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Offline TrevorL

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The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 02:39:55 »
The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled

The vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 depicts the aftermath of the Battle of Armageddon, when Jesus will have returned to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth, with the Temple built and Jesus will be reigning as King / Priest on the Throne of David in Jerusalem. The significant remnant of the Jews will be converted and the surrounding nations subjected. These nations will come up to Jerusalem to worship and to learn God’s ways.
Isaiah 2:1–5 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Events have been happening slowly, but the pace may quicken up and we need to be prepared for the return of Jesus. The Temple was destroyed in AD 70, and the Jews were taken into captivity and Jerusalem had been trodden down by the Gentiles for most of the last 2000 years Luke 21:24. But there has been a gradual progress towards the fulfilment of Isaiah 2. There have been many contributing factors, and many milestones. Mentioning a few, there was Theodor Herzl and his advocacy of a Jewish State in 1897, the Balfour Declaration in 1917, the gradual return of the Jews to the Holy Land as prophesied, the formation of the State of Israel 1947-1948, the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967 in fulfilment of the 2300 years of Daniel 8:13-14. We have yet to determine the outcome of the present troubles, and most probably things will settle down for a while, but possibly it will set up and precipitate the events surrounding the Battle of Armageddon.

Blessed is he that watches and loves the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ who will soon come to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth as prophesied in Isaiah 2:1-5, Revelation 16:15, 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline johntwayne

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #1 on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 05:01:54 »
Jesus will not return to rule on earth and He will not rebuild the temple. For what reason would He? Read the book of Hebrews; that system is long past.

Offline RB

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #2 on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 06:04:06 »
Greetings Trevorl, we have discussed this before and it seems that folks in your camp get very excited when Israel is attacked causing you and others to think the end of the world is near and Jesus is coming back for "his people" to defeat Israel's enemies and reign from Jerusalem on David's throne.

This doctrine is pure heresy from many different points of view.

1. So, you believe the church of Christ was an afterthought in God's plan, only to provoke a bunch of Christ rejecters to love him! You are listening to men and not to the voices of NT JEWISH APOSTLES who for us interpreted the OT scriptures.

2. So, you reject that the kingdom promised in the OT was not set up in the first coming of Jesus Christ? Still looking for an earthly kingdom in this world? Not going to happen.

3. So, you reject that Christ is NOW highly exalted of David throne per Peter's teaching, and the apostles meeting in the first century to discuss these things.
Quote from: PETER A JEW teaching us Gentiles concerning Jesus Christ and the throne PROMISED TO HIM and WHEN it was fulfilled
Acts 2:29-"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Trevor, these few scriptures are given to us by the Spirit of God through a JEWISH PROPHET destroys your own system of eschatology~but more than that, you are exalting a nation of rebels ABOVE JESUS CHRIST the Son of God~If I were you, I would rethink my position that takes away glory from Christ and seeks to exalt a nation of infidels, and that has made money off of the so-called "holy land" while all along rejecting the truth of the holy scriptures.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 02:39:55
These nations will come up to Jerusalem to worship and to learn God’s ways.
This is fulfilled in the NT "NEW" Jerusalem who we SHOULD pray for and love.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 02:39:55
with the Temple built
Jesus Christ will never reign in a temple built by human hands as saith the prophets and Stephen:
Quote from: Stephen
Acts 7:46-50~"Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things?
The temple of God is HIS PEOPLE where He dwells within THEM by his Spirit. SO many scriptures in the NT proving this very truth.
Quote from: PAUL A JEW BY NATURE
Ephesians 2:11-22~"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 02:39:55
The vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 depicts the aftermath of the Battle of Armageddon, when Jesus will have returned to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth................We have yet to determine the outcome of the present troubles, and most probably things will settle down for a while, but possibly it will set up and precipitate the events surrounding the Battle of Armageddon
When the last battle is fought per:
Quote from: John
Revelation 20:8,9~"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Time is NO MORE.

I'll stop for this subject has so many false doctrines connected with it that it would take months to expose them all. I just quickly spoke of some which you mentioned and that with just a few words.
« Last Edit: Sat May 15, 2021 - 06:06:59 by RB »

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #2 on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 06:04:06 »

Offline TrevorL

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #3 on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 06:48:07 »
Greetings RB,
So, you reject that Christ is NOW highly exalted of David throne per Peter's teaching
I appreciate your response. Jesus has indeed been exalted and this is fulfilling Psalm 110:1 as Acts 2 clearly expounds. God the Father, that is, Yahweh is seated upon his throne in heaven and he has invited David’s lord, our Lord Jesus Christ to be seated at God’s right hand.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, his Father in God the Father’s throne. The Father's throne is not the throne of David.
Revelation 3:21 (KJV): To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 
Jesus is to return from heaven to sit upon the throne of David:
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 1:30–33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


Kind regards
Trevor
« Last Edit: Sat May 15, 2021 - 06:50:17 by TrevorL »

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #3 on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 06:48:07 »
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Offline e.r.m.

