Author Topic: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1  (Read 5751 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10478
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #245 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 11:42:31 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #246 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 12:05:26 »
Did God purposely will and plan even from before the beginning of creation in eternity past that millions of Jews would be murdered by the Nazis and many more millions would be treated horribly?  Did that happen exactly as He had preordained it to come to pass?  Or how about the even more millions who suffered unmercifully and died at the hands of Stalin or Mao Zedong or Pol Pot?


4WD: Did God purposely will and plan even from before the beginning of creation in eternity past that millions of Jews would be murdered by the Nazis and many more millions would be treated horribly?

Why, do you find it hard to believe that? Do you think that it was evil for God to do that? Or do you think that was unrighteous for God to do that? How much do you know of what is righteousness, as pertaining of God?

Did God not destroyed the whole of mankind, saved the family of eight of Noah, in Noah's time? Do you want more similar biblical events?

4WD: Did that happen exactly as He had preordained it to come to pass?

Why, do you find it hard to believe that? Would you say that it could had happened differently?

4WD: Or how about the even more millions who suffered unmercifully and died at the hands of Stalin or Mao Zedong or Pol Pot?

How about the many who died at the battles and wars spoken in scriptures?

Do you think that such things just happen out of the blue or randomly happen before an omniscient and sovereign God who created all?

All I can say is that I truly do pity you with your terrible, awful, abhorrent, horrifying, disturbing, distasteful, heretical, hideous, obnoxious view of God.  Did I get enough adjectives in there to really let you know what I think of your view of God.

Of course that is all you can say.

More adjectives? I don't know if you got enough there sir. That's you, not me. I guess more will satisfy you even more.

Well you forgot to say your favorite adjective, "irrational". But perhaps, you didn't because of:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/trying-the-spirits-whether-they-are-of-god~1st-john-41/msg1055159644/#msg1055159644

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1264
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #247 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 12:39:21 »
 author=RB link=topic=105627.msg1055159696#msg1055159696 date=1585558501]

Quote
What must a man do in order to be born again?

Believe in the Word of God which became Flesh.

Quote
What part of man is it that does what a man must do in order to be born again?

Mind.

Quote
If a man must believe to be born again, is it his flesh or his spirit that must believe (John 3:6)?

Man is not spirit, but flesh. Man's mind directs his body. A man believes with his mind, which brings about a change in his actions. Jesus said ANY man who comes to Him must deny himself. Not his body, but his mind. It is from within the mind, that defilement of men comes from. It is with the mind that a man either believes or doesn't believe. It is in the mind where the spirit of this world, or the Spirit of the Christ exists. Jesus said HIS WORDS are His Spirit. If I then reject all the other religious voices out there, and place my trust in the Word's of the Christ, "Every Word", that is what it means to be "born again" of the Spirit.


Quote
If his flesh must believe, how many will be born again (John 1:13; 5:40; Romans 8:7-9; 7:5; 9:16)?

This question is stupid. The flesh can do nothing without the mind.

John. 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Rom. 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Law of sin = death)


Quote
If his spirit believes, is he not already born again and led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14-16; Galatians 4:6)?

Man is not spirit. He is flesh and blood. The question is again, stupid. If a man believes in his mind, Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God, and "lives by them" this man is truly born again. He was a "Child of Disobedience", but now he "obeys from the mind the Word's of the Christ given to them".

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the (Minds of the)  children of disobedience:

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart (mind) that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Quote
Can you describe with scriptural proof God’s work before regeneration to get man’s flesh to believe?

The Flesh can do nothing without the mind. Can a brain dead person, who is still breathing, or even a sleeping person sin? Or obey?

Jesus said we know if a man is His or not by their fruits, not their words. If they say they believe, but are not a "Doer" of His Word's, then that man is a liar. At least according to Scriptures.

There is much disagreement as to whether God "makes" a man turn to HIM in obedience, or if God places before the man a choice, His Words, VS. the words of other religious voices, and allows men to make the choice. But either way, the "regenerate mind" Loves God and strives against sin by Keeping His Commandments.

Quote
If a man must believe to be born again, as one requirement, is it his natural or spiritual man with faith (Ist Corinthians 15:45-49)?

Well there is no "IF" in the requirement to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We must deny ourselves. The question becomes, what spirit do we follow? The spirit of the world which can not accept the truth of God, or the Word of the Christ that HE says are Spirit?

Quote
If his natural man must believe, how many will be born again (Ist Corinthians 2:14-15; Ephesians 2:3)?

If his spiritual man believes, is he not already born again with a new nature (Ist Corinthians 2:16; Titus 3:3-5)?

Again, man is not spiritual, he is flesh and blood. He either walks in, or as Jesus said "Lives by" the Word of God, or he walks in, or lives by, the religious doctrines and traditions of men. The first is walking in the Spirit, the latter is walking in the flesh.

Quote
If a man must believe to be born again as one condition, is it his old or new man with faith (Colossians 3:9-11; Ephesians 4:17-24)?

Faith is simply belief. Works follow. If I say I believe copperheads can kill me, but I play with them, or let my kids play with them, them by my "works" I show that I don't really believe what I say. If I say I believe copperheads can kill me, and you see me running away from one screaming like a girl, then by my "works" there is no doubt I really believe what I say.

It is the same with religious men. If they say they are a "new man", no longer a "Child of disobedience", but renewed in the spirit of their mind, "born again" but they continue to live in iniquity, or disobedience to God, then by their "works" we know that they really don't believe what they are saying. As it is written.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Old man = Child of disobedience. New man = Child of obedience.

Quote
If his old man must believe, how many will be born again by will and works of the old man?

Before the "old man" can believe, he must first be shown something to believe, in the Scriptures case, this would be the Word of God. And who is it that created this "Word"? Not the old man, he had absolutely nothing to do with the creation of the Word of God. The God of the Bible made the Word, and gives it to man. It is in every motel, every store, on the internet. There is not a man alive today who doesn't have access to the Word of God.

Your question is stupid again. "how many will be born again by will and works of the old man". The answer is no one.

Quote
If his new man believes, is he not already a new creation in Christ Jesus to have this man?

Well, the demons also "believe" and they are not a "new creation" in Christ Jesus. I think for the "new man" to be a "new creation" in Christ Jesus, he must be a "doer" of the Christ's instruction in Righteousness. AS Paul said;

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin (disobedience) unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Quote
In order to be born again, must a man exercise his will as part of believing unto faith (Revelation 22:17)?

"Today, if you hear HIS Voice, Harden not your hearts".

 Many deceivers in this world preach that God makes a person either harden, or not harden their hearts, when they hear His voice, based on nothing the man does.. Then for those who He withholds the power to humble themselves, HE tortures them for eternity, while those HE makes humble themselves, He gives them life for ever in paradise.

This is another god they worship, not the God of the Bible.

Quote
If a man must exercise his will to believe, as you say, why did Paul preclude man’s will (Romans 9:16)? Do you know something that Paul missed?

No, Paul believed everything The Word of God which became flesh says. You are twisting this verse to destroy the foundation God had already laid, and Paul furthered.

Rom. 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (that means no Red)

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It's not my program Red, not my Mercy. God will have Mercy on who HE will have Mercy. And where shall I go to find out who HE will have Mercy on? You, Jimmy Swaggart? Benny Hinn? Calvin?

Or should I hear and believe what the Word of God says?

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Duet. 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. 11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

Ps. 13:5 But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.

Ps. 62:11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God. 12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Shall I not trust Him when HE tells me who HE will show Mercy and who HE will not?


Quote
If a man must exercise his will, his free will in your thinking, is it the will of the flesh or of man?

Man is flesh. Stupid question. It should be, "is it within the power of men to "yield himself to God", or are we robots who God toys with by giving us instructions that we are not capable of following, then dropping us in a Lake of Fire when we don't follow them.


