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Offline Booty

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The Christian and his Fruit
« on: Sat Oct 12, 2002 - 11:20:56 »
Dan,

Forgive me, but I am just a dumb bog Irish tinker, not one given to deep insights. Thus I have found that I don't need to dissect the Holy Spirit nor the scripture to know well His work in my miserable life. It is in my blood to rely on a more childlike faith in my Lord, the profundities are wasted on one like me.

The Holy Spirit is real to me, quite real. I find Him a great comfort and a trustworthy mate. He is like unto a rod & staff that comforts me. A special presence that, when I die to my stubborn pride and allow Him to, will take over my facilities and overcoming my fears and shyness allowing my voice to carry a gospel message. The fruit of this message, those who turn their lives over to Him, is His fruit and not mine to be sure.

english eludes my tongue at times, Spanish twists it in knots and my Irish is like cats wailing it is. Even the cant is nothing that the folk would ever recognize. So Greek will forever remain Greek to me. Subtle nuances in the original remain beyond my ken, so I am forced to simply believing and allow Him to guide me. This He does so aptly be knowing when to burden my heart and soul. The Holy Spirit dwelling within me does place this burden on me gently and lovingly and I as always will fight it to the last, but when I finally do listen I find myself the better for it. Sure but wouldn't I be better to understand the Greek, but then I do believe I can trust Him.

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« on: Sat Oct 12, 2002 - 11:20:56 »

Offline Booty

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« Reply #1 on: Sat Oct 12, 2002 - 15:52:55 »
First accept it as a sincere effort to share.
Second, decide whether you are in agreement with the writers position or in opposition.
Third, inform him and proceed in a gentlemanly manner.

Hawk, Dan may well be sharing something that he finds rather profound for our edification. He has obviously spent considerable time in research, (Almost thought I was reading a doctoral thesis there!). If one is not in agreement, disagree respecting the considerable effort he has expended. Remember that after that much effort, you will find him rather committed to his position. respect that.

Personally I prefer to lighten the powder charge with a little respectful humor before I start into the meat of the discussion. Sometimes that works and other times the whole armory erupts around me. Not a new experience, that!

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« Reply #1 on: Sat Oct 12, 2002 - 15:52:55 »

Offline Booty

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The Christian and his Fruit
« Reply #2 on: Sat Oct 12, 2002 - 17:41:40 »
Different circumstances, quite different.

But leave it in the past, or resurrect the thread if you must. I for one will not participate with you.

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« Reply #2 on: Sat Oct 12, 2002 - 17:41:40 »

Offline janine

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« Reply #3 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 08:45:51 »
So, Dan,

When formerly you thought the passages in question supported the Holy Spirit of God working within you & "growing fruit"...

And now that you think that the Holy Spirit of God may dwell within you (- you made no arguments against that idea from Scripture -), but you don't think it's His job to produce anything in you... it looks like you're saying all the changes are due to our own desire to change...

Are there any differences produced by that shift in your thiking, as far as your actions, your worship towards God, etc.?

In other words, you've studied this out & shaped up your conclusions; has it changed how you live out your faith?

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« Reply #3 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 08:45:51 »

Offline winky

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« Reply #4 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 11:42:20 »
Dan,

You may have covered this, and I may have just missed it. If so, forgive me. If the Holy Spirit's function is not fruit-production, and it's function was the tongues and miracles back in the day, what is it's function today?

Winky

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« Reply #4 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 11:42:20 »



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« Reply #5 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 17:58:59 »
Quote
Dan, thank you for your thoughts.  I have a few questions in trying to understand your position [and I will readily admit I may just have overlooked the answers - if so, forgive me].

If you have no idea "what or if the HS does anything today" how do you explain Romans 8:26-27?  Are you not questioning the existence of the Holy Spirit as a separate manifestation of God?

As to Galatians 5 - are you saying that the fruit of the spirit is not from God?  If so, from whom does it come and why the distinction between the "works" of the flesh and the "fruit" of the spirit?  And how do you explain verse 25?  Whose spirit or what spirit do you believe Paul is referring to?

