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Well my friend.

I could almost believe you are Kenneth Subletts cloned.    But alas you did not include an exhaustive  list of scriptures with your commentary.

In any event.

I understand exactly what you are saying.

There are those who think that, they were dealt a losing hand.  The cards were stacked against them, they weren’t born in Lotus-Land.

All pre-ordained, a prisoner in chains.  A victim of venomous fate, kicked in the face.  You can’t pray for a place, in Heaven’s unearthly estate.

Each of us, a cell of awareness, imperfect and incomplete.  Genetic blends, with uncertain ends, on a fortune hunt, that’s far too fleet.

 

Hey there 4WD,

Of course, analogies will always prove to be deficient on some grounds when we are comparing God’s actions with those of mankind.  That goes without saying. 

But you are presuming that God never has and never will work by various means on the hearts of mankind to bring about a willing spirit.  “The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it withersoever he will.” is one example we are given in Proverbs 21:1.

The natural man, prior to the Spirit “RENEWING his mind”, will naturally and inevitably rebel at such a prospect of the sovereign God instigating the work of renewing his mind without his own volition.  It is only those who have experienced the in-dwelling of the Spirit and the effects of His power who have been made capable of humbling themselves and claiming to be God’s willing and obedient SLAVES, as the apostle Paul did.  We are, after all, “BOUGHT with a price”...the precious blood of Jesus.  We are a “purchased possession”, both body and soul.

God fully understands that the natural human spirit greatly desires to get credit for determining its own destiny.  However, if left to itself, that un-renewed nature tends only to death, since “no, not one” will naturally seek after God without the Spirit causing this (Romans 3:10-12).  Of necessity therefore, God must intervene and “draw” individuals to Himself.  This “drawing” of men’s hearts and wills is done in “lovingkindness”, as Jeremiah 31:3 gives example. 

4WD, you wish to present a caricature of God capriciously dragging various unwilling victims into His adopted fold, kicking and screaming hatred against Him both before and after their adoption, with Him maliciously tormenting for all eternity the rest who were not so selected.  This caricature does an injustice to God’s means and methods, and defames His character.  His patience with rebellious mankind and His tenderness for our fallen condition is beyond our comprehension. 

Even in the case of those who were “blind leaders of the blind” in His day, the worst that Christ pronounced against them was to say “let them alone” in that condition that they naturally had chosen for themselves (Matt. 15:14).  Trust me, 4WD, you do not want Christ to “leave you alone” to your own inclinations.  That would be a suicidal wish.  Being left to himself didn’t work out too well either in the case of righteous King Hezekiah in the OT, if you remember (II Chron. 32:31).

But you are presuming that God never has and never will work by various means on the hearts of mankind to bring about a willing spirit.

I have never ever made such a presumption.  Again, that is the view of Reformed Theology.  Reformed Theology says that man hates everything about God, until he is born again by God.

I will ask you the same question, 4WD.

How does the wind cause effects wherever it goes? 

Christ made the exact same comparison when He said “The wind bloweth where *IT* listeth,” (not where the individual determines it will go) “and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth.  SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.”

You’re trying to put a bit and bridle on the “wind”.  Can’t be done.

And 4WD, I have never said that mankind was not given a free will.

THAT’S THE PROBLEM.  A created being - whether human or angelic - when presented with the option of committing either good or evil will eventually default to making a wrong choice, thus causing separation and consequently death of all kinds.  This is the case until God intervenes on our behalf and elects either angels or men to be delivered and/or preserved from that condition.

Freewill is NOT ... I repeat .. N. O. T. a condition to be desired.  When we arrive at perfected holiness in the eternal state, this option to commit sin will finally be removed from us, thank God.  I can hardly wait.

Freewill has been mistakenly elevated to the status of a sacred cow among Christians as well as the ungodly.  You are lauding the very thing that caused the death of our Savior.  Twisted theology.

And Rella, have you ever encountered a child proactively going out to select a set of adoptive parents?  Where is the agency with children as its paying clients who are flipping through catalogs of prospective sets of parents?

“Cool!  I like the way those are smiling in the photo!  Maybe they would let me do whatever I wanted to...Naaah, skip that set of parents, doesn’t look like they’re rich enough...That couple has a great looking house in the mountains; that would be nice...Hey, you got any parents with a farm and horses?”  Etc., etc.