Quote
If it is the will of the flesh, how many will be born again, since John condemned it (John 1:13)? Do you have insight that John did not have?

Your evil representation of John doesn't destroy the rest of the Bible Red. As even a child can see when he reads the verse you referenced.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Your preaching that God withheld them from receiving the Word of God based on nothing they did is an insidious deception. Have you no shame?

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The receiving/believing came first. Your religion which preaches that men have no choice in believing or not believing, is a popular teaching among the White Washed Walls of our time, but is a deception just the same.

I'll finish in another post.


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #247 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 12:39:21 »

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1264
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #248 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 12:52:40 »
 author=RB link=topic=105627.msg1055159696#msg1055159696 date=1585558501] 


Quote
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Yes, for those who believe HIS Word, "gave he power to become the sons of God". Those who didn't believe the Word of God which became Flesh, HE did not give power to "become" sons of God.

So this "power" to "BECOME" the Son's of God, did not come from man, nor the will of man, but of God. But the power to believe in Him first, has been given to all the world. As HE said;

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, (Not just you and those who follow your religion) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ("not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God")

Quote
If it is the will of man, how many will be born again, since John condemned that also (John 1:13)?

John didn't condemn men who "yield themselves to God". You do, but God never did.

Quote
"What does quickened mean?'~ If quickened means to make alive, how much can a dead man assist in his own coming to life? If quickened means to make alive, how will you influence the dead man to assist his coming to life? If quickened means resurrection from death, how much will you assist with bodily resurrection? If you deny man is dead and must be quickened, who first taught such (Genesis 3:4; Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 2:13)?

You believe this way because you don't "live by" Every Word of God. You have exalted yourself as a JUDGE of God's Word, not a believer/doer. It's really very simple for those who believe what is written. Peter spells it out for you.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Your religion which preaches God must first make me believe HIM, based on nothing I have chosen or done, then Make me obey HIM, based on nothing I chose, or do, before HE then gives me HIS Spirit of Truth is false Red. It's your religion, not the Gospel of Christ.

Quote
"What does regenerate mean?"~What does born again mean? Did you generate yourself? Did you assist in your generation in any way? How about regeneration?

The Jesus of the Bible answers your question.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the (religions of the) world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So yes Red, according to the Christ of the Bible, I have a part to play in my regeneration. I can not regenerate myself, but Jesus HIMSELF tells me how HIS process works. You don't believe these Word's, but that is not unusual, the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's Time didn't believe HIS Word's either.

Quote
Since you teach certain works/conditions for regeneration,

No Red, I am not the originator of this teaching. This foundation has been laid from the foundation of the world. As Paul teaches.

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

You religion which preaches we have no part in this Gospel is an insidious lie.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

But you preach just the opposite of Paul. You preach that God makes a person "do evil" or "worketh good" and that man has no free will to choose one over the other.
 
Quote
do you know it requires resurrection power (Ephesians 1:19-20)? Or, was Paul wrong? If being born again is not by the will of the flesh (John 1:13), then what will is it by (John 3:8)? Since God chose the concept of birth for regeneration, how much did you influence your first birth?

Power to "Become" a child of God that God gives to those who "believe Him". Paul is right.

But when does the Word of God come to folks? Do I have any control over the religion I was born into? The family I was born into? Did Abraham have any control over the religion he was born into?

Of course not. But God called him when he was 75 years old. And it is written "Abram believed God, and it was accounted unto him as righteousness". And he "became" a Son of God, and given a different name, Abraham, the New Man at age 99. 24 years to "become a New Man"  But modern evil religions preaches that Abraham didn't have a choice not to believe. That God blessed Abraham because he obeyed because God made him believe, and made him obey.

So then you must reject volumes of scriptures, which is the reason why I know your religion is a deception, the least of which is this one.

"Today, if you hear HIS Voice, (like Abram at 75 years old) harden not your hearts"

Your preaching that this verse is a deception, a lie, because in your religion men have no say, no choice, no part in anything we do, is just horrible Red, and not Biblical in the least. Your interpretation of two or three verses in the New Testament, doesn't destroy the entire Bible.

Quote
If God makes seeing eyes and hearing ears, why do most not see or hear (Proverbs 20:12; John 3:3; 8:43,47)?

God answers your question.

Is. 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Thes. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now you preach that they couldn't "Believe" unless God first made them believe. So the god you worship gave strong delusions on men because they didn't believe a truth that this same god withheld from them.

This god doesn't exist Red.

Quote
If man must exercise his will to be born again, is it the will of the flesh or the spirit (John 1:13; 3:6)?

Men have been given the power to believe or not believe when they "hear HIS Voice". What happens to them is determined by this choice. As it is written, to those who believe, God gives them power to "become" a Son of God. To those who "harden their hearts" God gives a delusion. At least according to the God of the Bible.

Quote
Does God need permission to begin work on a man’s heart, or does He interfere and change it?

In your religion, does God "interface" with every man's heart? Or those who "Yield themselves" to Him?

Quote
What gloriously happens to the sinner’s will after he is born again, since He already had a will to believe on Jesus Christ to be born again before He was? Which comes first in God’s written description of salvation, man’s will or God’s will (Philippians  2:12-13)? If the Spirit gives the new birth like the wind blows, how much can any man influence the Spirit (John 3:8)?

These are just a few questions that could be asked. But like any lawyer worth his salt, you never ask a question not knowing the answer.

The very worse kind of deception in this world is religious men believing they are already saved, already resurrected and already a "Son of God, when they are not.

Paul warns of this over and over.

Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Cor. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.




Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #248 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 12:52:40 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10478
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #249 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 13:36:15 »
Of course that is all you can say.
If someone breaks into your house while you are away and kills everyone there and steals most of what you have, I must conclude from what you have said that you think that would be predestined by God.  So then, my question to you is if they caught the one who did that, given that He did exactly what God caused him to do, how could you possibly bring him to trial, convict and sentence him?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #249 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 13:36:15 »



Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #250 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 13:58:11 »
If someone breaks into your house while you are away and kills everyone there and steals most of what you have, I must conclude from what you have said that you think that would be predestined by God.  So then, my question to you is if they caught the one who did that, given that He did exactly what God caused him to do, how could you possibly bring him to trial, convict and sentence him?

What God have preordained is the allowing of that someone to break into my house while I am away, and kill everyone there and steals most of what I have.

To your question, who are they who caught the murderer and thief? Are you referring to the police? Then the criminal would be tried according to the law of the land.

You seem to imply that God caused the man to kill and steal, and then, condemn the man after. You can't believe that God does that, right? Is that what you are trying to tell me by your question?
   



Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #250 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 13:58:11 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10478
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #251 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 15:29:25 »
You seem to imply that God caused the man to kill and steal
Yeah, that is what preordain means.

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #252 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 16:08:54 »
Quote from:
You seem to imply that God caused the man to kill and steal
Yeah, that is what preordain means.

So, if that is what preordain means, what is your issue with that? Are you by that, saying that God would then be evil?

How about this part of my statement "and then, condemn the man after.", are you implying that if God condemns the man for what He caused him to do, that God is evil or unrighteous?

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10478
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #253 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 18:17:59 »
are you implying that if God condemns the man for what He caused him to do
I am not implying anything.  You are the one that says that God causes evil to happen.

Now what I am saying, not implying, is that God wouldn't ever preordain, cause, predestine anyone to commit evil.  That is impossible with God.  And the fact that you apparently don't know that tells us just about all we need to know about your view and knowledge of God.

And with that I am done interchanging with you on this topic and hopefully any other topic.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #253 on: Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 18:17:59 »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #254 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 01:24:33 »
Quote from: Michael
are you implying that if God condemns the man for what He caused him to do
I am not implying anything.  You are the one that says that God causes evil to happen.

Now what I am saying, not implying, is that God wouldn't ever preordain, cause, predestine anyone to commit evil.  That is impossible with God.  And the fact that you apparently don't know that tells us just about all we need to know about your view and knowledge of God.

