Author Topic: The Sinner vs. Free Will  (Read 4388 times)

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Online Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #105 on: Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 14:13:26 »
Calvinism in a nutshell:
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edit: dang that came out bigger than I thought

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #105 on: Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 14:13:26 »

Online RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #106 on: Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 14:22:25 »
I have to believe that in his head that sounds very plausible but I often wonder if he ever reads what he writes because if he does then he might understand how silly it sounds when one reads it.
Sounds silly? Biblical Truth is always logical and rational~thereby, biblical truth will always be true with answers for every question. Truth leaves NO END untie and without answers but flow in perfect harmony from start to finish.
Quote from: Yogi on: Today at 09:57:56
but I often wonder if he ever reads what he writes
Now that's silly! I carefully ponder every word before writing, and most likely have turned it over in my mind a hundred times over~I never just shoot from the hip randomly. I was teaching these things back in the mid-seventies. They just did not pop into my head. Neither was I taught them by some denomination, bible college, preacher, etc, but hours of studying, seeking, and praying~ God is my witness. Other than 4WD, there is no one here that I can think of that uses scriptures to draw their support from as much as I do, correct me if you believe otherwise and can prove it. Well, 3 Resurrection does a good job~ forgot him...could be others     

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #107 on: Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 14:48:35 »
Reply #105 on: Today at 14:13:26 

When you speak in tongues you at least should interpret it for us.  ::smile::

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #107 on: Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 14:48:35 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #108 on: Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 15:10:08 »
Red, now you are starting to sound like SwordMaster . He thought he was above everyone also. He loved to boast about it just as much as you do.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #108 on: Wed Sep 02, 2020 - 15:10:08 »

Offline bel

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #109 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 02:47:41 »
Please, read all of my posts before commenting~When God created or made man, he did give him a will that was FREE FROM SIN, FREE to work righteousness! Since the fall of man, man is NO LONGER free to righteousness....he IS a servant of sin and IN BONDAGE to the same.


If you are not given a choice whether to sin or not to sin then you are not free to work righteousness. You would be in bondage to either righteousness or sin, but still not free.


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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #109 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 02:47:41 »



Online RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #110 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 03:04:41 »
Red, now you are starting to sound like SwordMaster . He thought he was above everyone also. He loved to boast about it just as much as you do.
I have never even hinted I'm above others, for I KNOW otherwise that I'm a wretched sinful man living in a body of SIN and death. You are judging me unrighteously if that means anything to you. IF I were in agreement with your false gospel, then you would be given me praise, but I rather listen to your unmerciful judging than be partakers of a gospel that exalts man rather than Jesus Christ and his obedience.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #110 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 03:04:41 »

Online RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #111 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 03:40:07 »
If you are not given a choice whether to sin or not to sin then you are not free to work righteousness. You would be in bondage to either righteousness or sin, but still not free.
Again your false gospel has blinded your eyes to the TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The truth is this: IN ADAM EVERY SINGLE PERSON were given a FREE CHOICE~God could not have been more righteous in placing us IN the first Adam, who DID NOT have a sin nature as ALL have who are born through the generation of Adam.

If a person does not understand this truth, or rejects this truth, then it is impossible for that person to understand how a sinner is made the righteousness of God that allows him to have and enjoy eternal life, now and in the world to come.

It is IN the gospel of Jesus Christ that the righteousness of God is revealed from a person who has faith, to another person who has faith~or the power to have faith.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1:15-17~"So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
To sinners not first born of the Spirit the gospel of Christ is pure foolishness, but unto those THAT BELIEVE ( or HAVE BEEN BORN OF GOD ) it is the power of God unto our practical salvation of coming to a true understanding of HOW SINNERS are saved apart from all works of the FLESH, including their golden calf that they so adore and would kill over......THEIR PRECIOUS FREE WILL which is a misnomer, for it certainly is not free to righteousness, only a servant of sin.

If the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ then how does a sinner become the righteousness of God?
Quote from: Paul
Romans 3:21-24~"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Again.....Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...........The gospel of Jesus Christ reveals that all sinners ( Jews and Gentiles ) are justified FREELY by grace THROUGH Christ's faith~obedience~and righteousness~even as Adam represented his posterity, and  his sin was IMPUETH to all of his generations~EVEN SO, members of Jesus Christ's BODY have received BY GRACE, the righteousness OF GOD being freely imputeth to our account as though we obedience,

Reject Adam's sin as YOUR SIN, then you reject Christ's righteousness AS YOUR righteousness leaving you WITHOUT a wedding garment on!


« Last Edit: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 03:43:17 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #112 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 04:39:53 »
RB, Your “Blameless - not sinless” comment about John the Baptist’s righteous parents back in reply #104 was a great one.  I had never looked at it that way before, but your making a distinction between being blameless in God’s eyes (by the faithfulness of imputed righteousness) versus being actually sinless clears up some confusion in that verse.  Thank you for that. 

Also, back in reply #97, the way you discussed God giving Cain and Pharaoh a CHOICE to perform a righteous act, (even though He knew they ultimately would not do so) is expressing the way I am trying to present “Freewill” as offered to unregenerate mankind.  The rioters in Portland and elsewhere are exercising this kind of “Freedom” right now, which kind of “Freedom” is actually being praised by almost all posting here. 

THIS is the kind of “Freewill” that will be purged from the earth at the final resurrection (Proverbs 2:22 & Ps. 1:4-6).  Why would anybody in their right mind still desire for the saints to have the “freedom” of this option to commit such acts in the eternal state?  Not a desirable thing to have our ability to sin in a permanent state of flux for all eternity, and God has no such plans to perpetuate such a perilous state in the afterlife for His saints.

And for WS’s meme about the “Jesus Borg”, that one expresses some real scriptural truth.  Atheism actually IS futile.  ALL will eventually have to bow the knee, whether willingly or not, and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:10).

That meme also presumes that scriptural “unity” in Christ is equal to “uniformity”.  It’s not.  The disciples of Jesus were not and never are turned into “clones” with no way to express their individual personalities.  They ARE supposed to be ONE IN UNITY, even as Christ prayed that the believing Jews and Gentiles would be in John 17:20-22.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE; as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.  And the glory which thou gavest  me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even as we are one.”

If WS wishes to present this unity of the body of Christ sarcastically as a Calvinist “Jesus Borg”, then I would have to say “count me in”.  I embrace the Jesus “Borg”.   Again, why would anybody in their right mind object to being given the same mind as that of Christ?  “We have the mind of Christ” (I Cor. 2:16).

