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Online Rella

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Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/trinity-deniers-what-did-jesus-mean-and-why/msg1055187729/#new

Was a brief discussion addressing the "Trinity".

But here is something no one ever talks of that I suppose is because it is not addressed biblically.


God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Without question or doubt on my part I believe in the Holy Trinity . (* at the end if this are a listing of some of the verses that affirm my belief in this)

The Holy Bible is replete with references to the Triune nature of God, while at the same time in  Isaiah 43:10 we are told...

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

Then from John 1:1  In the beginning the word was with God and the Word was God.


Ignoring Gen 1:2 for this thread ( And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.)

Hebrews 11:3  By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

We have an understanding knowledge that the Word of Genesis was Jesus.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 10:30 further says I and the Father are one.”

Mathew 3:17
This is my son in whom I am well pleased.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


Knowing that God the Father always has been   (Isaiah 43:10)

Knowing that in the beginning was the Word. (Gen 1:1)

Knowing that , even if you are not a trinitarian you must believe that God the Father and God the Son God....John 10:30

Knowing that Jesus came in the flesh to earth for the fulfillment of God's plan.( another debate subject)
(John 1:14)

Knowing that God called Jesus his son upon Jesus baptism ( Mathew 3:17)

When did Jesus become Gods son? Was it after he became mortal or was it always
===========================================

* in alphabetical order
 Acts 1:8,  Acts 2:4,  Acts 2:33 , Acts 2:38 , Acts 5: 3-4, Acts 10:38, Acts 13:2, Acts 20:28 ~  Colossians 2:9 1~    1 Corinthians 2:10-11 , 1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19,  1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:11     2 Corinthians 13:14, ~   Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 4:30, ~ Genesis 1:1-2, Genesis 1:26  ~ Hebrews 9:14 ~     Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 48:16, Isaiah 61:1 ~ John 14:16-17,  John 14:26,  John 15:26, John 16:7,  John 16:13 ~   1John 5:7 ~ Luke 1:35,  Luke 3: 21-22 ~ Mathew 3:16-17,  Mathew 28-19 ~ 1Peter 1:2 ~ Psalm 104:30, Psalm104 :30 , Psalm 139:7 ~ Romans 8:9,  Romans 8:11,                  Romans 8:26-27

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #1 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 11:04:43 »
When did Jesus become Gods son? Was it after he became mortal or was it always
That's a hard question, and I'm not sure the answer matters much.  ::headscratch::

You have already showed that The Word exists from eternity past, and was present even at the creation.  Per John 1:14 that you have already quoted, Jesus is the human incarnation of the Word.  So, is Jesus merely a synonym for The Word, or can you put a difference between the two?

FWIW, the question you have posed was a source of argument in the early church.  Some held Jesus was begotten at birth, the time of incarnation.  Others held that it happened at His baptism, which seems to be based upon the voice from the heavens quoting Psalm 2:7 at that time.

Psalm 2:7 Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #2 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 15:06:31 »
Quote from: OP quesiton
When did Jesus become God's son? Was it after he became mortal or was it always
This question is absolutely imperative to understand, or else you will end up denying the deity of Jesus Christ. I will come back in the morning and give my understanding which I trust is solely built upon God's testimony. He became God Son AT CONCEPTION in the womb of a virgin named Mary when the Holy Ghost came upon her, and the power of the Highest overshadow her: therefore also that holy thing which was conceived in her, WAS called the Son of God~up until THAT POINT God had no Son.
Quote from: OP
We have an understanding knowledge that the Word of Genesis was Jesus.
This is incorrect~the Word, in the beginning, was God, period! The Word was made flesh in the person of God's Son when the Word which was God join Himself to the tabernacle of Jesus Christ.

Later.....RB

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #2 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 15:06:31 »

Online Jaime

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #3 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 18:52:18 »
What about John 1:1 and vs 14?

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #3 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 18:52:18 »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #4 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 20:00:26 »
This is incorrect~the Word, in the beginning, was God, period! The Word was made flesh in the person of God's Son when the Word which was God join Himself to the tabernacle of Jesus Christ.

Later.....RB

As Jaime pointed out

Quote
What about John 1:1 and vs 14?

And I took the liberty of posting the verses from your KJV John 1:1 ;14

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Even King Jimmy's men says the Word was in the beginning and the Word was with God as well as the Word was God.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #4 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 20:00:26 »



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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #5 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 20:57:41 »
Gen 1:26 is curious to me:

26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

US and OUR as in PLURAL!