And with that I am done interchanging with you on this topic and hopefully any other topic.

And I am not at all saying that God cause evil.

You say here that God wouldn't ever preordain, cause, predestine anyone to commit evil. Now, it is clear what you are saying by the example you gave me. You actually think, by your example, that my belief would have God predestine the man to commit evil. And you refuse to understand what I said, that which God preordains there, that is, allowing the man to break into my house while I am away, and kill everyone there and steals most of what I have. It is the man who decided to do the deed, not God. For God is absolutely not evil. 

I suggest that you read your Bible again, that you may be reminded of what God had sovereignly done, including those which, in many readers' mind, are evil things, but are not. God caused the creation of Lucifer and the other angels who later had fallen with Lucifer, the creation of Eve who sinned together with the first created man Adam, the killing of all of mankind except Noah's family of 8, etc.. Yes, He had caused all that. All that, to the many, is seen and judged as evil things. But Jesus said that God is good, and in fact said "there is none good but one, that is, God". So, whatever you read in scriptures that God had done, not even one of those is evil, but all are good. Unless of course, if you insist to judge otherwise and render scriptures as lies. All evil things, whether you know it or not, whether you se it or not, whether you judge it to be evil or not, were decided and done either by the devil and by the man. God, in His sovereign will, wisdom, and plan, allowed for that, in bringing about His purpose, for His pleasure, and glory. 

That also, after having been saved by God, you may not be puffed up by your saved status, together with whatever God-given human intelligence you have, and forget who we are, that is, man, a created being by God. Remember that God had made from one man, all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth, and God had determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, and that in Him we live, and move, and have our being. He is the Sovereign Lord.

What if God kills and destroy all of mankind now, what is that to you? What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." He had in time past done that already, when He destroyed all mankind, saved only Noah and 7 others of his family. But not one here seems to say that God was unjust by that.
 
I understand you for deciding to stop interchanging with me at this point. For you always do that, but not if you still have some refutation to give.

It's always helpful to share some wise words from scriptures:

Proverbs 1:5 Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance,

2 Timothy 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

BTR

  • Guest
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #255 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 02:35:54 »
Quote GB;"The very worse kind of deception in this world is religious men believing they are already saved, already resurrected and already a "Son of God, when they are not."

made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! -Eph. 2:5

Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. -1Jhn.4:17

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. -Gal.3:26

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. -Rom. 8:14


Quote;"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Walk by the Spirit of God or practice the levitical laws?


Quote;"1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

"And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."


You do realize that God has made many commandments, not just ten?
Just because the Bible uses the word commandments doesn't mean written laws in every place its used. Works doesn't mean what you think it means every time its used either.
Jesus also says speaking Gods words is works. Studying God words is also called a work, 'he is a doer of the work'.

Quote;"The spirit of the world which can not accept the truth of God, or the Word of the Christ that HE says are Spirit?"

Christ has no word of his own, he spoke Gods word. Christ or Messiah means anointed, one anointed by God.

"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. -Jhn.12:49


I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers.

I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
-Deu.18:18



Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7535
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #256 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 03:42:25 »
Quote GB;"The very worse kind of deception in this world is religious men believing they are already saved, already resurrected and already a "Son of God, when they are not."

made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! -Eph. 2:5

Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. -1Jhn.4:17

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. -Gal.3:26

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. -Rom. 8:14


Quote;"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Walk by the Spirit of God or practice the levitical laws?


Quote;"1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

"And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."


You do realize that God has made many commandments, not just ten?
Just because the Bible uses the word commandments doesn't mean written laws in every place its used. Works doesn't mean what you think it means every time its used either.
Jesus also says speaking Gods words is works. Studying God words is also called a work, 'he is a doer of the work'.

Quote;"The spirit of the world which can not accept the truth of God, or the Word of the Christ that HE says are Spirit?"

Christ has no word of his own, he spoke Gods word. Christ or Messiah means anointed, one anointed by God.

"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. -Jhn.12:49


I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers.

I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
-Deu.18:18
Okay...what's your purpose in posting this? This post does not make very much sense, just one that has turned aside unto "vain jangling”~1st Timothy 1:6

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7535
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #257 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 04:03:31 »
Believe in the Word of God which became Flesh.
Your answer to this question:
Quote from: RB Reply #236 on: Yesterday at 03:55:01
What must a man do in order to be born again?
A couple of thoughts: to be saved from sin and condemnation is not by our faith or obedience but by Jesus Christ's alone. Our faith and our baptism into Jesus' faith/teachings/religion do indeed bring practical salvation of true knowledge and understanding (per Jesus from Mark 16:16) but no more than that! The gospel of Jesus Christ exalts him ALONE as the one that lived in perfect obedience to the law of God, by faith as the Son of man, and, as a representative of God' elect and them members of his body from conception to his death and his resurrection from the dead to God's right hand of power~or, the highest exalted position one can be exalted to. Romans 4 to Romans 8; Galatians 2:16-5:4 etc. etc. What can be said of Jesus Christ, as the Son of man, can be said of each one of God's elect before the law of God. That's one thought. My second one on this point is this:

Does this mean that you are not a child of God~since you reject the doctrine of Jesus is not only the Son of man but the only begotten Son of God THUS, making him equal to God in his Divinity as being ONE with him in his being as God in the beginning? You said:
Quote
Believe in the Word of God which became Flesh.
According to John the Word of God, WAS God! and the Word was flesh~THUS God was manifested in human flesh per John 1:14, 1st TImomthy 3:16 and many more scriptures could be added! You reject Jesus being a complex person~100% Man and 100% God and these two natures NEVER interacted or were reciprocal, with each other but were always separated within HIM from conception to death of the cross. It is called the mystery of godliness:
Quote from: Paul
1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Again:
Quote from: The angel of the LORD
Matthew 1:23~"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
So, GB, my question to you is this: "do you truly believe that the Word which was God became flesh and that Jesus was TRULY God manifest in human flesh~OR, so you will not dance around my question~did God live in this world in human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ his only begotten God? If you answer no, then are you a child of God based own your confession?

I'll keep coming back to your long two posts as time permits which I should have much more today.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 04:36:33 by RB »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10478
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #258 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 05:20:34 »
The gospel of Jesus Christ exalts him ALONE as the one that lived in perfect obedience to the law of God, by faith as the Son of man
Please, RB, if you would, explain what "faith as the Son of man" even means. Or at least what it means to you.

I would really appreciate it if RB, and only RB, addresses my request here.

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10478
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #259 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 05:28:03 »
You reject Jesus being a complex person~100% Man and 100% God and these two natures NEVER interacted or were reciprocal, with each other but were always separated within HIM from conception to death of the cross. It is called the mystery of godliness:
And as a second question, RB; What do you mean when you say "these two natures NEVER interacted"?

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7535
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #260 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 06:15:26 »
Mind.

Man is not spirit, but flesh. Man's mind directs his body. A man believes with his mind, which brings about a change in his actions. Jesus said ANY man who comes to Him must deny himself. Not his body, but his mind. It is from within the mind, that defilement of men comes from. It is with the mind that a man either believes or doesn't believe. It is in the mind where the spirit of this world, or the Spirit of the Christ exists. Jesus said HIS WORDS are His Spirit. If I then reject all the other religious voices out there, and place my trust in the Word's of the Christ, "Every Word", that is what it means to be "born again" of the Spirit.


This question is stupid. The flesh can do nothing without the mind.

John. 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Rom. 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Law of sin = death)
This is your answer to my questions:
Quote from: RB Reply #236 on: Yesterday at 03:55:01
What part of man is it that does what a man must do in order to be born again? If a man must believe to be born again, is it his flesh or his spirit that must believe (John 3:6)? If his flesh must believe, how many will be born again (John 1:13; 5:40; Romans 8:7-9; 7:5; 9:16)? If his spirit believes, is he not already born again and led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14-16; Galatians 4:6)?
By flesh and the spirit I mean nothing more in this post than what the scriptures teach about each.