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #113 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 05:01:42 »
Quote
Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will vss God's Will
Though a thorough discussion of God's will would take many posts, we shall focus on salvation~this will be brief....mainly from Romans 9 and Ephesians 1.

The blessed God has the freest and purest will of all, which is sovereign over all (Romans 9:15-22). It is God’s choice which man receives His mercy and His compassion; to believe otherwise is to reject God's testimony from...(Romans 9:15)! Therefore we conclude that man’s will or efforts have nothing to do with mercy that is given in salvation from sin and condemnation. (Romans 9:16).

Pharaoh is given as an illustration of a man existing and succeeding for God’s glory (Romans 9:17). There is NO OTHER reason that could be given as to why we are here living on this earth~I certainly had NO CHOICE in the matter and neither did you who are reading this.  Therefore we conclude again that mercy, compassion, and hardening are God’s choices, per his own testimony.  (9:18).

Paul, knowing there would be foolish questions from vain men who in their hearts believes NO ONE has a right over them do as they please without AT LEAST doing the same for them as God did for others! Paul heads them off by asking them himself (9:19). "IF" we object to this arrangement, we need to shut up, for our  reasoning and questions are out of line (9:20)! Does not a potter have total control over the clay, and so it is with our Creator over us (9:21). And God the Potter has made both vessels of mercy and wrath from human clay FOR KNOWING THAT ALL OF THEM would fall in Adam WHEN left to THEMSELVES would not nor could not come to believe on him! (John 6; Romans 9:22-24; 1st Peter 1:2).

The salvation of our souls is from beginning to end by God’s free and sovereign will (Ephesians 1:3-12). The choice that obtains all spiritual blessings for us is God’s choice in election (Ephesians 1:3-4). Our adoption out of sin and condemnation is according to the pleasure of His will (Ephesains 1:5). He makes us accepted in the Beloved, in Jesus Christ, by choosing us in Him (Ephesains 1:6). The forgiveness of sins is by the mystery of His will, pleasure, and purpose (Eph 1:7-10). The Lord works all things after the counsel of his own well, especially salvation (Ephesains 1:11-12).

It is the will of God by which we are sanctified through the offering of Jesus for us (Hebrews 10:10).

God’s will is the basis for our salvation in every phase of the great work, including conversion

God’s will is the basis for election (Romans 9:13-24; Ephesians 1:3-6; 2nd Timothy 1:9).

God’s will is the basis for FREE justification (John 6:38-39; Eph 1:3-6; Hebrews 8:8-12; 10:5-10).

God’s will is the basis for regeneration in time. (John 1:13; John 3:8; 5:21; James 1:18).

God’s will is the basis for conversion (Acts 16:6-10; 18:9-10; Ist Corinthians 1:1; 2nd Thessolannians  2:13-14).

God’s will is the basis for glorification (Ephesians 1:7-12; Psalm 89:27-37).

In healing one leper, a very small minority of lepers, Jesus said, “I will; be thou clean” (Matthew 8:1-4).

It is our duty as the children of God to learn the revealed will of God for living (Ephesians 5:15-17). When we do the revealed will of God, He blesses us with the assurance of the truth (John 7:17).  It is a choice of our new man (as I have said many times over)  to respond to God by obeying His will (Romans 12:1-2; Ist Peter 4:1-3)~and submitting our wills to his knowing that he is absolutely righteous and we are sinners even at our best efforts in pleasing Him.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 05:04:52 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #113 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 05:01:42 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #114 on: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 08:36:27 »
Though a thorough discussion of God's will would take many posts, we shall focus on salvation~this will be brief....mainly from Romans 9 and Ephesians 1.

The blessed God has the freest and purest will of all, which is sovereign over all (Romans 9:15-22). It is God’s choice which man receives His mercy and His compassion; to believe otherwise is to reject God's testimony from...(Romans 9:15)! Therefore we conclude that man’s will or efforts have nothing to do with mercy that is given in salvation from sin and condemnation. (Romans 9:16).
I won't, at this time, bother with the whole of your post here.  But I will address your confusion in interpreting Paul's message in Romans 9, since you have stated that it, Romans 9, is at the heart of your conclusions.

We need to back up a bit to see what problem Paul was addressing.  In Romans 9:1-3, Paul has stated his concern that at least some of his "kinsmen" were accursed.  He says that he wished that he, himself, might be accursed on their behalf.  That is, some, perhaps most, of the Israelites were cut off from God's kingdom and would end up eternally condemned.  He says that while at the same time noting in Romans 9:4-5 of all Israelites, "to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever.." The question that Paul is setting up to answer is how is it possible that the benefits of being one of God's chosen people does not carry with it the salvation from sin and death.  How is it possible that God does not save all Israel?  Does this mean that God has gone back on His word (v.6), that God has failed to keep His promises to all Israelites?    Paul says no, "it is not as though the word of God has failed"  Why would Paul even bring this up?  The reason is that there were those who claimed that since they were among God's chosen people, therefore God promised to save them. 

Paul said that is not true and he introduces the discussion of Jacob and Esau to prove his point. It should be obvious from the context that Paul is not speaking about the two individuals, Jacob and Esau, but rather the two nations that derived from the two brothers.  That becomes even clearer when it is noted that Paul said "As it is written...", referring to God's word expressed in Malachi 1:2-3: "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." Here it is explicit that Jacob and Esau have reference to the two nations Israel and Edom.

So these words in Romans, with those of Malachi, "Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated", are cited by the apostle to prove,  that the purpose of God, according to election are used in the national sense and not in the personal sense.  Thus when Paul quotes God's words to Moses, i.e., ""I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" (Rom 9:15; Exod 33:19), Paul is not talking about election to salvation from sin and condemnation: rather Paul is talking about election of the nation Israel to the service to God in bringing about His plan of salvation, His promise to Abraham.  All Israel was elected to service; all Israel was not elected to salvation.  God's words, "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills" (Rom 9:18), deal with service not salvation.

Quote from: RB
Pharaoh is given as an illustration of a man existing and succeeding for God’s glory (Romans 9:17).
And this reinforces what I have said above about Jacob and Esau because there is nothing in that illustration that speaks of salvation from sin and condemnation; it only speaks about God using Pharaoh as a means to an end, namely, God's glory in the setting of His people free from Egypt.