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #4 on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 08:21:27 »
Trevorl, isn't the rapture supposed to occur before the battle of Armageddon?

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #4 on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 08:21:27 »



Offline fish153

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #5 on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 13:47:31 »
Trevor---
Thanks for your post. Israel is MOST ASSUREDLY a sign Jesus is near returning again. One thing you did not mention that is BEYOND coincidence was the discovery of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS in 1947.

Think of this "coincidence" for a moment. The Jews are scattered for 2000 years. In 1940-1945 6 million of them are destroyed. In 1948 they become a nation again.. Satan tried to prevent it from happening.. But it did three years after the end of the war.. Impossible without the Hand of God being involved.

Now, think of these Scrolls being hidden just at the time the Jews are dispersed. And they remain hidden for  2000 YEARS!! In caves. A boy discovers them when he throws a rock into a cave and hears a jar break.

How were all of these Scrolls NOT DISCOVERED for 2000 years? God's hand prohibited their being found until ISRAEL BECAME A NATION AGAIN. The Scrolls PROVE the Hebrew scriptures to be UNCHANGED for 2000 years. Isaiah was found to be the same book it is now-- no altering of it for 2000 years. These Scrolls are found just one year before Israel becomes a nation. 2000 years from dispersion to rebirth for Israel. 2000 years from dispersion to discovery for the Scrolls. Coincidence? NO WAY. This was a work of God.

This was God's timing. The people on this board who say that Israel is unimportant are greatly lacking wisdom and understanding. Israel is KEY to prophecy.

I am glad you shared this Trevor. Israel just turned 73 years old yesterday. We are Very Close to the return of Christ. We don't know the day or hour--- but we are privileged to be alive right now where we can point at a map to Israel and say "God without a doubt keeps his promises!"
« Last Edit: Sat May 15, 2021 - 13:54:13 by fish153 »

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #5 on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 13:47:31 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #6 on: Sat May 15, 2021 - 18:57:19 »
More premillennial nonsense!!

Offline TrevorL

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #7 on: Sun May 16, 2021 - 00:23:23 »
Greetings e.r.m. and fish153,
Quote
Trevorl, isn't the rapture supposed to occur before the battle of Armageddon?
I do not believe in the rapture. I believe that Jesus will return and gather the faithful to him before the Battle of Armageddon. As such they will be with Jesus upon the earth.
Quote
Israel is MOST ASSUREDLY a sign Jesus is near returning again.
Yes, I believe that a significant number of Israel will be converted at the return of Jesus. The parallel passage to Isaiah 2:1-5 is Micah 4:1-8 and this speaks of Israel becoming the first dominion in the Kingdom of God.
Quote
The Scrolls PROVE the Hebrew scriptures to be UNCHANGED for 2000 years. Isaiah was found to be the same book it is now-- no altering of it for 2000 years.
Yes, I consider the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls is significant. Also Isaiah is one of my favourite books of the Bible and my two favourite Bible chapters are Psalm 8 and Isaiah 6.

Kind regards
Trevor

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #8 on: Sun May 16, 2021 - 04:48:17 »
Greetings RB,  I appreciate your response. Jesus has indeed been exalted and this is fulfilling Psalm 110:1 as Acts 2 clearly expounds. God the Father, that is, Yahweh is seated upon his throne in heaven and he has invited David’s lord, our Lord Jesus Christ to be seated at God’s right hand. Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Trevor, I will enlarge my post if you will continue to post and we shall go in-depth if you will to do so on this subject.

Your response back was crafty (not saying on purpose since I cannot read your heart) and could easily mislead a sincere believer, but you are misinterpreting God's word on this critical doctrine.

First, God is a Spirit and does not 'sit' on a throne. When it is said that Jesus sits on the right hand of God, all that means is that Jesus is exalted as high as anyone could be exalted~it means nothing more than that.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Yesterday at 06:48:07
Jesus has indeed been exalted and this is fulfilling Psalm 110:1 as Acts 2 clearly expounds.
The emphasis are mine for discssuion~RB.

As Acts 2 clearly expounds? Well, we agree, yet you are missing how Peter applied the sense to Psalm110:1 and other OT prophesies. Let us together listen carefully to Peter's words:
Quote
Acts 2:29-36~"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Notice Peter said: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ! Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISED.......was the result of what they were witnessing on the day of Pentecost! The "throne of David" is a SPIRITUAL THRONE per Peter's application to the OT scriptures. Now, you can twist, reject this truth, but TRUTH IT IS if a person has spiritual insight into God's word. CONTEXT IS KING and it alone drives our interpretation for us, not what is happening on the national news station.