Even the Hebrew word for God (Elohim)  is plural with the “im” suffix.

https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/1-26.htm
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 21:07:09 by Jaime »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #5 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 20:57:41 »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #6 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 05:01:04 »
As Jaime pointed out

And I took the liberty of posting the verses from your KJV John 1:1;14
John added:
Quote from: John
John 1:18~"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Jesus Christ is God being ONE with Him in his Divine nature. Thereby, it could be said scripturally that Jesus Christ created ALL THING making him the EVERLASTING Father of everything~all things, whether visible or invisible were created by and "for" Jesus Christ, and without him there was not anything created.
Quote from: Paul
Colossians 1:15-17~"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Jesus Christ being the Son of God THROUGH A VIRGIN GIRL named Mary according to the testimony of the scriptures~he is the PERFECT image of the invisible God~image can only be understood in this sense: WISDOM, KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING, and RIGHTEOUSNESS/HOLINESS. This image is given to the elect seed of Jesus Christ for whom he suffered and died for~per John 17
Quote from: Jaime  on: Yesterday at 20:57:41
Gen 1:26 is curious to me:

26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

US and OUR as in PLURAL!
Brother, it is so to many others as well. The only sense which would flow perfectly with all scriptures would be God is speaking to the elect angels that did not fall with the many that did fall. They all were created in God's image, and the election preserved some.....millions upon millions, a number no man can number. I'm very much aware of many who reject totally angles, spirit just as the Sadducees of old, yet there is ample proof to prove otherwise that they are so wrong. http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=3659.msg51723;topicseen#msg51723 

Another subject for another day, one I would be very happy to be part of.

I'll post some thoughts later~RB

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #7 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 05:13:16 »
But the angels would have no part in making man, in anyone’s image especially God’s. I don’t believe the “us” would refer to anyone other than God the Father, God the Word and God the Holy Ghost. Not 3 entities as we would define entities, but the totality of the Godhead. We know from John 1 that the Word spoke the world into existence and the Word, that WAS God and was WITH God came down to dwell among us as Jesus, a d God the Father a d God the Spirit remained in heaven. It wasn’t  three old friends from eternity past sitting up in heaven having a conversation and it wasn’t God conversing with the angels somehow as participants in the creation process in my opinion.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 06:08:55 by Jaime »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #8 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 06:40:08 »
But the angels would have no part in making man, in anyone’s image especially God’s.
They did not have any part as we all know~the expression is God revealing to them His plans from eternity past~nothing more.
Quote
I don’t believe the “us” would refer to anyone other than God the Father, God the Word and God the Holy Ghost.
God was not known even to angles of the different workings of the Godhead~in the OT God was not known to most by any name other than God Almighty~Jehovah was revealed as time went on..... 
Quote from: Moses
Exodus 6:3~"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."
God the Father is for the most part NT revelation along with God the Son.
Quote from: Peter
1st Peter 1:10-12~"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."
One truth for sure~There is ONE GOD that is manifested to us as THREE ONLY according to EACH respective work in the redemption of God's elect.  This is the great mystery of godliness. It is not that difficult to understand IF we only speak according to the oracles of God and do not allow man's teachings corruption what the scriptures reveal to us.  The KEY to understand this mystery is to rightly divide the complex nature of Jesus Christ just as the scriptures will do for us if we live only by them and teach according to them and not according to the creeds of men. Jesus was truly God manifest in human flesh, but God was NOT JESUS CHRIST, for He is a Spirit that inhabiteth eternity and that will never change, impossible for it to change. No man or angels have ever seen God and never will EXCEPT in the person of Jesus Christ who IS the express image of God, being the ONLY begotten Son of God in the manner in which he was begotten.
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 15:27,28~"For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
Jesus Christ  as a MAN will subject himself under God who put all thing under him that God who is a Spirit, will be ALL in ALL, and Jesus as a man will reign as God blessed forever over the new creation of God in the world to come. Selah

More later....RB
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 06:44:49 by RB »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #8 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 06:40:08 »

