Author Topic: The Yahweh Name  (Read 3745 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TrevorL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
The Yahweh Name
« on: Sat May 22, 2021 - 07:45:34 »
The Yahweh Name Part 1 Initial Declaration and Fulfilment
The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The Name of God was revealed to Moses in the following terms:
Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

The word “ehyeh” is in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline TrevorL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #1 on: Sat May 22, 2021 - 07:47:20 »
The Yahweh Name Part 2 The Fulfilment in our Lord Jesus Christ
The initial fulfillment was not the ultimate completion of the Yahweh Name. God’s purpose with the earth was not complete with the salvation of Israel out of Egypt. God’s purpose was declared in the following, but sadly this was spoken at a time when the very generation that had been born through God’s deliverance failed.
Numbers 14:21 (KJV): But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

The above raises the question of how and when will the earth be filled with the glory of God. One indication is found when the Psalmist uses the same words as Moses’ Song to speak of another deliverance:
Psalm 118:14-25 (KJV): 14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation. 15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly. 17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD. 18 The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

The above is quoted at length to show that there was to be a greater salvation in fulfillment of the Yahweh Name. It is evident from the context that this salvation is by means of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of the man of God’s right hand, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The greater deliverance is revealed even in the conception and birth of the child:
Matthew 1:20-21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The meaning of the name Jesus is revealed: “for he shall save his people from their sins”. Was Jesus to be an independent Saviour? No, the name Jesus incorporates the Yahweh Name, Je-sous, Jo-shua, or Yah-oshea. He was to be Yahweh’s Salvation. Here then is the extension or fulfillment of the Yahweh Name, Yahweh was to be, to become. He was to “become salvation” Exodus 15:2, in and through Jesus, the Son of God. Yahweh is the Saviour, Jesus is the Saviour. In other words Yahweh, God the Father is the Saviour through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Yahweh has become salvation.

Salvation is now offered in the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 4:10-12 (KJV): 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The subject of God’s Name has many other aspects, but I suggest the more we understand some of these aspects, the more we realise that the spelling and pronunciation of the Name, while important, is not as important as understanding the Name. Here are a few examples of other aspects:
Psalm 9:10 (KJV): And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
John 12:27–28 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11003
  • Manna: 424
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #2 on: Sun May 23, 2021 - 05:45:18 »
The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Well, Trevor you certainly (or, whoever wrote these articles) did not help, but only confused minds of men and women seeking to understand biblical truths. You started out by simply using the name of Yahweh for God's name without ever establishing scriptural proof for doing so! That is deceitful....... maybe unintentionally, nevertheless very cunningly done.

Moses speaking to God after he and Aaron return from speaking to Pharoh, instead of letting Israel go it only got worse for them, and Moses being discouraged said to God.....
Quote
Exodus 5:22b,23~".........wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people? why is it that thou hast sent me? For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all."
Next we read:
Quote
Exodus 6:1-3~Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Trevor, stay with me, for I'm convinced that all who call God by the name Yahweh~are only showing their biblical ignorance of God Almighty's name that he has shown to us very clearly if we follow the scriptures. NOWHERE in the scriptures is the name Yahweh ever found, it has to be read into the scriptures for some strange reason. For that name was never revealed to Moses or any other prophet of God.

Tervor, we all agree that Abraham was friend of God, so let us start with him and see what we learn about the name of God in the scriptures.
Quote
Genesis 17:1~"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
I am the Almighty God....Follow me. Next we come to Isaac who also KNEW his father's God by the name of.....
Quote
Genesis 29:1-4~"And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham."
So far, Yahweh is never mentioned. Let us keep going.

Jacob knew his father's God:
Quote
Gensis 35:10-12~"And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
So far the only name they knew was God Almighty~Not until Moses do we learn God's FULL NAME~and Yahweh is not one of them! Later....RB

Offline TrevorL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #3 on: Sun May 23, 2021 - 06:25:15 »
Greetings again RB,
Quote from: RB
You started out by simply using the name of Yahweh for God's name without ever establishing scriptural proof for doing so!
The rendition Yahweh is accepted by many scholars, and there are a few translations that use Yahweh for YHWH. I am not claiming to know how it would have been pronounced, and possibly the spelling may only be approximate. I do not accept the rendition Jehovah as I consider this to be erroneous.  While I wait for the rest of your answer, I have added some additional details below:
 
The Yahweh Name Part 3 Additional considerations
In my first post I mentioned that the margin of the Revised Version has "I will be" for Exodus 3:14, and one of the supporters of this rendition could have been AB Davidson as he was one of the Hebrew scholars engaged in the production of the RV. Please note that I do not endorse all of his theology, as he was most probably a Trinitarian and also had other wrong ideas, but his Hebrew abilities have been respected and some of his Hebrew books were published in new editions until recently.
 
The following article is by AB Davidson is in the Hastings Bible Dictionary Volume 2 page 199:
"The name is connected with the Hebrew ‘hayah’, ‘to be’, in the imperfect. Now with regard to this verb, first, it does not mean ‘to be’ essentially or ontologically, but phenomenally; and secondly the imperfect has not the sense of a present (‘am’) but of a future (‘will be’). In Exodus 3:10ff, when Moses demurred to go to Egypt, God assured him saying, ‘I will be with thee’. When he asked how he should name the God of their fathers to the people, he was told Ehyeh asher Ehyeh. Again he was bidden say, ‘Ehyeh hath sent me unto you’. From all this it seems evident that in the view of the writer Ehyeh and Yahweh are the same: that God is Ehyeh, ‘I will be’, when speaking of Himself and ‘Yahweh’, ‘he will be’, when spoken of by others. What He will be is left unexpressed - He will be with them, helper, strengthener, deliverer."
Now this last comment by AB Davidson ties in with what I suggested that what God would do or be was that Yahweh would be their salvation.
 
