Author Topic: The Sinner vs. Free Will  (Read 4124 times)

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Offline bel

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #140 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 14:20:13 »
You think you did not know the wickedness of the human heart? She taught the same to her son Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
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From bel:Where in Scripture is Mary telling Jesus that He is totally depraved?
On the contrary, children were considered a blessing from God, especially the firstborn son who was to be dedicated to the service of God.
Really? prove it. MAry gradually understood the truth about Jesus~which is clear from many scriptures, Joesph, we just do not know to the degree he fully understood and will never know until that in the world to come.
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From bel:Mary may have been confused about why Jesus was in the Temple because she and Joseph " bought him back".
Blasphemy! He was NOT born with a sinful nature~God was his Father, not Adam!
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From bel:Not only does Jesus' genealogy trace back to Adam, but Romans 1:3 says" concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH."From Jesus' own words in Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is God."
The life of faith each child of God has ever lived they did so by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST in the new man within them.
From bel:OF CHRIST is a prepositional phrase used to describe a particular faith in a particular God and a particular word. All faiths are not the same. Within Judaism there are many branches. The same goes for Christianity. Jesus' faith was not the same as that of the Levitical priesthood.I don't believe in Calvinism. It is not my faith,nor was it the faith of Christ.
« Last Edit: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 14:28:58 by bel »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #140 on: Mon Sep 07, 2020 - 14:20:13 »

Online RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #141 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 04:13:19 »
Where in Scripture is Mary telling Jesus that He is totally depraved?
On the contrary, children were considered a blessing from God, especially the firstborn son who was to be dedicated to the service of God.
Never did Mary tell Jesus that he was totally depraved? I said very distinctly:
Quote from: RB
You think she did not know the wickedness of the human heart? She taught the same to her son Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
She taught him, NOT that she said he was!  She knew otherwise since God was his Father.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 14:20:13
From bel:Mary may have been confused about why Jesus was in the Temple because she and Joseph " bought him back".
Never confused, she brought him back because being made in the likeness flesh and blood, he still was a CHILD~he yet had to GROW in wisdom and stature~part of his complex nature one being 100% HUMANITY.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 14:20:13
Not only does Jesus' genealogy trace back to Adam, but Romans 1:3 says" concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David ACCORDING TO THE FLESH."From Jesus' own words in Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is God."
His humanity is indeed traced back to David, NOT ADAM through his mother and suppose father, Joseph. Yet we KNOW that the HOLY GHOST conceived in her womb a SON by His power.
Quote from: Gabriel
Luke 1:31-35~"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
You are borderlining on teaching serious heresy! I still believe you and GB are one and the same person or at least follow each other.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 14:20:13
OF CHRIST is a prepositional phrase used to describe a particular faith in a particular God and a particular word. All faiths are not the same. Within Judaism there are many branches. The same goes for Christianity. Jesus' faith was not the same as that of the Levitical priesthood.I don't believe in Calvinism. It is not my faith,nor was it the faith of Christ.
I have no clue what you are attempting to say~other than, you reject Calvinism....so be it, that does not of itself make you right or wrong in your beliefs. Calvinism is not the word of God that we are to live by, and certainly, neither is Arminianism~a much worse heresy!

Btw, let us leave "the Levitical priesthood" out of these discussions since they have not one thing to do with our subject under consideration.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 03:31:55 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #142 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 04:38:58 »
Man has free will that can either accept or reject God.
You folks sound just like the Pharisees in John 8.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 8:32-36~"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
How blind can one be! They said to Christ that they were never in bondage to any man! Have they forgotten their fathers were IN BONDAGE IN EGYPT? If they knew the scriptures they would have known ALL SINNERS are in BONDAGE to sin and the devil since the fall.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 4:18~"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
You quoted and used "sound bites" that you think supports your doctrine:
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Revelation 22:17~"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will let him take the water of life freely.
The ones that are invited to come are those that CAN hear, those that ARE athirst and him that has A WILL that has been SET AT LIBERTY by the grace of God. All others would mock at such a fairly tell of an offer~it would be pure foolishness to them who are living under a strong delusion of the lust of the flesh. But to those who are the called of God according to his purpose, it is WONDERFUL, GLORIOUS news of eternal bliss, world without end, waiting for those who believe the wonderful news from a God who cannot lie.
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 04:41:41 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #142 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 04:38:58 »