Paul's point in all of this is that God is free to choose [elect] anyone to His service, to act on His behalf, without any obligation to save them from sin and condemnation.  Any attempt to address Paul's discussion there to election of any individual to salvation is purely eisegesis.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 03, 2020 - 17:12:30 by 4WD »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #115 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 04:46:36 »
We need to back up a bit to see what problem Paul was addressing.
4WD, when you backed up, you fell into a ditch, I think it is only right to help you out from whence you have fallen. Just call me the Good Samaritan~but, pretty sure you have another name for me......like Calvinsit, etc., etc.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 08:36:27
The question that Paul is setting up to answer is how is it possible that the benefits of being one of God's chosen people does not carry with it the salvation from sin and death.
4WD, here's my helping hand to rescue you from the ditch:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:1-3~"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"
Very briefly....Paul did indeed have great heaviness for his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh~this heaviness move him so much that he even wish that he like so many of his brethren were accursed from Christ~this accursed could NOT mean perishing in the lake of fire, for NO MAN living in the flesh, could LOVE anyone to that degree~that would be going ABOVE what the law of God demands from us and NO man living in a body of SIN and death could truly desire that even for his own wife and children~IMPOSSIBLE. This accursed from Christ MUST be understood in a practical sense of NOT coming to the TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FAITH and STILL seeking to be justified by our works. Now, brother, I COULD have this love for you and you toward me if we love each other AS the law of God DEMANDS us to love each other. But, this is not the heart of what I want to discuss with you.

Even though Paul reveals his great love toward HIS BRETHREN that were NO doubt children of God, ( that he will describe more in detail in Romans 10:1-4 ) just living in ignorance~he goes on to say these words:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:6-8~"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Paul understood that all will not hear, yet in spite of that, he took COMFORT in knowing the TRUE CHILDREN of God are children of his promises, and THEY WILL, in the end, be eternally saved, regardless of their present state in this world, and their understanding of the truth concerning Jesus Christ. Yet Paul was willing to trade places with those of his kinsmen WHOM he witnessed had fear and zeal of God, yet NOT according to the truth! What brought Paul some comfort was the truth that IN THE END, all who are children of God's promise WILL receive his mercy IN SPITE of present circumstances. 

What is abundantly clear is this truth: 
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
"but the children of the promise are counted for the seed"
All who will at the end receive eternal life, will receive it based on the truth that they were children of God's oath and promises~period! That removes all works of the flesh~so, then, it is not him that runneth, nor of willeth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Quote from: Paul
Roamns 9:9~"For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

For this is the word of promise~This particular promise is the one God made to Abraham in Sarah’s hearing found in Genesis 18:9-15, especially verse 10, where the language is most similar between Moses and Paul. The existence of Ishmael and the future existence of the six sons of Keturah had no meaning at all. God’s promises, especially in this case, allow Him to alter verb tenses (Romans 4:17 cp Genesis 17:4-6).

At this time will I come~God had told Abraham that he would have a son by Sarah a year from the promise (Genesis 17:21). When God promised in Sarah’s hearing, it was then only nine months to his birth (Genesis 18:10,14). This event occurred: Sarah conceived, carried, and delivered a son by Abraham on time (Genesis 21:2).

And Sara shall have a son~Forget Hagar, Abraham. As I promised three months ago, your barren and ancient wife shall bear. This event occurred: Sarah conceived, carried, and delivered a son by Abraham on time (Ge 21:2).
Quote
Romans 9:10~"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;"

And not only this~Paul justified and proved election within Israel (9:6) by examples ~Isaac of Abraham’s eight sons. For Jews to put stock in being Abraham’s seed or children, they overlooked seven other sons! Out of the eight sons that were truly Abraham’s seed and children, 88% were rejected by God. Paul’s first illustration was a profound and powerful rebuke to their trust in biological descent. Though this example was very weighty, Paul did not stop there but rather raised another one. We could say that he was piling on, and rightfully so, for the Jews were arrogant in Abraham. Now he gave another example ~God chose between the twin sons of Rebecca conceived by Isaac. This is profound wisdom for Paul to justify 60 A.D. election in the families of the patriarchs. Dealing with Abraham’s children and then Isaac’s children was as sacred as children could go. If God made determinate choices among sons of these great men, He could easily in Paul’s day. These argumentative illustrations for election are powerful, if you consider the nature of children. The tender relationship of parent to children is not considered by God’s choice among them. Every parent, especially these patriarchs, would want the very best for each of their children. Every parent knows the fear and risk of making big differences between or among children. Though Abraham had eight sons, and loved Ishmael the most, God chose Isaac against the rest. Though Isaac fathered twins by Rebekah (same father, same mother), God chose only Jacob.

But when Rebecca also had conceived~Since Paul had used Sarah’s miraculous conception, a use of Rebecca’s conception calls for also. In the very next generation, in Abraham’s family tree, another election occurred between children. Conception was important to Jews, especially that involving their patriarchal fathers and mothers. This second example provided another convicting election in the families of the Jewish patriarchs. It was after the twins’ conception, when they wrestled in her womb, that God told her His choice.

By one~Paul by inspiration tightened the example down by the children having the same father and mother.  Isaac’s election could be excused or justified by him being the only and unique child of Sarah. But in Jacob’s case, fraternal twins were conceived by the same parents and at the same time. If election extends to cases even like this, God’s will in election is clearly of total sovereignty. How can election be exalted any higher than God’s choice between twins of a godly marriage? Those holding salvation by race have a real problem here – God chose one and rejected the other.

Even by our father Isaac~The Jews knew that Rebekah’s conception was by Isaac, but naming the patriarch adds weight. There was no circumstantial difference between the twins ~they had the same father and mother. Their father was the chosen seed of promise of Abraham and a patriarch of the nation of Israel. Though this example of election involved the patriarch Isaac, God chose between his sons. Paul took the first father of the Jews and showed God’s election choosing one and rejecting seven. Paul took the Jews’ second father and showed God’s election choosing one and rejecting his twin.By the nature of a parenthetical insertion, it may be left out initially to follow the line of reasoning.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 9:11~"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)"

For the children being not yet born~Parenthetical insertions like this one may be left out initially to follow the main line of reasoning; but now we may deal with this wonderful explanation given by Paul of the nature of God’s choice. Rather than short quotations from the O.T., Paul gave an inspired explanation of personal election. Paul did not deal with nations or peoples, regardless of what Moses (Genesis 25:19-23) or Malachi (Malachi 1:1-5) were dealing with, for he specifically and clearly identified two definite children here. He argued for an election within Israel of children of God and vessels of mercy (Romans 9:6b,8,22-24)

Neither having done any good or evil~God’s elective choice was before good or bad works ~thus it is clearly unconditional election. Both boys were guilty of Adam’s sin, but that is ignored here for their own sins: Paul’s argument is to prove that God’s elective purpose is unconditionally based on His own will (Romans 9:15-16).

