Author Topic: The Sinner vs. Free Will  (Read 4708 times)

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Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #35 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:08:46 »
It will be more tolerable for a certain individual, cites, and nations in the day of judgment than for others~that's one of the benefits for the gospel being preached for it does restain men's lustful evil passions, but it CANNOT regenerate evil wicked men, only the power of God can do so.
First, that was an answer back to the charge that the reward in heaven and the reward in hell will not be in relation to the person being rewarded.  In truth Neither heaven nor hell is a one-size-fits-all.  There will be various levels of reward in both heaven and hell.  At least that is what I believe from what little God has said about it.

Second, as it relates to regeneration, RB, no one that I know says that anyone other than God can regenerate evil wicked men.  So that is not the issue.  The question is which evil wicked men does God regenerate; how are those evil wicked men chosen.  Well, Jesus in Matthew 11:20-21, the verses just before the one about a more tolerable day of judgment, says  Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.   Therefore God's choice of who He regenerates is definitely dependent upon the person.  Regeneration and hence salvation are not independent of the person as you, Reformed Theology, and Calvinism demand; Regeneration and salvation are not unconditional.  Election is not unconditional.  Election is conditional.  Jesus says so. According to your teaching Jesus' denouncing the cities was inappropriate because if God had not regenerated them first, the might works that Jesus did would have led to their repenting.  But in fact Jesus did denounce them.  Jesus says that they would have repented.  That clearly represents repenting as a choice influenced by what they saw and heard.  Although it doesn't say so specifically, it most certainly presents repenting as a prerequisite to regeneration and hence salvation.  Such is the consistent message throughout the Bible, and specifically the NT.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #35 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:08:46 »

Offline RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #36 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:20:07 »
But in fact Jesus did denounce them.  Jesus says that they would have repented.  That clearly represents repenting as a choice influenced by what they saw and heard.  Although it doesn't say so specifically, it most certainly presents repenting as a prerequisite to regeneration and hence salvation.  Such is the consistent message throughout the Bible, and specifically the NT.
I'm leaving in two mintues~for now, let me say that you have a serious dilemma to deal with. and it is this:

"If your reasoning is correct then WHY DID NOT GOD DO MIGHTY WORKS in Sodom and other places if that INDEED could have been the means of them being born of God?"

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #37 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:24:35 »
Speaking about 1 Timothy 4:10 you said the following:
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Compare  John 12:32 with Jesus'  "will draw all people to myself"  and 1 Timothy 4:10  "Who is the Saviour of all men,"

Kind of actually says it.... doesn't it...that all will be saved, in the end?

Timothy does not tell us He is the Savior of those that believe... he says all.

And your John says Jesus will draw ALL people to Himself.  ::shrug::

Jesus is indeed the savior of all men.  But not all men will be saved, and that because not all men will believe and trust.  It is but one more indication that salvation is conditioned upon belief in God; it is not unconditional.

I would note here that believe and trust is the very definition of faith.  Faith is more that simple mental assent.  It is mental assent, i.e., believe, plus trust.  In Scripture that is typically presented as "believe in".

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #37 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:24:35 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #38 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:45:25 »
I'm leaving in two mintues~for now, let me say that you have a serious dilemma to deal with. and it is this:

"If your reasoning is correct then WHY DID NOT GOD DO MIGHTY WORKS in Sodom and other places if that INDEED could have been the means of them being born of God?"

That is no different than the serious dilemma that you have to deal with, and it is this:

"If your reasoning is correct then WHY DID NOT GOD ELECT THOSE in Sodom and other places if that INDEED could have been the means of them being born of God?"

But even more to the point, if it was necessary that God first ELECT THOSE in Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum in order that they would repent and be saved why did Jesus condemn them? According to you, the reason they didn't repent was because God didn't elect them.  Why would Jesus criticize and accuse them for something God didn't do?  Clearly in your soteriology since God had not first elected them, they were doing just as God created them to be and do.  In your soteriology, God imputed Adam's sin to them and had not chose, i.e., elected, them.  How else could they possibly have acted?  Again, since they were, by the very nature that God imputed, incapable of repenting, why would Jesus condemn them for it?

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #38 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 07:45:25 »
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Offline Rella

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #39 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 18:06:22 »
Saviour in these scriptures has reference to SUPPLYING our FOOD~and he did this by creating EVERY CREATURE to be our source of FOOD~regardless of certain wives fables from false prophets preaching that Christians should ABSTAIN from certain meats, etc. have to preach! God even supplies the needs of unbelievers but he ESPECIALLY does so to BELIEVERS who are the apple of His Holy eyes.



Red,

I totally disagree with this.

Quote
"Saviour in these scriptures has reference to SUPPLYING our FOOD~and he did this by creating EVERY CREATURE to be our source of FOOD~regardless of certain wives fables from false prophets preaching that Christians should ABSTAIN from certain meats, etc. have to preach! God even supplies the needs of unbelievers but he ESPECIALLY does so to BELIEVERS who are the apple of His Holy eyes. "

I read this chapter as an admonition against those who would depart from the faith and follow false gods and yes,even devils.

It is only in verse 3 that food even enters the conversation regarding the commands of false religions...

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

But is corrected in vs 4 and 5

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


It is verse 10 that  mentions the savior of all...

8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


But no matter how YOU wish to spin it this is NOT referencing food which God does supply to all.

Rather it is more in line with  God's will that none should perish but that all men should come to repentance and turn from their sin and be saved.

We know the Lord Jesus Christ came to die for the sins of the whole world - and not only for those who would one day trust Him as Saviour.

Jesus IS the Saviour of the whole world and He bore the sum total of all the accumulated sin of the entire human race upon His shoulders on Calvary's cross.

Jesus became accursed of God, so that whoever would look to Him for life would be saved.

Surly you CANNOT argue this?

Or

That God provided adequate provision for the salvation of every single man, woman and child, by faith and is the reason Paul, the actual author of 1 Timothy, can legitimately call the Lord Jesus Christ, “the Saviour of all men.'

Christ's death on the cross paid the redemption price for the sin of the whole of humanity - so that whosoever believes on Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

We understand that although the debt for mankind's sin has been paid in full, not everyone will receive God's amazing free gift of grace, for the forgiveness of sins

While everyman has the potential for salvation those who reject His free gift of grace.. by faith alone in Christ alone, will one day be fully and finally separated from God.