Another additional aspect is that this could also be connected with the expression in the promises to David:
2 Samuel 7:12–16 (KJV): 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. 
The development of the Name Yahweh will not only be associated with what God would accomplish, that is salvation, but also associated with the development of the Messiah, through whom salvation will be accomplished, Yahweh will be his father, and he will be Yahweh’s son.
 
Kind regards
Trevor

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #3 on: Sun May 23, 2021 - 06:25:15 »

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11003
  • Manna: 424
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 05:07:49 »
I do not accept the rendition Jehovah as I consider this to be erroneous.
Trevor, rather you or I do or not accept something does not make it right or wrong, but, if the scriptures give testimony to something, then that is THE TRUTH~and it would be wise for every man to believe God's testimony over other voices in this world.

Until Moses, no one knew God's name to be JEHOVAH, for it was never revealed to anyone, not even Abraham, Noah, and Enoch, the seventh from Adam.
Quote
Exdous 6:3~"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."
By your own confession, he is not known to you by his name Jehovah.

Let us consider God's name JEHOVAH.
Quote from: David
Psalms 83:16-18~"Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD. Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish: That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."
WHAT a WONDERFUL testimony from king David, who knew God's name to be not Yahweh , but JEHOVAH.
Quote from: The prophet Isaiah knew God's name
Isaiah 12:1,2 (verse three we will save for later for it will explain to us what Jehovah means) ~"And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."
Again:
Quote
Isaiah 26:3,4~"Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:"
Amen, and Amen! There's much more.
Quote
Psalms 68:3-5~"Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him. A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation. God setteth the solitary in families: he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.

The next points need a few posts to make our position clear, even though scriptures already used have proven this to any sincere lover of the truth, who lives by every word of God and not by the voices that are in the world....... later we shall finish this. RB
« Last Edit: Mon May 24, 2021 - 05:20:47 by RB »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #4 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 05:07:49 »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #5 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 06:52:30 »
Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Actually, yud hay vav hay is not just past future or present tense.  It is all 3 and at the same time none of them.

If the christian so-called Hebrew scholars would actually READ the writings of the people who know the language they would not have to guess like that.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #6 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 07:12:27 »
The rendition Yahweh is accepted by many scholars, and there are a few translations that use Yahweh for YHWH. I am not claiming to know how it would have been pronounced, and possibly the spelling may only be approximate. I do not accept the rendition Jehovah as I consider this to be erroneous.  While I wait for the rest of your answer, I have added some additional details below:
I would submit that both are equally wrong for different reasons.

"Jehovah" 
Interesting story on how that came to be.  Jews have not even attempted to pronounce that Name since the Temple was destroyed in 70 ad; and before then only the High Priest would say it on Yom Kippur.  So the tradition arose during the first century bc that "Adonai" or My Lord was said instead.  When the Masorites (circa 1000 ad) published their official vowel pointed text of the Hebrew scriptures, to remind people to say Adonai instead of trying to pronounce yud hay vav hay, the vowel points of Adonai were added to the letters.  Also, before the year 1000, there was no "J" sound in any language anywhere on the planet.  It was invented by the Arabs and slowly worked its way thru the various languages and arrived in english only in the 1600s.  In the 1611 KJV, there were no Js anywhere.  Jehovah was spelled Iehovah.  Jesus was spelled Ieusus.  Etc.  When the KJV translators came to the tetragramaton, they mistook the Adonai vowel points as being the REAL vowels of The NAME.   Hence Iehovah, which in later printings became Jehovah. 

"Yahweh"
That is a product of a made-up version of Hebrew pronunciation called "academic" which never existed outside of Christian seminaries.  It substitutes too many Greek forms. 
In Hebrew there NEVER was a TH- sound. 
There never was a W sound.
So even your YHWH is wrong.  It should be YHVH.  But since the Name has not actually been pronounced at all in 2000 years, and not in public bible readings in probably another 500 before that, no one REALLY knows.  Everything is a guess. 

If I had to guess, I would go with something close to the next closest name in scripture - Judah which is spelled yud hay vav dalet hay. (adds a D sound) That is pronounced Yahudah. Minus the D sound you have Yahu-ah.  But that is ONLY a guess.   I use "Adonai" or "Ha Shem" (the NAME).
« Last Edit: Mon May 24, 2021 - 07:28:10 by DaveW »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13964
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #7 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 07:46:53 »
I think it is interesting that the LXX translates the Hebrew "YHVH" into the Greek "kurios", which we read as Lord.  That is consistent throughout.  Thus we have Gen 2:4  These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.   Here LORD is from the Hebrew "YHVH".  That is what Paul blurted out when Jesus confronted him on the way to Damascus. i.e., Act 9:5  And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" and Jesus acknowledged that He was Kurios, Lord, i.e., YHVH.
« Last Edit: Mon May 24, 2021 - 07:54:58 by 4WD »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #8 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 07:55:49 »
I think it is interesting that the LXX translates the Hebrew "YHVH" into the Greek "kurios" which which we read as Lord.  That is consistent throughout.  Thus we have Gen 2:4  These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.   Here LORD is from the Hebrew "YHVH".  That is what Paul blurted out when Jesus confronted him on the way to Damascus. i.e., Act 9:5  And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" and Jesus acknowledged that He was Kurios, Lord, i.e., YHVH.
Indeed.  The LXX in that regard is entirely consistent with the use of Adonai being substituted for YHVH.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #8 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 07:55:49 »

