is this: Since God exists outside of time and can see "the end from the beginning," (Isa 46.10) does not terms like "foreknowledge," "foreordainment" and "foresee" become meaningless?  Does it not limit God to be subject to time?
No, the time element applies to us.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #19 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 09:11:40 »
No, the time element applies to us.
Except in post #14 you are applying it to God.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #20 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:02:34 »
Except in post #14 you are applying it to God.
So when Paul says, "For those whom He foreknew...."(Rom 8:29), you think he was subjecting God to time?  Interesting. Or how about Peter, when he said, "who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....."(1 Pet 1:1-2)?  You think he was subjecting God to time?
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:05:38 by 4WD »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #21 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:10:27 »
You don't even believe that man needs to be drawn.  He can just be ignorant and be a "noble savage."  You shouldn't even engage in discussions after displays of humanistic thought you brought forth in the "Ultimate Fate of Billions" threads you started.
Perhaps you should go back and look at some of your own displays on any number of subjects to see if you should engage in those discussions. More than a few of them were entirely absent of anything other than humanistic thought.

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #22 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:13:42 »
Perhaps you should go back and look at some of your own displays on any number of subjects to see if you should engage in those discussions. More than a few of them were entirely absent of anything other than humanistic thought.

I provided an example.  You did not.   rofl

Here is an example of your humanistic reasoning:

Absolutely, soterion.

::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

+1

I would add a couple of thoughts here.  We are told that the reward the believer is eternal life and the reward of the unbeliever to condemnation.  We need to be careful of who we call and unbeliever.  If one has not heard the gospel, is that one and unbeliever?  I don't think so.

In John 5:28-29 Jesus said, "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

There are other passages that make similar statements.  I believe that just as there are differing levels of the resurrection of life in heaven, there are also different levels of judgement.  We all know friends or relatives who were not believers, but were basically good people.  I do not believe that God's judgement for them will be the same as one such as a Stalin, Hitler, or Mao Zedong who were and exhibited evil in the worst way.  That does not seem to me to be good judgement.  But maybe that is just me hoping for the best for some that I knew and loved who were not "believers".
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:17:40 by Texas Conservative »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #23 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:19:22 »
I provided an example.  You did not.   rofl
No you didn't you just referred to "displays of humanistic thought" in the topic, "Ultimate Fate of Billions".


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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #24 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:31:52 »
No you didn't you just referred to "displays of humanistic thought" in the topic, "Ultimate Fate of Billions".

The entire thread is predicated on humanistic thought.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #25 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 11:42:22 »
The entire thread is predicated on humanistic thought.
Just like nearly everything you post.  If you say anything in this forum other than posting an exact quote from the Bible, it is [your] humanistic thought.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #26 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 14:47:41 »
You will note that "draw him" cannot be translated "force him." This is your error, Rella. A man is drawn by the message of salvation, not forced.
I generally to not step in when a post is directed to another person, but, you are who you hang around with and I picked up on one of 4WD bad habits, so just attribute this to him for me doing so.  ::smile::

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST...HEAR YE HIM....
John 6:44~"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

""No man can come to me"~Coming to Christ here is to believe on Jesus Christ as God’s Son from heaven.The issue at stake – clearly stated as a premise ~is believing on Him (6:29). Note the clear comparison between coming and believing on Him (Jn 6:35). Note again the clear comparison between believing and coming (John 6:36-37). Note a third clear comparison of coming and believing on Him (John 6:44-47). Note a fourth clear comparison of believing and coming to Him (6:64-65). This coming to Jesus Christ is sincere faith meeting God’s approval with works. Insincere faith that does not qualify is identified in John (2:23-25; 8:30-59). Real, or biblical faith changes men, but real faith requires a real work of grace by God.Real faith~ and in John 6 it must be emphasized repeatedly~is not assent.Real faith owns Jesus as Saviour and Lord with passion, obedience, cost, etc. We should let these six words lodge in our memory and be a foundation stone of truth.

No man has more right to modify these words than Satan in Genesis 3:4. Since Genesis 3:6 man has been dead spiritually in need of total resurrection.
There is no cure or remedy to offer a dead man......the Spirit must give the man life.

Any study of salvation must deal with this fact of man’s depravity and death. No man can come to me = all men run to sin in hatred and rebellion against God. Paul’s first chapter in Romans is a terrible indictment of men and truth (Rom 1:18-32). Paul then used the scriptures to show the utter depravity of man (Romans 3:9-18)~which we mentioned above. Luke’s record of Paul’s preaching at Antioch illustrated it (Acts 13:38-52).