That the purpose of God~Election is according to God’s purpose, as are all His acts (Acts 15:18; Romans8:28; Ephesians 1:11; 2nd Timothy 1:9).
 The LORD made all things for Himself, and get this, even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverb 16:4).

According to election~Election is a choice. God’s purpose included the election of one twin and rejection of the other. What election? Paul argued against national privileges and for spiritual blessings and promises.

Might stand~There is no way around this text in its plain and extreme description of God’s sovereign will. There is no person or power in heaven, earth, or hell that can hinder God’s sovereign choices. It is the zeal of the Lord of hosts that will perform all His purposes for every individual person. The basis of everything that happens – those events that stand~are by God’s choice and purpose.

Not of works~ God’s election, or choice, is not because of man’s works, but by His grace (Romans 11:6; 2nd Timothy 1:9).God’s elective choice was before good or bad works ~ thus it is clearly unconditional election. God does not elect those who choose Him and obedience, or they elect God rather than He them!

But of him that calleth~The whole matter of individual and personal salvation as the children of God depends and turns on the sovereign will of the one and only sovereign God ~the Potter with full power over the clay. There is no other will or effort involved in His compassion and mercy, as stated (Romans 9:15-16).
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 05:53:52 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #116 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 06:05:18 »
Red, now you are starting to sound like SwordMaster . He thought he was above everyone also.
The only reason why men think in that manner is that they think that they have power with themselves to please God, without God securing salvation  for them!
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthains 1:26-29~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."
Boastful and proud men are those who believe in free will and those who reject total depravity of the flesh.

Do not confuse me with your camp.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #117 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 08:11:34 »
This accursed from Christ MUST be understood in a practical sense of NOT coming to the TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FAITH and STILL seeking to be justified by our works.
Once again we see that God's word is in direct conflict with your theology.  And whenever that happens we find you giving it a SENSE quite different from what is actually stated.  I am surprised that you did not, as you often do, cite Nehemiah 8:8 to support your changing the meaning of Romans 9:3. (Just as an aside here it is really ironic that you give the wrong sense in your interpretation of Nehemiah 8:8; but that is for another day.) 

The clear sense, the obvious meaning, of Romans 9:3 is that Paul expressed his willingness to take the place of all of his lost "brothers" to be accursed from Christ in their place.  The word "accursed" translates the Greek ἀνάθεμα [anathema]. It is used in other places, such as 1 Corinthians 16:22 and Gal 1:8-9, for eternal condemnation and is there translated so even by such reformed thinkers as John Gill even if he, erroneously, can't abide it in Romans 9:3.  He must reject the clear meaning of what Paul says here simply because he, as you have done, thinks such a declaration by Paul would contradict the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the saints, or Once-Saved-Always-Saved. And, of course, you devoted the whole rest of that post trying to defend that false doctrine. But you failed.  You do that beginning with the following statement:
Quote from: RB
Even though Paul reveals his great love toward HIS BRETHREN that were NO doubt children of God, ( that he will describe more in detail in Romans 10:1-4 ) just living in ignorance~....
And here you take the words "HIS BRETHREN" to mean, as you state, "NO doubt children of God".  But of course you are wrong in that because Paul further identifies them as "my kinsmen according to the flesh".  Paul calls them "my brothers", and you insist that this must mean they are children of God.  But such is not the case.  Sometimes in the NT Jews spoke of the fellow Jews as "brothers".  This is true in the book of Acts (e.g. 2:29,37;3:17,22; 7:2; 9:17; 13:26).  Even Paul addressed unbelieving Jews as his "brothers" (Acts 13:26,38; 22:1; 23;1,5,6; 28:17). Thus no connotation of salvation is implied here by the term "brothers".  In fact, one of Paul's main points of this very chapter is that membership in physical Israel is not equivalent to membership in the true spiritual people of God, spiritual Israel:  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel (Rom 9:6) It is they who are NOT ISRAEL that he speaks of in verse 3.  And any who would simply read the chapter as Paul wrote it would understand that perfectly.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 08:38:28 by 4WD »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #118 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 08:35:54 »
The only reason why men think in that manner is that they think that they have power with themselves to please God, without God securing salvation  for them!Boastful and proud men are those who believe in free will and those who reject total depravity of the flesh.

Do not confuse me with your camp.
The boastful and proud men are those who think they can change the clear meaning in the words that God speaks and give it their own SENSE in order that it conform to their [false] theology.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #119 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 13:29:32 »
Once again we see that God's word is in direct conflict with your theology.
Let's get this straight...for sure against yours and the gospel of works you adhere to. 

I will answer your post tomorrow~ for me the day is far spent with a few more appointments.

One point, maybe two. I will prove that it is IMPOSSIBLE to love ABOVE what the law demands and its demands are to love others as we do oursleves~no man is capable of loving others above than we love ourselves....how is that possible? I deeply appreciate Gill, but he is not my source of truth, and neither should he be yours on issues against me.

Secondly, I was basing my beliefs that Paul KNEW some of his brethren who were fighting him were already born again yet did not possess true knowledge of the gospel of Christ from what he goes on to say in Romans 10:1-4, not so much calling them "brethren"~yet he could have meant both meanings as a means of converting the ones among them that were children of God's promises, which is the ONLY doctrine that truly SECURES our eternal salvation from sin and condemnation. NO doctrine in the scriptures secures our practical salvation from errors to a fuller knowledge of the truth~This is OUR WORK after God quickens us to life~that's why no two brothers in Christ believe the exact same truths or are on the same level of knowledge.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 13:40:04 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #120 on: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 16:47:08 »
One point, maybe two. I will prove that it is IMPOSSIBLE to love ABOVE what the law demands and its demands are to love others as we do oursleves~no man is capable of loving others above than we love ourselves....how is that possible?
I truly love both my sons and my wife more than I love myself.  I would give up my life in a heartbeat if that were required to save any one of them from death today. And I would bet that pushed for an answer you would say much the same thing. So yes, I think it is likely that Paul would consign himself to condemnation to save the whole of his lost Israelite "brothers".  But of course that would not even be sufficient to accomplish what he offered.  Only the death of the Son of God can provide the means for escape from condemnation for sin.

Quote from: RB
NO doctrine in the scriptures secures our practical salvation....
You and that bogus and nonsensical "practical" salvation.  One more time when God's word doesn't jive with your theology, you have to make up some other terms or some other "sense" to make it fall in line.  With respect to the spiritual, there is only one salvation.  And that is salvation from sin and death.  There isn't practical salvation or legal salvation or whatever salvation --  there is only salvation.  But that also is probably best left for another time.