Online Jaime

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #9 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 07:22:44 »
One disagreement of sorts Red. God was known as or spoken of as Elohim in Genesis in the Hebrew language of Moses, including Genesis 1:1. Elohim is a plural reference to the ONE God. It was not God’s name but a description. Yehovah or Jehovah is his name. Elohim may have been the best explanatory word for an inexplicable truth about a triune God. And even triune is probably not a good explanation. Man is also triune in that we are body, soul and spirit, yet one individual.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 07:33:47 by Jaime »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #10 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 08:38:17 »
One truth for sure~There is ONE GOD that is manifested to us as THREE ONLY according to EACH respective work in the redemption of God's elect.  This is the great mystery of godliness.
That just won't work.  Again and again, Jesus, the Son, spoke of "the Father who is in heaven"(Matt 5:16, 45; 6:1.9; 7:11,23; etc. etc). In fact in the ESV there are 20+ references to the "Father in heaven". The very fact of the Father in heaven and the Son on earth makes your assertion of the distinction only according to a respective work in redemption absolutely false.  In these instances, the ONE GOD is manifested to as two distinct beings, one in heaven and one on earth. 

When you add to this all the times that Jesus, the Son, was in prayer to the Father, the idea that Jesus was actually praying to Himself, just as another only according to a different respective work in redemption is just plain ludicrous.
Quote from: RB
The KEY to understand this mystery is to rightly divide the complex nature of Jesus Christ just as the scriptures will do for us if we live only by them and teach according to them and not according to the creeds of men.
That is indeed true.  The problem is that it is your description of this that is the creed of a man, namely the creed of RB.

Even the statement that Jesus was "seated at right hand of God" (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), "exalted at the right hand of God" (Acts 2:33; 5:31) and similar expressions elsewhere defies the notion that the distinction is only according to a different respective work in redemption.

Clearly throughout the scriptures, but especially the NT, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are depicted as three distinct and separate beings with these same three distinct and separate beings identified as the One True God.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #11 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 08:54:40 »
Gen 1:26 is curious to me:

26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

US and OUR as in PLURAL!

Even the Hebrew word for God (Elohim)  is plural with the “im” suffix.


https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/1-26.htm

Why? If you believe in the Trinity you certainly have to understand that each part has their "job" or "responsibility.

Jesus as the Word (before becoming human man) ... spoke.

Even the Holy Spirit ( Genesis 1:2 KJV 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.)

And God the Father....

Since each has their own things to do why would it be odd for the Father to talk to the other two?

We know from John 1:1 ... if you do not believe in the Trinity (as in no Holy Spirit as mentioned through out the new testament and that Jesus told them His father would be sending another comforter... yada yada yada))  John clearly states there are at minimum 2.

You cannot argue away from that.... 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word was with and the Word was.

So that is another point for the plurality in Gen

God said Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness  is no different then you saying to your wife "Let us go and do whatever".. it is more then one doing it.

NOW if you want to complete that thought from Genesis....
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Which would include the whales of vs 21.... THAT CERTAINLY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN IN the rivers mentioned in Genesis where thee Garden was made for the man God created.... Meaning Adam could not have been given charge over the whales.

OK I digress for this is not the needed subject for the OT

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #12 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 09:14:24 »
Quote
The KEY to understand this mystery is to rightly divide the complex nature of Jesus Christ just as the scriptures will do for us if we live only by them and teach according to them and not according to the creeds of men.

The KEY is faith.  If you believe you can rightly divide the complex nature of God, you have started in error before you ever get to the scripture.  There are mysteries we cannot understand as we inhabit our ugly bag of mostly water.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #13 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 09:26:38 »
Rella, I don't think you and I disagree. Red and I have some disagreement. I believe in the Trinity. I'm not sure how Red would characterize his belief. He seems to be asserting that God is one and not three different aspects or personalities as most do.

My only curiosity is that the OT including Deuteronomy refers to God as ONE, and the OT itself refers to God as a plural word Elohim. This is the main stumbling block to the Jews in accepting Christ, even though in their own Hebrew scriptures, Elohim is plural in the first sentence in the Old Testament.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 09:30:50 by Jaime »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #14 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 10:00:53 »
We often hear the phrase, "God, the three in one".  While I believe that is the truth, I believe that is the wrong way to think of it.; and I believe it is perhaps one reason why or how one can come to RB's view of the Trinity.  I have not seen that phrase, that expression, anywhere in the Bible.  That is an interpretation.  It comes, I think, from the typical [Greek?] way of depicting God, that is,  as some old grey haired man out there somewhere. But that is not the presentation given us in scripture.  Rather the view that is presented is that there are three distinct and separate beings referred to as the Father, the Son (formerly the Word) named Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and these three are God. God is not the description of a single being; rather God is the description of the creating, ruling Divinity.  The three, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, are the God.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 10:04:10 by 4WD »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #15 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 10:10:39 »
One disagreement of sorts Red. God was known as or spoken of as Elohim in Genesis in the Hebrew language of Moses, including Genesis 1:1. Elohim is a plural reference to the ONE God. It was not God’s name but a description. Yehovah or Jehovah is his name. Elohim may have been the best explanatory word for an inexplicable truth about a triune God. And even triune is probably not a good explanation. Man is also triune in that we are body, soul and spirit, yet one individual.

