GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: topic for segell  (Read 3179 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

  • Guest
topic for segell
« on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 13:43:11 »
Tim,

Is that a sermon you preached?

Is there more to the original article that you have not shared? I was looking for his statement that the person could live anyway he wanted to, live like hell and go to heaven.

If you could give me more I would appreciate it. I am not saying he didn't say it, I just don't see that in what you have furnished.

Thanks.

Christian Forums and Message Board

topic for segell
« on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 13:43:11 »

Offline Nevertheless

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13259
  • Manna: 427
  • Gender: Female
  • Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord!
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #1 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 01:35:31 »
Tim's article was written by Larry Ray Haffley and can be seen here

http://www.watchmanmag.com/0410/041016.htm

Christian Forums and Message Board

topic for segell
« Reply #1 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 01:35:31 »

Offline kanham

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Manna: 208
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 12:14:39 »
Tim,

Exactly what Mr. Haffley has done with the other sides views.

It simply depends on which side you stand if you see it that way. I was attempting to show you what that would look like.

Many taught Mr. Haffley's perspective have come to all the conclusions I have shared. Just as many have taken incorrect conclusions of the idea he presents as \"once saved always saved.\"

I to am at a loss to understand how you could come to your conclusion.

Not that long ago I met a man in the hospital, he was dying. I talked to him about his soul. He informed me that he had been baptized as a baptist as a child years ago. We talked but in the end I only angered him, and I could see I was not helping him draw near to Jesus Christ.

I called the Baptist pastor in town to ask if he knew the man. He said he came as a child but hadn't darkened the door of a church or professed any faith, or shown any faith in his actions, since. The man was lost and he was praying for him. This doesn’t sound like “once saved always saved

Christian Forums and Message Board

topic for segell
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 12:14:39 »

Offline segell

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Manna: 283
  • Gender: Male
  • segell
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #3 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 10:24:23 »
Tim

What do you suppose Paul was writing about in Ephesians 1?  Especially verses 11-14:  

\"11. In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, 12. in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of His glory.  13.  And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.  Having believed, you were MARKED with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, 14. who is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of His glory.\"  NIV. (Emphasis mine).  

The verse you cite, Galatians 5:4 doesn't say anything with regard to whether the person who obligates himself to the law is saved or in Christ.  Paul is making a HUGE point about those that point to the law, rules, stipulations and/or conditions as being necessary for salvation or acceptance.  They rely on the law and not grace!!  They will then be obligated to obey the whole law and not live under the grace of God that is ours through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.  And, of course, the terrible danger is that noone can live by the law.

Tim, once we are in Christ, truly in Christ, we no longer live in our strength.  We become new creations by the power of God's Spirit.  God, who began His work in us, will finish it.  

We must Look outside of ourselves for our assurance.  Our faithfulness, if in our strength, is no faithfulness at all.  The only way we remain faithful is if Christ is in us.  That happens by God's grace through faith in all that Christ accomplished on our behalf.  

You're correct - God will never break a promise.  He will complete the work He started in His children.  Those He is in and those who are in Him.  God does it all.  

With respect, Tim, what you say with regard to grace is no grace at all.  You place the focus of our salvation and our faithfulness on us instead of the Lord.  That's the first misstep in understanding grace.  And it places a burden and yoke that is far from what God planned for His children.  

Perhaps, in your experience, you've known many to have \"fallen\".  Perhaps they were burdened and consequently crushed under the weight of trying to live up to a list of \"to-do's\" or laws.  They, perhaps, neither knew nor lived under grace.  Paul's stern admonishment to the Galatians is an admonishment we must ponder in our own lives.  Do we live faithfully in our own strength or in the power of God's Spirit by His grace?

Steve

Christian Forums and Message Board

topic for segell
« Reply #3 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 10:24:23 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline jarschqua

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 277
  • Manna: 0
  • Jambo
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #4 on: Wed Feb 19, 2003 - 12:23:10 »
very interesting points tim
i enjoyed reading your post

Christian Forums and Message Board

topic for segell
« Reply #4 on: Wed Feb 19, 2003 - 12:23:10 »



Offline Tim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #5 on: Thu Feb 20, 2003 - 14:05:46 »
kanham wrote:
\"So I wonder what law of liberty means to you.\"

I thought that I did explain what I considered the \"law of liberty\" to be. I wish that I were better in presenting things. I beg your pardon. If you will bear with me, perhaps I can better explain myself.

In Jn. 12:48, Jesus clearly tells us that we will stand before Him and be judged by the words that He has spoken. This then, the words of Christ Himself are a part of the law of liberty.

But just in case we are tempted to regard only those words written in red as the law of liberty, I also include the words of the inspired apostles. Why? Because Jn. 14:26, Jn. 15:26, 2 Tim. 3:16 and 2 Pet. 1:21 teach this, I believe.

So, when we combine all of this, we have the entire New Testament. This is the law of liberty.