Sir, there is only ONE BODY of believers made up of JEWS and GENTILES~which were born, not because of their BLOODLINE, nor the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but of God by grace through the redemption work of Jesus Christ WITHIN this present dispensation where the kingdom of God IS and men pressed into it, no man is given a free ride in just because of the blood flowing through their veins. Once this dispensation ends at the VISIBLE (NO SECRET COMING) coming of Jesus Christ, judgment will take place and the world will end as we now know it. Do I have scriptures supporting my statements? Ask for them and you shall receive.
« Last Edit: Sun May 16, 2021 - 08:07:05 by RB »

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #8 on: Sun May 16, 2021 - 04:48:17 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #9 on: Sun May 16, 2021 - 06:09:35 »
Greetings e.r.m. and fish153, I do not believe in the rapture. I believe that Jesus will return and gather the faithful to him before the Battle of Armageddon. As such they will be with Jesus upon the earth.
The earth will no longer exist. In fact, Peter says that this universe will cease to exist.  "....we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:13).  There is no reason to think the new heavens and new earth will exist as physical entities.  With the second coming of Jesus, the physical universe will have served its purpose and will no longer be needed for anything.

Offline TrevorL

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #10 on: Sun May 16, 2021 - 07:28:14 »
Greetings again RB,

I am having trouble quoting, and so I have transferred your statements and some of the emphasis and colour and other detail may be lost - refer your post.
Quote
Your response back was crafty (not saying on purpose since I cannot read your heart) and could easily mislead a sincere believer, but you are misinterpreting God's word on this critical doctrine.
Well that accusation and assertion is a bad start. What I have stated is what I believe and if correct then it could help a sincere believer. Let us discuss whether it is right or wrong and whether what you say is right or wrong. Hopefully at least we may come closer in our understanding, or even understanding the other person’s perspective despite our different environments.

Quote
First, God is a  Spirit  and does not 'sit' on a throne. When it is said that Jesus sits on the right hand of God, all that means is that Jesus is exalted as high as anyone could be exalted~it means nothing more than that.
To accept that God is a Spirit does not preclude the idea that there is a focalisation of God’s presence, His Being and that Michael and Gabriel stand in God’s presence. There is given to us various terms such as God’s Throne, and Jesus sitting next to God in God’s Throne. There is even a contrast between Angels who stand in God’s presence, and Jesus who sits in God’s presence. We may not have an accurate understanding of what this actually represents, but God has given us these terms, and it is not sufficient to simply dismiss them by saying God is a Spirit, and for Jesus to be seated is speaking only of exaltation. We are made in the image and after the likeness of God. What this fully represents is again difficult, but we should not simply dismiss this as saying that God does not have physical being or focalisaton of his being.

Quote
As Acts 2 clearly expounds? Well, we agree, yet you are missing how Peter applied the sense to Psalm110:1 and other OT prophesies. Let us together listen carefully to Peter's words: Acts 2:29-36 (with emphasis to some parts – refer your post)

Quote
Notice Peter said: He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ! Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISED.......was the result of what they were witnessing on the day of Pentecost! The "throne of David" is a SPIRITUAL THRONE per Peter's application to the OT scriptures. Now, you can twist, reject this truth, but TRUTH IT IS if a person has spiritual insight into God's word. CONTEXT IS KING and it alone drives our interpretation for us, not what is happening on the national news station.
Where does it say that the Throne of David is a Spiritual Throne and what do you mean by this expression.

Quote
Sir, there is only ONE BODY of believers made up of JEWS and GENTILES~which were born, not because of their BLOODLINE, nor the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but of God by grace through the redemption work of Jesus Christ WITHIN this present dispensation where the kingdom of God IS and men pressed into it, no man is given a free ride in just because of the blood flowing through their veins. Once this dispensation ends at the VISIBLE (NO SECRET COMING) coming of Jesus Christ, judgment will take place and the world will end as we now know it. Do I have scriptures supporting my statements? Ask for them and you shall receive.
Another general assertion without much substance.

Kind regards
Trevor

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #11 on: Sun May 16, 2021 - 08:33:35 »
More premillennial nonsense!!
Trevor is not a typical premillennial, for he rejects the secret rapture theory, he said:
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 00:23:23
I do not believe in the rapture.
A position that has been held by some over the years~silimar to John Gill and others, yet I do not know all he believes, but we shall soon see if he will just stay around this time a little longer.

Now I believe in a rapture, just not a secret one separated by seven years before he comes again to save the nation of Israel and then sets up an earthly kingdom in a literal city, where you have natural bodies dwelling with gloried bodies all mixed together, and animals sacrifices reinstated, etc, etc. A doctrine that REJECTS Christ's first coming and what he FULFILLED when he came. All the word rapture means is "caught up" which will happen with those living who are children of God, when Christ returns to destroy his enemies INCLUDING the nation of Israel of those which have not been born of God BEFORE he comes again! It's not that difficult to divide properly.  He came to redeem the HOUSE OF JACOB, who are the very elect AMONG both Jews and Gentiles~and he did just that when he came ONCE to put away sin and is coming again........
Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST
Hebrews 9:28~So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
« Last Edit: Sun May 16, 2021 - 09:20:48 by RB »