AND
Quote
Rella, I don't think you and I disagree. Red and I have some disagreement. I believe in the Trinity. I'm not sure how Red would characterize his belief. He seems to be asserting that God is one and not three different aspects or personalities as most do.

My only curiosity is that the OT including Deuteronomy refers to God as ONE, and the OT itself refers to God as a plural word Elohim
.


Jaime...

the OT including Deuteronomy refers to God as ONE, and the OT itself refers to God as a plural word Elohim

I will say again.... You are you and Mrs Jaime is herself. You each have a job to do in your marriage and distinct ones at that.
(I would love to see you manage to move a human being out of your body... rofl)  But God calls you one. Back to Genesis... the beginning again...Genesis 2:24
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.


God sees you as one. (That should be part of every marriage ceremony) yet you are two.

God is 3 and we see him as one.....  It is simple.

I know you are addressing Red but may I give you my take. I have read a lot on this. And your asssessment of Red is what I have observed in his beliefs. But the following is a simplified version of where I stand, as much for him as anyone.  Simply said....

We could take Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters leaving the Word/Jesus out of it.

God the Father and the Spirit of God the Father could have been the "US" that God was talking about.

So a plural is perfect in this case also.

Now...Triune man.

I have always been told we are spirits, we have a soul and live in a body.  Each has its own job....just as each in the  HolyTrinity does, but ours is very minor compared to theirs.

As to  soul and spirit...while the two words are often used interchangeably, the primary distinction between soul and spirit in man is that the soul is the animate life, or the origin of the senses, desires, affections, and appetites. The spirit is that part of us that connects, or refuses to connect, to God.

For our spirits to interact with the world, we need our body.

Many cannot comprehend, or choose not to know this about God and/or us.

For me... I accept on blind faith what the Holy Bible has said about the triune God we call Father, Son and Holy Spirit I do not try to work around it simply because I do not understand how it could be so. And I wont twist scriptures around to suit what I do and can understand. It IS what the meaning of is... is. I know if I go to my car and turn a key or press the start button the car generally will start... but I have no idea why.  ::shrug::


spirit-soul-body" border="0

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #16 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 10:20:27 »
Gen 1:26 is curious to me:

26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

US and OUR as in PLURAL!

Even the Hebrew word for God (Elohim)  is plural with the “im” suffix.

https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/1-26.htm
You're reading too much into pronouns.  The plurals are there simply as a matter of grammar, which demands that they match the casing of ELOHIM.

You can read into the plurality of ELOHIM, if you like.  But the pronouns mean nothing.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #17 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 10:21:14 »
Rella,

Jaime doesn't need to push a kid out of himself.  He gets man colds.  Those are much more painful.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #18 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 10:25:22 »
My mentioning what Deuteronomy stated was to highlight what the Jews believe about God, and that that is ironic given in the first sentence of the OT God is referred to as plural Elohim. I still say we are in agreement. I was not putting forth anything that disagreed with you. I DO agree with you. My way of arguing a point is to highlight how the other side may arrive at a line of thinking. This topic is a bone of contention between Jews and most Christians. I'm not sure how Messianic Jews view it, but I would think they differ greatly from Orthodox Jews.

Me speaking with my wife, a separate being in the room as us, is not the same as God speaking about himself as "us" in my opinion. BUT Moses as a man was writing about a concept about God probably even he did not grasp but used the best words he could. Language and translation of one language to another is tricky especially with an ethereal concept such as the Trinity. The Word BEING WITH God and BEING God at the same time helps and is true, but it IS an odd concept. It's like me saying I am my father's son, that is easily understood, but if I in the same sentence say, and I am my father, that could get me thrown in the nut house. It takes an extraordinary philosophical view to even express a concept such as the Trinity.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #19 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 10:26:58 »
You're reading too much into pronouns.  The plurals are there simply as a matter of grammar, which demands that they match the casing of ELOHIM.