But the actual way it is written... which is in line with original Greek Interlinear,

For this for we toil and strive because we have hope on [the]God living who is [the] Savior of all men especially of believers

makes it sound like what I was hinting at.... God who is the Savior of all men, certainly makes it appear as if all will be saved... no matter,but a good example of why things can and will be misunderstood.[/size][/size]

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #39 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 18:06:22 »



Offline johntwayne

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #40 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 18:06:52 »
First, that was an answer back to the charge that the reward in heaven and the reward in hell will not be in relation to the person being rewarded.  In truth Neither heaven nor hell is a one-size-fits-all.  There will be various levels of reward in both heaven and hell.  At least that is what I believe from what little God has said about it.

Second, as it relates to regeneration, RB, no one that I know says that anyone other than God can regenerate evil wicked men.  So that is not the issue.  The question is which evil wicked men does God regenerate; how are those evil wicked men chosen.  Well, Jesus in Matthew 11:20-21, the verses just before the one about a more tolerable day of judgment, says  Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.   Therefore God's choice of who He regenerates is definitely dependent upon the person.  Regeneration and hence salvation are not independent of the person as you, Reformed Theology, and Calvinism demand; Regeneration and salvation are not unconditional.  Election is not unconditional.  Election is conditional.  Jesus says so. According to your teaching Jesus' denouncing the cities was inappropriate because if God had not regenerated them first, the might works that Jesus did would have led to their repenting.  But in fact Jesus did denounce them.  Jesus says that they would have repented.  That clearly represents repenting as a choice influenced by what they saw and heard.  Although it doesn't say so specifically, it most certainly presents repenting as a prerequisite to regeneration and hence salvation.  Such is the consistent message throughout the Bible, and specifically the NT.

Excellent Post

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #40 on: Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 18:06:52 »

Offline RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #41 on: Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 04:59:50 »
Red, I totally disagree with this.
It does not surprise me.
Quote from: Rella
« on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
I read this chapter as an admonition against those who would depart from the faith and follow false gods and yes,even devils.
You cannot assume that the whole chapter is addressing those who depart from the faith by teaching doctrines of devils when that only takes up a few words~then after Paul mentioned that he proves why he said that such people were giving heed to seducing spirits~ and once he proves this he moves on to proves that ALL CREATURES are good for food and were created for ALL MEN"S survival and health....but especially his God the saviour of those that believe~then he exhorts Timothy about the means of saving himself and those that hears him~saving himself in a practical sense of course from such people who depart from the faith!
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
But no matter how YOU wish to spin it this is NOT referencing food which God does supply to all.
I do not desire and neither do I have to put a spin on these scriptures, I do something you have not yet learn to do and that is let God be his own interpreter of his word~and that I do by distinctly reading the context and then I give the sense that alone allows those that hear me stand what they are reading if they truly desire to do so. Savior in 1st Timothy 4:10 is NOT speaking of salvation from sin and condemnation~you cannot even force that sense in these scriptures, even if you try to do so~it would not work~it would be like trying to attempt to put a camel through an eye of a needle~it is not going to fit.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
Rather it is more in line with  God's will that none should perish but that all men should come to repentance and turn from their sin and be saved.
Well, if you are going to quote from God's word, then please, quote it correctly.
Quote from: Peter
2nd Peter 3:9~"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
The only connection between 1st Timothy 4:10 and this verse would be this: " specially of those that believe and that God is longsuffering to US-WARD "~God is the Savior of ALL MEN'S natural life by providing for our daily need of food and drink~but specially so to his own~in 2nd Peter 3:9 the reason given for Christ not returning is that God is longsuffering to USWARD~his chosen seed, not willing that any of them to perish and they WILL NOT!
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
Jesus IS the Saviour of the whole world and He bore the sum total of all the accumulated sin of the entire human race upon His shoulders on Calvary's cross. Jesus became accursed of God, so that whoever would look to Him for life would be saved. Surly you CANNOT argue this
God's word said that doctrine is a doctrine of devils! Jesus Christ came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins~He did take away the sins of the world meaning JEWS and GENTILES not just for the Jews, yet the world is not his people, only the children of God's promise are the very elect. Salvation from sin and condemnation was SECURED by two immutable acts of God~HIS HOLY OATH and HIS HOLY PROMISES~out works have not one thing to do with securing our right to eternal life, that doctrine is from the pits of hell. THis could take pages which it may yet come to this but for now let me ask you a question:

" What does DOUBLE JEOPARDY mean to you? " The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. The relevant part of the Fifth Amendment states, "No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . . . "

This is man's law~do you not think that God's laws are MORE RIGHTEOUS than man's? They certainly are! If Jesus, as you think, died for every single person of Adam's sinful race, then the JUSTICE of GOD must aqquit and set them FREE from the condemnation of God's broken law. God would be UNJUST to punish TWICE for the same crimes/sins~the ONLY reason why sinners are forgiven is that Christ died for THAT SINNER, and paid IN FULL his sin debt.

I use this point because it makes a quick point without spending a lot of time PROVING just how corrupt anyone's doctrine is if they believe that Christ paid the sin debt for every single person.
Quote from: Luke and Jesus
Luke 19:5-9~"And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
A TRUE son by God's election, any other sense would make NO SENSE biblical speaking.

Maybe more later.

« Last Edit: Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 05:07:31 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #42 on: Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 07:49:13 »
Red,

I totally disagree with this.
And you are right to do so.  So much of what RB posted is wrong.  It is based upon the false Calvinistic teaching. Nearly everything about salvation is turned on its head in that teaching, especially as it relates to who receives it and how he receives it. 

Offline Rella

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #43 on: Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 09:26:14 »


I use this point because it makes a quick point without spending a lot of time PROVING just how corrupt anyone's doctrine is if they believe that Christ paid the sin debt for every single person. A TRUE son by God's election, any other sense would make NO SENSE biblical speaking.




Until I have the time to respond to your response in more depth... I will briefly comment on this statement of yours.

Hebrews 2: 9 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


1 John 22 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


It would appear that you either cherry pick what you want to use to make your point from the Bible OR you believe that not all of God's Holy Words are applicable to all. ( ie you)

Fact is ....Jesus died for everyone..... but the caveat is, not everyone that Jesus died for will be saved.

NO, I do not expect you to understand this. Therefore I will not waste time with explanation.