My reference to James 2:12 was because, as far as I know, this is the only book which actually calls it the \"law of liberty\" or the \"perfect law of liberty.\" But when you compare Jn. 12:48 with James 2:12, I believe that you must conclude that they are speaking of the same thing.

Would you agree?

In His service,
Tim

Christian Forums and Message Board

topic for segell
« Reply #5 on: Thu Feb 20, 2003 - 14:05:46 »

Offline jarschqua

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 277
  • Manna: 0
  • Jambo
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #6 on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 09:25:14 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]And I must tell you I do not agree that we can reject something we have truly received from God - the gift of eternal life.  Where would be the hope and assurance in that?  I know that that is controversial, but I rest in God's sovereignty and His power for my salvation.  Can I sin, can I fall, will my relationship with God be disturbed by my rebellion?  Of course.  Will I lose my salvation?  No.  I would never teach anyone that.  I don't believe it is supported in Scripture.  (Believe me, I've debated this with others and I am aware of the arguments.  Again, those that suggest a person can lose their salvation after they've been truly saved place the power and focus of eternal life onto the person and that's not where I believe Scripture reveals where the power and focus should be.  Also, this is a non-essential of salvation and worthy of debate - but not division).  The bible tells us we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, period.  The bible tells us the Father will not lose one He gives to the Son.  Period.  I trust that.

[/quote]


hey segell, i'm interested in hearing more about your beliefs here... i'm not sure if there's another thread already about this \"once saved, always saved\" stuff (if so, moderators feel free to move this); but if you don't mind exploring it some, i put it here for ya'lls consideration...

Offline James Rondon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 19760
  • Manna: 1746
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #7 on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 14:05:23 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Janine wrote:
Belief A says that God (being the Potter, after all) makes some of us to be with Him through eternity, and makes some of us to fry in Hell forever.  Both groups, presumably, to either fly or fry to His great glory.

Belief B says that isn't so, that we can come to him or not; but that, having come, we cannot leave.

Second belief sounds a lot nicer.  Kinda like tenure.[/quote]
I think you may have over-generalized here, Janine.

There are other beliefs regarding this, as well as sub-groups to your groups.

  • Guest
topic for segell
« Reply #8 on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 16:58:55 »
Tim,

Thanks for responding. If that is the case then It does not state facts in evidence. I can see no place where the original writer makes the claims that are in the post.

It seems that he has interpreted the mans views. I would need more information to make a judgement and0 if it was a sermon preached then it saddens me greatly.

Christian Forums and Message Board

topic for segell
« Reply #8 on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 16:58:55 »

Offline Tim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #9 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 13:21:36 »
kanham,
I'm really not following this at all. If your underlying point is that not ALL Baptist accept the \"Once Saved Always Saved\" doctrine, then I suppose I will concede the point. It would be presumptuous of me to catagorically state such a thing.

I can, however, point to the fact that as a group, the Southern Baptist Convention does make such a statement.

Official Website of the Southern Baptist Convention
http://sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp
The Baptist Faith and Message
V. God's Purpose of Grace
All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.


The Baptist say, \"Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end.\"
The Holy Spirit says in Galatians 5:4, \"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.\"

Would you say that those two statements are in agreement?

In His service,
Tim

Offline Bill

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1118
  • Manna: 15
  • Senior Member
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #10 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 07:17:17 »
nerdneh,s post on \"Once Married, Always Married\" gives some thoughts that might be helpful in understanding \"Once Save, Always Saved\".

btw, what sin is to large for God to forgive?

Offline Tim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #11 on: Wed Feb 19, 2003 - 10:37:31 »
Steve,
Let me address your comments a bit out of order, as you presented them.

segell wrote:
\"Nothing we do merits grace.\"
Now, Steve, this is a statement for which you will receive no argument from me. I agree completely, for it is written, \"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:\" (Eph 2:8)


segell wrote:
\"1. Faith/belief is a response. Either it is real or not. It is not a stipulation that merits grace.\"

Steve, let's get off this debate about what does or does not merit God's grace. As I stated above, I agree with you that NOTHING man believes or does merits (earns) the grace of God. Romans 5:8 says, \"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.\"

The issue is who falls under God's grace. Does God's grace extend to every human being on the planet, or are there limits to God's grace?

To say that one's faith/belief does not \"merit\" God's grace is one thing, but to say that God does not \"require\" a certain faith/belief is quite another thing.

Does not even Ephesians 2:8 say that faith is a requirement (stipulation)? Looking at the first part of the verse, \"For by grace are ye saved through faith,\" let's study that word \"through.\" The Greek word used here is \"dia.\" Strongs Lexicon says that it means, (1) by reason of; (2) on account of; etc. So could we not rightly say that we are saved by grace BECAUSE of our faith? Could we not rightly discern that in the absence of faith, we are NOT saved by grace? Do not these conclusions meet the test of logic?