You can read into the plurality of ELOHIM, if you like.  But the pronouns mean nothing.

Jarrod

The suffix of "im" in Elohim is not a pronoun, and in Hebrew, it DOES mean something.

The pronouns "our" and "us" could easily have been me and my especially if the Jews whole premise is that God is one. Commentaries state that the word is plural undoubtedly, but its use here is singular. (that doesn't help my question)

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.

« Last Edit: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 10:38:55 by Jaime »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #20 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 11:27:44 »
The suffix of "im" in Elohim is not a pronoun, and in Hebrew, it DOES mean something.

The pronouns "our" and "us" could easily have been me and my especially if the Jews whole premise is that God is one. Commentaries state that the word is plural undoubtedly, but its use here is singular. (that doesn't help my question)

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.

God IS one.

Just like The church

When Jesus said, “I will build my Church” in Matt. 16:18 He wasn’t talking about constructing a building. He was talking about creating a world wide body of believers.

Not many many individuals but we collectively or by ourselves are "the Church."

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #21 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 12:11:08 »
Rella, you DO realize we agree 100%?! I am not arguing with you.

Though I would say that terms like man and church have singular as well as plural meanings. The Hebrew word for man is ADAM. A singular man, and plural for all of man, as well as a person’s name. The singular for God in Hebrew is El not Elohim.

I am ALL about the Trinity as you are.
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 12:15:20 by Jaime »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #22 on: Thu Aug 26, 2021 - 12:44:47 »
Rella, you DO realize we agree 100%?! I am not arguing with you.

Though I would say that terms like man and church have singular as well as plural meanings. The Hebrew word for man is ADAM. A singular man, and plural for all of man, as well as a person’s name. The singular for God in Hebrew is El not Elohim.

I am ALL about the Trinity as you are.


Yes I do...

My fault for going on and on  ::frown:: ....  So sorry ~  It just drives me nuts when scriptures are turned around  ::crackup::

 Dodging those Delta bugs is messing with me .  rofl

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #23 on: Fri Aug 27, 2021 - 19:42:16 »
When Jesus prayed to the father. He was accessing the name of the Father. The spiritual power of the Father
Jesus on earth became like us. Limited in power.

He then was able to stand and deliver IN the name of the father on earth as it is in heaven. He stood on earth while being in a open heaven. That is in the POWER of the LORD, as the LORD.

When we read as we see a name. Like fire . We understand it gives out heat and if we get too close we know fire can burn. We associate fire with light, warmth and pain. Cleansing even.

Who is God to you? ​El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)
El Elyon (The Most High God)
Adonai (Lord, Master)
Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)
Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)
Jehovah Raah (The Lord My Shepherd)
Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)
Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There)
Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)
Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You)
El Olam (The Everlasting God)
Elohim (God)
Qanna (Jealous)
Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide)
Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace)
Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts)

Do we only understand God in the name with No experience ?
Like fire .....he emits shines who he is. IN MY NAME

I have MANIFESTED your name.

The name of fire would lack if there was no heat and light. Nearly useless to those.

When the names of the Lord are used in the Bible it was for a purpose. That his people would KNOW HIM.

Not as for example as the God of peace WITH NO EXPERIENCE OF WHAT THAT NAME MEANS.

And a knowledge of God as the God of peace. If not it all head knowledge.

John 14:7-9
New King James Version
The Father Revealed

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

My word has been with you for so long, and you havent known ME  . You have known about my name but you have really never known me.

Baptised IN the name of the Father AND the son  AND the Holy Spirit .

They released there spiritual gate of knowledge when they baptised . They blessed them with THEIR spiritual gate that was given to them and also released to them all that they had learnt by BEING with The Father, BEING  with the Son and BEING with the Holy Spirit.
They CONNECTED to the father in the spirit and then baptised his name....they then CONNECTED to the son in the spirit and baptised released his name ....then CONNECTED to the Holy Spirit and baptised his name.

O but isn’t the Lord doing all the work. Nope. You shall lay your hands upon the sick .

Matthew 28:19-20
New King James Version
19 Go [a]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

O it’s head knowledge about the word only. We find knowledge of our God in the word only. No we don’t. The word is the door that someone else walked through and wrote so we can follow.

The above they was Spiritually baptised in the NAME of the Father AND Son AND Holy Spirit then and then yes THEN they was TAUGHT

 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;

I struggle to explain things and in the explaining I will get things right and wrong . I hope you get what I am saying.