Until I return.... I rest my case. ::tippinghat::

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #43 on: Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 09:26:14 »

Offline RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #44 on: Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 09:57:03 »
NO, I do not expect you to understand this. Therefore I will not waste time with explanation.
Pretty sure I understand it much better than you do and can reconcile any scriptures that you may present to me that you think may give your gospel some support.
Quote
It would appear that you either cherry pick what you want to use to make your point from the Bible OR you believe that not all of God's Holy Words are applicable to all. ( ie you)
Cherry picking? I have never pick cherries in my life, but DO like The Original Maraschino Cherries in my cocktails ::yummy:: Probably have two or three later on today.

All kidding aside~I would never treat the word of God so disrespectful by cherry-picking my favorites and purposely overlooking others....NEVER, God is my witness!   That is so toward any doctrine~GOD FORBID. But, please, by all means, give your understanding of the two scripture you quoted for the learning of others. Maybe you can shed some light on them, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Btw, those scriptures are easily interpreted BY THE SCRIPTURES themselves. Need help?
Quote from: Rella on: Today at 09:26:14

Until I return.... I rest my case.
If I was a lawyer on other side of the bench trying a case and heard the opposing Lawyer said: "I rest my case"...and he presented no more than what you have~I would say THANK YOU LORD for making this so easy for me to deal with and expose!  ::pray::
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 14:28:58 by RB »

Offline Rella

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #45 on: Sun Aug 30, 2020 - 19:21:09 »
Well try this on...But I know you have claimed victory before I even set a finger to type things.
Quote
Quote from: Rella
Quote
« on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
I read this chapter as an admonition against those who would depart from the faith and follow false gods and yes,even devils.
You cannot assume that the whole chapter is addressing those who depart from the faith by teaching doctrines of devils when that only takes up a few words~then after Paul mentioned that he proves why he said that such people were giving heed to seducing spirits~ and once he proves this he moves on to proves that ALL CREATURES are good for food and were created for ALL MEN"S survival and health....but especially his God the saviour of those that believe~then he exhorts Timothy about the means of saving himself and those that hears him~saving himself in a practical sense of course from such people who depart from the faith!

First, Paul is not simply telling Timothy about saving himself and those that hear him from those that would seduce them away from the faith.

It does not just take up a few words. The concept of those who might be seduced away is covered within the first 5 verses, a hair shy of 1/3of the total. Yes, it says some, but does not go into who those some might be.... but furthers sets up that every creature OF GOD is Good.

A setting up, as it were regarding those who may be seduce away from the proper faith and those who may need to be encouraged back into it.

We quickly see in the next 6  verses, which is an additional 1/3 approximately of the 16 the instruction to "instruct" the brethern, which I interpret to mean all the brethren are to be instructed in the words of faith and of the good doctrine .... and that  godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.


In other words... it is imperative to teach those who may be leaning to departing as well as those who are firm in their faith

And that makes 2/3 of this chapter a solid chapter  addressing those who may depart from the faith by teaching doctrines of devils AND the eed for teaching/instruction.


In a way I see this, but you will not,  as a form of "free will." Case presented for God by Timothy, but some will heed that seductive voice
of evil.


We close this chapter with the final 4verses, a bare 25% of the 16 verses with the

Timothy is to set an example. He is told"Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine." and "Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you."


Not that this means every one who hears him will be saved but those who hear and understand will.The others are those this chapter is about.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22
But no matter how YOU wish to spin it this is NOT referencing food which God does supply to all.

I do not desire and neither do I have to put a spin on these scriptures, I do something you have not yet learn to do and that is let God be his own interpreter of his word~and that I do by distinctly reading the context and then I give the sense that alone allows those that hear me stand what they are reading if they truly desire to do so.

Yes, I see how well that works for you. Others whom you debate with do as you do.
Why is it then that God is supplying different information to different people?
When you are the only one to see and understand what you believe, then you need to ask if you are receiving God properly.


Quote
Savior in 1st Timothy 4:10 is NOT speaking of salvation from sin and condemnation~you cannot even force that sense in these scriptures, even if you try to do so~it would not work~it would be like trying to attempt to put a camel through an eye of a needle~it is not going to fit.

Spin or no spin this is a statement of truth truly stated ,we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men,

Not of salvation of all but you know that and I am beating a dead horse because you know that I know that also


Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22

Rather it is more in line with  God's will that none should perish but that all men should come to repentance and turn from their sin and be saved.
Well, if you are going to quote from God's word, then please, quote it correctly.

Why when I have you to do it for me?



Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:06:22

Jesus IS the Saviour of the whole world and He bore the sum total of all the accumulated sin of the entire human race upon His shoulders on Calvary's cross. Jesus became accursed of God, so that whoever would look to Him for life would be saved. Surly you CANNOT argue this

God's word said that doctrine is a doctrine of devils! Jesus Christ came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins~



So the following scriptures are from the devil?

Then Paul,in 2 Timothy 3:16 was in error when he said
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

As well as....

You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in

1John 2:2 
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29
 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:29
 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Isaiah 53:6
 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Corinthians 5:14
 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

John 12:32
 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You best include what your chosen translationsays about Easter in Acts 12:4 ::doh::

Quit cherry picking.


Quote
He did take away the sins of the world meaning JEWS and GENTILES not just for the Jews, yet the world is not his people, only the children of God's promise are the very elect. Salvation from sin and condemnation was SECURED by two immutable acts of God~HIS HOLY OATH and HIS HOLY PROMISES~out works have not one thing to do with securing our right to eternal life, that doctrine is from the pits of hell.

Finally you are almost making some sense.


Quote
THis could take pages which it may yet come to this but for now let me ask you a question:

" What does DOUBLE JEOPARDY mean to you? " The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. The relevant part of the Fifth Amendment states, "No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . . . "

This is man's law~do you not think that God's laws are MORE RIGHTEOUS than man's? They certainly are! If Jesus, as you think, died for every single person of Adam's sinful race, then the JUSTICE of GOD must aqquit and set them FREE from the condemnation of God's broken law.

No way. And I did not say that.

Quote
If God did that then Ephesians 8 ...For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 God would be UNJUST to punish TWICE for the same crimes/sins~the ONLY reason why sinners are forgiven is that Christ died for THAT SINNER, and paid IN FULL his sin debt.

I use this point because it makes a quick point without spending a lot of time PROVING just how corrupt anyone's doctrine is if they believe that Christ paid the sin debt for every single person.

Who said that? I never said that. You are misunderstanding what I said.

Offline RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #46 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 04:27:29 »
Well try this on...
I did, and it does not fit, and the colors do not match, and, besides, the "tailor" looks like she was drunk on something.