Online RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #143 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 04:48:20 »
John 6:63 (KJV) 63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Are reading this verse carefully yogi?
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It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Need help? How much does sinful flesh profit, with its will IN BONDAGE to sin and all of its lusts?

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #143 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 04:48:20 »
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Offline yogi bear

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #144 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 15:15:23 »
Quote
Quote from: yogi bear on Yesterday at 10:06:50

   
Quote
John 6:63 (KJV) 63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Are reading this verse carefully yogi?
Quote

 
Quote
  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Need help? How much does sinful flesh profit, with its will IN BONDAGE to sin and all of its lusts?

Yes Red, I think I have read it carefully enough to understand that man can not save himself it is the spirit that quickeneth.

It is done through the word of God because the words that Christ speaks (or give his Apostles to speak) they are spirit, and they are life just as it is recorded.

So how is one saved? It is through the gospel sent out to men. The words of God call men unto him. So many scripture teach this. Man is called but not forced to accept.

Jn 6:68 — Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Jn 12:49 — For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Ro 10:8-10 — But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:17 — So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1Th 2:13 — For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Heb 4:12 — For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1Pe 1:23 — Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
   

And many many more scriptures to say the same.


Then you haven passages as this

John 3:15-17 (KJV)
15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

What do they believe? The word.
Who is the Word? Jesus
What words does Jesus teach? those God gave him.

Who should not perish? whosoever believeth in him (the gospel of Christ)

Not as you say God hand selects a few against their will (with out them choosing on their own) but whosoever believeth in him.

So Red I do not understand what you were getting at with "Need help? How much does sinful flesh profit, with its will IN BONDAGE to sin and all of its lusts? "

I feel you are going to try to tell me that man can not understand the gospel and respond while still in their sinful state but scripture and many of them discredit you assumption.

« Last Edit: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 15:17:54 by yogi bear »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #144 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 15:15:23 »



Offline bel

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #145 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 16:46:47 »
Never MAry told Jesus that he was totally depraved? I said very distinctly: She taught him, NOT that she said he was!
Quote
From bel: Just as I said before, she taught Him that He was a Son of God and trained him in the ways of righteousness . This is also what we are commanded to do:" you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down and when you rise up."

 She knew otherwise since God was his Father.
Quote
From bel:Is God not the Father of all humankind? If not, who created us?

Never confused, she brought him back because being made in the likeness flesh and blood, he still was a CHILD~he yet had to GROW in wisdom and stature~part of his complex nature one being 100% HUMANITY.
Quote
From bel: Again, as I said before,Jesus was a human just like the rest of us. Yet, He managed to overcome sin and death. He is an inspiration to all. So, we have no excuses.

His humanity is indeed traced back to David, NOT ADAM through his mother and suppose father, Joseph.
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From bel:If you believe that all humanity comes from Adam and Eve, then wouldn't this include both Joseph and Mary.
God said to the serpent: "I will put enmity between your seed and her seed( Eve). If this statement is true, then Jesus came from the seed of Adam and Eve

Btw, let us leave "the Levitical priesthood" out of these discussions since they have not one thing to do with our subject under consideration.
Quote
From bel: Yes, I do believe the Levitical priesthood is relevant to the discussion. God gave them the free will to worship the God/gods of their choice, but they did not do the same to others.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #145 on: Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 16:46:47 »