« Last Edit: Fri Aug 27, 2021 - 20:02:04 by Bemark »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #24 on: Fri Aug 27, 2021 - 19:57:09 »
How do we do this. We read all about our God who is one. In the Word and in prayer.

Haven’t you found at times in your life as you pray...sometime you use The Fathers name. Sometimes the sons, sometime the Holy Spirit?

I have and have heard many pray this way. Some identify with one part of the the Godhead more and some use all in a single prayer. Just talking to him , them, as one
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 27, 2021 - 20:09:43 by Bemark »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #25 on: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 07:04:31 »
When did Jesus become Gods son? Was it after he became mortal or was it always
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.


So the correct answer is "Always."

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #26 on: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 07:12:31 »
The singular for God in Hebrew is El not Elohim.
Yes and no. 

El is God, but is short for Elohah. That is the singular of Elohim.  Another singular is Elohai which is "my God" singular.

El by itself means the High or Strong one.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #27 on: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 07:23:41 »
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.


So the correct answer is "Always."

Ok, then I need ask this.

If Jesus was always the son of God.... then when did the trinity begin?

Unless of course you do not believe the biblical evidence for there being a trinity.

That would mean that God the father was in existence before the son.

We might say it was a duet with the Holy Spirit then... but did God beget the Word or did God create the word?

If beget then was there ever a Mrs. God?

Yes, I believe Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever, but until about 2000 plus years ago the term for Jesus as "son" did not appear. And it was not until Jesus' baptism that we heard God say... "This is my son in whom I am well pleased"

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #28 on: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 07:28:59 »
Ok, then I need ask this.

If Jesus was always the son of God.... then when did the trinity begin?
Unless of course you do not believe the biblical evidence for there being a trinity.
Yes I believe in the Trinity.  I just don't believe in "when." 

Eternity is outside of time so "when" becomes irrelevant.
Quote
If beget then was there ever a Mrs. God?
Yes.  Us. 

Revelation 19:9
Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are true words of God.”


Since eternity is outside of time .....  it does not matter if it has not happened yet in our timeframe.
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 07:32:15 by DaveW »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #29 on: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 12:34:59 »
God IS one.

Just like The church

When Jesus said, “I will build my Church” in Matt. 16:18 He wasn’t talking about constructing a building. He was talking about creating a world wide body of believers.

Not many many individuals but we collectively or by ourselves are "the Church."

Matthew 16:18 is also translated "I will build my COMMUNITY", which can also be understood to be a group of believers.  The group of believers is also referred to as 'the body of Christ', not necessarily the church.   

Bear in mind the body of believers weren't even called Christians until much later (Acts 11:16), so it isn't accurate to refer to them as the church insofar as interpretation of Matthew is concerned ... or any of the other gospels. 

We should bear in mind that the church wasn't even officially sanctioned/legalized/adopted by the Roman government until the year 310AD.

At that time Emperor Constantine allowed believers to form legally sanctioned groups called churches, to appoint administrators over its affairs (priests and bishops) AND TO HOLD REAL ESTATE.  Thus the term 'church' is more often employed as a legal entity not unlike corporations of our own time.  Indeed, the corporate structure today resembles in great measure that of the legally sanctioned religious community - the church.  Each has a board of directors (elders in churches), a CEO (priest or minister), a division supervisor (bishop) and a sales team (proselytizers).  One important difference is that while a corporations' product is taxed externally by the government a church internally taxes its members (tithe) who buy into its product (ceremony, membership and assurances of immortality). 

It has been argued that the term church refers to a single ethereal organization rather than a disorganized clutter of corrupt confused and divisive worldly religious groups.  Unfortunately such is not the case when believers assemble in their houses of prayer ON DAYS NOT SANCTIONED BY THE BIBLE (ie: sunday) to pay their religious taxe$ to their respective corporate managers (who typically mismanage those funds and sometimes abuse the children of their benefactors).

The argument as to what composes a true church is likewise muddied and obfuscated mostly by those who have no idea of the general theme of scripture (divine intent).  Instead these same mentally challenged individuals insist that ONLY THEIR GROUP/church is the one intended to receive the blessings of heaven.  Its rather laughable that when they insist upon the existence of an ethereal 'church', which is Biblically incorrect, they invariably fall back upon worldly standards to justify something they claim isn't worldly.  This is the epitome of religious confusion. These same poor souls never stop to consider that all these different religious groups, who also claim to be God's church, could all be mistaken.  They never admit the Bible says something else entirely because they've been programmed to parrot religious slogans and buzz words.  When the error is pointed out to them, they react with typical invective and insult, never out of a clear headed desire to glean the truth about what they believe or the group they think they belong to.