Offline TrevorL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #9 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 08:15:44 »
Greetings again RB, DaveW and 4WD,
Quote from: RB
WHAT a WONDERFUL testimony from king David, who knew God's name to be not Yahweh, but JEHOVAH.
Please use some reference material to determine the fact that the KJV is not an inspired translation, possibly Young’s or Strong’s Concordance. Strong’s at least is available online if you do not have a print copy. The KJV is very inconsistent in their translation of the Hebrew YHWH.

Quote from: DaveW
Actually, yud hay vav hay is not just past future or present tense. It is all 3 and at the same time none of them.
I am not going to quote various scholars against your scholars, or your own view of this. I accept the future tense – refer the Opening Post and Replies #1 and #3.
Quote from: DaveW
When the Masorites (circa 1000 ad) published their official vowel pointed text of the Hebrew scriptures, to remind people to say Adonai instead of trying to pronounce yud hay vav hay, the vowel points of Adonai were added to the letters.
Yes, that is true in the majority of the occurrences of YHWH, but a simple reference to Strong’s shows that the vowels of Elohim were added in some instances.
Despite the inconsistency of the KJV, the translators recognised these two occurrences or variations of YHWH in the Masoretic text and in most cases they translated the Adonai version as LORD and the Elohim version as GOD. An example of this is in the following passage, and if you and RB can read Hebrew and vowel markings you can confirm this by checking the Hebrew text.

Isaiah 50:4–10 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up. 10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.
Quote from: DaveW
“Yahweh” - That is a product of a made-up version of Hebrew pronunciation which never existed outside of Christian seminaries.
I have already stated in Reply #3 “I am not claiming to know how it would have been pronounced, and possibly the spelling may only be approximate.”

Quote from: 4WD
Act 9:5 And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" and Jesus acknowledged that He was Kurios, Lord, i.e., YHVH..
No, Paul, would not have addressed Jesus as YHWH on this occasion. Paul was addressing Jesus as Lord. The distinction between Jesus’ position as Lord and YHWH is clearly seen in Psalm 110:1, where David addresses Jesus as “my Lord” and God the Father as “YHWH”.

Kind regards Trevor

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13964
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #10 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 10:20:03 »
No, Paul, would not have addressed Jesus as YHWH on this occasion. Paul was addressing Jesus as Lord. The distinction between Jesus’ position as Lord and YHWH is clearly seen in Psalm 110:1, where David addresses Jesus as “my Lord” and God the Father as “YHWH”.
Ridiculous. Paul didn't even acknowledge that Jesus was anything but a blasphemer who had been crucified.  He wasn't addressing Jesus.  He was addressing God.  That is the only one that he would have even thought was calling out to him.  He was addressing Lord God. It was only after that event and more that he believed who Jesus really was.  It was Jesus who affirmed that He was Lord, that He was God.

« Last Edit: Mon May 24, 2021 - 11:02:53 by 4WD »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13964
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #11 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 10:30:05 »
Indeed.  The LXX in that regard is entirely consistent with the use of Adonai being substituted for YHVH.
Where in Scripture do you find the Hebrew word "Adonai"?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14850
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #12 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 10:51:11 »
So far, Yahweh is never mentioned.
Your hatred of original languages is blinding you.

Every time the word LORD (in caps) appears in English, in Hebrew it's YHWH, which is usually pronounced as Yahweh, or Yehovah.  It would seem you are just quibbling over what language is to be preferred.

Jarrod

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #13 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 11:02:55 »
Where in Scripture do you find the Hebrew word "Adonai"?

Strong's Number H136 matches the Hebrew אֲדֹנָי ('ăḏōnāy),
which occurs 436 times in 421 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV
Page 1 / 9 (Gen 15:2–Psa 40:17)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H136&t=KJV

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14850
  • Manna: 372
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #14 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 11:14:52 »
I would submit that both are equally wrong for different reasons.

"Jehovah" 
Interesting story on how that came to be.  Jews have not even attempted to pronounce that Name since the Temple was destroyed in 70 ad; and before then only the High Priest would say it on Yom Kippur.  So the tradition arose during the first century bc that "Adonai" or My Lord was said instead.  When the Masorites (circa 1000 ad) published their official vowel pointed text of the Hebrew scriptures, to remind people to say Adonai instead of trying to pronounce yud hay vav hay, the vowel points of Adonai were added to the letters.  Also, before the year 1000, there was no "J" sound in any language anywhere on the planet.  It was invented by the Arabs and slowly worked its way thru the various languages and arrived in english only in the 1600s.  In the 1611 KJV, there were no Js anywhere.  Jehovah was spelled Iehovah.  Jesus was spelled Ieusus.  Etc.  When the KJV translators came to the tetragramaton, they mistook the Adonai vowel points as being the REAL vowels of The NAME.   Hence Iehovah, which in later printings became Jehovah.