Thanks.

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« Reply #5 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 17:58:59 »

Offline MRBILL

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« Reply #6 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 22:30:10 »
Dan,

You must have been saved at an early age.  I say this because sometimes people saved in early childhood do not see or feel the difference that the Holy Spirit has made in their lives since they have not experienced a life of sin.  

I was saved at the age of 33 and I can testify that I experienced a tremendous change in my life and I might add that the change was instantaneous.  My coworkers were coming up to me and saying things like whats happened to you you have really changed.  I attribute this change in attitude and lifestyle not to my understanding of the scripture for I had none, but to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:13  for if you are living according to the flesh , you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 8:14  For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.

Philippians 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Galations 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

I really believe that I wouldn't last one day in the Christian life without the indwelling of the Holy spirit and His influence.  I have experienced the joy, the peace, the love that only the Holy spirit can produce.  To deny that would be tantamount to denying the Holy Spirit.

Yes, we must cooperate with the Holy spirit to produce the fruit that Jesus desires, but it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that we do so.

Grace and Peace be unto you brother Dan

mrbill

Offline Dan Smith

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« Reply #7 on: Tue Oct 15, 2002 - 10:58:58 »
Neophyte Posted on Oct. 14 2002,9:12

Dan,

I disagree that you have dealt with Galatians 5 in detail.  You have quoted it, but you have not addressed the point you are professing to explain.  To what is Paul referring if he is not referring to the spirit of God.  My question is very specific.  Who or what is the "spirit" referred to in the passage.  I have now re-read your initial post several times.  Other than quoting it, I do not see that you have addressed verse 25 at all.  What is the "spirit" by which we are to be led?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dan --
Having re-read my original I find you are absolutely correct -- I did not expond as I thought.  Thanks.

I had stated earlier that, for Paul, we all experience the dichotomy of our two natures (Adam's and God's) -- a continual battle for supremacy (Rom 7 is especially clear).  Here, in Gal 5, he introduces the concept (Gal is probably his earliest) of the conflict of spirit/flesh.  In 5:16, Paul says that by living (walking) under the direction of one's "spirit" (bearing fruit) can provide the "wherewithall" to control one's "fleshly" desires (works).  This thought continues thru vs 25.  When we are controlled by our Adamic nature (flesh) we manifest the "works" of flesh; when we are controlled by our God nature (spirit) we produce the "fruit" of rightesousness.  Bottom line -- it is our "spirit" nature that MUST control our "flesh" nature.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Neophyte --
Your dismissal of Romans 8:26-27 smacks of convenient analysis to support a preconceived idea.  If you are going to maintain the Holy Spirit does not exist you must explain such passages or forfeit all credibility.  If these passages are to be dismissed as possibly applicable to the first century Christians but of doubtful application to us, then what passages DO apply to us and how do we tell the difference?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dan --
Actually, I fought against my current understanding for years.  My "preconceived" idea was that I must be deficient because I was UNABLE to detect any activity of the "indwelling Spirit" as those first century saints.  I constantly doubted my salvation because of it.  As I continued to study, I realized that those early disciples had NO DOUBTS about the activity of the HS, because it was producing "wonders" in their lives -- prophecy, healing, tongues, etc.  When Paul encountered those who had received John's baptism (Acts 19:1-7) they were able to state immediately that, not only had they not received the HS but hadn't even heard of the HS.  How could they be so immediate and definite?  I believe it was because being "indwelt" by the HS meant that the one so "indwelt" worked signs/wonders as evidence of that "indwelling."