"The flesh"~as it is used in John 3 and Romans 8 meaning man in his natural state from conception, or from the generation and image of the first Adam, which sinned and lost God's image of true spiritual knowledge, wisdom, and true holiness/righteousness.

"By spirit"~, as it is used in John 3 and Romans 7 and 8, I mean nothing more, than the new man that is created after the image of Jesus Christ, in true spiritual knowledge, wisdom and true holiness. Consider the sense of each here:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 3:6~"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Also:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 8:5-9~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
One more:
Quote from: Paul
Romans 7:18-25~"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
The spirit in John 3:6 is the SPIRITUAL MAN, the NEW MAN, that loves, delights in the law of God. We also have the OLD MAN, with us that also has mind which is CORRUPT/EVIL and cannot, nor desires to submit to the word of God.

So, GB your post that said:
Quote

Man is not spirit, but flesh. Man's mind directs his body. A man believes with his mind, which brings about a change in his actions. Jesus said ANY man who comes to Him must deny himself. Not his body, but his mind. It is from within the mind, that defilement of men comes from. It is with the mind that a man either believes or doesn't believe. It is in the mind where the spirit of this world, or the Spirit of the Christ exists. Jesus said HIS WORDS are His Spirit. If I then reject all the other religious voices out there, and place my trust in the Word's of the Christ, "Every Word", that is what it means to be "born again" of the Spirit.


This question is stupid.
Man's mind direct his body, well that is true, but you failed to recognize, or are able to see that there are TWO men with each having their own mind~old man Adam and the new man was is created after Jesus' image, which is the express image of God Himself.

So, my question is far from being stupid, but is very biblical and if answered according to the word of God find men like you in serious error!
Quote from: RB Reply #236 on: Yesterday at 03:55:01
What part of man is it that does what a man must do in order to be born again? If a man must believe to be born again, is it his flesh or his spirit that must believe (John 3:6)? If his flesh must believe, how many will be born again (John 1:13; 5:40; Romans 8:7-9; 7:5; 9:16)? If his spirit believes, is he not already born again and led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14-16; Galatians 4:6)?
NONE would ever be born again!

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7535
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #261 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 06:18:07 »
Please, RB, if you would, explain what "faith as the Son of man" even means. Or at least what it means to you.

I would really appreciate it if RB, and only RB, addresses my request here.
Brother, I will later for you since I believe you ask in all sincerity.

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7535
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #262 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 09:14:03 »
The Flesh can do nothing without the mind. Can a brain dead person, who is still breathing, or even a sleeping person sin? Or obey?

Jesus said we know if a man is His or not by their fruits, not their words. If they say they believe, but are not a "Doer" of His Word's, then that man is a liar. At least according to Scriptures.

There is much disagreement as to whether God "makes" a man turn to HIM in obedience, or if God places before the man a choice, His Words, VS. the words of other religious voices, and allows men to make the choice. But either way, the "regenerate mind" Loves God and strives against sin by Keeping His Commandments.

Above is your response to this question from me:
Quote from: RB Reply #236 on: Yesterday at 03:55:01
Can you describe with scriptural proof God’s work before regeneration to get man’s flesh to believe?
I'm asking about the biblical use of the phrase~flesh from such scriptures as John 3:6; Romans 8; this body of sin and death from Romans 7. Which as I said above~ the flesh has a mind just as the spirit of the new man does.  So by you saying the mind does not act separately from the body, it truly does not address my point. I asked:
Quote from: RB Reply #236 on: Yesterday at 03:55:01
Can you describe with scriptural proof God’s work before regeneration to get man’s flesh to believe?
Instead of answering my question, you begin to explain that if one believes, then they will be a doer of the word and not a hearer only~which is totally a different subject, which we agree with! You said:
Quote from: GB on: Yesterday at 12:39:21
But either way, the "regenerate mind" Loves God and strives against sin by Keeping His Commandments.
GB, that's EXACTLY what we are saying~yet man still in the flesh is at enmity against God, he is not subject to the law of God, and NEITHER CAN BE, until he is regenerated and has the mind of Christ in his inward new man.

So, you still have not answered the question above and truly cannot with the testimony of the scripture, UNLESS, you admit that the flesh has NO part in being saved from sin and condemnation. We are born of the Spirit of God being the ONLY active person in the process of the new birth of a sinner.

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1264
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #263 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 09:34:36 »
 author=RB link=topic=105627.msg1055159792#msg1055159792 date=1585645411]

Quote
Your answer to this question: A couple of thoughts: to be saved from sin and condemnation is not by our faith or obedience but by Jesus Christ's alone. Our faith and our baptism into Jesus' faith/teachings/religion do indeed bring practical salvation of true knowledge and understanding (per Jesus from Mark 16:16) but no more than that!

 Many are called. "Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"

God already knew Abram, just as HE already knows everyone. why??? How??? Because HE sees the end from the beginning. He knew what Abram would do because in God's Realm Abram already made his choice.

"So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him"

God didn't make Abram follow His instruction, but God knew HE would.

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

How did HE know what had not yet happened? Because God sees the end of Abraham from the beginning of Abraham. Not that God chose Abram based on nothing he did, because God saw everything Abram did, from birth to death, just as HE saw everything Sodom did from birth to death.

And God blessed him "BECAUSE" he obeyed as HE says. God "knew he would" from the foundation of the world, because God already saw him obey. That is why HE chose him from the foundation of the world. Not because God made him obey, but saw the choice Abram would make.

Quote
Does this mean that you are not a child of God~since you reject the doctrine of Jesus is not only the Son of man but the only begotten Son of God

I don't reject the doctrine of Jesus Christ. At least the Christ of the Bible. I reject the doctrines and religious traditions you espouse, which is not the doctrine of Christ, but your own.


Quote
THUS, making him equal to God in his Divinity as being ONE with him in his being as God in the beginning? You said:According to John the Word of God, WAS God! and the Word was flesh~THUS God was manifested in human flesh per John 1:14, 1st TImomthy 3:16 and many more scriptures could be added! You reject Jesus being a complex person~100% Man and 100% God and these two natures NEVER interacted or were reciprocal, with each other but were always separated within HIM from conception to death of the cross.

I reject you, and Calvin's, and the Popes religion, not the Gospel of Christ.

I find your religion most hypocritical. You claim the man Jesus was 100% God, yet you refuse to walk in the Commandments Jesus, as God, created. You call them a "burdensome Yoke", and "Beggarly Elements" if one "yields himself" to this same God and follows HIS instruction regarding HIS commandments.

So it seems Jesus is 100% God when HE can benefit you, save you, based on no choice you make, but not a Deity and not to be trusted, when this same God gives you instructions contrary to the religious traditions and doctrines of man. Jesus called those who did the same in His time "Hypocrites who honor Him with their lips".

Quote
It is called the mystery of godliness:Again:So, GB, my question to you is this: "do you truly believe that the Word which was God became flesh and that Jesus was TRULY God manifest in human flesh~OR, so you will not dance around my question~did God live in this world in human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ his only begotten God? If you answer no, then are you a child of God based own your confession?

I believe what is written. Jesus the man never prayed to HIMSELF even once. He didn't do HIS own will, HE didn't speak HIS own Words.

He prayed to HIS Father and my Father, HIS God and my God. So your preaching that when HE was nursing and could not even walk, HE was 100% God, may sound good to you. But God was still talking to Zechariahs while Jesus was still in the Womb. He was truly the Son of God, but did not come to earth as 100% God. At least not the Christ of the Bible.

Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (because of this) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

He was truly the Word who became Flesh in all things as His Brethren. God's Spirit was in Him, as it was Isaiah, only from Birth. But He was not 100% God while He walked the earth. At least not the Jesus of the Bible.