"Yahweh"
That is a product of a made-up version of Hebrew pronunciation called "academic" which never existed outside of Christian seminaries.  It substitutes too many Greek forms.
+1

In Hebrew there NEVER was a TH- sound.
This is wrong.  Virtually all Hebrew consonants can be aspirated, including Tav.  That isn't just modern Hebrew, that works in ancient Hebrew as well (although without diacritical marks we cannot see the difference in pronunciation in ancient writings).

There never was a W sound.
Debatable.  Hebrew Vav can make the same sound as a Greek Omega.  (Indeed, the entire Greek alphabet seems to have been borrowed from the Phoenicians.)  That is admittedly more of a hard O sound (e.g. hOle) than a W, but there is some overlap in the sounds.

So even your YHWH is wrong.  It should be YHVH.  But since the Name has not actually been pronounced at all in 2000 years, and not in public bible readings in probably another 500 before that, no one REALLY knows.  Everything is a guess. 

If I had to guess, I would go with something close to the next closest name in scripture - Judah which is spelled yud hay vav dalet hay. (adds a D sound) That is pronounced Yahudah. Minus the D sound you have Yahu-ah.  But that is ONLY a guess.   I use "Adonai" or "Ha Shem" (the NAME).
That's a pretty good guess; probably the most defensible one.

My guess would be yeh-HAI-ah.  Here's my reasoning:

The root is HYH (be/was/is) and the Y (yowd) is prefixed indicating action.  The convention in ancient Hebrew seems to be that when there is an internal Y in a word, and Y is also prefixed, the second Y becomes a V (vav).  It isn't entirely clear that the letter changed in pronunciation, though.  I think the V may have been pronounced as Y.

Jarrod

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13964
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #15 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 13:21:12 »
Strong's Number H136 matches the Hebrew אֲדֹנָי ('ăḏōnāy),
which occurs 436 times in 421 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV
Page 1 / 9 (Gen 15:2–Psa 40:17)

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H136&t=KJV

Thank you.  I appreciate that.  In all of my studies, I had not recognized that distinction.  Or if I had, I had forgotten it.  That is probably more likely.

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11003
  • Manna: 424
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #16 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 14:55:58 »
Your hatred of original languages is blinding you.

Every time the word LORD (in caps) appears in English, in Hebrew it's YHWH, which is usually pronounced as Yahweh, or Yehovah.  It would seem you are just quibbling over what language is to be preferred.

Jarrod
Hatred? No hatred of any language, only there is no such thing as the original letters, books, etc. of the bible~ they have never existed from the time they were first written, ONLY they were preserved BY GOD the very ones he purposed to be part of the word of God as we know it today. How that came about NO MAN KNOWS we just accept it BY FAITH. 

NO KNOWLEDGE of any language, other than our own for anyone to understand the word of God in their own language. Understanding of biblical truth is a gift freely given to those whom God ordained to believe. Enough said on this.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Today at 10:51:11
Your hatred of original languages is blinding you
We shall see and others can judge for themself. I'll post another post in the morning (the Lord willing) while you are sound asleep. Sweet dreams Mr. Jarrod~ RB
« Last Edit: Mon May 24, 2021 - 14:58:28 by RB »

Offline TrevorL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #17 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 17:37:58 »
Greetings again 4WD,
Quote from: 4WD
Ridiculous. Paul didn't even acknowledge that Jesus was anything but a blasphemer who had been crucified.  He wasn't addressing Jesus.  He was addressing God.  That is the only one that he would have even thought was calling out to him.  He was addressing Lord God. It was only after that event and more that he believed who Jesus really was.  It was Jesus who affirmed that He was Lord, that He was God.
If he thought that he was speaking to God the Father, Yahweh, he would not have said “Who art thou, Lord?” He then addresses Jesus as Lord, not as Yahweh. To claim that Paul was immediately a Trinitarian as a result of this is , using your word, ridiculous.
Acts 9:3-6 (KJV): 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13964
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #18 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 18:05:47 »
Greetings again 4WD,If he thought that he was speaking to God the Father, Yahweh, he would not have said “Who art thou, Lord?” He then addresses Jesus as Lord, not as Yahweh. To claim that Paul was immediately a Trinitarian as a result of this is , using your word, ridiculous.
Acts 9:3-6 (KJV): 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Kind regards
Trevor
I didn't claim that Paul was a Trinitarian.  But in Paul's use of the word Lord [Greek - Kurios] there could have been none other than (1) the LORD GOD or (2) some divinity (?) he knew nothing about.  He certainly wasn't directing the question at someone he thought was Jesus who had been crucified and the source of all his enmity and the reason that he was going about persecuting the followers of Jesus.