Consider also the following passages:
Romans 4:3-5 says, \"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.  4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.  5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.\"
and
Hebrews 11:6 says, \"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.\"

Do these passages not teach that God does indeed \"stipulate\" or \"require\" a certain faith/belief?

If we can agree on this point, then we can move on.


What were the Galatians doing that caused Paul to say that they had fallen from grace (5:4)?
Here is but a sampling:
Gal. 1:6 - I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal. 3:1  O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal. 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal. 4:8-11  Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.  9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?  10  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.  11  I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Gal. 4:21  Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Conclusion - they had returned to doing and practicing the old law. They were trying to be Christians by obeying the OT law.

Now to the crux of the matter.
Where, in any of his blistering rebukes, does Paul question the faith of the Galatians? I contend that he does not. He does confirm that they had faith and had indeed become Christians in Gal 3:2 where he said, \"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?\" But Paul never tells the Galatians that they had lost their faith. He says instead that they had fallen from grace.

In other words, the Galatian letter was written to Christians who still had faith, but were DOING the wrong things. They had fallen from grace (cut themselves off from the grace of God - made Christ of no effect unto them) by DOING the wrong things.

So, if we are saved by grace through faith and that is all - why did Paul say that the Galatians had fallen from grace by DOING the wrong things? They still had their faith, and therefore should still be covered by the grace of God, but Paul said that they were not.

Interesting, don't you think?

In His service,
Tim

Offline Apollos

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Manna: 19
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #12 on: Thu Feb 20, 2003 - 19:39:19 »
Tim,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] So, when we combine all of this, we have the entire New Testament. This is the law of liberty.[/quote]


You seem to suggest that James’ ‘law of liberty’ refers to the entire NT. When James wrote that phrase, the NT is incomplete. At least, his epistle is not complete…well…he has 4 more chapters to go.  :D  Thus, I have difficulty with that view.

Offline janine

  • Guardian-Patroller of Lee's Outer Darkness
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14001
  • Manna: 370
  • Gender: Female
  • Good Stuff
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #13 on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 09:44:24 »
Belief A says that God (being the Potter, after all) makes some of us to be with Him through eternity, and makes some of us to fry in Hell forever.  Both groups, presumably, to either fly or fry to His great glory.

Belief B says that isn't so, that we can come to him or not; but that, having come, we cannot leave.

Second belief sounds a lot nicer.  Kinda like tenure.

Offline charlie

  • Quoted on every stupid baptism thread
  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3361
  • Manna: 95
  • Gender: Male
  • Here I come to save the day
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #14 on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 10:45:20 »
Our relationship with God is often compared to marriage. If I marry someone and then just leave them and never see them again, are we still married? Is this stretching the analogy too far?

Offline Tim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #15 on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 16:41:51 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Feb. 14 2003,1:43)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Tim,

Is that a sermon you preached?

Is there more to the original article that you have not shared? I was looking for his statement that the person could live anyway he wanted to, live like hell and go to heaven.

If you could give me more I would appreciate it. I am not saying he didn't say it, I just don't see that in what you have furnished.

Thanks.[/quote]
That's all there is. No, it is not a sermon that I preached. It came from an article on my computer. I don't know who wrote it - if I did, I don't remember writing it, but I surely believe what it says.

In His service,
Tim

Offline Bon Voyage

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16049
  • Manna: 408
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #16 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 10:03:30 »
I think there is a big group that believes that man has free will, but if they really know Jesus Christ and his grace and mercy, why would they want to leave?

Offline Son of a Preacher Man

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 662
  • Manna: 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #17 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 14:35:02 »
The prodigal son had his place with the father.  He had it all!  He was completely within the grips of his father's grace.  Yet, he chose to walk away from all this.  Can there be any doubt as to the fact that he was lost?  The story tells us as much repeatedly, but when he finally \"came to his senses\" he made his way back home.  The best part of it all to me is that his father was watching for him... scanning the horizon... awaiting his return.  The moment he saw him returning, the father ran to him and embraced him!  He didn't make the prodigal crawl all the way back and the truth be told, the son couldn't have made it back home without the Father to hold him and carry him. Sometimes we can try and crawl right past it!  Sometimes we'd like to think we can get back home all by our lonesome, but how wrong we are!

This is the grace of God.  We can embrace it or we can run away from it or try to crawl past it.  For a very long time I ran away and squandered my life in all the ways the prodigal did.  There is no doubt (in my mind, in God's eye, and in way Jesus tells us this story) that I was lost during this time, but when I decided to turn back home He was there waiting to wrap His gracious arms around me and carry me home.

I was lost... but He found me again.  There was time I had enjoyed all the creature comforts of my father's loving grace, but I ran away and squandered my inheritance.  

