Author Topic: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?  (Read 1274 times)

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Offline Rella

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #35 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 08:42:59 »
A good friend and seminarian (Western Theological in G.R. Michigan) said that to try to dig any deeper into the structure of the Trinity beyond "One God, three Persons" is to enter into one of the ancient heresies.

Why?

If the bible references the trinity why would that be a problem to delve into?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #36 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 10:03:46 »
Why?

If the bible references the trinity why would that be a problem to delve into?
There are many ancient heresies concerning the nature of the Trinity.  It was shown that every attempt to go past what is written or even explain WHY such and such is written ends up in one of those heresies. 

It is not a problem to show THAT there is a trinity.  BUT as to how it works, that is a different matter altogether.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #37 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 10:14:19 »
To me it's like trying to explain how to solve a rubics cube. it's much simpler just to SEE it done, and walk away. The trinity is like that. Heck I am still trying to figure out Jesus being 100% man and 100% God. That's like saying a glass full of water plus another glass full of water equals a single glass full of water. I just have to accept it. OR Jesus has a handy toggle switch between the two.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #37 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 10:14:19 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #38 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 10:29:27 »
No, we do NOT need to know anything about the workings of the godhead beyond what is already written in scripture.  What we DO need to know God has already included.

Perhaps. But the same could be said of anything of importance written in the Holy words.

It is written. ( How often have we read of Jesus saying that.) No need to know why? He did explain.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #38 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 10:29:27 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #39 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 12:52:32 »
A good friend and seminarian (Western Theological in G.R. Michigan) said that to try to dig any deeper into the structure of the Trinity beyond "One God, three Persons" is to enter into one of the ancient heresies.
"Three persons" is already well past what the Bible teaches, to be honest. 

Personally I dislike that terminology, because it's easily misunderstood.  English "persons" is a poor translation of Latin "personae," despite the obvious similarity in the words.


"In the name of ..." is often used, even in ancient times, to mean "in the authority of ..."

"Stop in the name of the law!"
Yes.  I don't think that changes the point.  Baptism is not "by the authorities of" but by a singular authority.

Jarrod

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #39 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 12:52:32 »



Offline Jaime

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #40 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 13:12:03 »
Is not God one as Deuteronomy 6:4-6 (the Shema) states? One God, three personaes. The authority of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit would technically be singular wouldn't it since God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are ONE and not three distinct Gods? I know sometimes Jews accuse Christians of being polytheistic, but that isn't conceptually correct even according to the Torah in Genesis 1:26. Even the Hebrew word Elohim has the plural suffix "im".
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 13:32:08 by Jaime »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #40 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 13:12:03 »

Offline RB

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #41 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 14:02:10 »
To me it's like trying to explain how to solve a rubics cube. it's much simpler just to SEE it done, and walk away. The trinity is like that. Heck I am still trying to figure out Jesus being 100% man and 100% God. That's like saying a glass full of water plus another glass full of water equals a single glass full of water. I just have to accept it. OR Jesus has a handy toggle switch between the two.
There's ONLY ONE Jaime! No one quite said it as he does.  ::smile:: one of my daughters who now has her Ph.D. in business figured it out at a young age, maybe at 8 years old or less. Not only figure it out but only took her a few seconds to do it.
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 14:04:23 by RB »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #42 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 14:08:17 »
I'm still trying to figure out the input button on my TV remote!  rofl

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #43 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 17:53:27 »
Is not God one as Deuteronomy 6:4-6 (the Shema) states? One God, three personaes. The authority of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit would technically be singular wouldn't it since God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are ONE and not three distinct Gods? I know sometimes Jews accuse Christians of being polytheistic, but that isn't conceptually correct even according to the Torah in Genesis 1:26. Even the Hebrew word Elohim has the plural suffix "im".
One God is clearly Scriptural.

But three persons?  that depends what you mean by persons.  I don't think too many people out there today are using it in a classical Latin sense, so...

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #43 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 17:53:27 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #44 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 18:41:20 »
One God is clearly Scriptural.

But three persons?  that depends what you mean by persons.  I don't think too many people out there today are using it in a classical Latin sense, so...
I don't know what the classical Latin sense of "persons"; but I am quite convinced that the three spiritual beings, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate and distinctly different beings.  And for what it is worth, I don't really understand what a spiritual being is; at least I couldn't give you a detailed description of a spiritual being.  But here also I am quite convinced of the existence of such.

Perhaps you could tell us about the classical Latin sense of the word. 

Offline Jaime

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #45 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 18:52:32 »
Jarrod, the three Personae I referred to is I believe three aspects of ONE God. Not three Gods
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 19:15:35 by Jaime »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #46 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 19:12:17 »
One God is clearly Scriptural.

But three persons?  that depends what you mean by persons.  I don't think too many people out there today are using it in a classical Latin sense, so...

How would you explain this scripture?

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (1 John 5:7 KJV... NKJ says Spirit.).