As a result the religious members of the plastic Christian church, which now bends every way imaginable so as to please the secular world, have no idea what they stand for, what the Bible means, or what the mind and heart of God really demands of any of us.  They are quite sure, however, that they are absolutely right even as their board of directors solemnly declare the Bible isn't a standard for anything more ethereal than a kid's comic book. 

Is it any wonder the church is Ichabod (1 Samuel 4:21) and that it is condemned by the Almighty? (1 Peter 4:17 & Revelation 18:4)

The answer to our modern conundrum is REPENTANCE, but such a topic is forbidden in the blind and lame church because the only true real message preached any more is happy talk to fill seats ON THE WRONG WORSHIP DAY.  That, my dear reader, is the truth of the matter.

It is OPINION, rather than truth, which lies at the heart of most of these discussions.  Opinion, if you will consult Genesis 3, was the first fruit of the forbidden tree.  If you eat of it you shall surely die.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...   
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 13:04:26 by Choir Loft »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #30 on: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 13:29:50 »
Yes I believe in the Trinity.  I just don't believe in "when." 

Eternity is outside of time so "when" becomes irrelevant. Yes.  Us. 

Revelation 19:9
Then he *said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he *said to me, “These are true words of God.”


Since eternity is outside of time .....  it does not matter if it has not happened yet in our timeframe.

Last statement first.  Who told you eternity was outside of time?   Chapter and verse, please. 

You will not find it in the Bible because the Bible says something else entirely.  The Hollywood concept of heaven vs. earth - of time vs. eternity is entirely WRONG.  According to the Bible, they are the SAME.   So too do certain mathematical expressions of quantum physics declare an odd sameness or varying expressions of reality.

The Bible speaks of 'the heavens'. 

Nehemiah says in chapter 9 verse 6 that God, "made the heavens."   The books of Exodus and Leviticus lay out the pattern and purpose of each of the heavens and St. Paul declares an experience he had in the heavens in 2 Corinthians 12:2.   Hollywood tells us there is one heaven.  Islam declares there are seven heavens.  How many heavens does the Bible declare God has made?  Do you know?

First statement last.

The oldest standard Biblical prayer is called THE SHEMA pronounced sh-MA.   Here it is in Hebrew and in English from Deuteronomy 6:4;

Shema Yisrael - Hear O Israel
Adonai Elohenu - The Lord our God
Adonai Echad - The Lord is ONE

The key word we need to examine is the last one, the word ECHAD

The Hebrew word ECHAD refers to a unity of separate parts. 

A good example for us today is the motto of the United States - e pluribus unum/one from many.  It signifies a unified whole composed of separate independent parts.   
For the USA this means fifty separate states unified under a single Federal government.   
For the SHEMA it refers to a unity of separate parts of God. 

The Hebrew word YACHID means an absolute one as in the number one.

Why did Moses give the SHEMA prayer as a unity of one (ECHAD) rather than an absolute one (YACHID)?

Centuries later Christian theologians suggested a trio of divine entities - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The great irony of the whole issue is that Jews refuse to acknowledge the unity spoken of in their most sacred prayer. 
If they did, they'd have to acknowledge Jesus (Y'shua as He was called in Hebrew) as the ha-mashiach (anointed One or messiah). 

Christians are simply confused on the issue and argue about it constantly. 

The irony is that neither group has any idea who its savior really is.

 ::frustrated::

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

« Last Edit: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 13:46:24 by Choir Loft »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #31 on: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 13:41:47 »
Last statement first.  Who told you eternity was outside of time?   Chapter and verse, please. 

You will not find it in the Bible because the Bible says something else entirely.  The Hollywood concept of heaven vs. earth - of time vs. eternity is entirely WRONG.  According to the Bible, they are the SAME.   So too do certain mathematical expressions of quantum physics declare an odd sameness or varying expressions of reality.

Genesis 1.5  By creating light and dark, day and night, He created Time. 

Isa 46.10 says He can see and declare the end from the beginning.  The sense in the Hebrew is he sees both simultaneously. That would put Him outside of time.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #32 on: Mon Aug 30, 2021 - 15:46:36 »
Matthew 16:18 is also translated "I will build my COMMUNITY", which can also be understood to be a group of believers.  The group of believers is also referred to as 'the body of Christ', not necessarily the church.   

