Author Topic: To whom does God give His forgiveness?  (Read 374 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline soterion

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5178
  • Manna: 243
  • Gender: Male
To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« on: Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 14:35:19 »
In a recent discussion with a coworker, it was suggested that God can forgive angels and other non-bodied entities.

I challenged with Hebrews 2:16 which tells us that Christ's becoming flesh and dying benefitted those in the flesh only. Of course, the passage does not say that God cannot forgive non-flesh beings apart from the sacrifice of Christ. I also brought up Hebrews 9:22 which tells us that there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood.

I just thought it would be an interesting, and no doubt short, discussion. Can God extend His forgiveness to angelic beings and such, although the blood of Christ has no application to them?

Christian Forums and Message Board

To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« on: Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 14:35:19 »

Offline seekingHiswisdom

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • Manna: 17
  • Gender: Female
  • I am Rella. Still 6 & counting.
Re: To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 18:26:19 »
Quote
        Can God extend His forgiveness to angelic beings and such, although the blood of Christ has no application to them?     

I would think yes, although my reasons will fall short of biblical backing them up other then to quote John 1.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

This would include angels.

But angels were created, as far as I know, far differently then man. For one thing they do not procreate, or if they do I have neer read that in the bible. They do not marry as I have not read that either.

They were created into a different system then man was. Had a different purpose. And most likely knew the Word (Jesus) in a diffeent way then we do.

Yes, they could sin and need forgiveness. They were given freewill. Lucifer was prime example of this. But it seems God would have had that system in place for them without the need of Jesus' blood. But they also were/are spirit beings and not flesh and blood, therefore they will not "die" like man will.

Enter mankind.

The creation that God made that needs Jesus' shed blood.

Before Jesus walked the earth however, do you think that all were lost? I don't think so. Pre- Jesus there was again another system.

Man, of course , failed in this miserably... so Jesus came to be our sacrificial lamb.




Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

  • Down with pants! Up with kilts!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12652
  • Manna: 357
  • Gender: Male
Re: To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 20:48:25 »
Forgiveness is not something that is given.  The idea is that you DON'T give.  You don't give blame, you don't assign guilt, you don't impute sin.  Instead you TAKE the consequences upon yourself.

Forgiveness is about taking, not giving.

As for the former angels, their guilt has already been assigned, their sin imputed, and their judgment pronounced and executed.  I don't see a scenario where God does take-backs there.

Jarrod

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jan 09, 2020 - 20:48:25 »

Offline johntwayne

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5340
  • Manna: 141
  • Gender: Male
Re: To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jan 10, 2020 - 10:51:50 »
(2Pe 2:4)  For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jan 10, 2020 - 10:51:50 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline soterion

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5178
  • Manna: 243
  • Gender: Male
Re: To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 08:46:45 »
seekingHiswisdom, I'm not sure what John 1 says about the availability of forgiveness for angelic beings. Sure, they were created by God but that, in and of itself, does not mean they are subject to His mercy and grace the same way mankind is. Hebrews 9:22 still tells us that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

WS, what do you mean by "former angels?" I agree that angels are not forgiven.

jtw, 2 Peter 2:4 is a good passage on this.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 08:46:45 »



Offline seekingHiswisdom

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 755
  • Manna: 17
  • Gender: Female
  • I am Rella. Still 6 & counting.
Re: To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 14:08:59 »
seekingHiswisdom, I'm not sure what John 1 says about the availability of forgiveness for angelic beings. Sure, they were created by God but that, in and of itself, does not mean they are subject to His mercy and grace the same way mankind is. Hebrews 9:22 still tells us that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.

WS, what do you mean by "former angels?" I agree that angels are not forgiven.

jtw, 2 Peter 2:4 is a good passage on this.

We are talking about apples and ranges here. We are not angels and angels were/are never human beings.

Obviously they are not subject to the same mercy and grace as mankind has been offered.

The first fact is that they were created before mankind. Is there any propagation among them? We simply cannot know.
Other then the scant mention of Sons of God and Daughters of man in Gen 1-5.

They seemingly did when they commingled with mankind ( women) but in their heavenly spiritual selves... ???? After all, we are told that when/if we make it there there will be no marrying or giving in marriage so no propagation for us. We simply have no way to know about them.

I have always believed the Sons of God were angels. I always will.

Job tells us


Job 1:6 King James Version (KJV)

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Job 38:4-7 King James Version (KJV)

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

So we had these angels joining themselves with mortal women.

But they were still angels.

And this was long before mankind knew of or heard of Jesus. But the angels had for if they presented themselves before "the Lord" and they shouted for joy when "  laid the foundations of the earth" for we know that

John 1:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word is Jesus!

So , as He was in the beginning the angels in heaven knew Him. And without taking this into a new direction of Jesus being God and the trinity... for there are those here who do not believe or understand that just know that the angels had to know him.

So what happened when they "sinned" or "disobeyed"?

You say they needed Jesus' shed blood for forgivness... or they were not forgiven.

God sent Lucifer and 1/3 of the angel followers out of heaven and will eventually will have a horrible eternity. ::shrug:: ( My jury is still out on that)

So we know God did punish, severely. But I do not remember reading of other angels being sent out or punished.

I have read that angels are no capable of sinning because they have no freewill. I disagree because Satan did. 1/3 of the angels did.
So if they had freewill and sinned, the others have the ability.

Do they ever? As a mortal I cannot believe they never did but perhaps not  ::shrug::

But if they ever did... would God have punished those that asked for forgiveness before Jesus shed his blood? From eternity past to 2000 years ago is a long time for no redemption... unless of course they never sinned, other then Lucifer and the 1/3.

Quote
      Hebrews 9:22 still tells us that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.       

The bible was written for us. It is our handbook, textbook and legal contract between God and us... ( believers).

Any reference to angelic beings are more of a notation then anything for us.

We were given Jesus, after the mess man made from Adam up until 2000 years ago. Which BTW.... do you believe every single person from Adam until Jesus walked this earth, and was crucified... who had no chance to believe in him and his shed blood... totally
have missed the mark and not found favor in the eyes of God for an eternity that does not involve a fiery end or just ceasing to exist.?

The construction of the bible. The inspiration given to the authors. The actual selection of the books that were incorporated were for you and me and those who want to be part of God's family.

It has NOTHING to do with angelic beings, who for all you know may have their own written instructions from God....?

It has nothing to do with the creation of the heavens and earth and when that actually took place other then a notation that the Word (Jesus) did it.... because it has nothing o do with our guidelines and rules.


The Holy Bible is the most important book ever written, yet is the one that so many want to twist into meanings to approve of how they live rather than acceptance of original intent.

The forgiveness God gives by way of Jesus' shed blood is for us.

Anything else God does is by His choice ::tippinghat::






Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: To whom does God give His forgiveness?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 14:08:59 »