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #47 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 19:21:03 »
Anyone that says they completely understand the Trinity is a fool or a liar.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #48 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 20:08:38 »
Perhaps you could tell us about the classical Latin sense of the word.
It's more like "characters" or "actors" in modern English.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #49 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 20:09:19 »
Jarrod, the three Personae I referred to is I believe three aspects of ONE God. Not three Gods
What are aspects?  We've just replaced one ambiguous word with another here.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #50 on: Tue Aug 24, 2021 - 20:14:29 »
How would you explain this scripture?

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" (1 John 5:7 KJV... NKJ says Spirit.).
I would say that it's a sentence fragment, and its purpose is to underscore some other point as an appeal to authority.  Without that other point, it kind of lacks meaning.

FWIW, the larger points of the chapter are (a) obey Christ's commandments, and (b) this obedience is the evidence that one is born of God, as (c) Jesus also was born of God.

Jarrod

Offline Bemark

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #51 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 03:25:23 »
Have we missed the point. In what In my name means.

It’s not mike marry nor james
 
It’s who they are
They produce emit radiate spiritual energy. Life. For example. Jesus was the only one who experienced our flesh but over came all. He as God , and his flesh became sin . Defeated death and hell. Jesus is the one who knows us and intercedes for us before the father day and night

Who once being baptised in water and with the spirit , that came upon. Was driven into the wilderness by the spirit . Spent TIME with Satan and the wild beasts. Tempted. Overcame. Jesus I know Paul I know but who are you.

And came out with power and authority. Healing the sick and casting out devils.

Jesus our God in flesh .IN MY NAME YOU SHALL.

Some one is going to get this. They knew the disciples spent TIME WITH JESUS.

Time with Jesus leads to miracles signs and wonders. If you want this more around your life , then read about him and pray to HIM . Make him your lifestyle. Dominion over darkness . Satan and the wild beasts. Loving The Lord your God with all your heart soul strength and mind. Loving your neighbour as yourself. Spend time with Jesus. Forgiveness,  not becoming offended. If we are forgiven we must forgive. He teaches us this. THERE IS LIFE IN HIS WORDS. We are spirit beings that absorb spirit. We absorb who he is. We absorb his name . His nature. We become whom we look upon.

If you ask in my name etc. This is not ab rah car dab rah. Saying a name and think it’s going to happen. It’s spending time in his realm or essence of power. This is who he is...his flow of presence IS  his name....You find all the scripture relating to the son. You spend time praying to the son. You spend time with the son . Who was tempted in all and never sinned. Lord Jesus in you name please help me to overcome this evil that is within me , that and coming against me. Help me to endure as you did. That I would have endurance like yourself as you endured the cross despising the shame for the joy that was before you. Time with the son.

Jesus prayed to the father .....in the wee hours of the morning. He said I do only what I see my Father do in heaven......what is the will of God for you life . Spend time with the Father.

Yes it’s found in the word ........but When the word says Lord etc . What part,  of who he is , is he wanting to impart into you.

You may have found yourself praying to the father at times , then praying to the son , then HolySpirit.

You may have heard others do this . Favour even a part of the God head.

There is a reason why we are baptised into the name of the Father , and of the the son , and of the Holy Spirit. When you are look at the word.....what part of the God head is it? There is a purpose for each one in our life. We absorb the Father. We absorb the son, we absorb the Holy Spirit.

If the word relates to the Father. Pray to the father. Absorb Father God into your life

If the Word relates to the Son. Pray to the son . Absorb the Son God into your life

If The word relates to the Holy Spirit. Pray to the Holy Spirit . Absorb the Holy Spirit

Every Good gift comes down from the father of lights.

He sent his son , he sent his Holy Spirit.

« Last Edit: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 03:44:10 by Bemark »

Offline Bemark

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #52 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 03:52:01 »
It’s relationship with the Father

It’s relationship with the Son

It’s relationship with the Holy Spirit

In spirit and in word .

A 3 fold cord is not easily broken

Offline Bemark

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #53 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 04:10:04 »
John 17:6 NKJV

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Offline Bemark

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #54 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 04:15:35 »
Hebrews 1:3 NKJV

who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high


This is his name . Who he is .....Whom we must identify with as our Lord Jesus Christ .

Offline Jaime

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #55 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:07:06 »
Jarrod how would you describe the unexplainable Trinity? Also the 100% man plus 100% God  equals 100’% Jesus concept?

Offline DaveW

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #56 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:07:30 »
Anyone that says they completely understand the Trinity is a fool or a liar.
THIS.   ::amen!::

Offline DaveW

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #57 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:09:27 »
Jarrod, the three Personae I referred to is I believe three aspects of ONE God. Not three Gods
That sounds a lot like the ancient heresy of modalism.  One God that appears in 3 different modes. 
It is the error of the Oneness, Jesus Only crowd. 

But on the other side it is also easy to see Father Son and Spirit as 3 separate entities, which is tri-theism, also an ancient heresy.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:13:30 by DaveW »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #58 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:11:34 »
And probably anyone trying to explain it is a fool.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #59 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:13:14 »
Dave how would you explain one God yet the one God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In light of the Genesis 1 and John 1
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:17:10 by Jaime »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #60 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:16:00 »
Dave how would you explain one God yet the one God is Father, Son and Homy Spirit. In light of the Genesis 1 and John 1
I am not even going to try. 