And by the way, I do not adhere to a gospel of works. Here again you fail to understand Paul's teaching on grace apart from works of law and as a result again make up some other terms or some other sense to make it fit with your false theology.
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 04, 2020 - 16:51:12 by 4WD »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #121 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 03:11:18 »
Again your false gospel has blinded your eyes to the TRUTH of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The truth is this: IN ADAM EVERY SINGLE PERSON were given a FREE CHOICE~

So you do agree that every single one of us has a free will ( the ability to act at one's own discretion) and that we can either do what God commands (wills) us to do or something other than what God wills (commands).

Speaking of false gospels, you claim that we are all wretched sinners and that even our best efforts are not good enough for God. Jesus' parents certainly didn't feed Him this load of rotten apples. On the contrary, He was told that He was a Son of God and that He was destined for great things. Neither did Jesus feed His disciples such crap. In fact, He was "teaching them to fish" and encouraging them to "walk on water". You can whine and cry all you want to about how it's totally impossible can never please God, and make your excuses "I can't help myself, God made me a sinner and I can't be righteous." However, Jesus was a man, just like the rest of us, and He proved that we CAN do it. So, we have no excuses and I for one choose to follow Him.

Let me ask you this. Who is it that wants you to think men can't be righteous and do the works of God?

« Last Edit: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 03:22:11 by bel »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #122 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 05:12:05 »
So you do agree that every single one of us has a free will ( the ability to act at one's own discretion) and that we can either do what God commands (wills) us to do or something other than what God wills (commands).
As a man, I know too well how easy it is for us to do as Moses did to the rock when dialoguing with others~kinda know a little of how President Trump feels dealing with all of the people attaching him just because he has a precious commodity they hate which is the truth~of what it takes to put America FIRST and what will bring her down.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
So you do agree that every single one of us has a free will ( the ability to act at one's own discretion) and that we can either do what God commands (wills) us to do or something other than what God wills (commands)."
The only people in this world whose will if FREE to do as you are asking are those born again~all others are born of the flesh ( UNLESS quicken in their mother's womb as John the Baptist was ) When a person is born of God, they receive from the Spirit a new man within them, who of God is:
Quote
1st Corinthians 1:30b......."is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"
And we could add KNOWLEDGE and between being RECREATED in the wisdom and knowledge of God, give us the power/ability to use the wisdom and knowledge of Jesus Christ to make proper choices~that being said, we are still living IN a body of SIN and death that hinders us GREATLY and deceiving us at times ( all of the times if not putting on the new man )....that being said, man not born of God has only one nature and in the scriptures it is called THE FLESH and according to God's testimony......
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 4:22-24"That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Again:
Quote
Colossians 3:5-10~"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: or which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
So, you answer your own question using the word of God~"Can a man living in the flesh with all of its deceitful lust without any wisdom and knowledge of God IN THEM can either do what God commands (wills) us to do or something other than what God wills (commands)...the biblical answer is IMPOSSIBLE. Again, for whatever it is worth~to all that believes God's testimony over and above man's it means everything: 
Quote
Romans 8:5-8~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
There is your answer STRAIGHT from the MOUTH of God, if that means anything to you, which it seems it does not.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
Speaking of false gospels, you claim that we are all wretched sinners and that even our best efforts are not good enough for God
Sir, it is not what I CLAIM, it is what the word of God clearly teaches. Read Romans chapter three for the teaching of the Spirit of God on this biblical doctrine through his true and faithful servants.
Quote from: Heaven's testimony concerning man's will/heart/mind all very closely associated
Jeremiah 17:9~"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
That's true of every man's heart after the fall of Adam~there is NO Exceptions.... we are born with the image of Adam's fallen nature, and it is NOT something to be desired and to be used to make SPIRITUAL decisions~even many natural decisions.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
Jesus' parents certainly didn't feed Him this load of rotten apples.
Mary understood much more than you do on human nature:
Quote from: Mary
Luke 1:46-51~"And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts."
You think she did not know the wickedness of the human heart? She taught the same to her son Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
He was told that He was a Son of God and that He was destined for great things.
Really? prove it. MAry gradually understood the truth about Jesus~which is clear from many scriptures, Joesph, we just do not know to the degree he fully understood and will never know until that in the world to come.
Quote from: The HOLY GHOST
Luke 2:48-51~"And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
The more you speak, the more you prove just how little of the word of God you know, which seems to be almost nothing.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
Neither did Jesus feed His disciples such crap
The more you speak, the more you show just how much you hate TRUTH, you have a serious problem.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
You can whine and cry all you want to about how it's totally impossible can never please God, and make your excuses "I can't help myself, God made me a sinner and I can't be righteous."
Impossible for those who are NOT first born of God! Only then is the power there to walk blameless in the word of God, but NOT until then.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
, Jesus was a man, just like the rest of us, and He proved that we CAN do it.
Blasphemy! He was NOT born with a sinful nature~God was his Father, not Adam! But, what do we expect from men whose eyes are blinded by self-worth, whose doctrine exalts humanism, the god of modern man!
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
He proved that we CAN do it
He came because we COULD NOT live in obedience to the law of God~he came so His father would on his behalf grant mercy to the member of his body, based on HIS redemption work for them, creating them in the very image of His Son allowing/giving them the power to walk blameless in the law of God. The life of faith each child of God has ever lived they did so by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST in the new man within them.
Quote from: Paul
Galatians 2:20~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
That's my testimony, what is yours? Do not tell me, I know already. The old man Adam is your god and saviour.
Quote from: Bel Reply #121 on: Today at 03:11:18
Let me ask you this. Who is it that wants you to think men can't be righteous and do the works of God?
Before regeneration? God! After regeneration? I have no clue.
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 04:16:07 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #123 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 07:12:25 »
RB, there was so much wrong in your reply #122 to bel.  I never cease to be amazed at how poorly you interpret so much scripture.  Again it all stems, apparently, from your adherence to the false concept of Total Depravity.  The problem of our "old man" is not that we can not obey God's law.  The problem is that we do not obey God's law perfectly.  There are many people, who have not been born again, who obey most of God's laws most of the time.  They just do not obey all of God's laws all of the time with no slipups ever.  Being born again, becoming the "new man", does not mean that a person has been changed so that he then can obey all of God's laws all of the time with no slipups ever.  Being born again means that he is forgiven when he slips up, when he doesn't obey all of God's laws all of the time.  His ability to obey has not changed.  He still does not obey all of God's laws all the time. 

Ideally and hopefully as he matures in his studies of God's word and, with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells with and in him, i.e., the gift of the Holy Spirit received at the same time that he was forgiven his sins, he becomes stronger in his desire and ability to obey God's laws more fully.  That is the life-long process of sanctification.  But he still does ever achieve the ability to keep all of God's laws all of the time; rather he is forgiven for those times when he doesn't.