Your post was all over the place making very little biblical sense. Nevertheless, I will comment on a few things.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
First, Paul is not simply telling Timothy about saving himself and those that hear him from those that would seduce them away from the faith. It does not just take up a few words. The concept of those who might be seduced away is covered within the first 5 verses, a hair shy of 1/3of the total. Yes, it says some, but does not go into who those some might be..
"Not simply"~never used those words, yet, Paul did use the about 1/3 of 1st Timothy 4 to exhort Timothy concerning his calling, duties to that calling~ how to be profitable doing so and by doing so the profit that comes from it. 
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 4:12-16~"Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee."
A man of God fulfilling his calling per Paul's outline here to Timothy, will result in saving BOTH himself and his hearers~saving NOT in a sense from sin and condemnation, but strictly in a sense of enjoying God's best for them while living in this world; saving them from God chastening hand per Hebrews 12; saving in the sense of falling into false doctrines of devils; etc etc. etc.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
The concept of those who might be seduced away is covered within the first 5 verses
Well, it is also here "if" one understand how to rightly divide the word of God. If a child of God does not take heed to himself in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity and does not give attendance to reading, to exhortation, prayer and doctrine, then that is like a city without walls, sooner of later they shall be overcome by the devil~even though they can and may recover~ THEY SHALL FALL for sure!
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
In a way I see this, but you will not,  as a form of "free will." Case presented for God by Timothy, but some will heed that seductive voiceof evil.
Children of God HAVE A FREE WILL~in their NEW MAN, the old man Adam is NOT FREE, but is in bondage to the devil himself, sin and the world's lusts that works FREELY in his members~VERY DECEITFULLY I might add.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
Spin or no spin this is a statement of truth truly stated ,we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men,
The only scriptural sense that God is the Saviour of all men is speaking about PROVIDING for their daily. needs and they are not a few, but many. But Paul ads especially for them that believe. helping us to UNDERSTAND in which sense God is the Saviour of all men. Do all men the sun to shine, rain from heaven, air to breathe, etc.~ Yes, they do. Do we need to eat? Do we need witty inventions to keep living? God PROVIDES for ALL, even though few lift their heads to heaven with thanksgiving and love in their hearts for such a great and merciful God.

I'll come back and look at those scriptures that you think will corroborate your understanding.
Quote from: Rella
You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in 1John 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I do not discount them~ I read the precious word of God DISTINCTLY and THEN give the sense......... something you have never learn as of yet, and your time is running out.  Maybe....  ::pickinguprock:: 

Later.....
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 07:43:47 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #47 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 06:26:35 »
Quote
I use this point because it makes a quick point without spending a lot of time PROVING just how corrupt anyone's doctrine is if they believe that Christ paid the sin debt for every single person.

Anyone making such a statement as that just can not read and comprehend what the good word says.

Rella, Already rebuked such a statement above with several verses showing the falsehood of this statement.  Let me repeat it for you.

You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in

1John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29
 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:29
 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Isaiah 53:6
 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Corinthians 5:14
 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

John 12:32
 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
 
Jesus is calling all men through the gospel of Christ and God wants all men to accept and not perish but we know that will not be the case. Jesus died for all men not just some but all and calls all unto him.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Luke 13:3 (KJV)
3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives. The bible could not be more clear. It is its main message. It is the Gospel of Christ.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 06:42:07 by yogi bear »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #48 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 07:26:26 »
Very good, yogi.

::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #49 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 07:33:29 »
I do not discount them~ I read the precious word of God DISTINCTLY and THEN give the sense.........
RB, it seems to me that nearly every time you "read the precious word of God DISTINCTLY and THEN give the sense.........", the sense you give those precious words of God flies in the face of what those precious words of God DISTINCTLY say and mean.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #50 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 10:00:42 »
Anyone making such a statement as that just can not read and comprehend what the good word says.

Rella, Already rebuked such a statement above with several verses showing the falsehood of this statement.  Let me repeat it for you.

You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in

1John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Greetings Yogi, I would love to debate this subject with you~the problem with that is every time I try to get you to do so, you jump ship under the color of darkness...you just slip away into the night and show up a few months later. Let us see if you are willing to stay around this time and consider these scriptures that you posted.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
1st John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This scripture is not hard to understand in light of other scriptures that it truly amazes me that anyone would attempt to use 1st John 2:2 to disprove Christ's particular redemption for his people.

The apostles were sent to the circumcision while Paul and others were sent to the uncircumcision.
Quote from: Paul, a minister to the UNCIRCUMCISION
Galatians 2:7-9~"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
John writing to the circumcision is telling them That Jesus was not only the propitiation for their sin (to those he was writing to, NOT to ALL of the Jews, just to those who were the children of God's promises among the Jews) but that he is for the whole world~meaning without DISTINCTION, not the whole world without EXCEPTION for we KNOW God makes an exception among BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
Quote from: James, Jude's brother
Acts 15:14~"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name."
1st John 2;2 does NOT give any support to universal atonement for all without an exception~that position will end up putting scriptures against scriptures. 1st Corinthians chapter one is a classic example, etc.

Later we shall consider some more of the ones you and Rella posted. I will look at all of them IF you and others will consider some on the ones I have for you.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 14:13:31 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #51 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 10:41:06 »
Red, I do not debate with you because it does no one any good. We have been over this many a time and one of us can not see the truth. I just try to point out some very clear miss use of words as you said Jesus DB&R was not for every man but the word clearly says it is that is the Gospel of Christ. I do not plan to go down your rabbit trail again I will stand by what I posted.

Two points I want to make.

1. There is only one Gospel of Christ. It is the same for the Jew and the gentile. Just because Peter delivered it to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles does not change one thing in the Gospel of Christ. They both preached the same gospel.

2. You said "1st John 2;2 does NOT give any support to universal atonement for all without an exception" this I agree. The exception is free will. The atonement is for all that will accept. The gospel call is sent to all men but not all will accept.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #52 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 12:06:03 »
Anyone making such a statement as that just can not read and comprehend what the good word says.

Rella, Already rebuked such a statement above with several verses showing the falsehood of this statement.  Let me repeat it for you.

You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in

1John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29
 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:29
 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Isaiah 53:6
 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Corinthians 5:14
 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

John 12:32
 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
 
Jesus is calling all men through the gospel of Christ and God wants all men to accept and not perish but we know that will not be the case. Jesus died for all men not just some but all and calls all unto him.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Luke 13:3 (KJV)
3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives. The bible could not be more clear. It is its main message. It is the Gospel of Christ.