The brother clearly was a sinner.  He was selfish and he sure wanted to make his brother grovel and crawl his way back home, but the brother still had the father's love and a place with the father.  From this story we can also see how our day-to-day sins are covered by the Grace of God, but we must concede the difference between being a sinner inside God's grace and being one who is lost in sin. The prodigal lost himself in sin.  We don't fall from grace for every little sin but the story makes it clear we can become lost.

You can be saved and lost and found again.   The status of that return still has nothing to do with human effort, but human frailty can certainly tear us away from our place with the Father.



SoaPMan

Offline segell

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Manna: 283
  • Gender: Male
  • segell
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #18 on: Sun Feb 16, 2003 - 12:42:49 »
Hi.

Finally feeling better (been a little under the weather) and looking out the window as we in the mid-Atlantic area are getting at least two feet of show.  Whoa....

I would like to add to this discussion by saying that I'm not 100% sure of \"once saved, always saved\".  The Bible seems to say we are, then also seems to talk about losing salvation.  I don't believe this is an essential issue and I believe well intentioned Christians can disagree - but please we should never divide over this issue.  

With that said, I believe those that are truly in Christ are just that - truly in Christ.  The Bible tells us that believers are the Father's gift to the Son, John 17:24; that noone can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father, John 6:44; we are His adopted children, co-heirs with Christ Romans 8:17; we are sealed with the Spirit, marked by God, guaranteeing our \"inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession\"...Eph 1: 13-14; our names are in the book of life,  Phil 4:3, Rev 20:12, Rev 21:27.  

There are so many other verses that promise us eternal life through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.  Those that are in Him, He is in their hearts.  The bible says we must be born again to inherit eternal life John 3:3, 7; that we become new creations - the old is gone, new has come, 2 Cor 5:17.  

This is just a partial study.  But, what becomes apparent to me is that God is at work always and we are His workmanship - Eph 2:10.  He has known us from the beginning of time.  We, who are His, are written in the book of life and we are marked with a seal by the Holy Spirit who lives in us.  God began a work in us and He is faithful to bring us to Him in the end.  

Some will argue that we can give it all up.  There are verses about falling.  No doubt about that.  But I think the examples of falling are those that, for a season, are in rebellion and in sin.  I'm not certain that that is not also a process that God allows in order to bring the person to a deeper truth about Him.  

Like in the example of the prodigal son.  Was he lost?  I'm not convinced that is the purpose of the story.  The truth of the matter is the son never lost his status with the father, regardless of the period of time in rebellion.  I believe the son represents a person who is in Christ, a co-heir of Christ, who rebelled and sinned against God.  The son does come home, the son knows he doesn't deserve his father's lavish love, but he receives it.  In the story, the son is in rebellion for a significant period of time.  When we sin, we too, as Christians are in a period of rebellion.  We confess our sin and have the awesome privilege and joy of experiencing God lavishing His love upon us.  And we don't deserve it, do we?  But have we been lost unto salvation and eternal life?  No.  For a period, fallen, yes.  Lost?  I don't think so.  Because God is faithful to complete the work He began in us.  How do we know that the experiences we have as a result our period of rebellion is not part of God's entire plan and purpose in our lives.  I think that would be the case.  He is always at work on earth and in our lives.  

I'll rest trusting Him completely for my salvation.  I'll trust Him completely for the work He has begun in my life.  

Can a person, truly in Christ, reject Him?  Perhaps.  But that wouldn't make sense to me, because that person is now a new creation, a gift from the Father to His Son.  And I don't think the Father would allow my heart to go to such an ugly place as to consciously reject Christ Jesus.  And I don't believe the Father would take away a gift He has already given to HIs Son.  He is too trustworthy.  

Our lives are being lived to the glory of the Father and His Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ.  Amen?  As we constantly seek God's Kingdom in our lives, we don't have to worry ourselves about our eternal security.  God is our assurance for our inheritance that He promises.  God truly does it all!!  

Come Lord Jesus!!

Steve

Offline James Rondon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 19760
  • Manna: 1746
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #19 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 00:55:06 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Larry Ray Haffley[/quote]
I saw a tape of the Nashville Meetings, from several years back... Of which, Mr. Haffley was a participant. The discussion was over \"institutionalism\", and while giving his speech, Larry was almost foaming at the mouth.

He and a few others left a bad impression, at least on me. I don't know the man, and have only read a little of what he has written... (I was told, however, that he has a photographic memory... A very helpful tool in debating).

Offline Bon Voyage

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 16049
  • Manna: 408
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #20 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 13:38:03 »
Once Saved, Always Saved from a more baptist perspective.  (I am not a Baptist, but I am part of a theologically similar movement).

Why would people who TRULY know the grace of Jesus and his mercy walk away from him?

It is usually understood that those who walk away or never bear any fruit must have never really been saved anyway.

You know the obvious, \"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'\"

Offline seekr

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2696
  • Manna: 171
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #21 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 16:23:53 »
Barb, thanks for responding to my post. When I had asked God in my confusion, after a debate with someone in my home, about this subject...He answered me with what I had in the first post. Kind of like windows popping up on a computer and I received it with great joy as I saw the truth of it. God has since kept adding to this and it makes all of scripture tied together with the common thread of love.