But you can't accept this Jesus because HE obeyed God perfectly. Something you preach to the world is impossible for men to do. So you create another Jesus who did not come in the Flesh like unto His Brethren, but a super man with long flowing hair and perfect profile, with powers no other human has ever possessed before. And you attribute His Victory over sin, not because HE humbled Himself to God and became obedient, but because He was 100% God.

Thus diminishing HIS Great effort and sacrifice for us, and relegating it to "Jesus couldn't sin because HE was 100% God".

I do not prescribe to this popular jesus, I believe in the Christ of the Bible.

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1264
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #264 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 09:41:21 »
Quote GB;"The very worse kind of deception in this world is religious men believing they are already saved, already resurrected and already a "Son of God, when they are not."

made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! -Eph. 2:5

Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. -1Jhn.4:17

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. -Gal.3:26

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. -Rom. 8:14


Quote;"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Walk by the Spirit of God or practice the levitical laws?


Quote;"1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

"And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."


You do realize that God has made many commandments, not just ten?
Just because the Bible uses the word commandments doesn't mean written laws in every place its used. Works doesn't mean what you think it means every time its used either.
Jesus also says speaking Gods words is works. Studying God words is also called a work, 'he is a doer of the work'.

Quote;"The spirit of the world which can not accept the truth of God, or the Word of the Christ that HE says are Spirit?"

Christ has no word of his own, he spoke Gods word. Christ or Messiah means anointed, one anointed by God.

"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. -Jhn.12:49


I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers.

I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
-Deu.18:18

The very worse kind of deception in this world is religious men believing they are already saved, already resurrected and already a "Son of God, when they are not.

Nothing you posted makes this statement untrue, nor makes void the scriptures used to support it. The very purpose of deception in the scriptures is to convince folks they are saved, when they are not. This is the very purpose of the serpent in the Garden.

If you believe the scriptures show differently, I would welcome the study.



 

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1264
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #265 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 10:07:13 »

So, GB your post that said: Man's mind direct his body, well that is true, but you failed to recognize, or are able to see that there are TWO men with each having their own mind~old man Adam and the new man was is created after Jesus' image, which is the express image of God Himself.

So, my question is far from being stupid, but is very biblical and if answered according to the word of God find men like you in serious error! NONE would ever be born again!

As is your custom, you only post the parts of my answer that you can use to further your own religion. But I have come to expect such tactics from you.

So then, in your religion, each of us is born with two men in our mind, and old man, which is fleshy and a new man which is Spiritual.

Wow, that's a new one. The Bible says that God's gives flesh and blood man HIS Spirit "If they Keep His Commandments )Acts 5:32, John 14: 15-17, 23). But you preach HIS Spirit already exists in man.

Are you saying Peter and Jesus are in Error as well as me?






Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1264
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #266 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 11:13:54 »
Above is your response to this question from me: I'm asking about the biblical use of the phrase~flesh from such scriptures as John 3:6; Romans 8; this body of sin and death from Romans 7. Which as I said above~ the flesh has a mind just as the spirit of the new man does.  So by you saying the mind does not act separately from the body, it truly does not address my point. I asked:  Instead of answering my question, you begin to explain that if one believes, then they will be a doer of the word and not a hearer only~which is totally a different subject, which we agree with! You said: GB, that's EXACTLY what we are saying~yet man still in the flesh is at enmity against God, he is not subject to the law of God, and NEITHER CAN BE, until he is regenerated and has the mind of Christ in his inward new man.

So, you still have not answered the question above and truly cannot with the testimony of the scripture, UNLESS, you admit that the flesh has NO part in being saved from sin and condemnation. We are born of the Spirit of God being the ONLY active person in the process of the new birth of a sinner.

The point I was making is that a "regenerate" man, or a man who truly has a "renewed mind" walks in the "good works" God have before ordained that we should walk in them. But you reject most of these "good works" as a "yoke of Bondage and "Beggarly Elements" to those who would "yield themselves to them".

This would indicate, as far as the scriptures go, that you do not have a "regenerate mind" in that you say Lord, Lord, but you refuse to walk in or even acknowledge HIS Works, as worthy of your honor and respect, much less actual obedience as instructed.

There is no evidence in the Bible to suggest that God gave instruction to flesh and blood man, but withheld from this same man the capacity to follow the instruction. For those who "turn to Him", not just with their lips, but also with their mind and body, God provides help. They are many as the scriptures entail. Escapes from every temptation, the Sword of the Lord, Breastplate of Righteousness, Armor of God, etc.

Because you pretty much reject the Law and Prophets, as did the Pharisees, you have lost sight  of the true Gospel of Christ. This is not my doing.

In Exodus, God provided the Blood of the Passover Lamb for both the Stranger and Home born, while they were still in Egypt. Or as it is written in another place, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Before they were given God's Laws, before they were given God's Sabbaths, the Lamb of God was slain for them.

And they were given instruction as what to do with the Blood which included applying it to the Lintel and side posts of our house, which I believe is symbolic for applying the unblemished Life of the Christ to our mind, and our works. Those who did not follow this instruction regarding HIS Blood, were not spared the Plagues of Egypt. (Sin and deception)

This was not the end of Salvation as your preaching implies, but only the beginning.

In this case, flesh and blood humans had the capacity to follow the instruction. While they were still in sin, before Baptism through the Red Sea, before they even knew all of God's Laws.

It was the exact same thing with Abram. While he was still in sin God called him and gave him instruction. Abram had the capacity to follow the instruction before he even knew the land God would take him to.

These are our windows into the mind of Christ, examples of how we should think and walk, at least for Paul and His Disciples who "Believed all things written in the Law and Prophets".

You imply in your preaching that God chose Israel to bring out of sin regardless of whether they followed the instruction regarding the Blood of the Lamb or not. Or worse yet, He only gave the capacity to follow the instruction to two men out of the 630,000 that left Egypt, and the rest He slaughtered for not following His instruction they were not given the capacity to follow.

The Bible simply doesn't teach this.

BTR

  • Guest
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #267 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 11:25:18 »
The very worse kind of deception in this world is religious men believing they are already saved, already resurrected and already a "Son of God, when they are not.

Nothing you posted makes this statement untrue, nor makes void the scriptures used to support it. The very purpose of deception in the scriptures is to convince folks they are saved, when they are not. This is the very purpose of the serpent in the Garden.

If you believe the scriptures show differently, I would welcome the study.

Wrong, Adam was a son of God already.

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. -Luke 3:38

Satan tempted him with the fruit of the tree, knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong.

For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. -Gen. 3:5

What your doing, promoting works based on Law religion, is the same voice of Satan.

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she {took} of its fruit and ate.
She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
-Gen 3:6,7

Jesus did the opposite of Adam.

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
-Phil. 2:5-7

The written law was a punishment.

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant,
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
-2Cor.3:5-11


Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.

Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have even sent to you all My servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them.
Yet they did not obey Me or incline their ear
, but stiffened their neck. They did worse than their fathers.
-Jer. 7:21-26

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
For finding fault with them, He says,
            “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
            FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
            AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. -Heb. 8:7-9

"But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people."

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. -Romans 8:14
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 11:39:12 by BTR »

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1264
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #268 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 12:33:48 »
Wrong, Adam was a son of God already.

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. -Luke 3:38

Satan tempted him with the fruit of the tree, knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong.

For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. -Gen. 3:5

What your doing, promoting works based on Law religion, is the same voice of Satan.

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she {took} of its fruit and ate.
She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
-Gen 3:6,7

Jesus did the opposite of Adam.

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
-Phil. 2:5-7

The written law was a punishment.

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant,
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
-2Cor.3:5-11


Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.

Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have even sent to you all My servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them.
Yet they did not obey Me or incline their ear
, but stiffened their neck. They did worse than their fathers.
-Jer. 7:21-26

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
For finding fault with them, He says,
            “BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
            FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
            AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. -Heb. 8:7-9

"But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people."