Thanks for supplying additional scriptures to mine.

This

"Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives."

is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC. ::tippinghat::

It truly says it all.


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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #53 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 12:53:37 »

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on Yesterday at 19:21:09



Well try this on...
I did, and it does not fit, and the colors do not match, and, besides, the "tailor" looks like she was drunk on something.

The only thing I get drunk on is the guidance I receive when I am in God's Holy Word and being guided to understanding with clarity.

It was not I who was smacking my lips for cherries in my afternoon cocktails
.


.Cherry picking? I have never pick cherries in my life, but DO like The Original Maraschino Cherries in my cocktails ::yummy:: Probably have two or three later on today.



That might explain why your  comprehension is questionable at times.


Quote
Your post was all over the place making very little biblical sense. Nevertheless, I will comment on a few things.

Funny you say it was all over the place. I copied your reply and ran down through it in the order you posted it,just leaving out nonsensical items deserving no comment.


Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
The concept of those who might be seduced away is covered within the first 5 verses
Well, it is also here "if" one understand how to rightly divide the word of God.

You need to look into a mirror.
Quote

Quote
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 19:21:09
Spin or no spin this is a statement of truth truly stated ,we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men,

The only scriptural sense that God is the Saviour of all men is speaking about PROVIDING for their daily. needs and they are not a few, but many.( say what?)  But Paul ads especially for them that believe. helping us to UNDERSTAND in which sense God is the Saviour of all men. Do all men the sun to shine, rain from heaven, air to breathe, etc.~ Yes, they do. Do we need to eat? Do we need witty inventions to keep living? God PROVIDES for ALL, even though few lift their heads to heaven with thanksgiving and love in their hearts for such a great and merciful God.

Tell this to those in the breadlines these days. Tell this to those living in the Appalachians. Tell this who live in the bad parts of town and across the tracks.
Tell this to those women who of necessity make a living on their backs....
Tell this to those who are living below the poverty level in the US...
Tell this to those women who are beaten so badly and thrown down a flight of stairs.
Tell this to the homeless. Tell this to the woman whose husband just walked out one day not even leaving her with money for a loaf of bread for the kids.
And on and on and on....

YOU ARE SO WRONG on this one, it makes me want to.... Well, use your imagination
.



Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rella
You cannot discount where it has said that Jesus died for all the world as it does in 1John 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I do not discount them~ I read the precious word of God DISTINCTLY and THEN give the sense.........

And oh so proudly you would never admit to being wrong. So many times
you have pointed out you do not ever look back to older texts because your mind gathers from what was written in 1611. And from that you feel you cannot make a mistake.


Quote
something you have never learn as of yet,

I have learned when something does not seem right I seek and I find. And I have learned that I let God direct me to my beliefs and understanding which he gives to me differently then to you, obviously.

Tell me:

Do you see anything wrong in this verse from John 12:32?King JamesVersion

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ?[/size]

Quote
and your time is running out.  Maybe....  ::pickinguprock::

You wish

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #54 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 13:51:16 »
Tell this to those in the breadlines these days. Tell this to those living in the Appalachians. Tell this who live in the bad parts of town and across the tracks.
Tell this to those women who of necessity make a living on their backs....
Tell this to those who are living below the poverty level in the US...
Tell this to those women who are beaten so badly and thrown down a flight of stairs.
Tell this to the homeless. Tell this to the woman whose husband just walked out one day not even leaving her with money for a loaf of bread for the kids.
And on and on and on....

YOU ARE SO WRONG on this one, it makes me want to.... Well, use your imagination.
I'm not going to waste time with fools, and I could bury you with scriptures that most likely you have never read nor consider, but I will refrain from so doing so.
Quote from: David knew that God provides for all~man and beast of the fields.
Psalm 145:15,16~The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season. Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
They neither sow nor gather into barns yet they continue to live unto this very day in multitudes.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 6:26~"Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
The only person wrong on this is the one who does not believe the scripture~btw, most homeless folks are those who refuse to get with the program and some too lazy to work~homeless in America is nearly inexcusable, there may be a rare, very rare case where it is not. Regardless it still does not take away that God has richly provided for our needs, our part is to ARISE, KILL, AND EAT, which some are too lazy to do!

 

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #55 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 14:07:54 »
Thanks for supplying additional scriptures to mine.

This

"Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives."

is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC. ::tippinghat::

It truly says it all.
This post shows more your ignorance than a person that has understanding.  Maybe I need to address this which Yogi posted:
Quote
Luke 13:3 (KJV)
3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives. The bible could not be more clear. It is its main message. It is the Gospel of Christ.
The gospel according to Yogi INCLUDES water baptism for the remission of your sins.

Now let me ask you~"would you also agree is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC? Or, are going to leave his amen corner and go and find a church that agrees more like you do? Actually you should just stay put, for you both have a gospel that is based on works and not grace.

I'll address all of his scriptures and not pass over one of them~but so far NO ONE has even addressed this:
Quote from: RB on: Sat Aug 29, 2020 - 04:59:50

" What does DOUBLE JEOPARDY mean to you? " The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. The relevant part of the Fifth Amendment states, "No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . . . "

This is man's law~do you not think that God's laws are MORE RIGHTEOUS than man's? They certainly are! If Jesus, as you think, died for every single person of Adam's sinful race, then the JUSTICE of GOD must aqquit and set them FREE from the condemnation of God's broken law. God would be UNJUST to punish TWICE for the same crimes/sins~the ONLY reason why sinners are forgiven is that Christ died for THAT SINNER, and paid IN FULL his sin debt.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #56 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 14:26:17 »
Quote
" What does DOUBLE JEOPARDY mean to you? " The Double Jeopardy Clause in the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for substantially the same crime. The relevant part of the Fifth Amendment states, "No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb . . . . "

This is man's law~do you not think that God's laws are MORE RIGHTEOUS than man's? They certainly are! If Jesus, as you think, died for every single person of Adam's sinful race, then the JUSTICE of GOD must aqquit and set them FREE from the condemnation of God's broken law. God would be UNJUST to punish TWICE for the same crimes/sins~the ONLY reason why sinners are forgiven is that Christ died for THAT SINNER, and paid IN FULL his sin debt.