Offline TrevorL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #19 on: Mon May 24, 2021 - 23:37:36 »
Greetings again 4WD,
Quote from: 4WD
I didn't claim that Paul was a Trinitarian.  But in Paul's use of the word Lord [Greek - Kurios] there could have been none other than (1) the LORD GOD or (2) some divinity (?) he knew nothing about.  He certainly wasn't directing the question at someone he thought was Jesus who had been crucified and the source of all his enmity and the reason that he was going about persecuting the followers of Jesus.
It certainly does not prove that Jesus is God. Acts 2:29-36 expounds in what sense Jesus is "Lord" and this is part of Peter's expositions of Psalm 110:1 which clearly distinguishes between the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and David's Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11003
  • Manna: 424
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #20 on: Tue May 25, 2021 - 04:29:25 »
Greetings again 4WD, It certainly does not prove that Jesus is God. Acts 2:29-36 expounds in what sense Jesus is "Lord" and this is part of Peter's expositions of Psalm 110:1 which clearly distinguishes between the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and David's Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.[/size]
I thought you did not desire to discuss this subject within this thread, if you do then I want in. Jesus WAS GOD and EQUAL TO HIM~yet, he also was MAN...... 100% man and as such subjected to God his Father who is a Spirit that inhabits eternity! You are not seeing the TWO COMPLEX natures of Jesus Christ and dividing them accordingly! By not properly dividing scriptures, you end up denying the Deity of the Son of God, and that's dangerously borderline of blasphemy and proving that you have not the doctrine of Christ correct as of yet.
Quote
2nd John vss 7-11~"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."
Jesus Christ is both the Son of God, and the Everlasting Father of all things.
Quote from: The prophet Isaiah
Isaiah 9:6,7~"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
So, sir, do you believe that Jesus Christ is the MIGHTY GOD? A yes to no would be appreciated. It is not that difficult of a question and Isaiah the prophet has spoken to tell us that Jesus was the MIGHTY GOD and also as a man subject to the LORD GOD of Israel, Mary did not give birth to IMMANUEL as many erroneously teach~she gave birth to the HIGHEST'S Son, Jesus as he was named because he was to SAVED his people from their sins which is truly part of this thread and the MAIN REASON he was called JESUS as we shall soon see. Jesus the Greek name for the Hebrew name JOSHUA, taken not from Yahweh but of Jehovah. Later......RB
« Last Edit: Tue May 25, 2021 - 04:32:06 by RB »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #21 on: Tue May 25, 2021 - 05:38:30 »
Thank you.  I appreciate that.  In all of my studies, I had not recognized that distinction.  Or if I had, I had forgotten it.  That is probably more likely.
You are most welcome! ::smile::

Offline TrevorL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #22 on: Tue May 25, 2021 - 05:42:14 »
Greetings again RB,
Quote from: RB
I thought you did not desire to discuss this subject within this thread, if you do then I want in.
What I wanted to do was limit my involvement due to time constraints and other interests on what I consider side issues to the subject and theme of the Yahweh Name. I may yet add some additional thoughts on this theme. I hope you have had time to consider what was said about the YHWH Name in contrast to your insistence on the use of Jehovah. By your silence possibly you have not looked up Strong’s as a starter. For these reasons I will only answer a few minor things.
Quote from: RB
2nd John vss 7-11~"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
But you claim he came as both Deity and flesh.

Quote from: RB
Jesus Christ is both the Son of God, and the Everlasting Father of all things.
This is a strange statement and one reason I am reticent to have a serious discussion with you. Not many of your Trinitarian friends will agree with you – ask them. The rest of your post is similar.

Kind regards Trevor
« Last Edit: Tue May 25, 2021 - 06:08:07 by TrevorL »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #23 on: Tue May 25, 2021 - 05:43:57 »
NO KNOWLEDGE of any language, other than our own for anyone to understand the word of God in their own language. Understanding of biblical truth is a gift freely given to those whom God ordained to believe.
At a basic level, that is true.  But there is a reason that "Teachers" is listed among the 5 ministerial gifts to the Body as listed in Ephesians 4:

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Those teachers should be well versed in the original languages and cultures.  Without that we are ill-equipped to do the work we are called to.

Offline fish153

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5746
  • Manna: 461
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #24 on: Tue May 25, 2021 - 13:58:32 »
"Unless you believe that I AM you shall die in your sins". We must acknowledge Jesus is God in the flesh. "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us". If you do not acknowledge that God came in the flesh you will die in your sins.

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11003
  • Manna: 424
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #25 on: Tue May 25, 2021 - 14:57:43 »
This is a strange statement and one reason I am reticent to have a serious discussion with you. Not many of your Trinitarian friends will agree with you – ask them. The rest of your post is similar.
Really? ALL I did was to quote verbatim from the Isaiah and added not one word to what he said, actually, I did not say ALL that he said concerning Jesus Christ who was the child that was born around two thousand years ago to Mary a woman who never knew an up until she gave birth to God's only begotten Son. Sir, you obviously do not understand by the very FACT Jesus was God's Son conceived by the Holy Ghost, makes him EQUAL to God~this is a great mystery, yet we MUST believe the testimony of the word of God~you are rejecting a truth that even the unconverted Jews understood IF he was indeed the Son of God as he confessed he was...in the matter in which he was so.
Quote from: Jesus and the Jews
John 10:30-33~"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
They were ONE in every biblical sense as it relates to the Godhead's Deity.