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. -Romans 8:14


But you are still avoiding the true statement "The worse deception in the world is when religious men believe they are saved, when they are not". As Jesus said "Many shall call me Lord, Lord", but if they live in transgression to God's Laws, He doesn't know them. His Word's not mine.

Eve was convinced by the "other religious voice", that God was untrue, and that she could disobey Him and not die, contrary to what God had said..

In other words, the serpent deceived her. Surely your religion accepts this Biblical truth.







Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #269 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 13:27:59 »
Yes, for those who believe HIS Word, "gave he power to become the sons of God". Those who didn't believe the Word of God which became Flesh, HE did not give power to "become" sons of God.

Nope.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So this "power" to "BECOME" the Son's of God, did not come from man, nor the will of man, but of God. But the power to believe in Him first, has been given to all the world. As HE said;

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, (Not just you and those who follow your religion) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ("not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God")

Nope.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John didn't condemn men who "yield themselves to God". You do, but God never did.

Of course John didn't.

So yes Red, according to the Christ of the Bible, I have a part to play in my regeneration. I can not regenerate myself, but Jesus HIMSELF tells me how HIS process works. You don't believe these Word's, but that is not unusual, the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's Time didn't believe HIS Word's either.

Nope. If ever you feel you have a part to play is because God had chosen you first. And having chosen you, God will regenerate you and will transform you into the image of Jesus Christ. In this transformation, it is where you come into play. But not as though by your doing you transform yourself, for it is God who transforms you, not you.

Power to "Become" a child of God that God gives to those who "believe Him". Paul is right.

But when does the Word of God come to folks? Do I have any control over the religion I was born into? The family I was born into? Did Abraham have any control over the religion he was born into?

Of course not. But God called him when he was 75 years old. And it is written "Abram believed God, and it was accounted unto him as righteousness". And he "became" a Son of God, and given a different name, Abraham, the New Man at age 99. 24 years to "become a New Man"  But modern evil religions preaches that Abraham didn't have a choice not to believe. That God blessed Abraham because he obeyed because God made him believe, and made him obey.

God had chosen Abraham. How did Abraham know God had chosen him? How about you? How did you know God is calling you? How, do you suppose, the other Christians know God is calling them? No answer perhaps?

But definitely God moved to let Abraham know that He had chosen him. And God made sure that Abraham knew that it is Him who is calling him. 

Yes, it is written "Abram believed God, and it was accounted unto him as righteousness". And that was after God had chosen him.

Did Abraham have a choice to believe or not believe God when called to go from his country, his people and his father’s household to a land that God will show him, a place he did not know where? Of course he have. God does not decide for man, because if that were so, then man would not have sinned. But do you even think for a second that Abraham would choose not to believe? Do you even know how God called him? I believe that God had touched Abraham's heart or had persuaded Abraham so much so that he can't decide not to be believe God. For, for Abraham (or anyone for that matter) to leave his country, his people, his father's household, and go to somewhere he don't know where, with the wilderness around, is just madness. He could had easily not believed. But his believing only tells us that God had done something to convince Abraham and without a shadow of a doubt. When God chooses somebody, there is no heart so hard that God cannot convict and persuade. You don't believe that, do you?

What you want to believe is your doctrine that Abraham could have otherwise not believed God. What you want to believe is what your mind tells you and not what scriptures tells you. What you want to believe is that man, by his will power, his power to make a choice, makes him sort of untouchable, even by God.

Why, does your so-called will power, your power to make a choice prevent God from sending the sinner to Hell anytime He choose to? Does your so-called will power, your power to make a choice, prevent God from taking your life anytime He so decides? If not, why is it that you want to believe that your so-called will power, your power to make a choice, will prevent God from saving you and send you to heaven instead of Hell?   

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7535
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #270 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 13:31:03 »
deleted
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 14:33:44 by RB »

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7535
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #271 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 14:06:39 »
As is your custom, you only post the parts of my answer that you can use to further your own religion. But I have come to expect such tactics from you.
I quoted every word you said~look at the reply # 260 and see for your self~it is you that using "such tactics" not me, or you were so disturbed by my post to you that it caused you to get very confused looking for some type of answer back to me~regardless, it was a mess that you put together and posted.  Also, your post back to me # 263 was nothing more than a drunk man rambling and not worthy of a person's response back.
Quote from: GB Reply #265 on: Today at 10:07:13
So then, in your religion, each of us is born with two men in our mind, and old man, which is fleshy and a new man which is Spiritual. Wow, that's a new one.
Never said that~I told you that you got "shook up" making you very confused searching for answers back to me. Each person that has been born AGAIN by the Spirit of God, has TWO NATURES, and them ALONE. Is that clear to you, and can you work off of that premises when reading the posts that I made to you?  This is clearly seen throughout the NT~Romans 7 along with Galatians 5 probably the best two sources to see this truth in action/operation. The only "wow" would be your ability to follow other's teaching and present it in the context in which they are speaking and respond accordingly.
Quote from: GB Reply #265 on: Today at 10:07:13
Are you saying Peter and Jesus are in Error as well as me?
Only you~for Christ and his apostles would expose you for what you are worth~an antichrist spirit. I will answer some of your rambling posts when I answer 4WD's questions~at least he's more than capable following and contributing to the dialogue between two people~something you have a very hard time of doing. After answering 4WD, I will go back and work on your two posts to me~it should be very entertaining to say the least.   

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #272 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 14:43:19 »
Many are called. "Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"

God already knew Abram, just as HE already knows everyone. why??? How??? Because HE sees the end from the beginning. He knew what Abram would do because in God's Realm Abram already made his choice.

In God's Realm that you are saying, what choice did God see that Abram made? Was that the choice to believe God, so that he went out from out of his country, and from his kindred, and from his father's house, unto a land that God will show him, or was there a different occasion?

"So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him"

God didn't make Abram follow His instruction, but God knew HE would.
God did. He did, but without forcing Him or making him like a robot.

Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

(NASB) For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.”

(NKJV) For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.”

(NIV) For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”

You can go and check out the Greek text.

How did HE know what had not yet happened? Because God sees the end of Abraham from the beginning of Abraham. Not that God chose Abram based on nothing he did, because God saw everything Abram did, from birth to death, just as HE saw everything Sodom did from birth to death.

And God blessed him "BECAUSE" he obeyed as HE says. God "knew he would" from the foundation of the world, because God already saw him obey. That is why HE chose him from the foundation of the world. Not because God made him obey, but saw the choice Abram would make.

What did God see that transpired in the life of Abram? Were they not exactly what is in God's plan? What future did God see, which you say is the basis why He chose Abram? After God's seeing from beginning to end, did God changed anything from what He had already seen happened, so that, the course of things is changed? If not, then what need and sense was there for God to choose Abram, when before choosing him, God had already seen the absolute and unchangeable end?

I believe what is written. Jesus the man never prayed to HIMSELF even once. He didn't do HIS own will, HE didn't speak HIS own Words.

And why would a man pray to himself?

Yes, Jesus did not do His own will. Yes, Jesus didn't speak His own words. Do you know what that tells of Jesus' person?

For sure he isn't a robot, right? He have his own will. And this is His will, to follow the will of God. Did he really not do His own will?

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7535
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #273 on: Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 15:34:00 »
The point I was making is that a "regenerate" man, or a man who truly has a "renewed mind" walks in the "good works" God have before ordained that we should walk in them.
GB, that's the ONLY man that can walk in such works which God indeed ordained that his people walk in. NO PROBLEM on my end~he is the ONLY one that can do such works. The natural man has no desire to do them, nor CAN HE unless FIRST given the power to do so.
Quote from: GB Reply #266 on: Today at 11:13:54
But you reject most of these "good works" as a "yoke of Bondage and "Beggarly Elements" to those who would "yield themselves to them".
ONE MORE TIME~only as a means of OBTAINING eternal life, not as a means of knowing how to walk and please God. The inward man DELIGHTS in the law of God as the ONLY spiritual, good and holy law ever given or can be given.
Quote from: GB Reply #266 on: Today at 11:13:54
This would indicate, as far as the scriptures go, that you do not have a "regenerate mind" in that you say Lord, Lord, but you refuse to walk in or even acknowledge HIS Works, as worthy of your honor and respect, much less actual obedience as instructed.
How do you know that to be so? Have you ever seen me, and know my daily life? Just because I reject your dietary laws from the religion of Judaism, and other such laws that NT Christians are not under, does not mean that I reject the law of God which can be summed up under two laws...mainly~LOVE to God and man.