Absent such signs/wonders today, I conclude that we are not "indwelt" by the HS as they were.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Neophyte --
Finally, since your position seems to be based on your interpretation of the original intent and the quality of various translations, what are your qualifications for evaluating the quality of translation?  I am not a Greek scholar, but the uniformity on this issue causes me to be suspicious of the singular exception.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dan --
Neither am I a Greek scholar.   I know some.  As all of us, I must rely on God's providence to provide me with accurate translations of scripture, all of which are products of someone's knowledge of the original language.  I can research the various, often conflicting, renderings and reach my own conclusion.  That is the task of each of us.

I do not expect anyone to agree with my position.  I hope that each of us hold views that are "ours" rather than what we have "always been taught."  I have discovered much of this in my life as I attempted to defend long held beliefs.

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« Reply #8 on: Tue Oct 15, 2002 - 22:29:10 »
Dan,

I hope our views are ours as well.  But it seems to me that you are ignoring a lot just to explain your personal feelings or lack thereof.

Keep reading - blessings.

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« Reply #8 on: Tue Oct 15, 2002 - 22:29:10 »

Offline janine

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« Reply #9 on: Tue Oct 15, 2002 - 23:36:08 »
Dan:

Re: a previous comment from me about the qualitative difference in the pre- and post-conversion human being, you said that the difference was "positional".

So, if I understand you, you're saying that there is no difference between Dan Heathen and Dan Christian.  No difference in himself, I mean.

The only difference is which team he's signed up on.  The only difference is the destination stamped on the passport that comes with his Heavenly citizenship.

Some tally-mark list somewhere of his sins is checked off as "paid for", but there is no detectable qualifiable quantifiable difference in Dan.

The only difference in Dan, before versus after his conversion, is that now, out of a heart now grateful for the paid-off debt, Dan wants to do better.

Not because Dan has been permanently attached to his God by His God actually taking up residence in him, but just because Dan has changed his way of thinking.

Soooo.... conversion a la Dan is like a sex change operation.  Bits are cut off, bits are added, hormones are injected or ingested until the day the candidate dies, so as to enable him to live life as a woman...

But, conversion as I have understood it so far, with the blood-bought difference in the candidate, including ongoing cleansing through the continuous washing of the blood of the Sacrifice...

... and permanent contact with, capping off of, sealing by, indwelling of my God, the Spirit...

...this conversion is more like a change in gender accomplished by futuristic gene therapy.

Every cell in the body has been changed, so that there is no longer an "XY" configuration of chromosomes, but now there's "XX".  The candidate is now a woman.

With ovaries, a uterus and PMS, the ability to bear children should God will it, and a craving for chocolate almost rivaling her craving for sex... {Ha! Suze, Barb, et al, gotcha!}

Offline Dan Smith

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« Reply #10 on: Sat Oct 12, 2002 - 09:58:58 »
The Christian and his Fruit

(All scripture is from the American Standard Version unless otherwise stated.  
I have chosen this version for the reason many reject it – its literalness.
It helps me to better understand the original intent)

Recently, I have observed from the sidelines an on-line discussion of the work of the Holy Spirit, specifically His indwelling.  One brother stated with much candor: “  . . . if the Bible hadn't told that I got the gift of the HS, when I was immersed into Christ, it wouldn't have occurred to me that I had, or that it was even possible. There is nothing in my personal experience that verifies it, that could not as easily been explained by coincidence, or endorphins. Since the scriptures promise the indwelling Spirit, I believe I have it.

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« Reply #11 on: Sat Oct 12, 2002 - 13:32:00 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Booty @ Oct. 12 2002,07:20)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Dan,

Forgive me, but I am just a dumb bog Irish tinker, not one given to deep insights. Thus I have found that I don't need to dissect the Holy Spirit nor the scripture to know well His work in my miserable life. It is in my blood to rely on a more childlike faith in my Lord, the profundities are wasted on one like me.