To the rest of you all--
Jesus love does not carry conditions, but to receive His love is no different than receiving His forgiveness...we have to forgive, to be forgiven and we have to love, to be loved by Him. And we cannot truly love, without His love in us. See, that is why Paul's letters to the Corinthians...he was teaching them how to show that love that they had received from God. This is what we should be following. This is why some of them died and some got sick. They were not showing concern for the poor, Christ's body. See again how it ties in. But God does have great patience with us and understands our immaturity and that is why we are more accountable the more we draw close to Him. It is continuing NOT taking care of one another after knowing the truth, that could cause our falling away. In that same chapter of Hebrews it says-\"10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the LOVE YOU HAVE SHOWN HIM as you have HELPED his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this SAME DILIGENCE to the very end, in order TO MAKE YOUR HOPE SURE.\" Did you catch that? He is saying the love you have shown Him, by helping HIS people. \"Love the Lord your God with all your heart...etc. and your neighbor as yourself.\" Faith + works. And then in Jer.--\"He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?\" declares the LORD\"

Again it is why Jesus said--\"In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.\"

Do this and live.

seekr

Offline jarschqua

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 277
  • Manna: 0
  • Jambo
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #22 on: Wed Feb 19, 2003 - 08:04:47 »
obedience is necessary to salvation
it doesn't merit that salvation but it is necessary to be saved
otherwise you make a mockery of peter, paul, john, jesus, and the holy spirit in all their statements and commands on what we must do.

a story i know you've heard:
there was a great flood. a man climbed onto his roof. three times a boat came by and told him to get in. he refused saying that he trusted in God to save Him.
he died. then asked God why He didn't save him from the flood.
God said \" i tried three times\".

trust in God won't save you from the flood of sin.
you cannot sit on your couch believing in God and going about your own business and expect to go to heaven. it won't happen. your faith is dead. and cannot save.
 you must act. you must try. you must make effort. you must obey. obeying doesn't make you worthy of grace. but God has never promised grace outside of some act on the part of man.

saved by grace yes, because even obedience isn't enough to save... but obedience is enough to make you His child, and God saves His children = through grace.

Offline Tim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #23 on: Fri Feb 21, 2003 - 09:53:11 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Tim,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] So, when we combine all of this, we have the entire New Testament. This is the law of liberty.[/quote]


You seem to suggest that James’ ‘law of liberty’ refers to the entire NT. When James wrote that phrase, the NT is incomplete. At least, his epistle is not complete…well…he has 4 more chapters to go.  :D  Thus, I have difficulty with that view.[/quote]
Apollos,
I'm sorry you have a problem with the idea that James' references to the \"law of liberty\" (Jas 2:12) and the \"perfect law of liberty\" (Jas 1:25) includes all of the New Testament.
Do you have the same problem with 1 Cor. 13:10?

I have already given you the Scriptural reasons why I believe that it does include all of the New Testament.

Which part of the NT would you disregard as not being a part of it, and why?

In His service,
Tim

Offline Tim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #24 on: Wed Feb 19, 2003 - 14:41:49 »
kanham,
One more thought -
In John 12:48, Jesus says, \"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.\"

James 2:12 says, \"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.\"

From these passages, can we not learn that the things that Jesus said and taught, whether quoted directly in Scripture or related by His inspired apostles, comprise the entity (the thing, the teachings) which James called the \"law of liberty.\"

Should we not strive to keep this law?

In His service,
Tim

Offline segell

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Manna: 283
  • Gender: Male
  • segell
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #25 on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 09:55:51 »
Jarschqua

Thanks for the invitation.  I will be happy to contribute.  Let me know what you would wish to discuss or explore.  

Exploring the depth of God's Truth is His wonderful, exciting, and adventurous gift to each of us.  Let's dive in and trust Him for His revelation.  He's given us all the gift of imagination because His imagination is boundless.  Let's unleash ours.  Amen?

Steve

ps - Janine, kinda close on the examples but your slant on belief A needs a little fine tuning, in my opinion.  You know, the first part of A and the entirety of B might just might work together.  They aren't mutually exclusive.

The exploration begins.... :D

Offline Tim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #26 on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 11:07:13 »
Here is a little article that seems to apply here.

\"Rev. Jones,\" writes a weekly column in his church bulletin entitled, \"From Your Pastor's Heart.\" From it, we extract the following:
\"We are often questioned about the eternity of our belief. People want to know if God will disown them. The emphatic answer is, no! By no means will God ever disown one of his children. Heb. 7:25 states this very clearly; ‘Hence, also, he is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them' (NAS). We are saved forever. We draw near to God through Christ, and He makes intercession for us. This gives us great assurance of our faith in Christ\"

Review Of Rev. Jones' Remarks
 (1) Observe this stark contrast between the word of the spirit of Jones and the word of the Spirit of Jesus:
Mr. Jones said, \"People want to know if God will disown them. The emphatic answer is, no! By no means will God ever disown one of his children.\"

The Bible says, \"I will smite them...and disinherit them\" (Num. 14:12). \"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: and men gather them, can cast them into the fire, and they are burned\" (Jn. 15:6). \"If we deny him, he will also deny us\" (2 Tim. 2:12). \"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off\" (Rom. 11:22).