Quote from: GB Reply #266 on: Today at 11:13:54
In this case, flesh and blood humans had the capacity to follow the instruction. While they were still in sin, before Baptism through the Red Sea, before they even knew all of God's Laws.

It was the exact same thing with Abram. While he was still in sin God called him and gave him instruction.
You said: they had the capacity to follow the instructions while yet in sin! This goes directly against what Paul taught in Romans 8! Does this concern you? That you and Paul teach two opposing doctrines? It would certainly concern me and most other Believers.

You made a statement that just blew my mind~you said:
Quote from: GB Reply #248 on: Yesterday at 12:52:40
Power to "Become" a child of God that God gives to those who "believe Him". Paul is right.

But when does the Word of God come to folks? Do I have any control over the religion I was born into? The family I was born into? Did Abraham have any control over the religion he was born into?

Of course not. But God called him when he was 75 years old. And it is written "Abram believed God, and it was accounted unto him as righteousness". And he "became" a Son of God, and given a different name, Abraham, the New Man at age 99. 24 years to "become a New Man"  But modern evil religions preaches that Abraham didn't have a choice not to believe. That God blessed Abraham because he obeyed because God made him believe, and made him obey.
Now that's something I have never heard before in my almost fifty years of serving God. So it took Abraham 24 years to BECOME A NEW MAN! Based on that assumption most will likely never make it become born again!

I'm stopping for now to rest~I must answer my dear friend 4WD who has been patiently waiting.
« Last Edit: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 04:56:23 by RB »

Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #274 on: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 02:15:43 »
Quote from: GB
But you reject most of these "good works" as a "yoke of Bondage and "Beggarly Elements" to those who would "yield themselves to them".
ONE MORE TIME~only as a means of OBTAINING eternal life, not as a means of knowing how to walk and please God. The inward man DELIGHTS in the law of God as the ONLY spiritual, good and holy law ever given or can be given.

RB, it seems to be, that after telling that to GB, I think he wants to believe that you don't mean that at all. I think he wanted to believe that you (and I as well) don't want to follow God's commandments (according to what he thinks they are), or don't promote doing good works, because we believe that salvation is by grace and not by works.

So, I have to repeat it here again for his sake, I reject the teaching that man, by his works, is that which saves him, or the teaching that man, by his works and faith, is that which saves him. For this is the truth of the matter, according to scriptures, that man, by grace is saved by God, through faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And that being, here's what awaits the saved, those created by God in Christ Jesus :

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Online RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7535
  • Manna: 369
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #275 on: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 04:21:24 »
Quote from: GB Reply #266 on: Today at 11:13:54
There is no evidence in the Bible to suggest that God gave instruction to flesh and blood man, but withheld from this same man the capacity to follow the instruction.
I decided to say more about this quote from you.

GB, no one has ever said so~ again, that's your flaw understanding of other's teachings based upon your corrupt understanding of works needed before one can have the confidence that they are heaven-bound.

Also, that saying of yours above is your twisted understanding of many bible doctrines mainly the doctrine of "imputation" of Adam's sin to his posterity and Christ's righteousness to the elect.

We have said many times over that God created Adam, your father, and mine, and gave him all that he needed to perfectly obey him~placed in a sin free world, and in a body that was sin free with power to continue it the state in which His Creator created him. He was created after God's image, in righteousness, in spiritual wisdom, knowledge, and understanding and so was his beautiful wife.... mother Eve.

The ONLY thing that God did "NOT" do was he did not secured them in the state in which he created them and neither was he under obligation to do so~the manner in which God did what he did, was a PERFECT opportunity for Adam to live in total happiness and contentment forever. We all know the sad results of Adam's sin, at least we should know the results of his disobedience. He fell into sin and LOST God's image and took on the image of the devil himself! He lost  spiritual light, understanding, true wisdom and knowledge, not only for himself, but for all that will ever come from his generation out of his loins~ It's called the doctrine of IMPUTATION~(See and consider: Psalms 32; Romans 4, etc.) I had rather stand IN ADAM then in my own ability after the fall of Adam! I see God's wisdom in allowing us to be IN ADAM and hold us ALL accountable in Adam when we consider the manner in which God created him and placed him in a perfect world.

So do not accuse us of saying anything other than what he have just said concerning God withholding the power to obey him~that never happened...is that clear to your confused mind? Can you at least be honest when posting about what others believe and teach? Maybe I'm asking a hard thing from you, prove me wrong by not bearing false witness against your neighbor. 


« Last Edit: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 04:28:01 by RB »

Offline GB

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1264
  • Manna: 9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #276 on: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 10:16:37 »
 author=RB link=topic=105627.msg1055159906#msg1055159906 date=1585732884]
 I decided to say more about this quote from you.


Quote
We have said many times over that God created Adam, your father, and mine, and gave him all that he needed to perfectly obey him~placed in a sin free world, and in a body that was sin free with power to continue it the state in which His Creator created him.

This is the perfect example of subtle deception. This is how satan works. First, it promotes a lie and represents it as foundational truth. In the first example our Gracious God gave us in HIS Word, of how satan deceives, it promoted a lie to it's victim, Eve. The foundational lie that became the truth in Eves mind, is that God lied to her when HE said she would die if she rejected His Commandment. Now he twisted some of God's Word to convince her of this. This is very important to understand.

In your case, the  foundational lie that you have been convinced of is this. I will use your own words so you can't accuse me of taking them out of context, or misunderstanding them.

Quote
"We have said many times over that God created Adam, your father, and mine, and gave him all that he needed to perfectly obey him, placed in a sin free world, with power to continue it the state in which His Creator created him."

How can Adam be in a sin free world where satan exists? This is a very subtle, but huge lie that is the foundation of everything you build on top of it. Adam and Jesus both arrived into a world where sin existed before they did. This is the truth, at least according to the Bible.

Then you continue.

Quote
The ONLY thing that God did "NOT" do was he did not secured them in the state in which he created them and neither was he under obligation to do so.

Why would God need to "secure" Adam who HE placed in a "sin free" world? Why is there a "Commandment" even needed in a "sin free world"? Truly you are a confused man as it is written "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"

So again, in your religion, the reason Adam disobeyed is because God did not "secure Him" in obedience, after placing him in a sin free world. But Paul says: "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me".

How can this happen in a Sin Free world?

 And in your religion God was under no "obligation" to "secure" His first Son against sin you preach to the world didn't even exist. The lie expands.

Quote
~the manner in which God did what he did, was a PERFECT opportunity for Adam to live in total happiness and contentment forever.


The lie continues to expand as Leaven in bread. So in your religion, because there was no sin, no reason for Adam not to live in perfect contentment. So this must mean Adam was "Totally Depraved" from creation, because he created sin in a world where sin didn't exist..

But wait, you continue.

Quote
He was created after God's image, in righteousness, in spiritual wisdom, knowledge, and understanding and so was his beautiful wife.... mother Eve.

So let's get this straight. Adam and Eve were created in God's Image, in righteousness, spiritual wisdom and understanding, placed in a "world without sin" with everything they needed to live perfect happy lives in righteousness and contentment.

Then what?

Quote
We all know the sad results of Adam's sin, at least we should know the results of his disobedience. He fell into sin and LOST God's image and took on the image of the devil himself!