Red, you are missing the point. The DB&R is offered to all but not one will receive the gift unless they repent and obey the Gospel of Christ.

Not one is being punished twice but refuse to be rescued from the punishment. The gift is offered one must accept. Only then is one not punished.

We all know salvation is not universal but conditional it is the condition we can't agree upon.

Red, it is recorded in Acts 2 as to how one is saved and God adds those being saved to the church.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #57 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 14:33:37 »
1. There is only one Gospel of Christ. It is the same for the Jew and the gentile. Just because Peter delivered it to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles does not change one thing in the Gospel of Christ. They both preached the same gospel.

2. You said "1st John 2;2 does NOT give any support to universal atonement for all without an exception" this I agree. The exception is free will. The atonement is for all that will accept. The gospel call is sent to all men but not all will accept.
Yogi, without question you ar every sincere in what you have been taught, the problem is you have been taught wrong.

I KNOW that there is only one gospel~and it is the same for all~Paul and the apostles preach CHRIST, and that the righteousness of God by which sinners are FREELY JUSTIFIED was secured by Jesus Christ's obedience, not ours~yet their writings were sent to the very ones they went unto~ so, knowing that to be so, they would use words that WE MUST READ AND give them their proper sense~just as I did above~that would be handling the word of God in the way in which it was intended to be understood.
Quote from: Yogi on: Today at 10:41:06
2. You said "1st John 2;2 does NOT give any support to universal atonement for all without an exception" this I agree. The exception is free will.
You need to better explain what you meant by that before I can respond. Before you do, let it be said form the scriptures that man's ha snot one thing to do with him being born of God.
Quote
John 1:13~Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
These words are so clear~ they need no explaining..... John removes BOTH the will of the flesh and the will of a preacher from the new birth~leaving ONLY God present when a man is born again! Salvation is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth (worketh) BUT OF GOD that wills to show mercy.

« Last Edit: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 14:41:33 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #58 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 14:39:21 »
Red, it is recorded in Acts 2 as to how one is saved and God adds those being saved to the church.
Yogi, I LOVE your sincerity, I TRULY DO, just reject your understanding. That being said, would you mind sharing the pulpit with Rella as we discuss Acts 2? This should be really interesting... ::swordfight:: 

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #59 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 15:10:55 »
Quote
Quote

    John 1:13~Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

These words are so clear~ they need no explaining..... John removes BOTH the will of the flesh and the will of a preacher from the new birth~leaving ONLY God present when a man is born again! Salvation is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth (worketh) BUT OF GOD that wills to show mercy.

If you do not strip that verse out of context you could see that it is referring to Jesus as the word and yes man is born of God receives his word.

John 1:1-14 (KJV)
1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2  The same was in the beginning with God.
3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6  There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8  He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #60 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 16:18:28 »
Since I am a fool to you, feel free to not read further.

Quote
I'm not going to waste time with fools, and I could bury you with scriptures that most likely you have never read nor consider, but I will refrain from so doing so.



This

"Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives."

is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC.
::tippinghat::

It truly says it all.

Quote
This post shows more your ignorance than a person that has understanding.  Maybe I need to address this which Yogi posted:
Quote
Luke 13:3 (KJV)
3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Quote
Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives. The bible could not be more clear. It is its main message. It is the Gospel of Christ.
The gospel according to Yogi INCLUDES water baptism for the remission of your sins
.

Quote
Now let me ask you~"would you also agree is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC? Or, are going to leave his amen corner and go and find a church that agrees more like you do? Actually you should just stay put, for you both have a gospel that is based on works and not grace
.[/quote]

I KNOW, as much as  you do exactly who in this forum is in the baptize to be saved mode.

I also know who, inclusive of you believes once you believe you need to be baptised.

OH excuse me... I did not phrase that so YOU can understand. But you know what you believe so dont bother correcting me, cause I do too.

There IS NOT one thing wrong in that statement of Yogi's.


You quote this

Quote
Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Be baptized to receive the Holy Ghost....

This is not Mark16:16 or even 1Peter 3:21

It applies to every single person

IT DOES NOT SAY ANYONE IS SAVED.

We are told... we are all told why Jesus was crucified and shed his blood. But we have to accept this or we are lost eternally.

Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives.

Do you think Jesus died only for those already saved? Wouldn't that have been silly in light of the fact that those who embraced Christ, while he was alive, were already assured of their eternal heavenly home.

Jesus did need to die  for them. Jesus' death  was part of a divine plan to save humanity. The death and resurrection of this one man is at the very heart of the Christian faith. For Christians it is through Jesus's death that people's broken relationship with God is restored. This is known as the Atonement.

Do I have to explain atonement to you?
To atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God.

Jesus was the only one capable of carrying out the "Atonement"' for all mankind.

But that in itself was not enough. Man had to come to Jesus in belief and acceptance of what He had done for him.

There is nothing Yogi said that is wrong. It is spot on.




Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #61 on: Mon Aug 31, 2020 - 19:29:14 »
Since I am a fool to you, feel free to not read further.



This

"Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives."

is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC.
::tippinghat::

It truly says it all.
.
.

I KNOW, as much as  you do exactly who in this forum is in the baptize to be saved mode.

I also know who, inclusive of you believes once you believe you need to be baptised.

OH excuse me... I did not phrase that so YOU can understand. But you know what you believe so dont bother correcting me, cause I do too.

There IS NOT one thing wrong in that statement of Yogi's.


You quote this

Be baptized to receive the Holy Ghost....

This is not Mark16:16 or even 1Peter 3:21

It applies to every single person

IT DOES NOT SAY ANYONE IS SAVED.

We are told... we are all told why Jesus was crucified and shed his blood. But we have to accept this or we are lost eternally.

Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives.

Do you think Jesus died only for those already saved? Wouldn't that have been silly in light of the fact that those who embraced Christ, while he was alive, were already assured of their eternal heavenly home.

Jesus did need to die  for them. Jesus' death  was part of a divine plan to save humanity. The death and resurrection of this one man is at the very heart of the Christian faith. For Christians it is through Jesus's death that people's broken relationship with God is restored. This is known as the Atonement.

Do I have to explain atonement to you?
To atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God.

Jesus was the only one capable of carrying out the "Atonement"' for all mankind.

But that in itself was not enough. Man had to come to Jesus in belief and acceptance of what He had done for him.

There is nothing Yogi said that is wrong. It is spot on.