God will \"Disinherit, cast forth, deny, and cut off\" some of his children. This cannot be speaking of the unsaved, for they have no inheritance and are already denied and cut off (Jn. 3:18). Thus, God will, contrary to Mr. Jones' claim, \"disown\" his disobedient children. Jones says, \"He won't.\" God says he will. Whom do you believe?

(2) As proof of his contention that God will never \"disown one of his children,\" Mr. Jones refers to Hebrews 7:25, \"Hence, also, he is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.\"

The passage is not disputed, nor is its teaching denied. It is certain that God will \"save forever those who draw near to God through Him\" (Christ). With that we are in complete agreement. There is no difference between us on that point.
However, that is not the question at issue. Mr. Jones believes, and Baptist doctrine teaches, that God will \"save forever\" those who cease to \"draw near to God.\" He says that God \"By no means will ever disown one of his children,\" even if they quit drawing near to God. Hebrews 7:25 makes no such promise to such people.

It is indeed possible for one who once drew near to God to depart–\"many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him\" (Jn. 6:66). \"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God\" (Heb. 3:12). Remember, there is absolutely no way that a child of God who draws near to God will ever be disowned. Jones is right about that, but what of those who, instead of drawing near, turn and \"draw back, or fall away? What of them? \"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul\" (Heb. 10:38, 39).
Conclusion: Those who \"draw near,\" God will \"save forever,\" but those who \"draw back\" do so \"unto perdition,\" or destruction.

(3) Other passages in the book of Hebrews show that Jones is wrong when he says that a child of God will not be disowned, no matter how he lives. Even if we did not know how to explain Hebrews 7:25, we would know that the Baptist doctrine of \"once saved, always saved,\" is false. As proof thereof, note the following passages in Hebrews.

\"Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him\" (Heb. 2:1-3).
 
\"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God\" (Heb. 3:12).

\"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it\" (Heb. 4:1).

\"Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief\" (Heb. 4:11).

\"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace\" (Heb. 10:26-29)?

\"Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled (Heb. 12:15).

These passages show us that Hebrews 7:25 does not teach that a child of God cannot, under any circumstances, be disowned. There is perfect harmony between these texts and that of 7:25. As long as one draws near to God, he is \"saved forever,\" but if one ceases to believe, departs from God and is \"defiled,\" a punishment worse than death awaits him!

(4) It is at this point that someone will say, \"But, the Lord said the child of God is ‘saved forever.' When he says that, he cannot turn and disown that person.\"

Well, let us see that God means when he says a man is saved and will not be lost. Let us ask him, \"Lord, when you say a man is saved, are you saying that he cannot be lost, no matter what else occurs? Is that what you are saying?\" Hear the Lord's answer to our question:

\"When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it (Ezek. 33:13). From this text, we learn what the Lord means when he says the righteous man \"shall surely live.\" He does not mean that he will live, no matter what he does, or how he lives. Rather, the Lord said that when I say he will surely live, \"if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.\"

Consider the reverse. God says the wicked shall surely perish. He says the wicked will be lost forever (Jn. 3:36). Do Baptists believe that because God says the wicked are condemned that they cannot be saved? Certainly, not! So, as we all believe that though the wicked are said to be doomed, we know that if they turn they can be saved. Likewise, though the righteous are said to be saved, they will be lost if they turn back into sin (Rom. 11:22).

\"At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them (Jer. 18:7-10).

Language could not be plainer to one who believes what the Lord said. To those who are wedded to a doctrine rather than love for the truth, nothing will suffice to convince their hardened hearts (2 Thess. 2:10-12).

Concluding Remarks
First, let it be noted by those who say we are \"answering questions no one is asking,\" that this Baptist preacher says he is \"often questioned\" about this topic. We know the answer he gives, and the danger it represents. If our brethren who think we ought not to deal directly with such issues had taught the truth on the subject, perhaps there would be fewer souls turning to men like \"Pastor Jones\" for answers.

Second, some find fault with reviews of this nature. They speak of how they sincerely appreciate the truth, but they \"just wish\" it had not been done in such a \"dogmatic,\" or \"bigoted,\" or \"legalistic,\" or \"pharisaical,\" or \"narrowminded\" (take your pick) manner.