The analogy of a human adoption compared to our adoption by God stands.  The apostle Paul used this term when speaking of our salvation.  Maybe you should take your objections up with him.

And Rella, have you ever encountered a child proactively going out to select a set of adoptive parents?  Where is the agency with children as its paying clients who are flipping through catalogs of prospective sets of parents?

“Cool!  I like the way those are smiling in the photo!  Maybe they would let me do whatever I wanted to...Naaah, skip that set of parents, doesn’t look like they’re rich enough...That couple has a great looking house in the mountains; that would be nice...Hey, you got any parents with a farm and horses?”  Etc., etc.

The analogy of a human adoption compared to our adoption by God stands.  The apostle Paul used this term when speaking of our salvation.  Maybe you should take your objections up with him.

Adoption in the ancient world was very different from what it is now.  In those days they DID go out (and not necessarily kids) looking for someone to adopt themselves to.  In Fact Alexander the Great did not conquer Judea because he convinced someone from the house of David to adopt him and changed his genealogy to be descended from the Kings of Israel.

In 3 places Paul refers to Timothy as "my son," meaning it is possible that Paul had adopted the adult Timothy.

Do not fall into the trap of thinking Paul was referring to what we know as adoption today.

The analogy of a human adoption compared to our adoption by God stands.  The apostle Paul used this term when speaking of our salvation.  Maybe you should take your objections up with him.

But the analogy of adoption that Paul used was not adoption void of any participation by the adoptee.

How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life (Rom 6:2-4).

Walk in newness of life <=> Regeneration.

RB, it looks as if you are in the minority again in this discussion...always a good place to be, since truth is never well accepted by the generality.

I’ll just present one brief question to your detractors for the time being: 

Who takes the initiative to instigate and execute an adoption process?  The one intending to be the parent, or the child who is being chosen for adoption?

In this analogy, most would apparently desire to credit the child with initiating the search for an adoptive parent and with satisfying all the legal costs and conditions necessary for making that adoption process complete.

Thank you~actually I'm never outnumbered as long as I have truth on my side, I'm in the majority!

2nd Kings 6:17~"And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha."

You need to feels sorry for those who oppose God's truth presented by his children.

To no one in particular, save the one to whom I am not responding.

Now we know. We all know.

No wonder your side lost the war.

If you are referring to the civil war, 1.  RB isn't old enough to have been involved just because he is southern.  2.  There are other southern folks on here who disagree with him.  Your comment makes ZERO, and I mean ZERO sense.

If you are referring to the civil war, 1.  RB isn't old enough to have been involved just because he is southern.  2.  There are other southern folks on here who disagree with him.  Your comment makes ZERO, and I mean ZERO sense.

I am not.

Yes there are

It does to me.

Ok please let us all stop with the drama and get back on track with the OP please.  If your comment is not about the topic please refrain from making it.

the old man Adam is NOT FREE, but is in bondage to the devil himself, sin and the world's lusts that works FREELY in his members~VERY DECEITFULLY I might add. The only scriptural sense that God is the Saviour of all men is speaking about PROVIDING for their daily. needs and they are not a few, but many. But Paul ads especially for them that believe. helping us to UNDERSTAND in which sense God is the Saviour of all men. Do all men the sun to shine, rain from heaven, air to breathe, etc.~ Yes, they do. Do we need to eat? Do we need witty inventions to keep living? God PROVIDES for ALL, even though few lift their heads to heaven with thanksgiving and love in their hearts for such a great and merciful God.
   

Why would they? Since, according to your belief, God has not given them the will to do so.

Why would they? Since, according to your belief, God has not given them the will to do so.

Please, read all of my posts before commenting~When God created or made man, he did give him a will that was FREE FROM SIN, FREE to work righteousness! Since the fall of man, man is NO LONGER free to righteousness....he IS a servant of sin and IN BONDAGE to the same.  Man no longer need a Devil to tempt him~he has a devil LIVING IN HIM~yet, the devil can easily bring those wicked sins out of them, just as bad influences brings the worst out of our children when our training them in the way of Lord restrains them to a degree from breaking out. There a millions of little devils in the children of disobedience that we try to keep our little ones from, so that they do not sir up the devils IN THEM. Selah!