The Holy Spirit is real to me, quite real. I find Him a great comfort and a trustworthy mate. He is like unto a rod & staff that comforts me. A special presence that, when I die to my stubborn pride and allow Him to, will take over my facilities and overcoming my fears and shyness allowing my voice to carry a gospel message. The fruit of this message, those who turn their lives over to Him, is His fruit and not mine to be sure.

english eludes my tongue at times, Spanish twists it in knots and my Irish is like cats wailing it is. Even the cant is nothing that the folk would ever recognize. So Greek will forever remain Greek to me. Subtle nuances in the original remain beyond my ken, so I am forced to simply believing and allow Him to guide me. This He does so aptly be knowing when to burden my heart and soul. The Holy Spirit dwelling within me does place this burden on me gently and lovingly and I as always will fight it to the last, but when I finally do listen I find myself the better for it. Sure but wouldn't I be better to understand the Greek, but then I do believe I can trust Him.[/quote]
How was I supposed to react to that first post?  What was he trying to do with it?

Offline MASouth

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« Reply #12 on: Sat Oct 12, 2002 - 16:39:31 »
I must say,

I wish you had followed this same advice on the "Are You Saved Thread...", Mr. Booty!

MaSouth

Offline david johnson

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« Reply #13 on: Sun Oct 13, 2002 - 03:46:33 »
dan:

i understand.

dj

Offline Dan Smith

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« Reply #14 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 09:42:49 »
Excellent question, Janine.

My behavior/attitudes (fruit of my spirit) have changed.  I attribute this to my desire to be more like Him (which I believe to be the mark of maturity/repentance) rather than to some kind of "guidance" from some external source (Holy Spirit).

The biggest change, is that I no longer look at each action/thought and wonder if this might be "fruit" borne by the Holy Spirit.

The end result is that I try to live each day to God's glory, accepting whatever help I receive from study of scripture, example/correction of fellow-travellers and most expecially, thru prayer.

I praise God constantly for creating me in such a way that there is a part of me (spirit/mind/heart) that can overcome that other part of me (flesh/body).

Offline janine

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« Reply #15 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 11:08:39 »
Weeeellll... Despite looking over your study... I still think there is benefit/effect/result/change/influence from the spirit of my God dwelling in me.  I live in Him, He lives in me.  It wasn't like that before.

I think there is a qualitative change in a person, from pre-conversion to post-conversion.  Having met the Lord where He wants you to, & having obediently accepted salvation, does more than just show how you are overcoming your own 'flesh' with your own 'spirit'.  Who needs the Lord to do that?  You can do it yourself, with a strong will, right?

I still do not sit around gazing at my spiritual navel, trying to figure out if I have any spiritual fruit growing.  Over-preoccupation with that, agonizing over that, dwelling on that, to the point that you're going to seminars and buying books about it, rather than trying to live it out in your home/family/church/job/community, is a Christianized self-indulgence.

Offline Dan Smith

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« Reply #16 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 17:01:03 »
Janine observes and asks --

I think there is a qualitative change in a person, from pre-conversion to post-conversion.  Having met the Lord where He wants you to, & having obediently accepted salvation, does more than just show how you are overcoming your own 'flesh' with your own 'spirit'.  Who needs the Lord to do that?  You can do it yourself, with a strong will, right?

Dan, here --

I couldn't agree more with your observation.  There is indeed a "qualitative" change at conversion -- saved, redeemed, sanctified, in Christ, child of God, etc.  The evidence of this new quality is behavior -- moral, ethical living FOR God.

Here's where the old saw "I'd rather see a sermon than hear one" falls short.  My golf partner and dear friend couldn't care less for God yet he is as moral, ethical, good-neighborly as any God-fearing disciple.  So what is the difference?  WHY is he that way?  He behaves the way he does because it pleases HIM to do so.  The Christian, on the other hand, behaves exactly the same way in order to show gratitude to God for his new/imporved condition -- a child of God.  My golf partner's spirit is that part of him that allows him to behave as he does, just as my spirit is what produces the same (most of the time) behavior.

The difference between us is POSITIONAL -- he is not in Christ while I am.  It is the Lord who gives meaning to the behavior of his child.

Winky then asks -- If the Holy Spirit's function is not fruit-production, and it's function was the tongues and miracles back in the day, what is it's function today?