The devil? Wait a minute, You preach to the world that God placed Adam in a "sin free world", that he was granted all wisdom and understanding, created after God in all righteousness.

Where did the devil come from? How can this be if Adam was placed in a perfect sinless world with all righteousness and wisdom and understanding, along with his beautiful wife. Did God not know of the existence of the devil?

Or did He deceive Adam by placing the devil there, and refusing to let Adam know?

Quote
He lost  spiritual light, understanding, true wisdom and knowledge, not only for himself, but for all that will ever come from his generation out of his loins~

What good was the wisdom and spiritual light, true wisdom and understanding, if it didn't inform Adam of sin which existed in the world God placed him in?

What good is your wisdom and understanding if it leads you to preach to the world the insidious lie that Adam was created in a world where sin didn't exist?

Quote
It's called the doctrine of IMPUTATION~(See and consider: Psalms 32; Romans 4, etc.) I had rather stand IN ADAM then in my own ability after the fall of Adam! I see God's wisdom in allowing us to be IN ADAM and hold us ALL accountable in Adam when we consider the manner in which God created him and placed him in a perfect world.

This is just one example of the false doctrines to promote Red. You have created your own religion, with your own vision of the "Perfect World". I am not convinced that you know you are telling these lies, you have just been snared by satan to do its will. But I implore you to humble yourself and "yield yourself" to God's definition of the perfect world.

God did not place Adam in a sin free world. The serpent was in the garden, placed there by God, before man even got there, to provide a choice for man. And HE provides blessings for those who "Choose" Him over the "other religious voice" as HE Himself teaches and you reject outright. And curses for men who reject the Judgment of God and choose the judgments of the "other religious voices".

Duet. 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is the God who became flesh and said to "deny myself" and to "come to Me" and "be a doer on HIS Words". Your preaching that man has no choice in this life is false, if the Word of God is our guide.

Quote
So do not accuse us of saying anything other than what he have just said concerning God withholding the power to obey him~that never happened...is that clear to your confused mind? Can you at least be honest when posting about what others believe and teach? Maybe I'm asking a hard thing from you, prove me wrong by not bearing false witness against your neighbor.

You preach

 
Quote
The natural man has no desire to do them, nor CAN HE unless FIRST given the power to do so.

The natural man craps all over himself until he learns to "rule over " his own flesh. It's not "natural" for a man to trust another, especially an invisible God. It's not "natural" to humble ones self either. Where does the power to "rule over the flesh" come from in these cases?

To those who strive to "rule over their flesh" for the Christ's sake, against their nature, power is given. There is a "cost", Jesus said anyone who come to HIM "MUST" deny their natural selves. If they remain "natural", refuse to submit or humble themselves, then they "can not" be obedient, just as if they refuse to accept the teaching of their parents, or never get the teaching, they will never learn to control their own bodily functions.

You have the power to accept God's Judgments of Holy and clean over your own judgments, you just don't believe in God's Judgments. You have the power to believe, you have just been convinced by "other religious voices" not to.

The Christ of the Bible, the Word of God which became Flesh, has placed before any man who reads HIS Words, the same choice He placed before Adam and Eve. And the power to "choose" Him is given all men who HE calls. God knows who will choose Him because HE sees the end from the beginning, but we don't. This is why HE has written so many time to "turn to Him", and "Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts", etc., etc..

 But we have something Adam didn't have. AS the Scriptures teach.

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (Life and good, Death and evil)

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

God provides His Voice, and the "other" voice to test men. For those who choose Him over the other religious voice, to them HE gives power. We have example after example of those who made both choices.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

And Peter confirms.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The reason why Jesus and the Preachers of His time couldn't come to agreement is because religion is more precious to many than what the Word of God actually says. This is why the mainstream preachers of Christ's time were never able to "SEE" the truth right in front of them. This is why you preach falsehoods like Adam being placed by God into a world without sin.










Offline Michael2012

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
  • Manna: 12
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #277 on: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 11:06:50 »
Quote from:  GB Reply #266 on: Today at 11:13:54
There is no evidence in the Bible to suggest that God gave instruction to flesh and blood man, but withheld from this same man the capacity to follow the instruction.

Of course you will find nothing like that in scriptures.

Let me share this.

In the beginning, at first God gave commandment to man, to Adam. It was really a choice between life and death, between knowing good and evil or not, in the form of a commandment. And man chose the knowledge of good and evil and chose death. From that time on, so it was with man. After some time, man multiplied and here's what scriptures says of mankind, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."GB, do you realize now what became of man because of Adam's choice? So great is their wickedness that God grieved at his heart, and said "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth". Again, do you realize now what became of man because of Adam's choice?

Then, after the destruction of mankind, saved 8, in the flood at Noah's time, God gave mankind a fresh start. And they multiplied as was before. And we could safely assume that God gave man instructions and commandments, at many times and in various ways. Why does God gives them commandments, besides the purpose to give them a choice between good and evil, or between life and death? One thing we learn from apostle Paul, that in order that sin might be recognized as sin, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. Why is that necessary, if not that mankind is so insensitive to the gravity of sin against the Most holy God, and what it brings the man, that is, death, even the second death in the lake of fire. And all these is to point them to Christ.

So yes, God gave commandments to man. And that brings out the truth that man is responsible for breaking God's commandments. He is responsible for the evil he does and have chosen to do. It brings to his face that he had chosen evil and death. So, by that itself, it is erroneous to teach that God did not give them a choice, or God remove from them the will to choose. And since the beginning, man evidently is by nature sinful, that, when the commandment comes to the man, not one man (except the Word that became flesh, Jesus) had continued to be faithful in keeping the commandment. That is the situation and nature of the kind of Adam. They are, at least according to scriptures, called by Paul as dead in sins ~ physically alive, but called even by Jesus Christ no less, as "dead" nonetheless. And I will presume that you know the concept of death or what it means to be "dead".

« Last Edit: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 13:21:00 by Michael2012 »

Offline 4WD

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10478
  • Manna: 299
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #278 on: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 11:36:06 »
We all know the sad results of Adam's sin, at least we should know the results of his disobedience. He fell into sin and LOST God's image and took on the image of the devil himself! He lost  spiritual light, understanding, true wisdom and knowledge, not only for himself, but for all that will ever come from his generation out of his loins~ It's called the doctrine of IMPUTATION~(See and consider: Psalms 32; Romans 4, etc.)
There is not one word in Psalms 32 or Romans 4 that says or even suggests that God imputed Adam's sin on anyone else.  Ezekiel, Chapter 18, says that He did not impute Adam's sin on Adam's sons; neither did He impute Adam's sin on Adam's grandson nor any descendant thereafter..  Moreover there is nothing ever in Scripture that says that Adam lost God's image when he sinned. The spirit of every man, formed in him by God, was formed in God's image. God, not Satan, is the Father of spirits (Heb 12:0).
Quote from: RB
So do not accuse us of saying anything other than what he have just said concerning God withholding the power to obey him~that never happened...is that clear to your confused mind?
It is not so much that you say God withholds the power to obey him; rather it is that you say that God simply gives that power to a select few and even there has nothing do to with those few themselves. According to Reformed Theology it is just some divine whim  --  ridiculous to the extreme.  Another false conclusion derived from the false premise of Total Depravity.

BTR

  • Guest
Re: Trying the spirits whether they are of God~1st John 4:1
« Reply #279 on: Wed Apr 01, 2020 - 12:12:50 »
Quote GB "if the Word of God is our guide."

Your last post I agree with most of what you wrote, except the quote. The word is not our guide, its not a rule book, its a sword to cut through lies and deception.
God Himself is our guide.
If you think the Bible is your guide book with rules you must follow in order to become righteous, that's where your missing it. That explains why you sound like a seventh day adventist.

The letter kills, but the spirit gives life. (2Cor.3)

"Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,

and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
  -Eph. 6:13-17