Romans 6:12-23~"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your member's servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

ALL under the law of works ARE UNDER the power of sin, Adam proving that those in the flesh CANNOT live in perfect obedience to the law of God~that's why there a NEW COVENANT of GRACE, securing for us what we cannot do in the flesh!  Jesus Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh and fulfilled what Adam could NOT do with one little commandment given to him. YET men still believe in MAN, NOT THE MAN Christ Jesus, their god is THEMSELVES, and there they put their trust thinking God will accept their filthy righteousness along with His Son's PERFECT obedience~God will NOT allow the glory to be shared with his holy child, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, of both Jews and Gentiles...for those who DO NOT GO FORTH......

Romans 10:3b-4~"...............to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

there has been only ONE will FREE to righteousness since the first Adam~all since they were born servants to sin, from a generation of serpents, per Jesus Christ in Matthew 23.

RB, I don't know where you got that piece; it isn't yours.  It isn't written as you write. I don't know whose it is, but I know one thing -- it is a load of crap.

Actually the title came from the OP. I have loads of notes and outlines above my desk (I gave loads of books and works to a young man and his family for their studies since my days are coming to an end, besides, I have much in my memory bank that I can pull from) that I have either put together on my own or have collected over the many years of studying. Fifty years is a long time~I can remember most, some I do not. Let me go and address your post on John 1:12,13. Maybe a little later, since I do have a few things to do.

When God created or made man, he did give him a will that was FREE FROM SIN, FREE to work righteousness! Since the fall of man, man is NO LONGER free to [work] righteousness....he IS a servant of sin and IN BONDAGE to the same.

That is simply not right.  You are presenting the concept of working righteousness as working perfect in all things.  With your definition of working righteousness, not even you, under grace, are FREE to work righteousness.

Man no longer need a Devil to tempt him~he has a devil LIVING IN HIM~yet, the devil can easily bring those wicked sins out of them, just as bad influences brings the worst out of our children when our training them in the way of Lord restrains them to a degree from breaking out. There a millions of little devils in the children of disobedience that we try to keep our little ones from, so that they do not sir up the devils IN THEM. Selah!

What sort of nonsense is that?  Fallen man has an indwelling devil?  Seriously? Where do you read that?  Certainly not anywhere in Scripture.  That is pure jibberish.

ALL under the law of works ARE UNDER the power of sin, Adam proving that those in the flesh CANNOT live in perfect obedience to the law of God~that's why there a NEW COVENANT of GRACE, securing for us what we cannot do in the flesh! 

Yes, those in the flesh cannot live in perfect obedience.  But obviously neither could Adam and he, according to you, was made perfect.  You said there is a new covenant of grace, securing for us what we cannot do in the flesh.  The trouble with your argument here is that even under the new covenant of grace, you cannot live in perfect obedience to the law of God.

Jesus Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh and fulfilled what Adam could NOT do with one little commandment given to him. YET men still believe in MAN, NOT THE MAN Christ Jesus, their god is THEMSELVES, and there they put their trust thinking God will accept their filthy righteousness along with His Son's PERFECT obedience~God will NOT allow the glory to be shared with his holy child, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, of both Jews and Gentiles...for those who DO NOT GO FORTH......  there has been only ONE will FREE to righteousness since the first Adam~all since they were born servants to sin, from a generation of serpents, per Jesus Christ in Matthew 23.

Most of that makes no sense at all  --  it is just more rambling jibberish.  FILTHY righteousness?? What is filthy righteousness?  It seems that in trying to make sense out of your soteriology you get all confused.

I have to believe that in his head that sounds very plausible but I often wonder if he ever reads what he writes because if he does then he might understand how silly it sounds when one reads it.

Red, if you spent more time in the actual scriptures and less time absorbing and promoting the philosophies of other religious  men "who come in Jesus Name", maybe your religion wouldn't contradict the Holy Scriptures so much.

I see that you still have not learned how to use the quote button ( I would truly be happy to help with that if you pm me, no problem )~but, above that~you are bringing the same scriptures using the same line of false assumptions that people were righteous and obeyed God~which WE AGREE, but "ONLY" after....... they were born FIRST of God, then through the power of the NEW MAN created after Jesus Christ, they can and do live blameless...not sinless.

In spite of being an almost impossible person to reason with, it is nice seeing you posting, and I truly mean that.