Dan, again,

I don't KNOW (as did the first century Christians) what or if the HS does anything today.  I have seen/felt NO activity of the Spirit as those early disciples did.

Offline Dan Smith

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« Reply #17 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 20:04:21 »
Neophyte querries --

If you have no idea "what or if the HS does anything today" how do you explain Romans 8:26-27?  Are you not questioning the existence of the Holy Spirit as a separate manifestation of God?

As to Galatians 5 - are you saying that the fruit of the spirit is not from God?  If so, from whom does it come and why the distinction between the "works" of the flesh and the "fruit" of the spirit?  And how do you explain verse 25?  Whose spirit or what spirit do you believe Paul is referring to?

Dan, here --

As to Gal 5, see the original post.  I cover this in detail.

As to Rom 8 -- the first century saints, to whom Paul wrote, could rest assured that their infirmities would be taken care of by the Holy Spirit.  Is this a promise to anyone not directly addressed by Paul?  I don't know.

I am not a Trinitarian.  I do not believe the Holy Spirit was a separate manifestation of God, but rather, just a method of describing God's working in history.  And yes, I believe that Jesus WAS God.  The concept of father/son helps us understand God's incarnation.

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« Reply #18 on: Mon Oct 14, 2002 - 23:12:20 »
Dan,

I disagree that you have dealt with Galatians 5 in detail.  You have quoted it, but you have not addressed the point you are professing to explain.  To what is Paul referring if he is not referring to the spirit of God.  My question is very specific.  Who or what is the "spirit" referred to in the passage.  I have now re-read your initial post several times.  Other than quoting it, I do not see that you have addressed verse 25 at all.  What is the "spirit" by which we are to be led?

Your dismissal of Romans 8:26-27 smacks of convenient analysis to support a preconceived idea.  If you are going to maintain the Holy Spirit does not exist you must explain such passages or forfeit all credibility.  If these passages are to be dismissed as possibly applicable to the first century Christians but of doubtful application to us, then what passages DO apply to us and how do we tell the difference?

Finally, since your position seems to be based on your interpretation of the original intent and the quality of various translations, what are your qualifications for evaluating the quality of translation?  I am not a Greek scholar, but the uniformity on this issue causes me to be suspicious of the singular exception.

Offline kanham

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« Reply #19 on: Tue Oct 15, 2002 - 17:07:31 »
Dan,

It seems that you have fallen into that dangerous trap of trying to identify specific works of the Spirit.

We are studying the Holy Spirit right now and that is one of my first warnings. Trying to specifically identify the works of the Holy Spirit leads to two extremes. One denies that the Spirit indwells and the other leads to false manifestations. I challenge the congregation to not try and identify, but to simply give glory to. To know that the Holy Spirit is helping, aiding, and that the more appropriate question is, How do I allow the Spirit to work in my life.

Both extremes in the end are very self-centered. One proves he is a Christian by what he does and the other proves it by some manifestation. As you have stated, both can be faked. Paul calls us to die to self, tells us we have been crucified with Christ and now he lives in us. This teaching is anything but self-centered.

People say I can’t separate what I do from what the Holy Spirit does so it must be me doing it. Why would that not just as plausibly be that it is the Holy Spirit doing all of it? Because that takes away something from me? I don’t need anything. I have all I need in Jesus Christ.

The problem with simplifying the Spirit to my spirit, my actions and my understanding is I become the final authority. The church is something much larger then my individual acts and understanding. It has a greater dynamic that to me can only be explained by the Spirit’s indwelling.

Dan I have read many books that come from your stand point. I have studied the texts in Greek and I would disagree. In the end I appreciate your thoughts and your willingness to share.

Thank you. Pray for me and I will pray for you.

Offline Jones518

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« Reply #20 on: Wed Oct 16, 2002 - 07:56:17 »
Janine,

Wunderbar!  Amen, that was a great post.

J