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #12 on: Sun May 16, 2021 - 09:20:04 »
Greetings again RB,
Greetings to you as well.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 07:28:14
To accept that God is a Spirit does not preclude the idea that there is a focalisation of God’s presence
I'm not presenting a perspective through which I THINK God IS presented, but what he ACUTALLY IS per Jesus' teachings:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST, God's Son
John 4:26~"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
You and others may present God in a way that YOU think he is, yet that does not change the truth that he IS A SPIRIT~period. Always has been, always WILL BE and that can NEVER CHANGE, no, never.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 07:28:14
His Being and that Michael and Gabriel stand in God’s presence.
He is omnipresent, so, in one sense we all stand in his presence, he's everywhere at one time! There is NO PLACE that he is not.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 07:28:14
Jesus sitting next to God in God’s Throne.
Two things, maybe three~Jesus SITTING at the right hand of God shows that his work of redemption IS FINISHED. Jesus at the right hand of God shows that he is exalted as high as anyone can be exalted. We should not allow the right hand of God cause us any problems by attempting to bring God down to our level~ thinking he has literal hands, eyes, etc. The scriptures are using language that we understand to convey biblical truths.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 07:28:14
We may not have an accurate understanding of what this actually represents, but God has given us these terms, and it is not sufficient to simply dismiss them by saying God is a Spirit, and for Jesus to be seated is speaking only of exaltation.
Well, we should have an understanding of what is being represented by these terms that He has chosen to use.  By KNOWING that he is a Spirit which we can and should know if we know anything. If you have a better way of proving your doctrine WITHOUT saying that God is a Spirit and does not have literal hands, eyes, etc., etc.~ Then let me hear it.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 07:28:14
We are made in the image and after the likeness of God. What this fully represents is again difficult, but we should not simply dismiss this as saying that God does not have physical being or focalisaton of his being.
No Trevor it is not difficult, it is only difficult with those who have error in their doctrine. God the Father has NO physical being. period. God the Son does. The image in which man was created speaks of HOLINESS/RIGHTEOUSNESS, KNOWLEDGE, and UNDERSTANDING, all attributes that ARE INVISIBLE that a Spirit can possess without a body!
Quote from: Paul
Ephesians 4:23,24~And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Again:
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 3:10~“And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”
Trevor, you are confused thinking that God is like man with physical body parts.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 07:28:14
Where does it say that the Throne of David is a Spiritual Throne and what do you mean by this expression.
Later.....RB
« Last Edit: Sun May 16, 2021 - 13:07:08 by RB »

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #13 on: Sun May 16, 2021 - 14:00:12 »
Go here and we will also talk about Isaiah's teaching on the kingdom of Jesus Christ.   http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/bible-verses/isaiah-22/msg1055183153/#msg1055183153

Offline fish153

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #14 on: Sun May 16, 2021 - 14:53:15 »
Trevori—-

Please note that as the flood drew near Enoch was Raptured. “And he was not, for God took him”. Jesus said “as it was in the Days of Noah, so shall it be when the Son of Man returns”. Enoch is a TYPE of the raptured church. In fact Enoch prophesied of the VERY END. No one could find Enoch—they didn’t know where he had gone. The church shall also be taken this way—in the twinkling of an eye.

Some call this premillennial “nonsense”. Fine. Many in Noah’s day called his preaching about a coming deluge “nonsense” also. I really don’t care. There will clearly be a rapture of the church— the Bible teaches it. The Bible also teaches that the Jews will return to their land from whence they have been scatttered. God has CLEARLY kept that promise. They are currently in unbelief. But in the future that WHOLE NATION will turn to Jesus Christ in ONE DAY. The Bible teaches this and I believe it.

The Rapture could be tomorrow, or a thousand years from now. But IT WILL HAPPEN most assuredly. Those who deny it are very misled, and need to read their Bible’s again. May God bless you and all those who disagree. We aren’t saved by believing or not believing in a rapture. We are all brothers in Christ. Hallelujah!

Offline TrevorL

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #15 on: Sun May 16, 2021 - 23:49:19 »
Greetings again RB and fish153,
Quote from: RB
Now I believe in a rapture
Quote from: fish123
The Rapture could be tomorrow, or a thousand years from now. But IT WILL HAPPEN most assuredly. Those who deny it are very misled, and need to read their Bible’s again.

Seeing that you both speak about the rapture, I will consider this briefly. I do not know what you believe concerning the rapture, and I do not know what is the sequence. My only impression on this subject is that those that hold this view believe that they will be caught up to heaven during the time of trouble, and that this was made popular by the Left Behind Series and other teaching.

My understanding is that Jesus returns, he gathers the faithful and some unfaithful for judgement, they are hidden away for a while, and then God’s judgements come upon the earth, possibly starting with the Battle of Armageddon. Some of the verses that I base these ideas upon are the following, and I suggest that none of these teach the rapture.
1 Peter 4:17 (KJV): For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Thessalonians 4:14–18 (KJV): 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Isaiah 26:19–21 (KJV): 19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Quote from: RB
God the Father has NO physical being. period. God the Son does.
I disagree on two counts. I believe that God the Father has a physical being. A Spirit Being can have a physical presence. I believe that Jesus has now a Spirit Body, but he is still a man, a human. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I do not think that we have resolved Acts 2 and the important quotations from Psalm 110:1, Psalm 16 and the Promises to David 2 Samuel 7:12-16. I believe that a proper understanding of all of these necessitate the return of Jesus to sit upon the Throne of David and to establish the Kingdom of God as depicted in Isaiah 2:1-5.