Btw, I'm not your typical Trinitarian~I hold to the incarnate Sonship, not to the eternal Sonship doctrine, a doctrine that cannot be reconciled to the scriptures, or even to the mind of any reasonable person. I believe in ONE GOD manifested in three " only " according to their respective work in the redemption of the elect. I'm in a very small company of believers. I pray to God, through Jesus Christ with the Spirit helping my infirmities. I very seldom pray to Jesus, even though it would be acceptable, but it feels very strange to do so.  It all becomes simple when we speak according to the word of God. Enough on this, I'll take this to another thread just for you
« Last Edit: Tue May 25, 2021 - 15:03:28 by RB »

Offline TrevorL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #26 on: Wed May 26, 2021 - 01:46:06 »
Greetings again fish153 and RB,
Quote from: fish123
"Unless you believe that I AM you shall die in your sins". We must acknowledge Jesus is God in the flesh.
I find what you have stated objectionable for a number of reasons. The full quote is the following and note the same expression occurs in verse 28:

John 8:24–28 (KJV): 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
You isolated part of verse 24 without referencing the whole verse and the fact that the same expression is used in verse 28.
Jesus is not claiming to be Deity in verse 28 as the underlined portion clearly reveals.
You either quoted from a different translation to the KJV or you deliberately altered the KJV translation “I am he”.
By using “I am” instead of “I am he” you are suggesting that Jesus is quoting or alluding to Exodus 3:14 (KJV) I AM.
You are thus disagreeing with what I have stated in the first two posts that Exodus 3:14 should be translated as “I will be”.
Quote from: RB
Really? ALL I did was to quote verbatim from the Isaiah
Most Trinitarians believe that Jesus is not God the Father. You may be the exception. I believe that Jesus is the spiritual father of the age to come.
Quote from: RB
Sir, you obviously do not understand by the very FACT Jesus was God's Son conceived by the Holy Ghost, makes him EQUAL to God~this is a great mystery
Jesus was born a human, the Son of God. He was not born as a God or a God/man, no matter how much you use the term “mystery”.

Quote from: RB
John 10:30-33~"I and my Father are one. They were ONE in every biblical sense as it relates to the Godhead's Deity. 
Please read and consider all of John 10:30-36 where Jesus discusses the Judges who were called “Gods” or “Elohim” and Jesus statement in John 10:36 where he claims to be the Son of God, not God. To understand the expression “one” compare the same language applied to the Apostles and faithful in John 17.
Kind regards Trevor

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11003
  • Manna: 424
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #27 on: Wed May 26, 2021 - 05:13:41 »
Most Trinitarians believe that Jesus is not God the Father. You may be the exception. I believe that Jesus is the spiritual father of the age to come.[/font][/size]
Greetings Trevor~I never said that Jesus was God the Father, for that's impossible~100% man which Jesus was shown us that God who is a Spirit....always has been and always will be, is the Father of Jesus of Nazareth. That being said, by the very fact that Jesus was begotten NOT through Adam's posterity, but the HIGHEST was is Father conceive by him, makes him FULL DEITY as well as full humanity being made in the likeness of sinful flesh. Jesus was God, but God was not the MAN Jesus of Nazareth! This is the mystery of godliness just as Paul said:
Quote from: The apostle Paul
1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Seen of angels~could only mean seen of them for the FIRST TIME EVER in the person of His Son JESUS CHRIST~who was the EXPRESS IMAGE of God, in righteousness, knowledge, and wisdom and TRUE HOLINESS. When folks saw Jesus, they saw God in human flesh~when John laid his head upon his beast, he was laying his head upon the Everlasting father of ALL THINGS. Well, let us let John tell us in his own words:
Quote from: The apostle John
1st John 1:1-3~"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
'Was from the beginning~Jesus being ONE with his Father in their ETERNAL DEITY/NATURE/GLORY, was manifested in due time in the person of Jesus of Nazareth when the Word which was God from the beginning (or, before all things) joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and preached unto both Jews and Gentiles and was believed on in the world, and then received up into glory to be with his Father from the bosom from whence he came.
Quote from:  TrevorL on: Today at 01:46:06
Jesus was born a human, the Son of God. He was not born as a God or a God/man, no matter how much you use the term “mystery”.
Agreed, Jesus was 100% human.

Jesus of Nazareth is the complex Person of God and man~He possesses both complete natures. This point is very important to properly understand God’s record of His Son Jesus Christ. The attributes of one nature are often ascribed to a name derived from the other nature. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, so His Person involves divine and human characteristics. Jesus Christ fully experienced all the aspects of human growth, weakness, and temptation. Jesus Christ, referred to as God, a Spirit, purchased the church with His BLOOD (Acts 20:28). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, DIED (Galatians 2:20). But only His humanity died (Ist Tim 1:17; 6:16). Jesus, the Son of man, was OMNIPRESENT (John 3:13). Only His Deity could be so (Jeremiah 23:24). Jesus, the Son of man, WAS WITH GOD (John 6:62). Only His divinity could be so (John 1:1). Jesus, the Son, is SUBJECT TO GOD (Ist Corinthians 1:28). Only His humanity will be subject to God. Jesus, the Son, had a MOTHER NAMED MARY (Matthew 1:21). Mary is not the mother of God! Jesus claimed to be BEFORE ABRAHAM (John 8:58). Only His Deity was eternal (Micah 5:2). Jesus grew in WISDOM AND STATURE (Luke 2:52). Only His humanity was ignorant (Colossians 2:3). Jesus slept (Mark 4:38), but only in His humanity; for His Deity could not sleep (Psalm 121:4). Jesus thirsted, ate, and did all the things human nature does, but which Deity cannot do, or need to do.