So yes a man not born again can be righteous and do the works of God.   But that righteousness is not the righteousness of God, I.e., perfect righteousness.  And he can't do the works of God perfectly.  After he is born again he is imputed, not imparted, with the righteousness of God. And while he still can't do the works of God perfectly, he is forgiven when he doesn't do the works of God perfectly.

There is so much more that I could respond to in your reply to bel, but I will stop for now.  Maybe later  --  maybe.
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 07:19:00 by 4WD »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #124 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 08:25:40 »
RB, there was so much wrong in your reply #122 to bel.  I never cease to be amazed at how poorly you interpret so much scripture.
So why are you answering for him? You are teaching us bad manners. Yes, I see why you think there's much wrong in my post because you and I are in two different camps, with two different gospels. The scriptures warn me of your gospel to be another gospel, which is truly not another, for there is only ONE, that God's testimony presents of his Son, in his word.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
Again it all stems, apparently, from your adherence to the false concept of Total Depravity.
And, your's from rejecting the same.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
The problem of our "old man" is not that we can not obey God's law. 
Well, we proved otherwise above, address those scriptures.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
The problem is that we do not obey God's law perfectly.
EVEN WITH the new man, though his will is to obey perfectly, the OLD MAN, or, as Paul said:
Quote
Romans 7:17,18~"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth NO good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."
Paul's will of the new man DESIRETH nothing but perfection, yet he knew as long as he lived in the flesh, the body of sin and death, he would NEVER be able to keep from having sin mixed with all that he did~the new man CAN NOT sin, the old man LOVES, DELIGHTS in sinning!
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
So yes a man not born again can be righteous and do the works of God.
Then Jesus Christ died in vain!
Quote
Galatians 2:21~I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Or, man's ability to be righteous and DO the works of God as you believe and teach others. So many scriptures have been provided and you just refuse to address them and certainly, do not believe them! ALL FLESH is at enmity AGAINST GOD, yet your gospel teaches otherwise! This seems as though it does not bother you.
Quote
But that righteousness is not the righteousness of God, I.e., perfect righteousness.  And he can't do the works of God perfectly.
Sir, before God will forgive any sinner, PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS MUST BE PROVIDED~there is no forgiveness where the law of God has not been PERFECTLY SATISFIED. The only way God can be just and justify sinners is for a PERFECT ATONEMENT BE PROVIDED in their place.  Jesus Christ is that SURETY before the law of God for his sheep.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
After he is born again he is imputed
So wrong! One is born of God BECAUSE Jesus paid for their sins and reconciliation was made AT THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ.
Quote
2nd Corinthians 5:21~"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
When Christ said IT IS FINISHED his work was done, now waited for the approval of God and his law~when God raised him from the dead~legally our sins were paid in full~by his perfect life of obedience in our stead. There, God legally imputeth righteousness to everyone who was members of his elect body. When he died, we die; when he was resurrected, so were we; where he now sits in the heavenly, so do we...legally speaking. Ephesians 2 is very clear on this particular doctrine.
Quote from: 4WD Reply #123 on: Today at 07:12:25
There is so much more that I could respond to in your reply
Same here~but time is something I just do not have much of.
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 08:32:19 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #125 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 08:26:32 »
I see that you still have not learned how to use the quote button ( I would truly be happy to help with that if you pm me, no problem )~but, above that~you are bringing the same scriptures using the same line of false assumptions that people were righteous and obeyed God~which WE AGREE, but "ONLY" after....... they were born FIRST of God, then through the power of the NEW MAN created after Jesus Christ, they can and do live blameless...not sinless.

In spite of being an almost impossible person to reason with, it is nice seeing you posting, and I truly mean that.


Quote
Please, read all of my posts before commenting~When God created or made man, he did give him a will that was FREE FROM SIN, FREE to work righteousness!

How was Eve given a will that was "free from sin"? I mean, come on Red! Even 4WD, who has judged me as a reprobate and placed me in the back of the bus, even he understands the error in this statement.

Didn't God give Adam and Eve a will which allowed them to "choose" between God's Instructions, (Righteousness) and the instructions of "another voice" (Unrighteousness)?

And after their fall, doesn't man still have in them the same will?


Quote
Since the fall of man, man is NO LONGER free to righteousness....he IS a servant of sin and IN BONDAGE to the same.

Abraham, Abel and Noah, Shem and Japheth were not "free" to choose righteousness over unrighteousness? And Ham and Adam and Eve was not free to choose the same?

I'm not sure where you get your religious philosophy Red. But if the Holy Scriptures are our guide, these statements are simply untrue. And teaching untruths about God, even if you mean well, is a horrible sin.

Lev. 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

God's Word never deceived anyone Red. It's the "other voice" in the garden, who quotes some of God's Word, that deceives.

As your neighbor, I implore you to re-consider this religious philosophy of yours regarding the will God gave to mankind. Your teaching is wrong on this matter, and the Holy Scriptures prove this in so many ways.

2 cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

It's not brain surgery Red. We either believe the instructions of our Lord "Man shall live by every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God" or the "other voice" in the garden, "you have no choice in the matter, you will surely not die".

My hope is that you might take this into consideration and turn to the Christ of the Bible in this matter.



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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #126 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 09:49:09 »
RB, you have a major problem that stems from your adherence to Total Depravity. And that is that you do not understand the biblical references to righteous and righteousness.  There is a righteousness of man and then there is the righteousness of God.  The righteousness of man is imperfect righteousness; the righteousness of God is perfect, complete.  There is relative righteousness; there is divine righteousness.  The whole subject of righteousness is far more than can be transmitted in a forum such as this.  However, just let me note that the Bible very clearly demonstrates the reality of this relative human righteousness in the way that it compares those who are "more righteous" with those who are less so. Consider the following passages: Genesis 38:26; Deuteronomy 9:4-6; 1 Samuel 24:17; 1 Kings 2:32; Ezekiel 16:51-52; Habakkuk 1:53.  The passages that really establish this concept of relative righteousness, however, are the many, many places where the "righteous" and the "wicked" are contrasted with one another.  This way of speaking appears in the Bible almost from beginning to end: Genesis 18:23; Deuteronomy 25:1; 1 kings 8:32; Job 10:15;Psalms 1:6; 7:9; 34:15-16; 37:17,21; 68:2-3; 75:10.  Proverbs has so many of these comparisons that I cannot list them all; as but one example see 12:5. Such comparisons are also seen in Ezekiel 3:17-21; 18:20; Malachi 3:18; Matthew 5:45; 13:49; Luke 5:32; Acts 24:15; 1 Tim 1:9; 1 Pet 4:18.  And these are but a partial listing of such comparisons.