Online RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #146 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 04:11:09 »
Just as I said before, she taught Him that He was a Son of God and trained him in the ways of righteousness . This is also what we are commanded to do:" you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down and when you rise up."
I DO NOT believe she taught Jesus he was the Son of God, from many scriptures making us think otherwise. Matthew 12:46; Mark 3:31; etc. I agree we should train our children in the word of God.
Quote from:  bel on: Yesterday at 16:46:47
God not the Father of all humankind? If not, who created us?
He is not the Father of anyone in the biblical sense he was Jesus' Father. Jesus was His only begotten Son in the manner in which he was CONCIEVED. If you do not understand this cardinal truth of the word of God, you do not understand any truths~and if you reject it, then you are not born again. A man who rejects this truth has an antichrist spirit and is not of God and neither can a believer bid them God's speed.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 16:46:47
Again, as I said before,Jesus was a human just like the rest of us. Yet, He managed to overcome sin and death. He is an inspiration to all.
Jesus was 100% human, yet he was God's Son, not Adam's. He is much more than an inspiration he was God's appointed SURETY for his elect~for he did what NO MAN could ever have done in the flesh, he lived in perfect obedience to the laws of God just as perfectly as God could have done it. After all, he was the very express image of his Father!
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 16:46:47
So, we have no excuses
Excuses? He did what we could NOT do, in living perfectly in thoughts, words, and deeds from conception to death on the cross~we can not do this for a minute.......even less.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 16:46:47
If you believe that all humanity comes from Adam and Eve, then wouldn't this include both Joseph and Mary. God said to the serpent: "I will put enmity between your seed and her seed( Eve). If this statement is true, then Jesus came from the seed of Adam and Eve
Yes, ALL DID except Jesus~ He was CONCEIVED by the power of the Highest! Sir, you have a major problem that will destroy you in the lake of fire, if you are not saved from this DAMNABLE heresy.
Quote from: bel on: Yesterday at 16:46:47
Yes, I do believe the Levitical priesthood is relevant to the discussion. God gave them the free will to worship the God/gods of their choice, but they did not do the same to others.
The Levitical priesthood is GONE, long gone, like most other things in this world it had its corruptions yet we are living in the NT under the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful unto him that appointed him, and we a kingdom of priests. We have nothing to do with the OT Levitical priesthood~it is NOT relevant to NT believers.     
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 04:15:50 by RB »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #147 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 05:02:16 »
Yes Red, I think I have read it carefully enough to understand that man can not save himself it is the spirit that quickeneth.
First, man cannot even assist in helping~this is not a co-partnership endeavor.

When Jesus said the flesh profiteth nothing~he was referring to HIS FLESH, that if a man could eat of his flesh it would not spiritually profit him~( for that was the topic under discussion a few verses back ) the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. The very words spoken by Jesus Christ are spirit and life,~they are the only means of sustaining God's children especially so when they come not in word only but in power.
Quote from: Paul
1st Thessalonians 1:4,5~"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."
They are spirit, and they are life only to those called of God who receives the word of God in much assurance.
Quote from: yogi Reply #144 on: Yesterday at 15:15:23
So how is one saved? It is through the gospel sent out to men.
How is one saved LEGALLY? BY Christ's obedience/faith/righteousness ALONE..period...! How is one saved to a true understanding of Christ's gospel and our interest in it? By the hearing of faith, through the gospel. The word of God was given for this very purpose of giving to us a REVELATION of God's work in saving his elect through his Son's redemption work for them. This is how we understand such scriptures as 1st Peter 1:23. God could have chosen any way to communicate this message to us, but he chose the written word of God to do so.  The word of God is his TESTIMONY of certain truths~it is his WITNESS to us concerning truths, one being how we are born again.
Quote from: Peter
1st John 1:23~"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
The sense of this verse is this: we are born again by the TESTIMONY of the scriptures~or, by the witness of he scriptures.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 2:1,2~"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
Quote from: John
1st John 5:9-11~"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."
The word of God gives CLEAR testimony/witness of how we are born of the Spirit of God~and it IS by the obedience/faith/righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. It gives clear witness that it is NOT of him that willeth, or of him that runneth/worketh, but of God who show mercy.