If you reject these truths, you reject the record God has given of his Son, a very dangerous place to put yourself into.
Quote from:  TrevorL on: Today at 01:46:06
Please read and consider all of John 10:30-36 where Jesus discusses the Judges who were called “Gods” or “Elohim” and Jesus statement in John 10:36 where he claims to be the Son of God, not God.
Okay, let us do so:
Quote
John 10:30-36~"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
These scriptures teach us~ God the Father and Jesus Christ were one in nature, attributes, operations, purpose, unity, etc. Glory! The preceding context indicates a unity and oneness in the plan and power of redemption (10:28-29). By being one in nature and attributes, Jesus declared Himself to be God like the Father, and the monotheistic Jews understood Him in exactly that sense (John 10:31,33), which Jesus did not correct or alter, but instead pursued their choice of terminology out of their own Law (John 10:34-36).

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him~Blasphemy is a terrible crime, and the Jews rabidly defended God’s glory … only in some respects! Though none of the accusations stuck against Jesus, they chose Barabbas to be freed instead. Consider their rules of oaths, which valued the temple’s gold above the temple (Matthew 23:16-17). Religionists are the greatest enemies of Shepherd and sheep (Isaiah 66:5; John 15:20; 16:2; Revelation 17:1-6).

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?~How could the Jews consider stoning a prophet with such miracles, yea, greater than any prophet! Jesus confronted them about the stupidity of stoning Him in light of prodigious miracles from God. In this chapter, Jesus continues to bring up Jehovah as His Father, further provoking them to wrath, not unlike His hard sayings about bread from heaven and eating and drinking Him in John 6.

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.~The Jews recognized (and did not recognize) His argument’s force, so they trumped up blasphemy. There are not two charges or accusations here, but rather one of blasphemy and the details of it. How did Jesus make Himself God? By declaring a unity of nature (10:30), and by declaring Himself the Son of God (9:35-38 cp Isaiah 9:6 cp Isaiah 7:14). He did not declare His eternal, divine sonship!

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?~While with the blind man, Jesus had declared in their hearing that He was the Son of God (9:35-38). It is this claim, a basic axiom of our faith, which Jesus will defend by this line of reasoning (10:36). He appealed to Psalm 82:6, where the Psalmist penned these words about Israel’s civil rulers, though there are other places as well where God gave the name of gods to rulers (Psalms 82:1; 138:1; Exodus 22:28). When dealing with persons that profess faith in scripture, use those scriptures against their errors.

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;~Those Jehovah called gods in Psalm 82:6 received Moses’ Law for their official magisterial conduct. The Law identified, ordained, and charged Israel’s magistrates with their duties and penalties. They received the Law of God from another, therefore they were not truly legislators themselves. They needed the scripture as much as the populace to know God’s will for their own lives. Receiving God’s word from another is very inferior to Christ~ Legislator, Master, and Judge! John the Baptist, the greatest man born of women, received the word of God from God (Luke 3:2). The scripture cannot be broken, in that a word found there is the right word and may be argued from. If the Bible calls magistrates gods, then that exact term is absolutely right and justified for them. If it is rightly used for those in the low office of magistrate, then certainly so for greater offices. It cannot be blasphemy for the Messiah to use the terminology due to His far superior office! We justly use this verse two ways to support our trust in the KJV as inspired and preserved scripture. Jesus declared and showed the nature of scripture ~it is inspired at the word level and may be argued from the word level for doctrine, thus condemning paraphrases and other word changes, as these further examples show. If we can show internal contradictions in a “Bible,” then it is not scripture, for scripture cannot be broken at even the word level. What about contradictions in the KJV?

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?~ If you justify the title gods for mere civil magistrates, why do you fault me with a superior office? The word of God did not come to Jesus as to gods and John (10:34-35), He was the Word of God! Almighty God, the LORD Jehovah, set Jesus of Nazareth apart for an office far greater ~Messiah! He was sent into the world: He was not in the world as a mere man with scripture given to Him. What was so wrong with His title Son of God, since the Jews allowed mere rules a similar name?

Thus, your own argument is proven to be invalid as a proof text for your erroneous doctrine.

A little long yet, you ask for us to consider John 10:30-36 and we did, and it only shows your error to be greater, not less.
« Last Edit: Wed May 26, 2021 - 06:40:31 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13964
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #28 on: Wed May 26, 2021 - 05:35:50 »
I believe that Jesus is the spiritual father of the age to come.
What does that even mean? Where in the Bible do you read anything about a "spiritual father".

Quote from: TrevorL
Jesus was born a human, the Son of God.
Again, what does that mean.  In what sense are you calling Jesus the Son of God.

Quote from: TrevorL
He was not born as a God or a God/man, no matter how much you use the term “mystery”.
He was God born into the body of a man.  That is the clear message of John, Chapter one;  1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..... 14  And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us

Thus, before the creation of this world, there was God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit.  That continued until the Son was born to Mary.  At that time the Word became flesh; His name was Jesus.  During His time on earth, there was God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.  Some believe that still holds to this day. I do not.  I believe, but I can't prove, that upon His ascension, He ceased to be a human being returning again to God the Word as He was before becoming flesh.

Offline TrevorL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #29 on: Wed May 26, 2021 - 08:34:29 »
Greetings again RB and 4WD,
Quote from: RB
If you reject these truths, you reject the record God has given of his Son, a very dangerous place to put yourself into.
Yes, I reject most of what you have stated.
Quote from: 4WD
What does that even mean? Where in the Bible do you read anything about a "spiritual father".
Isaiah 8:18, Hebrews 2:13.
Quote from: 4WD
In what sense are you calling Jesus the Son of God.
God was his father and Mary his mother Luke 1:34-35.
Quote from: 4WD
I believe, but I can't prove, that upon His ascension, He ceased to be a human being returning again to God the Word as He was before becoming flesh.
I believe he is still a man Acts 17:31.