Another important passage that helps to understand this is:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. This ties in strongly with Acts 2 and especially Psalm 110:1 where Jesus after being seated at the right hand of God in heaven and we have the word “until” and here Jesus is shown to be sent forth by God to establish the Kingdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline RB

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #16 on: Mon May 17, 2021 - 04:57:56 »
Some call this premillennial “nonsense”.
Fish, it is much worse than nonsense~this doctrine rejects so many Cardinal truths of the scriptures and exalts a nation of wicked men above the very elect~the Church of Jesus Christ, the ONLY true apple of God's holy eyes made up of Jews and Gentiles who loves God, His Son Jesus Christ, and the word of God, ALL of it both OT and NT testaments scriptures. We do not have an affidavit from heaven to declare what you are saying to be the truth. You have gotten that from the writings of men who have received that passed down from Judaism. You are giving Israel a false hope and causing them to think that their salvation IS YET TO COME at the coming of Jesus Christ mainly for them! THat's allowing yourself to be used of the Devil to give that nation a false hope while rejecting Jesus' redeeming work for his very elect who ar saved by GRACE, not because of RACE.

I once was taught this many years ago when I first came to Christ but very soon realized I had NO SUPPORT from God's word to continue teaching this, so I left that camp almost forty-five years ago.

Now, if you like we can look at some of the statements you made, such as:
Quote from:  fish153 on: Yesterday at 14:53:15
There will clearly be a rapture of the church— the Bible teaches it. The Bible also teaches that the Jews will return to their land from whence they have been scatttered. God has CLEARLY kept that promise. They are currently in unbelief. But in the future that WHOLE NATION will turn to Jesus Christ in ONE DAY. The Bible teaches this and I believe it.
That was a mouth full dear friend, (and I DO consider you a friend and a lover of God, just very confused, which is why we all are here to help one another) but you have no scriptures to support any of that. Would you like to provide those scriptures and let us consider them?

Offline RB

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #17 on: Mon May 17, 2021 - 05:25:40 »
Seeing that you both speak about the rapture, I will consider this briefly. I do not know what you believe concerning the rapture, and I do not know what is the sequence. My only impression on this subject is that those that hold this view believe that they will be caught up to heaven during the time of trouble, and that this was made popular by the Left Behind Series and other teachings.
All I said was that I believe in a rapture and then explained myself by simply stating that the word means: "to be caught up"~and that's exactly what will happen when Jesus returns at the last day to gather together his elect and to destroy his enemies all happening (his coming and the resurrection which is one and the same doctrine as the rapture that is taught in the scriptures) at a twinkling of an eye~per 1st Corinthians 15.

Fish's doctrine is much more complicated to explain than my understanding of the truth~The pre-mill doctrine of the rapture was not made popular by the Left Behind Series and other teachings~but by the Scofield Reference Bible 1917 edition. That false teaching actually stimulated or created the Left Behind Series and other teachings Up until then the world of religion for the most part were one in teaching the resurrection of both the righteous and sinners would take place at the last day of this world's history~the first recorded teaching of the secret rapture theory actually started around 1828 through a woman ( Scottish girl named Margaret Mac-donald ) who had a vison~you can read online as much as you desire to read to see just how close I'm~I have read a lot over the years on this subject.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Yesterday at 23:49:19
My understanding is that Jesus returns, he gathers the faithful and some unfaithful for judgement, they are hidden away for a while, and then God’s judgements come upon the earth
That's a first! You made a couple of strange statements, care to explain?
Quote from: TrevorL on: Yesterday at 23:49:19
I disagree on two counts. I believe that God the Father has a physical being. A Spirit Being can have a physical presence.
Prove it~I'm listening.
« Last Edit: Mon May 17, 2021 - 09:43:16 by RB »

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #18 on: Mon May 17, 2021 - 06:08:05 »
I believe that God the Father has a physical being. A Spirit Being can have a physical presence.
What does that even mean? Is God made up of molecules of physical matter? The physical is a result of creation. So then did God give Himself a body at creation?  If not, then what?  Such thinking is at the heart of so much of the trivializing of eternal life for the believer.

Offline TrevorL

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #19 on: Mon May 17, 2021 - 10:07:05 »
Greetings again RB and 4WD,
Quote from: RB
That's a first! You made a couple of strange statements, care to explain?
2 Timothy 4:1 speaks about the judgement when Jesus returns to establish the Kingdom. Daniel 12:2-3 speaks about the resurrection of the faithful and unfaithful and implies the judgement. Isaiah 26:19-21 speaks about the resurrection and that the faithful are hidden for a while after the resurrection while there are judgements on the nations.