BTW check your spelling on"Holy."   I think you put a lower case M in there which on my screen looks like r and n.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #61 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:19:04 »
I changed the spelling, yes that would be problematic.  ::smile:: So we all agree there is a “Trinity” for lack of a better term, but that explanations of the inexplicable are the problem?
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:21:50 by Jaime »

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #62 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:52:09 »
I changed the spelling, yes that would be problematic.  ::smile::
Thank you.

Quote
So we all agree there is a “Trinity” for lack of a better term, but that explanations of the inexplicable are the problem?
Yes.  Explaining the inexplicable is definitely a problem. But another problem is the need many feel to have a full explanation.  As Paul wrote in 1 Cor 13, "Now we see thru a glass dimly, but then face to face. "

As the old hymn said "we'll understand it better by and by."

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #63 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 05:57:04 »
It’s not about the trinity. We most of all tick that box . Maybe don’t understand God at all. It’s about understanding how can the 3 persons of the Godhead impact our lives. You have to seek him with all your heart soul strength and mind. Him. Who is him. Who shall go for us

Let us make man in our image.

It’s about relationship with the 3 of the God head . Then diving into there Devine being. The kingdom within and HE that comes upon?

But if you have never encountered him in spirit , then I get you haven’t a clue to what i am saying .

If we are still struggling with the concept of the trinty...... ?

Has not the Holy Spirit descended upon you and given you the first door into the kingdom of heaven?



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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #64 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 07:44:23 »
Anyone that says they completely understand the Trinity is a fool or a liar.

But that does not mean the Trinity is not real.

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #65 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 09:18:41 »
That sounds a lot like the ancient heresy of modalism.  One God that appears in 3 different modes. 
It is the error of the Oneness, Jesus Only crowd. 

But on the other side it is also easy to see Father Son and Spirit as 3 separate entities, which is tri-theism, also an ancient heresy.

That sounds a lot like the ancient heresy of modalism.  One God that appears in 3 different modes. 
It is the error of the Oneness, Jesus Only crowd. 

But on the other side it is also easy to see Father Son and Spirit as 3 separate entities, which is tri-theism, also an ancient heresy.

 ::headscratch::

You cannot comprehend God in three persons, blessed Trinity?  Is the bible true?

Can you comprehend that when you married your wife, each of you individually became one?

Mark 10:8  and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
*******************
1 John 5:7
For there are three that testify:

1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Do you believe Jesus is God?.... Do you believe that Jesus was the Word who spoke the creation into being? Such as
Jesus is the Word. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God " ( Jn. 1:1-3 )

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #66 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 10:08:09 »
BTW check your spelling on"Holy."   I think you put a lower case M in there which on my screen looks like r and n.
rofl rofl rofl

Thanks for the laugh!

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #67 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 10:17:29 »
::headscratch::
You cannot comprehend God in three persons, blessed Trinity?  Is the bible true?
Not sure what your confusion is. 

Of course I believe the bible and the doctrine of Trinity. (although its early descriptions in the creeds seemed engineered to off-put Jews who were familiar with Torah)

But the Trinity is NOT one god with 3 different hats that he switches back and forth (modalism); neither is it 3 gods that all work in agreement (trithiesm).

Quote
Do you believe Jesus is God?.... Do you believe that Jesus was the Word who spoke the creation into being? Such as
Jesus is the Word. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God " ( Jn. 1:1-3 )
Absolutely. 

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #68 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 10:45:48 »
Jarrod how would you describe the unexplainable Trinity?
By looking at mankind.  Man is made in the image of God; we model His nature.

1) A person has a mind - intelligence.  This seems to be the image of God given to us, the thing which other animals lack.

2) This intelligence requires some conduit to produce action in the body, and to articulate itself.

3) When this intelligence is articulated (e.g. by speech or writing), others can hear and see it.  Those who see or hear... learn - which is the same thing as a reproduction of the original intelligence.

These three items correspond to the trinity - they are in fact the definitions of Father, and Spirit, and Word:

Father (pater) as one who originates and transmits. 
Spirit (pneuma) as the breath which inspires the body and transmits the Word.
Word (logos) as the articulation of the mind which can be seen and heard and learned.

Jarrod

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Re: Trinity deniers . What did Jesus mean and why?
« Reply #69 on: Wed Aug 25, 2021 - 11:08:47 »
By looking at mankind.  Man is made in the image of God; we model His nature.

1) A person has a mind - intelligence.  This seems to be the image of God given to us, the thing which other animals lack.

2) This intelligence requires some conduit to produce action in the body, and to articulate itself.

3) When this intelligence is articulated (e.g. by speech or writing), others can hear and see it.  Those who see or hear... learn - which is the same thing as a reproduction of the original intelligence.

These three items correspond to the trinity - they are in fact the definitions of Father, and Spirit, and Word:

Father (pater) as one who originates and transmits. 
Spirit (pneuma) as the breath which inspires the body and transmits the Word.
Word (logos) as the articulation of the mind which can be seen and heard and learned.
That starts to border on gnosticism, another ancient heresy.

 

     
anything