There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance.  A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.  A planet of playthings, we dance on the strings, of powers we cannot percieve.  The stars aren't aligned, or the gods are malign, blame is better to give than recieve.

You can choose a ready guide, in some celestial voice.  If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.  You can choose from phantom fears, and kindness that can kill.  I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose free will.   ::tippinghat::

Offline RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #62 on: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 03:56:42 »
Do I have to explain atonement to you?
You have not even as of yet, explain anything that is according to God's testimony of his truth. The more you talk, you are only showing how little you understand.
Quote
"Jesus died for all and gave a choice either we repent and accept the gospel or reject the gift that Jesus gives." is one of the most important statements of truth, truly stated that I have ever read here on GC
You making that statement and God's word agreeing with it are world's apart. The truth is this: "God created Adam and Eve in his image WITH A FREE WILL to continue in the state in which he created them~and then placed then in a perfect world giving them every conceivable opportunity to love and serve him, giving them only one simple commandment to keep, and we know the story, do we not? The only thing God did not do for them was to secured them in the state in which he created them as he did some angels, some he did not.

The TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ is that God sent his Son into the world to secured eternal life for his chosen seed~under the new covenant God's people are PROMISED eternal life by God's holy OATH which cannot fail but will come to pass~for the new covenant is founded on these two immutable acts of God. Which was not promised under the covenant of works given to Adam and renew in further light to the children of Israel.
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 6:13-19~"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;"
My hope of eternal life is NOT by my works in the least, why should I believe that lie when Adam could not earn eternal life by his obedience in a flesh that was created after God's image in wisdom, knowledge and true holiness? I'm very thankful for the NEW COVENANT of pure grace that secured by right to eternal life THROUGH GOD'S FAITHFULNESS in keeping his promises of grace! David dedicated a whole Psalm in singing about God's faithfulness in the New Covenant made with Jesus Christ as its HEAD. READ Psalm 89 and consider why David was singing of God's FAITHFULNESS, never about his free will in receiving the blessing of eternal life~that's another gospel.

Read Galatians four and there see God's holy oath at work in the birth of Isaac~and consider that we just like Isaac are children of God's PROMISES, not children who earn salvation through their free will!

You have Galatians four in your bible prove what I'm saying is not according to God's truth. You have Psalm 89 in your bible prove that it is not saying what I just said that it does.

Offline RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #63 on: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 04:34:14 »
If you do not strip that verse out of context you could see that it is referring to Jesus as the word and yes man is born of God receives his word.
Yogi, I did not strip John 1:13 out of its context, I actually was laboring to keep my post short, so as not to wear out those that read everything as I do.
Quote from: Yogi  on: Yesterday at 15:10:55
"you could see that it is referring to Jesus as the word and yes man is born of God receives his word"
No, I truly do not see where it is said Jesus is the Word, I DO see where it said that the Word WAS GOD, not Jesus! Jesus is the Son of God born two thousand years ago, he was NOT in the beginning with God as the Son of God, (ONLY IN HIS DIVINE NATURE BEING GOD...period! )  Now we DO agree that Jesus was a complex person~fully God, and fully man born of a virgin woman named Mary.

Nevertheless, let us get to the subject of our conversation, you quoted:
Quote
John 1:1-14 (KJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man ( JEWS AND GENTILES~RB ) that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Yogi, my friend, I love these scriptures and by following the context it only serve my position MUCH BETTER!

Consider the flow of John's words: "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not"~never a man spake as Jesus spake, never a man lived so righteously as he lived, yet men IN DARKNESS could not comprehend when LEFT to themselves!

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.In his divine nature AS GOD, he created all things, yet when he came into the world, the world DID NOT KNOW HIM and even hated him for no reason OTHER than for the TRUTH he preached and lived!

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.He came unto the Jewish nation and they killed him for no other reason than for his love for God and God's testimony of THE TRUTH.
Quote from: John
John 1:12,13~"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12 EXPLAINS the reason why some DID receive him while other men did not! The POWER or RIGHt was given TO THEM! John 1:13 is a COMMENTARY on verse 12! The flow of the context IS what guides our understanding of not only here in John chapter one, but in all scriptures. Man's so-called free will is denied in John 1:13 by the word of God! I'll go with God, it would be unwise and wicked to do otherwise.



« Last Edit: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 04:43:22 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #64 on: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 06:20:01 »
Quote
The Sinner vs. Free Will And Capability
The human will should be studied consecutively, in its four stages: innocence, fallen, grace, and glory in order to fully understand man's will.

God created man upright and declared him very good in the Garden of Eden with a free will. God declared man very good (Genesis 1:31), and Adam willed to obey God (Genesis 2:19; 3:8).

God’s inspired revelation declares that man was created upright, but he has fallen. To keep this short only references will be provided. (Ecclesiastes 7:29). Adam’s death the day he ate in rebellion was the death of his free will (Genesis 2:17 cp 5:5).Read of his fear that caused him to hide from God’s presence in the Garden (Genesis 3:8-10). We can read of the proud and unrepentant attitude that blamed Eve for his sin (Genesis 3:12). In Eden, Adam was created with a will free to choose righteousness or to choose sin.

When man fell and died in that day, his will died as to any affectionate desire toward God. Dead in trespasses and sins, man is only subject to Satan’s will (Ephesians 2:1-3 cp 2nd Timothy 2:26). He has no understanding or fear of God and will not seek Him (Romans 3:9-18). He has no place in his heart for God’s word or understanding of it (John 8:43,47). His heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). Due to the pride of his fallen nature, man will not seek or think about God (Psalm 10:4). Fallen man will not come to Christ, since he hates the light (John 3:19-21; 5:40). This is true of all men per Romans 3.

Since he hates God and His things, man cannot obey or please God (Romans 8:7-8). His mind is so corrupt and void of virtue, he cannot receive God (Ist Corinthians 2:14). His will is so perverted against right thinking that he will worship trees (Isaiah 44:9-20). As fallen, man’s will is bound to sin, but free from righteousness (Romans 6:16-20). No matter how much influence is applied, man’s will is corrupt (Isaiah 26:10; Luke 16:31). That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and there is no desire toward spiritual things at all~a strong enmity against God per God's own testimony who knows the hearts of all men BETTER than they know themselves!