Kind regards
Trevor

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13964
  • Manna: 333
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #30 on: Wed May 26, 2021 - 09:06:11 »
Isaiah 8:18, Hebrews 2:13.
Neither of those say anything about a "spiritual father".
Quote
God was his father 
And just how did that happen? 
Quote
I believe he is still a man Acts 17:31.
You are not alone in that.  But that does not include me.

Offline fish153

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5746
  • Manna: 461
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #31 on: Wed May 26, 2021 - 09:27:34 »
Trevori--

In the King James John 8:24 has the word "he" in italics (check it out). This means the word was ADDED by the translators. All ITALICS are ADDED words.

The correct translation is: "If you do not believe that I AM you will die in your sins" (John 8:24)

Also, note several verses later Jesus says "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born I AM" (John 8:58). And there is no "he" in italics. The meaning is CLEAR. Jesus is saying He IS God. That is why the Jews want to stone him to death!

Read Mark 14:62 also "I AM, and you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God's right hand, and coming on the clouds of Heaven".  This lead the Pharisees to tear their clothes and scream "blasphemy!!" And declare Jesus guilty, because Jesus was saying He was God!

"As soon as he told them I AM he (he in italics), they went backward, and fell to the ground" (John 18:8)
Why would they fall to the ground?  Because Jesus said "I AM".

Think Trevori--- "The Son is the radiance of God's glory, and the EXACT REPRESENTATION of His being" (Heb. 1:3).

I have to ask you: how can a CREATED FINITE BEING be the "EXACT REPRESENTATION" of an ETERNAL INFINITE BEING??  The answer is that is IMPOSSIBLE. Jesus MUST be God in order for Him to be an EXACT REPRESENTATION of the Father!!

If we do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh we will die in our sins. This is very serious. Consider it Trevori.
« Last Edit: Wed May 26, 2021 - 09:31:55 by fish153 »

Offline RB

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11003
  • Manna: 424
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #32 on: Wed May 26, 2021 - 15:23:58 »
Greetings again RB Yes, I reject most of what you have stated.   
Trevor, I have not even started proving the truth to you, even in one of the above quotes, I can prove that Jesus was JEHOVAH GOD of the OT! Do you believe I can with just one verse of many hundreds I can give? Consider: 
Quote
John 10:34~"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"
Did you ever consider these words and if you did, then you should see CLEARLY that Jesus is God! Jesus the Word of God made flesh~in others words...HE IS GOD. Jesus Christ is the ONLY God you, I, and anyone else will ever see, including angles! Selah.
Quote from: TrevorL on: Today at 08:34:29
I believe he is still a man Acts 17:31.
I believe BOTH! Why, because of the word of God's testimony to this truth. I would be damned if I did not believe Jesus was God manifested in human flesh.
« Last Edit: Wed May 26, 2021 - 15:27:28 by RB »

Offline fish153

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5746
  • Manna: 461
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #33 on: Wed May 26, 2021 - 16:24:34 »
Trevori---
One more thing. I noticed this just recently: "For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

Notice "Christ Jesus" instead of "Jesus Christ"?  Why? Because the verse puts God first. "Between God and man..the man Christ Jesus".

Jesus is very God of God, and He is very man of man. He is the God-man. A PERFECT MEDIATOR. Don't you see and understand that? It is VERY clear.

Offline TrevorL

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Manna: 2
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Yahweh Name
« Reply #34 on: Wed May 26, 2021 - 17:13:42 »
Greetings again 4WD, fish123 and RB,
Quote from: 4WD
Neither of those say anything about a "spiritual father".
Jesus is not our physical father, but we are his children by faith.
Quote from: 4WD
And just how did that happen?
By means of God the Father's power, the Holy Spirit Luke 1:34-35. There is no hint that God the Son was shrunk and transferred into the womb of Mary.
Quote from: fish123
In the King James John 8:24 has the word "he" in italics (check it out). This means the word was ADDED by the translators. All ITALICS are ADDED words. The correct translation is: "If you do not believe that I AM you will die in your sins" (John 8:24) Also, note several verses later Jesus says "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born I AM" (John 8:58). And there is no "he" in italics. The meaning is CLEAR. Jesus is saying He IS God. That is why the Jews want to stone him to death!
No, the "he" is added to make proper sense of the words in English. The blind man is not claiming to be God when he uses the same expression John 9:9. Also the basis of your claim is incorrect as the true translation of Exodus 3:14 is "I will be", refer the first two posts.
Quote from: RB
Trevor, I have not even started proving the truth to you, even in one of the above quotes, I can prove that Jesus was JEHOVAH GOD of the OT!
Jehovah is an erroneous representation of the YHWH Name. You did not consult Strong's as I asked.
Quote from: RB
Do you believe I can with just one verse of many hundreds I can give? Consider: John 10:34~"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" Did you ever consider these words and if you did, then you should see CLEARLY that Jesus is God! Jesus the Word of God made flesh~in others words...HE IS GOD.
This is clear proof that you do not know what you are talking about as your reasoning is deficient of common sense. He is quoting a passage and not claiming that he is the person speaking in Psalm 82:6.

Kind regards
Trevor