Will those folks reprimand Mr. Jones for his plain, unequivocal avowals of his position? Note his \"dogmatic and judgmental\" reply to the question, \"Will God ever disown one of his children?\" Without testing the winds, without any sympathy for the \"heartfelt feelings\" of those who may disagree with him, the \"Rev. Jones\" says, \"The emphatic answer is, no! By no means will God ever disown one of his children.\" Now, that is bold and direct! When he states his position in clear and certain terms, allowing no space for a contrary view, he receives no rebuke. Why, then, are we criticized and condemned when we take an equally steadfast stance? Why is it right for a false teacher to state his error boldly and directly but wrong for us to oppose it in the same way?

Third, will those who know how to answer such men as Mr. Jones please do so? They say they agree with us. They say we are teaching the truth, but they think we are not doing it as it ought to be done. That is fine. Let our critics, then, do the work. Let them give the answers as they should be given. I shall be happy to step aside and let them say what should be said in the way it should be said. Any takers?

These final points may be seen as unnecessary and cited as proof of a well meaning, but misguided, malevolent spirit. Again, if that be so, let well meaning, but correctly guided, benevolent spirits take over and handle aright the word of truth.

The truth is that there is an attitude which looks down in disgust at contending for the faith. They believe that answering denominational doctrines is a disservice to the work of the Lord and that doing it demeans and diminishes us before the world. This spirit is at home declaring their despising of \"our traditions,\" but God forbid that they should dirty themselves by uprooting the traditions of men. They regale shallow, superficial spirituality with their mocking disdain of \"brotherhood watchdogs,\" making fun of those who endure hardness as good soldiers of Jesus Christ.

Beware of this popular, people pleasing spirit. It will not teach your children the difference between human religion and divinely revealed faith. It will not teach your grandchildren the exclusive, distinct nature of the church Jesus bled and died for. As it was before the days of Moses in Egypt when a king arose that \"knew not Joseph,\" so it will be among us that a generation will arise that knows neither Joseph, Jehovah, nor Jesus.

In His service,
Tim

Offline segell

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Manna: 283
  • Gender: Male
  • segell
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #27 on: Fri Feb 14, 2003 - 14:18:28 »
Tim

I plan on providing a study in response to your post sometime this weekend, Lord willing.  But, in the interim, could I make a suggestion similar to the one I made to Toddrow in another thread?  Can we please lose the denominational thing??  Please refer to my post under one of the baptism headings.

It just sounds kind of funny to talk about \"denominational\" this or that when there are those that look at the churches of Christ as a denomination.  From where I sit, it looks as if you need to step on one denomination in order to elevate your viewpoint.  

It just seems kind of bullyish to me.  State your views, state your perspectives on God's truth.  They will stand or fall on their own merits and do not need the boosting your \"denominational\" argument seeks.  

Just a thought.

Steve

Offline janine

  • Guardian-Patroller of Lee's Outer Darkness
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14001
  • Manna: 370
  • Gender: Female
  • Good Stuff
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #28 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 09:44:51 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Janine wrote:
Belief A says that God (being the Potter, after all) makes some of us to be with Him through eternity, and makes some of us to fry in Hell forever.  Both groups, presumably, to either fly or fry to His great glory.

Belief B says that isn't so, that we can come to him or not; but that, having come, we cannot leave.

Second belief sounds a lot nicer.  Kinda like tenure.[/quote]
I think you may have over-generalized here, Janine.

There are other beliefs regarding this, as well as sub-groups to your groups.[/quote]
I know.  I had no desire to give every subgroup a mention.

Offline James Rondon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 19760
  • Manna: 1746
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #29 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 12:17:33 »
... saved, lost, saved, lost, all day long ...  :frowning:

Offline kanham

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Manna: 208
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #30 on: Sun Feb 16, 2003 - 13:19:11 »
Tim,

I will try to make my point by taking the other view point and approaching the article you have presented.


The minister Larry Ray Haffley has a web site on which the article entitled “Hebrews 7:25 & \"Once Saved, Always Saved\"

Offline Tim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #31 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 10:15:40 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Mr. Haffley would have us believe that God will just decide to not save some of his children that He made the promise to. Mr. Haffley would have us believe that in the parable of the lost son God kicked the oldest son out of the house because he didn’t understand why the younger son received a party. He would have you believe that God allowed the younger son back into the house unless he accidentally didn’t clean his room, then back on the street you go. In his line of thinking the son would have to come back to the house continuously each time he sinned against the father.

Now would you consider this an accurate representation of Mr. Haffley’s view or would you consider it a misrepresentation?[/quote]
kanham wrote:
\"Mr. Haffley [sic] would have us believe that God will just decide to not save some of his children that He made the promise to.\"
Your statement seems to say that you believe brother Hafley has presented an argument which reveals God to be at best arbitrary, and at worst, a liar. Your words elude to the fact that brother Hafley speaks of God as One who will flippantly dismiss a promise. I am at a loss to understand how you could come to this conclusion. You have totally misrepresented brother Hafley's argument.