In all of these is should be obvious that those who are called righteous are not perfectly so, yet God calls them righteous in a relative sense, over against those who do not seek Him and His will.  It is in this sense that the Bible refers to specific people as righteous: Abel (Matt 23:35; Heb 11:4; 1 John 3:12); Lot (2 Pet 2:7-8); Noah (Gen 6:9; 7:1); Zacharias and Elisabeth (Luke 1:6); Joseph (Matt 1:19); Simeon (Luke 2:25); John the Baptist (Mark 6:20); Joseph of Arimathea (Luke 23:50); and Cornelius (Acts 10:22).  At other times Scripture simply speaks of the general category of the righteous or the typical righteous person (see for example Matt 10:41; 13:17; 23:29; Luke 14:14; Rom 5:7; Heb 12:23; James 5:6,16).

It is important to see that the Bible tells us that God blesses the righteous just because they are righteous, not in the absolute sense but in the relative sense I described above.  God blesses them because of their righteousness, or because in this relative sense they deserve it. I can go on and on in this vane describing the way in which the Bible speaks about those who are righteous in a relative sense, yet not righteous in the absolute sense.

It is important to see this relative human righteousness in order to even begin to understand divine righteousness, the righteousness of God.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #127 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 13:19:07 »
The boastful and proud men are those who think they can change the clear meaning in the words that God speaks and give it their own SENSE in order that it conform to their [false] theology.
Now, yes NOW, let me ask you this question: "Is this what you are referencing.......
Quote from: 4WD on: Today at 09:49:09
RB, you have a major problem that stems from your adherence to Total Depravity. And that is that you do not understand the biblical references to righteous and righteousness.  There is a righteousness of man and then there is the righteousness of God.  The righteousness of man is imperfect righteousness; the righteousness of God is perfect, complete.  There is relative righteousness; there is divine righteousness.  The whole subject of righteousness is far more than can be transmitted in a forum such as this.  However, just let me note that the Bible very clearly demonstrates the reality of this relative human righteousness in the way that it compares those who are "more righteous" with those who are less so. Consider the following passages: Genesis 38:26; Deuteronomy 9:4-6; 1 Samuel 24:17; 1 Kings 2:32; Ezekiel 16:51-52; Habakkuk 1:53.  The passages that really establish this concept of relative righteousness, however, are the many, many places where the "righteous" and the "wicked" are contrasted with one another.  This way of speaking appears in the Bible almost from beginning to end: Genesis 18:23; Deuteronomy 25:1; 1 kings 8:32; Job 10:15;Psalms 1:6; 7:9; 34:15-16; 37:17,21; 68:2-3; 75:10.  Proverbs has so many of these comparisons that I cannot list them all; as but one example see 12:5. Such comparisons are also seen in Ezekiel 3:17-21; 18:20; Malachi 3:18; Matthew 5:45; 13:49; Luke 5:32; Acts 24:15; 1 Tim 1:9; 1 Pet 4:18.  And these are but a partial listing of such comparisons.

In all of these is should be obvious that those who are called righteous are not perfectly so, yet God calls them righteous in a relative sense, over against those who do not seek Him and His will.  It is in this sense that the Bible refers to specific people as righteous: Abel (Matt 23:35; Heb 11:4; 1 John 3:12); Lot (2 Pet 2:7-8); Noah (Gen 6:9; 7:1); Zacharias and Elisabeth (Luke 1:6); Joseph (Matt 1:19); Simeon (Luke 2:25); John the Baptist (Mark 6:20); Joseph of Arimathea (Luke 23:50); and Cornelius (Acts 10:22).  At other times Scripture simply speaks of the general category of the righteous or the typical righteous person (see for example Matt 10:41; 13:17; 23:29; Luke 14:14; Rom 5:7; Heb 12:23; James 5:6,16).

It is important to see that the Bible tells us that God blesses the righteous just because they are righteous, not in the absolute sense but in the relative sense I described above.  God blesses them because of their righteousness, or because in this relative sense they deserve it. I can go on and on in this vane describing the way in which the Bible speaks about those who are righteous in a relative sense, yet not righteous in the absolute sense.

It is important to see this relative human righteousness in order to even begin to understand divine righteousness, the righteousness of God
If I give the sense of words and phrases you make, you post such posts as above~yet here you are doing just as I do quite often!  ::pondering::  I made my point~so let me see if the sense you applied the scriptures will support. I truly have no problem with this method of teaching, because I KNOW at times it is absolutely needed before one can understand properly what is being said, I just wanted to make a point with you~ Mission accomplished.
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 13:24:02 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #128 on: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 14:05:16 »
How was Eve given a will that was "free from sin"? I mean, come on Red! Even 4WD, who has judged me as a reprobate and placed me in the back of the bus, even he understands the error in this statement.
Well, you both should be in the back of the bus and kept at a social distance from others so they will not catch what you two have. God created/made both Adam and even in true righteousness will knowledge, wisdom, and true understanding, with NO knowledge of good and evil. They had no clue of SIN working in their members because it was NOT THERE. Not too deep btw.
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
Didn't God give Adam and Eve a will which allowed them to "choose" between God's Instructions, (Righteousness) and the instructions of "another voice" (Unrighteousness)?
Their will was indeed free of SIN, and from the power of Satan being his servants~they were God's creation, the ONLY voice they had ever heard of. So far, sin had NOT entered into the world THROUGH MAN~ Adam being the first man ever to walk on this virgin earth.
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
And after their fall, doesn't man still have in them the same will?
No, he LOST GOD'S IMAGE, he lost true holiness, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding~ he took on the Devil's image of a lover of DARKNESS~ spiritual igronace, understanding, void of God's wisdom and knowledge of knowing the will of God and having the power to do it~instead of seeking God, he does not want God in any of his thoughts, he even denies that there is a God greater than HIMSELF! If God had not sought Adam out, then he would have died in his sins and later the second death in the lake of fire. In Genesis 5:3 Adam's son was born after his FALLEN IMAGE!
Quote
Genesis 5:3~"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"
That likeness, and the image has no reference to brown eyes and black hair, etc. but his SINFUL FLESH which after the fall became at enmity against its Creator.
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
Abraham, Abel and Noah, Shem and Japheth were not "free" to choose righteousness over unrighteousness?
AFTER they were born again, they WERE INDEED free!
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
And Ham and Adam and Eve was not free to choose the same?
You are confused~Ham after fall and Adam and Eve BEFORE the fall are two totally different cases!
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
Lev. 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Here we go again~you are not rightly dividing the word of God. The ONLY people who can hear and DO what Moses is writing and commanding are the very elect and these commandments are for them, the wicked have neither power nor a will FREE FROM SIN that could hear these commandments. Now, they may outwardly be affected somewhat by them, but the true inward spirit of keeping them they cannot.
Quote
God's Word never deceived anyone Red. It's the "other voice" in the garden, who quotes some of God's Word, that deceives.
Of course not, yet the lost have DECEITFUL LUST working in their members that do deceive them! Scriptures have been quoted above from Ephesians 4, etc.
Quote from: GB Reply #125 on: Today at 08:26:32
It's not brain surgery Red. We either believe the instructions of our Lord "Man shall live by every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God" or the "other voice" in the garden, "you have no choice in the matter, you will surely not die".