Quote from: RB
Prove it~I'm listening.
Quote from: 4WD
What does that even mean? Is God made up of molecules of physical matter?
Revelation 3:21 (KJV): To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Quote from: 4WD
The earth will no longer exist. In fact, Peter says that this universe will cease to exist.  "....we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:13).  There is no reason to think the new heavens and new earth will exist as physical entities.  With the second coming of Jesus, the physical universe will have served its purpose and will no longer be needed for anything.
Isaiah 65:17 and its context does not indicate a replacement heaven and earth, but the same heaven and earth with a change of government and the people converted and blessed. Even 2 Peter 3 uses the same concept of heaven and earth when speaking of the world that perished in Noah’s time.
2 Peter 3:5–7 (KJV): 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Kind regards Trevor

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #20 on: Mon May 17, 2021 - 12:01:54 »
I certainly hope you are not too disappointed when you find out just how wrong you are.

Offline Rella

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #21 on: Mon May 17, 2021 - 15:58:25 »
What does that even mean? Is God made up of molecules of physical matter? The physical is a result of creation. So then did God give Himself a body at creation?  If not, then what?  Such thinking is at the heart of so much of the trivializing of eternal life for the believer.

Trevor L is obviously wrong.... but Exodus 33 says this

 22 As my glorious presence passes by, I will hide you in the crevice of the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and let you see me from behind.

God has a hand? One that could shield Moses from seeing Him as he passed by?

God has a behind? One that Moses could see after He had passed by?

God may not have a body as we do, but he has some form of something, and it is this form I believe He meant when He made mankind in their image.

Yes, God is spirit... no doubt.. but you do not know if in heaven if he has a form that can sit or not. Jesus had a body like us. Jesus also ascended to the father and got His ... if I can simplify this.. "glorified " body and sits at the right hand of God.

Yet Jesus is God and Jesus also is spirit.

so we actually cannot make the statement when we know for a fact that God had a hand to shield Moses and Moses saw his back side.

Offline fish153

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #22 on: Mon May 17, 2021 - 20:45:25 »
Israel dispersed.    Deuteronomy 28:58-68
Banished to all countries.   Jer. 16:15 and Jer 23:8
PRESERVED in dispersion.  Jer. 31:35-37

REGATHERED: Isaiah 11:11,12. From all four corners of the earth!!

REGATHERED in Unbelief.  Ezekiel 37:1-28  REGATHERED but they have no “spirit”
See also Ezekiel 11:17-21, Ezekiel 36:24-28, and Zech. 12:10

I have to ask you. WHY is a tiny country like Israel CONSTANTLY in the News?  How does a tiny country like Israel export to over 90 countries, and is considered to have some of the best produce in the whole world?  God is BLESSING them is the answer. Why is this tiny country SO HATED by much of the world? Does the word “DEVIL” ring any bells? He tried to destroy the Jews in the 1940’s shortly before they became a nation. He could see it coming and he tried to prevent it from happening.

You have to be BLIND not to see the importance of this tiny country in prophecy. Absolutely BLIND. ISRAEL is God’s time clock. They are the KEY to all end times prophecy. I am literally astounded at some of you. Instead of THANKING GOD for allowing you to live at this time, when He has fulfilled one of His GREATEST PROMISES, you are reviling his earthly people, and stating that they mean nothing!  Lord, please forgive them, even though they are purposefully closing their eyes!!

Offline TrevorL

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #23 on: Mon May 17, 2021 - 23:17:02 »
Greetings again Rella,
Quote from: Rella
Jesus had a body like us. Jesus also ascended to the father and got His ... if I can simplify this.. "glorified " body and sits at the right hand of God. Yet Jesus is God and Jesus also is spirit.
I believe that Jesus was resurrected and was changed to immortality soon after his resurrection. The Apostles saw Jesus in his immortal, resurrected body. Perhaps the best picture of what the glorified body of Jesus is like is the Transfiguration. I consider that Jesus can withhold his glory, and like the Angels appear as normal men. Jesus revealed his greater glory to Paul on the way to Damascus.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #24 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 04:31:08 »
I believe that Jesus was resurrected and was changed to immortality soon after his resurrection. The Apostles saw Jesus in his immortal, resurrected body.
You think Jesus is physically sitting on a throne in a physical heaven in a body that has holes from the nails in His hands and a hole from the spear in His side?  And that is what you think an immortal, glorified body is?  Will the little child whose body was mangled in a automobile accident be resurrected in that mangled body?  What an absolutely appalling idea.  The physical body is the source of most sin.  To think that we will again be stuck with such a distraction in heaven is grotesque.

Offline RB

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #25 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 05:20:28 »
God may not have a body as we do, but he has some form of something, and it is this form I believe He meant when He made mankind in their image.
This should be in its own thread, but for now, let me sat this:
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 6:16~"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
I'm sure that many mortals can truly touch the surface of this verse, I for one cannot.

God dwells in a light which no man can approach unto~Such is the excessive glory of God, that neither angel nor man can approach it. It is indeed equally unapproachable to all created beings~ONLY Jesus Christ as a man NOW SHARES with him AS the Word that was made flesh being ONE with God in his Deity.