First, God will never break a promise (2 Peter 3:9). Also, God is incapable of lying (Heb. 6:18). God said in Hebrews 13:5 that He will never leave or forsake us. This all boils down to the fact that if there is a parting between God and one of His children, it is man that will do the parting, not God. This is His promise - He is faithful. If man remains faithful, then man can rest assured of every promise God has made.


kanham wrote:
\"Mr. Haffley [sic] would have us believe that in the parable of the lost son God kicked the oldest son out of the house because he didn’t understand why the younger son received a party.\"
Brother Hafley nowhere mentioned or eluded to the parable of the prodigal son.


kanham wrote:
\"He would have you believe that God allowed the younger son back into the house unless he accidentally didn’t clean his room, then back on the street you go.\"
Brother Hafley nowhere mentioned or eluded to the parable of the prodigal son.


kanham wrote:
\"In his line of thinking the son would have to come back to the house continuously each time he sinned against the father.\"
Brother Hafley nowhere mentioned or eluded to the parable of the prodigal son.


kanham wrote:
\"Now would you consider this an accurate representation of Mr. Haffley’s [sic] view or would you consider it a misrepresentation?\"
It is, in my opinion, a gross misrepresentation.

In His service,
Tim

Offline kanham

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Manna: 208
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #32 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 16:37:35 »
Tim,

As far as what you have shared,

“all true believers

Offline Tim

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #33 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 15:32:03 »
segell wrote:
The verse you cite, Galatians 5:4 doesn't say anything with regard to whether the person who obligates himself to the law is saved or in Christ.

Steve,
I contend that it says volumes about it. What Paul does say is this, \"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.\"

Are you contending, Steve, that you can be \"in Christ\" without Christ? If these Galatians, who had evidently returned to the old law of Moses, had nullified the effect of Christ in themselves, how could they still be \"in Christ?\"

Are you also saying that you can be saved once you have removed yourself from the grace of God? Paul says that \"they\" (the Galatians who returned to the law) had fallen FROM grace, not INTO grace. They once had it, but they fell FROM it. They had it no more. Can you be saved without the grace of God? I contend that you cannot.

segell wrote:
Paul is making a HUGE point about those that point to the law, rules, stipulations and/or conditions as being necessary for salvation or acceptance. They rely on the law and not grace!! They will then be obligated to obey the whole law and not live under the grace of God that is ours through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the terrible danger is that noone can live by the law.

Steve,
Paul was speaking of the law of Moses, the Old Testament law. You, on the other hand, are evidently speaking of the New Testament law - as James puts it, the perfect law of liberty (Jas 1:25).

Are you saying that we should not point to this perfect law of liberty, and follow it?

Are you saying that as Christians, there are no rules to follow? We can do whatever we want, whenever we want, and there is no consequence for our actions?

Are you also saying that there are no stipulations and/or conditions necessary for salvation?

How about this, Steve.
BELIEF, it is a stipulation/condition for salvation?
Mk 16:16, Jn 3:18, and Jn 3:36 all say that it is. Shall you resist the Holy Ghost and say that it is not?

CONFESSION, it is a stipulation/condition for salvation?
What does Matt 10:32-33 say? What would it mean to have Jesus Christ deny you before Almighty God? Would that be a good thing? Do you think you would be in God's good grace if Jesus denied you?

I could go on and on.

Also with respect, Steve;
Steve says, \"And it places a burden and yoke that is far from what God planned for His children.\"
Jesus says, \"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.\" (Matt 11:30)
Jesus says, \"If ye love me, keep my commandments.\" (John 14:15)
Paul says, \"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.\" (Philip 4:13)

You contend that I have taken the first misstep in understanding grace. That may be true. I might likewise suggest that perhaps you have taken the second misstep in understanding grace. I believe with all my heart that without the grace of God, there would be no hope for any of us. His grace is like a life-line, thrown out to all, but Steve, we must grab hold of that life-line in order to reap the glory from it.

In His service,
Tim

Offline segell

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Manna: 283
  • Gender: Male
  • segell
    • View Profile
topic for segell
« Reply #34 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 22:10:40 »
Tim

Thanks for the detailed response.  Unfortunately I have to leave for a few days and won't have the opportunity to respond until this Sunday at the earliest.  Hope you will have patience with me.

These thoughts before I have to go:

1.  Faith/belief is a response.  Either it is real or not.  It is not a stipulation that merits grace.  Nothing we do merits grace.

2.  Where does it say we have to grab onto the lifeline of grace in order to reap glory from it?  Tim, we are saved by that grace through faith in Christ Jesus.  Period.

Nonetheless, I will respond to the Scriptural points you make - especially with regard to the law.  I think Paul was speaking more broadly than just on Mosaic Law.  He was speaking with regard to man's attitude - that there is something man must do or contribute. to be saved or accepted.  Paul'sl admonishment is stern.  What would be his admonishment today, Tim?

Take care.  Will return on Sunday.

Steve