Tim's article was written by Larry Ray Haffley and can be seen here

http://www.watchmanmag.com/0410/041016.htm

Tim

What do you suppose Paul was writing about in Ephesians 1?  Especially verses 11-14:  

\"11. In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, 12. in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of His glory.  13.  And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.  Having believed, you were MARKED with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, 14. who is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of His glory.\"  NIV. (Emphasis mine).  

The verse you cite, Galatians 5:4 doesn't say anything with regard to whether the person who obligates himself to the law is saved or in Christ.  Paul is making a HUGE point about those that point to the law, rules, stipulations and/or conditions as being necessary for salvation or acceptance.  They rely on the law and not grace!!  They will then be obligated to obey the whole law and not live under the grace of God that is ours through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.  And, of course, the terrible danger is that noone can live by the law.

Tim, once we are in Christ, truly in Christ, we no longer live in our strength.  We become new creations by the power of God's Spirit.  God, who began His work in us, will finish it.  

We must Look outside of ourselves for our assurance.  Our faithfulness, if in our strength, is no faithfulness at all.  The only way we remain faithful is if Christ is in us.  That happens by God's grace through faith in all that Christ accomplished on our behalf.  

You're correct - God will never break a promise.  He will complete the work He started in His children.  Those He is in and those who are in Him.  God does it all.  

With respect, Tim, what you say with regard to grace is no grace at all.  You place the focus of our salvation and our faithfulness on us instead of the Lord.  That's the first misstep in understanding grace.  And it places a burden and yoke that is far from what God planned for His children.  

Perhaps, in your experience, you've known many to have \"fallen\".  Perhaps they were burdened and consequently crushed under the weight of trying to live up to a list of \"to-do's\" or laws.  They, perhaps, neither knew nor lived under grace.  Paul's stern admonishment to the Galatians is an admonishment we must ponder in our own lives.  Do we live faithfully in our own strength or in the power of God's Spirit by His grace?

Steve

kanham wrote:
\"So I wonder what law of liberty means to you.\"

I thought that I did explain what I considered the \"law of liberty\" to be. I wish that I were better in presenting things. I beg your pardon. If you will bear with me, perhaps I can better explain myself.

In Jn. 12:48, Jesus clearly tells us that we will stand before Him and be judged by the words that He has spoken. This then, the words of Christ Himself are a part of the law of liberty.

But just in case we are tempted to regard only those words written in red as the law of liberty, I also include the words of the inspired apostles. Why? Because Jn. 14:26, Jn. 15:26, 2 Tim. 3:16 and 2 Pet. 1:21 teach this, I believe.

So, when we combine all of this, we have the entire New Testament. This is the law of liberty.

My reference to James 2:12 was because, as far as I know, this is the only book which actually calls it the \"law of liberty\" or the \"perfect law of liberty.\" But when you compare Jn. 12:48 with James 2:12, I believe that you must conclude that they are speaking of the same thing.

Would you agree?

In His service,
Tim

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Janine wrote:
Belief A says that God (being the Potter, after all) makes some of us to be with Him through eternity, and makes some of us to fry in Hell forever.  Both groups, presumably, to either fly or fry to His great glory.

Belief B says that isn't so, that we can come to him or not; but that, having come, we cannot leave.

Second belief sounds a lot nicer.  Kinda like tenure.[/quote]
I think you may have over-generalized here, Janine.

There are other beliefs regarding this, as well as sub-groups to your groups.

kanham,
I'm really not following this at all. If your underlying point is that not ALL Baptist accept the \"Once Saved Always Saved\" doctrine, then I suppose I will concede the point. It would be presumptuous of me to catagorically state such a thing.

I can, however, point to the fact that as a group, the Southern Baptist Convention does make such a statement.

Official Website of the Southern Baptist Convention
http://sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp
The Baptist Faith and Message
V. God's Purpose of Grace
All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.


The Baptist say, \"Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end.\"
The Holy Spirit says in Galatians 5:4, \"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.\"

Would you say that those two statements are in agreement?

In His service,
Tim

Steve,
Let me address your comments a bit out of order, as you presented them.

segell wrote:
\"Nothing we do merits grace.\"
Now, Steve, this is a statement for which you will receive no argument from me. I agree completely, for it is written, \"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:\" (Eph 2:8)


segell wrote:
\"1. Faith/belief is a response. Either it is real or not. It is not a stipulation that merits grace.\"

Steve, let's get off this debate about what does or does not merit God's grace. As I stated above, I agree with you that NOTHING man believes or does merits (earns) the grace of God. Romans 5:8 says, \"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.\"

The issue is who falls under God's grace. Does God's grace extend to every human being on the planet, or are there limits to God's grace?

To say that one's faith/belief does not \"merit\" God's grace is one thing, but to say that God does not \"require\" a certain faith/belief is quite another thing.

Does not even Ephesians 2:8 say that faith is a requirement (stipulation)? Looking at the first part of the verse, \"For by grace are ye saved through faith,\" let's study that word \"through.\" The Greek word used here is \"dia.\" Strongs Lexicon says that it means, (1) by reason of; (2) on account of; etc. So could we not rightly say that we are saved by grace BECAUSE of our faith? Could we not rightly discern that in the absence of faith, we are NOT saved by grace? Do not these conclusions meet the test of logic?

Consider also the following passages:
Romans 4:3-5 says, \"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.  4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.  5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.\"
and
Hebrews 11:6 says, \"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.\"

Do these passages not teach that God does indeed \"stipulate\" or \"require\" a certain faith/belief?

If we can agree on this point, then we can move on.


What were the Galatians doing that caused Paul to say that they had fallen from grace (5:4)?
Here is but a sampling:
Gal. 1:6 - I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal. 3:1  O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal. 3:3  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal. 4:8-11  Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.  9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?  10  Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.  11  I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
Gal. 4:21  Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Conclusion - they had returned to doing and practicing the old law. They were trying to be Christians by obeying the OT law.

Now to the crux of the matter.
Where, in any of his blistering rebukes, does Paul question the faith of the Galatians? I contend that he does not. He does confirm that they had faith and had indeed become Christians in Gal 3:2 where he said, \"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?\" But Paul never tells the Galatians that they had lost their faith. He says instead that they had fallen from grace.

In other words, the Galatian letter was written to Christians who still had faith, but were DOING the wrong things. They had fallen from grace (cut themselves off from the grace of God - made Christ of no effect unto them) by DOING the wrong things.

So, if we are saved by grace through faith and that is all - why did Paul say that the Galatians had fallen from grace by DOING the wrong things? They still had their faith, and therefore should still be covered by the grace of God, but Paul said that they were not.

Interesting, don't you think?

In His service,
Tim

Belief A says that God (being the Potter, after all) makes some of us to be with Him through eternity, and makes some of us to fry in Hell forever.  Both groups, presumably, to either fly or fry to His great glory.

Belief B says that isn't so, that we can come to him or not; but that, having come, we cannot leave.

Second belief sounds a lot nicer.  Kinda like tenure.