"Whom no man hath seen, nor can see"~Moses himself could only see the symbol of the Divine presence, but the Spirit of God no man could ever see. Because he is infinite and eternal, therefore he is incomprehensible; and if incomprehensible to the mind, consequently invisible to the eye.

"To whom"~As the author of being, and the dispenser of all good, be ascribed honour and power~the sole authority of all-pervading, all-superintending, all-preserving, and everlasting might.

The words of Paul are inimitably sublime. It is a doubt whether human language can be carried much higher, even under the influence of inspiration, in a description of the Supreme Being. God inhabiteth eternity that no man or angels could ever see and then live~Moses got only a symbol of his infinite glory~we see God in the person of Jesus Christ and will be the only God we shall ever see. Even Jesus Christ AS MAN will subject himself to his Father being inferior to him AS A MAN~God alone will be ALL in ALL in that day! I owe much to Adam Clark ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Clarke ) who I feel had the best understanding of the teachings of the Godhead than any man I have ever read behind. Some of what I have said is his own words. You can read behind him on Hebrews one; Luke one and 1st Timothy 6, etc.
Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 15:58:25
it is this form I believe He meant when He made mankind in their image
We must be careful:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 1:22,23~"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Again:
Quote from: ISAIAH
Isaiah 40:18-28~To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved. Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth. Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God? Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding."
The sin of Romans one we must avoid thinking that God's image is likened unto sinful man~far from it. He is a Spirit, which has INFINITE, power, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and holiness so much so, he cannot even look at sin. The man was created in this image in the beginning in holiness, wisdom, understanding, and true knowledge~NOT with infinite for that is imossible~yet after God's image.

Offline RB

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #26 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 05:36:10 »
I have to ask you. WHY is a tiny country like Israel CONSTANTLY in the News?  How does a tiny country like Israel export to over 90 countries, and is considered to have some of the best produce in the whole world?  God is BLESSING them is the answer. Why is this tiny country SO HATED by much of the world? Does the word “DEVIL” ring any bells? He tried to destroy the Jews in the 1940’s shortly before they became a nation. He could see it coming and he tried to prevent it from happening.

You have to be BLIND not to see the importance of this tiny country in prophecy. Absolutely BLIND. ISRAEL is God’s time clock. They are the KEY to all end times prophecy. I am literally astounded at some of you. Instead of THANKING GOD for allowing you to live at this time, when He has fulfilled one of His GREATEST PROMISES, you are reviling his earthly people, and stating that they mean nothing!  Lord, please forgive them, even though they are purposefully closing their eyes!!
OKay, maybe later I'll have time to address this a little at a time. I have three of my oldest grandchildren coming today for a few days that will require some of my time. My wife asked me last night to explain to her what is going on in the middle east and if it has any biblical ramifications even though I have mentioned this to her on several occasions I will do so once more.  I will post here so she as well as others can read for themselves.
Quote from: Fish153
ISRAEL is God’s time clock.
Fish, you CANNOt prove this with scriptures. Spiritual Israel, yes, natural Israel, no more than any other nation on the face of the whole earth. So, you truly believe that salvation is of RACE and not GRACE, correct?  One more quickly:
Quote from: Fish153
Why is this tiny country SO HATED by much of the world?
They are NOT hated as much as the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD, be sure of that truth! Later....RB

Offline TrevorL

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #27 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 05:55:16 »
Greetings again 4WD and RB,
Quote from: 4WD
The physical body is the source of most sin.  To think that we will again be stuck with such a distraction in heaven is grotesque.
Using extreme language and ideas is not helpful. I believe that the resurrected body is exactly that, the body that has been raised from the dead, and then given life again, and then changed to immortality. The same body, but changed, no longer subject to sin and death. This body is not an immortal soul or immaterial spirit.

Quote from: RB
Such is the excessive glory of God, that neither angel nor man can approach it.
Where do you get the idea that Angels are not able to stand in the presence of God. Gabriel states that he is one of these Angels.
Luke 1:19 (KJV): And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
Kind regards Trevor


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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #28 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 06:21:07 »
This should be in its own thread, but for now, let me sat this: I'm sure that many mortals can truly touch the surface of this verse, I for one cannot.



Yes, it needs its own thread.

But allow me to say one thing before moving on the the main business of this thread.

Question.  Do you think Moses lied? Do you think God would support a lie, especially being in our handbook?

We have been told God had a hand to shield Moses with.

We were told God allowed Moses to see his back side. What that would be we have no idea as Moses never said.

But I do believe we all know what a hand should look like.

Is it possible God used some prop... like one of those plastic back scratcher hands that were popular 50 years ago? Sure.

Is it possible God manifested a hand out of thin air by speaking? Sure.

I think it is equally possible for God to have a spiritual body that we simply cannot comprehend. He did, afterall, come talk to Moses so He is not confined to the omnipresent spiritual being that a lot of people claim He is all the time.