When man is regenerated and quickened by grace, his will is restored to Adam’s state. God’s people become willing in the day of His power (Psalm 110:3 cp Philippians 2:13). We strive here with a willing spirit and an unwilling flesh (Matthew 26:41 cp Romans 7:18-25). God does not allow events where our will cannot choose righteousness (Ist Corinthians 10:13). After regeneration, man has two spirits, which choose righteousness or sin, respectively. In this state, man is free to righteousness or sin by exploiting either spirit by his will. Even after we are born again, we have total warfare between the flesh and spirit (Galatians 5:17).

When man is glorified in heaven, his will shall be made perfectly holy in its affections. The resurrection shall free us finally from the corruption of the flesh (Romans 8:19-23), but not until then.
In a glorified state before God, we shall only will God’s righteousness (Revelation 21:27).

Man’s four states are (a) freedom to fall, (b) freedom from righteousness, (c) freedom to righteousness, and (d) freedom from falling.

We preach the gospel to those who are regenerated, so we can reach a will able to believe. We strive to emphasize good works, because we are free to righteousness or to sin. Pharaoh truly thought he was making his own decisions, and he did them voluntarily without coercion; but the blessed God had purposed and restrained him from any rational thought (Ex 9:16).

Satan, like Adam, was created with the power of volition, an ability to will; and he chose to sin. Joseph’s brothers only thought about getting rid of Joseph, but God overruled it for their salvation!

The will of man is not involved in the matter of salvation~ legal or vital (John 1:13; Romans 9:16). Far lower in the order of things is our dependence on the will of God for minor events (Jas 4:13-15).We may choose to do this or that, but our choice is entirely dependent on God’s will for blessing. Since we do not know or understand God’s will, we simply do what we should do (Eccl 11:5-6).

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #65 on: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 06:24:53 »
John 1:12 EXPLAINS the reason why some DID receive him while other men did not! The POWER or RIGHt was given TO THEM! John 1:13 is a COMMENTARY on verse 12! The flow of the context IS what guides our understanding of not only here in John chapter one, but in all scriptures. Man's so-called free will is denied in John 1:13 by the word of God! I'll go with God, it would be unwise and wicked to do otherwise.
RB, there are some passages of Scripture that one might legitimately argue your point of view.  But John 12-13, in fact the whole passage of John 1:1-14, is not one of them. You have it backward; yogi is absolutely correct.

John 1:12  But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

That verse DOES NOT explain why some men did receive him while other men did not.  Rather it explains to whom He gave the right to become children of God; and who were they?  They were the ones who received him; the ones who believed in His name.  It was they, the ones who received him, to whom He gave the right to become children of God.

That should be obvious to anyone with even a modicum of reading comprehension.  He gave the right to become children of God to everyone who received Him i.e., to everyone who believed in His name.  Verse 13 then explains what is meant by "children of God.  The children of God are those who are regenerated; the children of God are born again; they are born of God.  John, the author of this fourth gospel, does not at this time explain how one becomes born of God; But he does explain who becomes born of God.  Receiving, i.e., believing, is the prerequisite being born of God. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #66 on: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 07:15:23 »
The Sinner vs. Free Will And Capability
RB, I don't know where you got that piece; it isn't yours.  It isn't written as you write. I don't know whose it is, but I know one thing -- it is a load of crap.

Quote
Adam’s death the day he ate in rebellion was the death of his free will (Genesis 2:17 cp 5:5).
There is not one word in either of those verses that says anything about the death of Adam's free will!

Quote
Dead in trespasses and sins, man is only subject to Satan’s will (Ephesians 2:1-3 cp 2nd Timothy 2:26).
Neither of those verses says that man is ONLY subject to Satan's will.

Quote
He has no understanding or fear of God and will not seek Him (Romans 3:9-18).
I realize that your theology likes to read that passage as all inclusive; however if you truly wish to do that, then you must put yourself in that category as well.  If that is describing all mankind, then obviously you are in there as well. There is nothing there that excludes you from being one of them.

Quote
When man is regenerated and quickened by grace, his will is restored to Adam’s state.
If by Adam's state is meant a sin-free state, then that is absolutely wrong.  When man is regenerated, he is forgiven. He does not become sinless, his sin does not go away. In addition to being forgiven of his sins, he is given the indwelling Holy Spirit to help him in doing God's will, but he is not sinless.

Quote
After regeneration, man has two spirits, which choose righteousness or sin, respectively.
Complete nonsense. After regeneration, it is the sinner's spirit, dead in his trespasses and sins, that is revived to its original state as God formed it in each man (Zech 12:1)

Quote
The will of man is not involved in the matter of salvation~ legal or vital (John 1:13; Romans 9:16)
I have already debunked that nonsense about John 1:13 in reply #65 above.  The will of man is absolutely involved.  It is involved in receiving, in believing in God and in Jesus.  The will of man is not the agent of salvation; that is only God, but it is the will of the man who believes, who receives.
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 07:18:04 by 4WD »

Offline Rella

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #67 on: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 07:18:40 »
There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance.  A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.  A planet of playthings, we dance on the strings, of powers we cannot percieve.  The stars aren't aligned, or the gods are malign, blame is better to give than recieve.

You can choose a ready guide, in some celestial voice.  If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.  You can choose from phantom fears, and kindness that can kill.  I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose free will.   ::tippinghat::

Well my friend.

I could almost believe you are Kenneth Subletts cloned.  rofl  But alas you did not include an exhaustive  list of scriptures with your commentary.

In any event.

I understand exactly what you are saying.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #68 on: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 07:51:11 »
You have not even as of yet, explain anything that is according to God's testimony of his truth. The more you talk, you are only showing how little you understand.





RB,

 ::bowing::  I will shut up. To you.

It takes a certain amount of grey matter to understand what is being said and I have noticed when you do not,  or if you cannot counter with a definitive reply you lash out with your same old " You have not even as of yet, explain anything that is according to God's testimony of his truth." (Or variations of the same theme)

And then keep right on espousing your perceived doctrine. Yes, I did use that because you are so firmly planted in your ideologies that your beliefs even supercede basic or studied principles.

So have fun with your friends.





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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #69 on: Tue Sep 01, 2020 - 07:55:56 »
RB, it looks as if you are in the minority again in this discussion...always a good place to be, since truth is never well accepted by the generality.

I’ll just present one brief question to your detractors for the time being: 

Who takes the initiative to instigate and execute an adoption process?  The one intending to be the parent, or the child who is being chosen for adoption?

In this analogy, most would apparently desire to credit the child with initiating the search for an adoptive parent and with satisfying all the legal costs and conditions necessary for making that adoption process complete.


 

     
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