My hope is that you might take this into consideration and turn to the Christ of the Bible in this matte
IF it WAS brain surgery than most of God's children COULD NOT get it, but truth MUST be made KNOWN to us by the Spirit of the Living God.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Matthew 13:11~"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."
Selah.
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 05, 2020 - 14:07:46 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #129 on: Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 07:05:47 »
I just wanted to make a point with you~ Mission accomplished.
Point taken but not conceded.


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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #130 on: Sun Sep 06, 2020 - 08:00:09 »

Offline Bemark

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #131 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 03:52:39 »
Did the angels in heaven have free will. Yes

Did Adam and Eve have free well. Yes.

We both fell. I hate free will.

My free will is please God remove it from me. My free will is to have no free will at all.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #132 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 03:57:59 »
I hope I awake one day in the garden of Eden without the knowledge of evil.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #133 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 04:34:39 »
I hope I awake one day in the garden of Eden without the knowledge of evil.
We will be without the possibility to ever be tempted again......... that we can be sure of!
Quote from: John
Revelation 2:7~"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 2:8-10~"Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
This is not limited to the apostles but to ALL of his children, some greater, some less, but to all!
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 13:10-12~"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
Mark, my brother, on that day, "your will"~ WILL BE be PERFECTLY FREE to love, worship and adore the Eternal Godhead in all of His Infinite attributes without any hindrance, or sin being present!  This we will do in a body of immortality that will possess POWER~power to think and BE THERE, etc. etc. 

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #134 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 06:50:36 »
Did the angels in heaven have free will. Yes

Did Adam and Eve have free well. Yes.

We both fell. I hate free will.

My free will is please God remove it from me. My free will is to have no free will at all.
But, Bemark, your free will to choose to love God, to do your best to obey Him, to be the sort of person He wants you to be is the very reason in the first place that He created the physical universe with physical human beings.  If all God wanted was a bunch of Calvinistic robots, he could have done that without all the folderol of this physical universe.  Free will is the very essence of God's purpose in this creation.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #135 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 07:50:18 »
Free will is the very essence of God's purpose in this creation.
If that was so, then it is so only to proves He ALONE is immutable, and that he ALONE cannot be tempted with evil! I agree with Pink, who was taught by others as we all are to a certain degree and who held fast to what just about everyone before him taught...consider:

"In the great expanse of eternity, which stretches behind Genesis 1:1, the universe was unborn and creation existed only in the mind of the great Creator. In His sovereign majesty God dwelt all alone. We refer to that far distant period before the heavens and the earth were created. There were then no angels to hymn God’s praises, no creatures to occupy His notice, no rebels to be brought into subjection. The great God was all alone amid the awful silence of His own vast universe. But even at that time, if time it could be called, God was sovereign. He might create or not create according to His own good pleasure. He might create this way or that way; He might create one world or one million worlds, and who was there to resist His will? He might call into existence a million different creatures and place them on absolute equality, endowing them with the same faculties and placing them in the same environment; or, He might create a million creatures each differing from the others, and possessing nothing in common save their creaturehood, and who was there to challenge His right? If He so pleased, He might call into existence a world so immense that its dimensions were utterly beyond finite computation; and were He so disposed, He might create an organism so small that nothing but the most powerful microscope could reveal its existence to human eyes. It was His sovereign right to create, on the one hand, the exalted seraphim to burn around His throne, and on the other hand, the tiny insect which dies the same hour that it is born. If the mighty God chose to have one vast graduation in His universe, from loftiest seraph to creeping reptile, from revolving worlds to floating atoms, from macrocosm to microcosm, instead of making everything uniform, who was there to question His sovereign pleasure?" A.W. Pink

God was not inwardly lonely or personally empty; He was entirely self-satisfied, self-content, and self-contained. So God did not create because of some limitation within Himself. Instead,
Quote from: RB
He created everything out of nothing in order to put His glory on display for the delight of His Elect and even the angels of God desired to look into his glorious display of God's works toward sinful men and themselves!
and that BOTH might declare His greatness throughout eternity Free will of both angels and man, has proven to be their downfall when LEFT to themselves, it allows God's GRACE and MERCY to be seen and declared, and known by the elect angels and ESPECIALLY SO toward the elect among sinful fallen humanity.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #136 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 08:13:05 »
If that was so, then it is so only to proves He ALONE is immutable,....
Prove that to whom?  Why would he need to create in order to prove that?  That doesn't even make sense.  God doesn't need to prove anything to anyone.

And I read your quote from Pink twice and I still do not know the point he was supposedly trying to make.

You said:
Quote
He created everything out of nothing in order to put His glory on display for the delight of His Elect and even the angels of God desired to look into his glorious display of God's works toward sinful men and themselves!
Again, why would God need to "put His glory on display" for anyone?

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #137 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 08:33:45 »
Free will of both angels and man, has proven to be their downfall when LEFT to themselves, it allows God's GRACE and MERCY to be seen and declared, and known by the elect angels and ESPECIALLY SO toward the elect among sinful fallen humanity.
Is not God's grace and mercy seen by the reprobate angels and eventually the reprobate humanity also?  Of course;  "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Php 2:9-11). Even the reprobate shall bow to God.  Again,   "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God" (Rom 14:11).  As I said, free will is the very essence of God's purpose in this creation. To establish the Kingdom of God [heaven], composed of those who freely choose to love Him.

What would God have accomplished if He created two groups of human beings, one group that could only love Him and the other group that could only hate Him?  More to the point why would God create the group of human beings that could only hate Him?

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #138 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 09:36:40 »
Man has free will that can either accept or reject God.

And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
(Rev 22:17)

It is God's desire that all men be saved. Therefore whosoever will may come.

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:3-4)

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #139 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 10:06:50 »
]John 6:63 (KJV)
63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.