Natural man greatly opposes truth (Romans 8:7-8; Ist Corinthains 2:14; Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19). There is no ability of heart or will for natural man to submit to the Son of God. It is not a matter of intellect or intelligence as much as depravity of the will. Men can still reason logically, but they will not do so toward spiritual truth...yea, cannot!  Jesus denied a ruler of the Jews the ability to see Christ’s kingdom (John 3:3). Jesus on trial for His life declared that the Jews would not believe (John 5:40). Jesus denied another Jewish audience the ability to hear Him (John 8:43,47). Man’s universal depravity is described in detail by Paul (Romans 1:18-32). AGAIN, there is no man, Jew or Gentile, able to understand such things (Romans 3:9-18). Natural man is dead to spiritual truth of God ( AGIAN...Romans 8:7-8; Ist Corintians 2:14; Ephesians 2:1-3). Therefore, no effort or method will help to bring an unregenerate man to Christ. Isaiah wrote that a change of environment cannot help sinful man (Isaiah 26:10). Jesus rejected even Lazarus returning from the dead as helpful (Luke 16:31) Jesus shortly suggested ascension back to heaven would not help (6:62-65). How much less profitable the foolish, heretical, and profane ideas of today! It is a terrible shame this verse and its doctrine and repetition are ignored (6:65). AGAIN~It is the doctrine of total depravity, where any study of salvation must start.

It results in many false salvation ideas by not rightly seeing man depraved. It results in a weak view of salvation where man can choose to save himself. It results in confusing God’s mighty work of regeneration or quickening. It results in a presumptuous idea that man has a free will to be manipulated. It results in decisional salvation where man is pushed and pulled to choose. It results in ridiculous methods – the end justifies the means – for salvation. It results in false confidence in salvation by ignoring the role of good works. It results in missing God’s promise to regenerate His elect and convert them. It results in confounding the order of regeneration and conversion of sinners. It results in confidence in oneself or in man rather than in God’s free grace.

Free will? God’s will is free, but even He cannot will sinfully (Romans 9:14). The evident proof of depravity is repeated in light of ascension (6:62-65). If all are depraved and rebels against God, will any come to Christ and how? The differences among men are incredible, but they are not by innate ability. It is not that some men are born better than others by nature … but by grace.

"Except" the Father~...The impossibility of man ever believing on His Son is solved by God’s grace. Here the keyword is except~elsewhere it is the inspired disjunctive but (Romans 5:8; 6:17; I Corinthians 1:27; 3:7; Galatians 1:15; Ephesians 2:4; 2nd Thess.  2:13; Titus 3:4). God must intervene, because man’s inability is beyond his own help (6:44). God makes all the difference.... every bit of it ~and shall get all the praise.

Except, unless and until, a man is born again, he cannot see Christ (John 3:3,5). This explanation and condemnation of the audience is repeated (6:44, 65). The will of the flesh or will of man has no role, only the Spirit (John 1:13; 3:8). There is no need to find shades of difference between drawing and regeneration. Without regeneration, no drawing will work, even by the Spirit (Ist Corinthians 2:14). Jesus denied even the most dramatic events as having no value (Luke 16:31). Without God’s persuading operation, regeneration may give life without conversion (Galatians 1:15-16 cp Ist Timothy 1:12 cp Acts 9:6 cp Romans 11:28). There is a work of revelation that follows regeneration (Ephesians 1:17; 3:14-19). All glory to God the Father … giving us to Christ (6:37) … drawing us (6:44). We understand this to be the eternal phase and the vital phase of salvation. The effect of being drawn is to come to Christ and believe on Him (6:40,47) DRAWING = the free gift/POWER to comeper Jesus' very words:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:65"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
So, It is very plain drawing EQUALS the gift/power to come WILLINGLY! Which agrees perfectly with John 1:12,13!
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 02:33:43 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #27 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 16:52:54 »
John 6:45  It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."


Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #28 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 17:07:03 »
I provided an example.  You did not.   rofl

Here is an example of your humanistic reasoning:

Quote
Absolutely, soterion.

::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

+1

I would add a couple of thoughts here.  We are told that the reward the believer is eternal life and the reward of the unbeliever to condemnation.  We need to be careful of who we call and unbeliever.  If one has not heard the gospel, is that one and unbeliever?  I don't think so.