Bear in mind the body of believers weren't even called Christians until much later (Acts 11:16), so it isn't accurate to refer to them as the church insofar as interpretation of Matthew is concerned ... or any of the other gospels. 

We should bear in mind that the church wasn't even officially sanctioned/legalized/adopted by the Roman government until the year 310AD.

At that time Emperor Constantine allowed believers to form legally sanctioned groups called churches, to appoint administrators over its affairs (priests and bishops) AND TO HOLD REAL ESTATE.  Thus the term 'church' is more often employed as a legal entity not unlike corporations of our own time.  Indeed, the corporate structure today resembles in great measure that of the legally sanctioned religious community - the church.  Each has a board of directors (elders in churches), a CEO (priest or minister), a division supervisor (bishop) and a sales team (proselytizers).  One important difference is that while a corporations' product is taxed externally by the government a church internally taxes its members (tithe) who buy into its product (ceremony, membership and assurances of immortality). 

It has been argued that the term church refers to a single ethereal organization rather than a disorganized clutter of corrupt confused and divisive worldly religious groups.  Unfortunately such is not the case when believers assemble in their houses of prayer ON DAYS NOT SANCTIONED BY THE BIBLE (ie: sunday) to pay their religious taxe$ to their respective corporate managers (who typically mismanage those funds and sometimes abuse the children of their benefactors).

The argument as to what composes a true church is likewise muddied and obfuscated mostly by those who have no idea of the general theme of scripture (divine intent).  Instead these same mentally challenged individuals insist that ONLY THEIR GROUP/church is the one intended to receive the blessings of heaven.  Its rather laughable that when they insist upon the existence of an ethereal 'church', which is Biblically incorrect, they invariably fall back upon worldly standards to justify something they claim isn't worldly.  This is the epitome of religious confusion. These same poor souls never stop to consider that all these different religious groups, who also claim to be God's church, could all be mistaken.  They never admit the Bible says something else entirely because they've been programmed to parrot religious slogans and buzz words.  When the error is pointed out to them, they react with typical invective and insult, never out of a clear headed desire to glean the truth about what they believe or the group they think they belong to.

As a result the religious members of the plastic Christian church, which now bends every way imaginable so as to please the secular world, have no idea what they stand for, what the Bible means, or what the mind and heart of God really demands of any of us.  They are quite sure, however, that they are absolutely right even as their board of directors solemnly declare the Bible isn't a standard for anything more ethereal than a kid's comic book. 

Is it any wonder the church is Ichabod (1 Samuel 4:21) and that it is condemned by the Almighty? (1 Peter 4:17 & Revelation 18:4)

The answer to our modern conundrum is REPENTANCE, but such a topic is forbidden in the blind and lame church because the only true real message preached any more is happy talk to fill seats ON THE WRONG WORSHIP DAY.  That, my dear reader, is the truth of the matter.

It is OPINION, rather than truth, which lies at the heart of most of these discussions.  Opinion, if you will consult Genesis 3, was the first fruit of the forbidden tree.  If you eat of it you shall surely die.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...   

Take it up with the translators.

Greek/English Interlinear says

I also now to you say that you are Peter and on this rock I will build My - church and [the] gates of hades not willprevailagainst it

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/16.htm

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #33 on: Tue Aug 31, 2021 - 04:15:42 »
Take it up with the translators.

Greek/English Interlinear says

I also now to you say that you are Peter and on this rock I will build My - church and [the] gates of hades will not prevailagainst it
If you haven't held it against the translators, you really ought to.

"Church" is an awful terrible no-good translation for "ekklesia."  It's so far off the mark we ought to be questioning whether the translators were actually seditious in using it.

Jarrod

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why? part 2 ~ conundrum~
« Reply #34 on: Tue Aug 31, 2021 - 04:55:32 »
Genesis 1.5  By creating light and dark, day and night, He created Time.
Dave, on this you are 100% correct~Does God need to divide time in order to keep track of it? Of course not, but we do! We need times to work and times to rest. The cadence of spring, summer, autumn, and winter offers healthy changes in temperature, scenery, and activity~in a dependable cycle over the years. Also, "our finite minds" relate better to the past and the future when we have definite markers of time~God in His infinite wisdom created time, seasons, etc. for us.
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 31, 2021 - 04:59:29 by RB »