Offline 4WD

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #29 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 08:05:40 »
Using extreme language and ideas is not helpful.
What extreme language and ideas?
Quote
I believe that the resurrected body is exactly that, the body that has been raised from the dead, and then given life again, and then changed to immortality. The same body, but changed, no longer subject to sin and death. This body is not an immortal soul or immaterial spirit.
What is the purpose of that body?  Does it eat, sleep, drink, eliminate waste? Does it need oxygen to breath?  Is gravity still operative?  How does one get around? Do the laws of physics still exist? Chemistry? Does Iron rust?  Does that body need energy to move? Will we be back the the very primitive situation of walking or will we have animals to ride?  Does that body see? How? Is there still physical light?  From what?

It seems to me that any answers to these questions, and hundreds more, definitely constitute extreme language and ideas.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #30 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 08:37:36 »
You think Jesus is physically sitting on a throne in a physical heaven in a body that has holes from the nails in His hands and a hole from the spear in His side? 
Absolutely!

Quote
The physical body is the source of most sin.  To think that we will again be stuck with such a distraction in heaven is grotesque.
Actually, the idea that the physical body being inherently sinful is what is grotesque.  That is a concept rooted in pagan gnostic dualism rather than the Bible.

God created the body and called it "good."
The "flesh" or "fallen nature" or yetzer hara [evil inclination] or what ever you want to call it, is NOT the physical body.

Offline 4WD

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #31 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 11:06:28 »
Absolutely!
Ridiculous
Quote
Actually, the idea that the physical body being inherently sinful is what is grotesque.
Who said anything about the physical body being inherently sinful?  I said it is the source of most sin. That comes directly from God, Himself: 1Jn_2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #32 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 11:16:35 »
Quote from: 4WD
You think Jesus is physically sitting on a throne in a physical heaven in a body that has holes from the nails in His hands and a hole from the spear in His side
Absolutely!
The Bible teaches that Christ's Body is now the fellowship of believers.  We are the physical extension of the Mind of Christ.

This would seem to preclude what you suggest.  How do you reconcile this difficulty?

Quote from: 4WD
The physical body is the source of most sin.  To think that we will again be stuck with such a distraction in heaven is grotesque.
Actually, the idea that the physical body being inherently sinful is what is grotesque.  That is a concept rooted in pagan gnostic dualism rather than the Bible.
That idea pre-dates gnosticism.  Asceticism can be observed almost universally in human cultures going back as far as history records.

Biblically, fasting is common.  The prophets are observed living in the wilderness, wearing coats of hair and eating locusts.  God had several of the minor prophets do some pretty extreme things.

God created the body and called it "good."  The "flesh" or "fallen nature" or yetzer hara [evil inclination] or what ever you want to call it, is NOT the physical body.
A body is not inherently evil, but a physical body comes with needs and wants that "give occasion" to sinning.  And that is why there is a necessity for a spiritual body.

Jarrod

Offline fish153

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #33 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 13:41:58 »
OF COURSE Jesus is sitting in a Physical body (a new spiritual resurrected body). In Luke he appears in that body and eats fish in front of the disciples. He appeared to Thomas in that body and showed him his hands and side.

Jesus ASCENDED back to Heaven in that body. And the angels said He would return exactly as He had left. Why is it called "The throne of God and of the Lamb" throughout Revelation? Because Jesus is there in a resurrected body-- wouldn't it just be called "the throne of God" if he wasn't in a body? Think about it.

I have truly been amazed visiting this board lately. People question whether Jesus is in Heaven with a resurrected body??? What??? People say Israel is not important. What?? Geez. God help us all.

Offline RB

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Re: The Vision of Isaiah 2:1-5 Soon to be Fulfilled
« Reply #34 on: Tue May 18, 2021 - 14:28:31 »
Where do you get the idea that Angels are not able to stand in the presence of God. Gabriel states that he is one of these Angels. Luke 1:19 (KJV): And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
To stand before God signifies to be ready to yield obedience~after all, it is IMPOSSIBLE to literally stand before God because he's a Spirit that fills heaven and earth dwelling in no certain place! To labor to put God into ONE PLACE proves one does not even have a small understanding of His greatness, which NONE of us truly have very much, HIs greatness is unsearchable by even by angels!
Quote from: TrevorL
on: Today at 05:55:16
I believe that the resurrected body is exactly that, the body that has been raised from the dead, and then given life again, and then changed to immortality. The same body, but changed, no longer subject to sin and death. This body is not an immortal soul or immaterial spirit.
Agreed
Quote from: fish153 on: Today at 13:41:58
OF COURSE Jesus is sitting in a Physical body (a new spiritual resurrected body). In Luke he appears in that body and eats fish in front of the disciples. He appeared to Thomas in that body and showed him his hands and side.
Agreed~the resurrected body of Jesus could think to be somewhere and be there by disappearing and then appearing instantly~ faster than the speed of light! There some things about the resurrected body that we do not know and must wait to experience its GLORIOUS POWER~sowed in weakness, yet raised in POWER! Sowed a natural body, raised a spiritual body, etc.
Quote from: Rella
Question.  Do you think Moses lied? Do you think God would support a lie, especially being in our handbook?
Of course not. I'll come back and consider your post in the morning. RB