In John 5:28-29 Jesus said, "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

There are other passages that make similar statements.  I believe that just as there are differing levels of the resurrection of life in heaven, there are also different levels of judgement.  We all know friends or relatives who were not believers, but were basically good people.  I do not believe that God's judgement for them will be the same as one such as a Stalin, Hitler, or Mao Zedong who were and exhibited evil in the worst way.  That does not seem to me to be good judgement.  But maybe that is just me hoping for the best for some that I knew and loved who were not "believers".

Yes it is my humanistic reasoning.  And you can't rebut it except by your own humanistic reasoning. And by the way, if you disagree with my humanistic reasoning, then what do you think Jesus meant when He said, "But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you"(Mat 11:22), ?


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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #29 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 17:30:43 »
God must intervene, because man’s inability is beyond his own help (6:44). God makes all the difference.... every bit of it ~and shall get all the praise.
Yes, of course, man can not save himself.  That is beyond his own ability.  But it is not beyond his own ability to believe the Gospel message and understand that God can save him and thus submit to the requirements and conditions that God as set forth in the Gospel message in order that God would save him.

As far as all the praise goes, I praise God that He "so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life", and I praise God that He gave us His written word that is "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" (2Ti_3:16) including the Gospel for which I praise Him because "it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Rom 1:16) , and I praise God that I am able to read, to understand and believe that really simple Gospel message.

Offline Rella

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #30 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 19:23:39 »
Rella:

    "You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
_____

    You will note that "draw him" cannot be translated "force him." This is your error, Rella. A man is drawn by the message of salvation, not forced.

Buff

@Reformer

No Buff.

I am not in error on this by any stretch because I never said anything about forcing anyone?

The verse that says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day" does not say God cast out a fishing net and pulled men in with no option. That is what forcing would do. Allowing no option, and we always have that.

I said

"Does this not clearly say that God draws those?  And that only those drawn will have the option to accept or reject Jesus?

I can easily see that the Gift of Jesus is only meant for those who God calls. But it is not a free gift. Acceptance in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, Repentance and Baptism are necessary for those who God calls.

In other words... you are paying your dues."

There is not one thing in what I said that could be misunderstood for forcing.

Sparking interest into a person so that person wants to  following up this "Christianity" stuff.... even if that person decides it is not for him.  But if he does he learns that according to the Holy Bible you must develop a faith... i e ... true belief in who Jesus was/is and what he did for us in shedding His blood, or it just will be a non starter . This is as the bare minimum of needed requirements but it is not something we are naturally born with.

We need be drawn by an interest in persueing this.

You said
Quote
    Apparently, God foreknew who would be saved, and these became His elect or chosen ones [Rom. 8:29-30]. Tell me, please—and consider this carefully: If God’s elect must accept the offer of salvation,

There is no must about it. (Everyone always has the ability to reject what they learn. The question is why they would want to do that.) 

Quote
If they must choose to be saved, salvation and eternal life are no longer free gifts but obligations. And if obligations, we work to achieve our salvation, the very opposite of what heaven teaches. “Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation” [Rom. 4:4].

There is nothing free in this life.

The very simple reason for that is no person alive today, from the past or into the future deserves what the Father has offered up in His Son's death for us.

He gave us an offer.

If there were no conditions to be met, then simply said Jesus would never have needed to suffer for us.

Offline Rella

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #31 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 19:24:24 »
Rella, if I may reply to your post.

You asked about God drawing men unto him and how it is done. I think you can find your answer to that clearly answered in the bible.

Romans 10:12-18 (KJV)
12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

You are saved by hearing the word of God the gospel message and in that message is told how to respond. See the second chapter of Acts where the full gospel was preached and who God was adding to the Church. Its all there in the good book we just have to open our hearts to hear and believe what was recorded for us. The answer is there. We just have to trust and obey for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey.

@yogi bear

yogi bear,

You are reading things that I have not said or indicted.

I posted that verse because it seemed to be needed with what Buff was talking in his thread. However....

You say

"You asked about God drawing men unto him and how it is done."

I did not ask about how God would do this.

Ummmm.  I never ask how it is done simply because those I have heard from have their own individual stories.  I do not need to ask that, but perhaps you do? I have my own witness I can share about how it was done to me, but certainly do not want to bore anyone.

Quote
"You are saved by hearing the word of God the gospel message and in that message is told how to respond."

May I ask you what it was that I said that would indicate I need to know this explanation?