I'll be back to finish...RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #148 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 07:01:48 »
Jesus was 100% human, yet he was God's Son, not Adam's. 
He was, through His mother Mary, a descendent of Adam.  He was a physical human being.  He was blood, flesh and bone just like the rest of us. Our spirit comes not from our parents; rather, our spirit is formed in each of us by God himself (Zech 12:1); the spirit of Jesus was eternal and took on the body of a human being (Heb 2:14) through conception of Mary by the Holy Spirit. Now it is true that He did not inherit Adam's sin, but then neither has anyone else.  Our flesh comes from our parents, our spirit comes from God.  Jesus flesh came from His parents (Mary as conceived through the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:20; Luke 1:35)); His Spirit came from God; His Spirit was God. John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #148 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 07:01:48 »

Online RB

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #149 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 07:44:57 »
His Spirit came from God; His Spirit was God. John 1:1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 
You might want to RETHINK what you are saying. Maybe I can move this to another thread later. Jesus' spirit was a human spirit! He died and God cannot die! As the body without the spirit is dead, so was it with Jesus. Jesus just as Stephen did commend his spirit to God! What DID NOT die was his Eternal DIVINITY, which he DID NOT receive from God, but WAS INDEED God! You need to rethink your doctrine on the Godhead~you believe Jesus was God manifest in the flesh....... just confused concerning this mystery of godliness.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #150 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 08:10:53 »
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How is one saved LEGALLY?
Wow this is new to me can someone be saved illegally?

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #151 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 08:11:04 »
What DID NOT die was his Eternal DIVINITY,
I don't even know what that means.  And I suspect that you really don't know either.

Quote from: RB
Jesus' spirit was a human spirit! He died and God cannot die!
I don't know what you are talking about there either.  Jesus did die physically.  Heb 2:14  Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, What was the "he" that likewise partook of the same things; the same things being flesh and blood?  What was it that took on flesh and blood? It was God, the Son, the Word.  Also what do you think it means that the "children share in flesh and blood"?  What or who are the children which are distinguished from flesh and blood.

It is not my doctrine on the Godhead that needs rethinking; rather it is yours.  I have observed in the past that your view of the Godhead is, to say the least, a bit fuzzy.

Quote from: RB
Maybe I can move this to another thread later.
That would be interesting.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 08:31:10 by 4WD »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #152 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 08:14:48 »
Wow this is new to me can someone be saved illegally?
Aw, yogi; don't get him started on all those different salvations. He has four or five or six of them; although I don't think illegal salvation is one of them  ::smile::   They are all constructs to keep TULIP from looking like the heretical nonsense that it really is.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 08:17:52 by 4WD »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #153 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 08:41:54 »
I just hope others viewing this can see all the spins he has to take to uphold his views.

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #154 on: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 15:53:59 »
RB, you seem to be misinterpreting "the faith of Jesus Christ". As I tried to clarify before, OF Christ is a prepositional phrase describing which particular faith, as there are many different faiths to choose from. For example, the faith of Tom or Tom's faith may not be the faith of Christ or Christ's faith. Yes, the faith of Christ is what brings salvation but in the sense that we must have the SAME faith in the SAME words and the SAME God, which is "love others as yourself." And we must live by these words.

Yes, the Levitical priesthood is no longer relevant to those who live by the faith of Christ because we left it at the door when we entered another. However, it does still exist. There are many other faiths that may not be called the "Levitical priesthood" but they follow the SAME pattern.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 16:14:51 by bel »

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Re: The Sinner vs. Free Will
« Reply #155 on: Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 06:52:39 »
RB, you seem to be misinterpreting "the faith of Jesus Christ". 
That is definitely an understatement.