So much I could say to you but this is not the thread...and anyway,a long while back we tangled over this saving thing. Not just you and I but others as well. Not sure if you remember, but I do... and ........   nope, I best keep my mouth shut  ::eek::

Offline Rella

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #32 on: Thu Aug 27, 2020 - 19:24:55 »
Quote
Quote from: Rella on Yesterday at 11:48:08
You have not touched on John 6:44. Or where this fits in your commentary.

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.'


John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

@4WD

4WD,

Are you contradicting  or enhancing what I posted of John 6:44?
''No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.''

BTW...KJV words yours this way.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

(NOTE: I have generally been posting KJV simply because that is the one translation most all readers here are familiar with. I personally find fault with it... including John 12:32...but this is for another day)

I assume you were enhancing as yours does compliment mine, even though it can be argued that the meanings are not the same.

Can we agree that

John 12:32 simply means that  John using the the word  ''ALL" ....to mean all Jews AND Gentiles inclusively....ALL without DISTINCTION, not that he wants you to believe ALL without EXCEPTIONS for we KNOW  God DOES make exceptions among men. 

We are reminded that back in the OT, the word of God was LIMITED ONLY to the Jewish nation, now since the cross, God is visiting the Gentiles to take OUT OF them a people for his namesake.

This interpretation allows PERFECT flow from scriptures to scriptures, his teaching puts scriptures AGAINST scriptures.

It is worth noting, but not for discussion here, but in another thread....

Your John 12:32 compliments 1 Timothy 4:10 more then mine in a way.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Compare  John 12:32 with Jesus'  "will draw all people to myself"  and 1 Timothy 4:10  "Who is the Saviour of all men,"

Kind of actually says it.... doesn't it...that all will be saved, in the end?

Timothy does not tell us He is the Savior of those that believe... he says all.

And your John says Jesus will draw ALL people to Himself.  ::shrug::


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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #33 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 02:52:03 »
Yes it is my humanistic reasoning.  And you can't rebut it except by your own humanistic reasoning. And by the way, if you disagree with my humanistic reasoning, then what do you think Jesus meant when He said, "But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you"(Mat 11:22), ?
Here I go again jumping into a post directed to another person, I need to break this bad habit that 4WD taught me~bad habits once learned are hard to get rid of.

When I saw you quoted Matthew 11:22, yesterday, I thought to myself ::pondering:: I quoted that earlier in the week and made a different application to it and now all I did was to stir up 4WD's memory about such verses, but that's okay.

It will be more tolerable for a certain individual, cites, and nations in the day of judgment than for others~that's one of the benefits for the gospel being preached for it does restain men's lustful evil passions, but it CANNOT regenerate evil wicked men, only the power of God can do so.

So, humanistic reasoning is not evil if that person is reasoning and coming to a position of truth based upon THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD~and he submits all of his thoughts to God's testimony of what IS THE TRUTH. No man should come testing God's testimony to see if it is in line of what he THINKS God should do "if he was God", which truly is the mother of all false doctrines and it's what many do say to say! Selah
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 02:54:17 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #34 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 03:24:23 »
Your John 12:32 compliments 1 Timothy 4:10 more then mine in a way.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Compare  John 12:32 with Jesus'  "will draw all people to myself"  and 1 Timothy 4:10  "Who is the Saviour of all men,"

Kind of actually says it.... doesn't it...that all will be saved, in the end?
Your post kinda reminded me of a movie I saw about 30 years ago called Ghost with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore and Whoopi Goldberg.  Whoopi Goldberg played Oda Mae Brown, an eccentric psychic, who Patrick Swayne took and clean up and used her eccentric psychic powers. When she went into the bank to withdraw the money she did not know when to stop talking! You did very well until you got down to speaking about  1st Timothy 4:10. Let me help just a little with this scripture~ it is not even talking about the same subject of John 12:32..... totally different. To get the true meaning of 1st Timothy 4:10 we need to follow the CONTEXT and let our MASTER~"Mr. Context" guide our understanding.
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 4:3-10~"Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
God is the Saviour of ALL MEN.....BUT, specially is He to believers! Saviour in these scriptures has reference to SUPPLYING our FOOD~and he did this by creating EVERY CREATURE to be our source of FOOD~regardless of certain wives fables from false prophets preaching that Christians should ABSTAIN from certain meats, etc. have to preach! God even supplies the needs of unbelievers but he ESPECIALLY does so to BELIEVERS who are the apple of His Holy eyes.

There~ that's the TRUE understanding of Paul's words from 1st Timothy 4:10....... that scriptures has nothing to do with SALVATION from sin and condemnation.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 03:30:05 by RB »

 

     
anything