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Author Topic: Under the Law  (Read 5397 times)

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Offline Johnb

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #35 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 13:18:29 »
Bonnie
Gospel gave a good answer to your really dumb question.  (sorry but it is a got ya type dumb question)
Being saved by grace through faith is not just an intellectual belief.  It is accepting Jesus as the Son of God and putting our trust in Him.  That is the faith that is clearly outlined in all of scripture.  Then Jesus extends His grace to us.  He does not extend grace to Satan because he does not have the trusting faith or belief that Jesus talks about.
 
So what is it that you think must be added to gain salvation?

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #35 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 13:18:29 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #36 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 17:01:32 »
Bonnie
Gospel gave a good answer to your really dumb question.  (sorry but it is a got ya type dumb question)
Being saved by grace through faith is not just an intellectual belief.  It is accepting Jesus as the Son of God and putting our trust in Him.  That is the faith that is clearly outlined in all of scripture.  Then Jesus extends His grace to us.  He does not extend grace to Satan because he does not have the trusting faith or belief that Jesus talks about.
 
So what is it that you think must be added to gain salvation?

Added to what?  What the Bible says about receiving salvation?  Nothing!

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #36 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 17:01:32 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #37 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 17:12:59 »
John, I think when Archangel Micheal thrust Satan out of heaven along with the other rebelling angels they pretty much believed that they were already defeated.  I think that at least they know by experience rather than imagination.

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #37 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 17:12:59 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #38 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 17:24:46 »
Gospel, what is your point?  Many people refuse to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of their life, not just the demons.
Many others say they believe in God but in works they deny him.  It's in the book, look it up.

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #38 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 17:24:46 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Johnb

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #39 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 17:44:31 »
Bonnie
the question was what do you believe must be added to what Jesus said in John 3 that one must do to be saved?


Jimmy
I was asking Bonnie what she believes must be added to Jesus statement in John 3.  Since I spent over 6 years in post graduate study in CoC colleges I know what you believe.  But all that aside  I accept what the Son of God said not CoC doctrine.

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #39 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 17:44:31 »



Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #40 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 20:31:57 »

Jimmy
I was asking Bonnie what she believes must be added to Jesus statement in John 3.  Since I spent over 6 years in post graduate study in CoC colleges I know what you believe.  But all that aside  I accept what the Son of God said not CoC doctrine.

I seriously doubt that you know what I believe except what you have gleaned from my postings here since I never spent even a day at a CoC college.

But in John 3, Jesus said that one must be born of water and the Spirit.  That seems to me to be something  beyond your faulty faith alone concept.  Otherwise it seems that Jesus would have just said "faith alone".  But of course He didn't did He? But that is not really surprising since no one else in the NT ever spoke of salvation by "faith alone" either.  So I don't really think that you accept what the Son of God said.  CoC doctrine -- I am not that well versed in it perhaps some or most but not all of it.

BTW, you spent 6 years in post graduate study in CoC colleges?  Slow or what?

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #40 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 20:31:57 »

Offline gospel

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #41 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:27:08 »
Gospel, what is your point?  Many people refuse to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of their life, not just the demons.
Many others say they believe in God but in works they deny him.  It's in the book, look it up.


The point is ...

saying demons believe is pure hogwash, in the way it is used to make belief seem unimportant and nonessential ...that's the point

Belief is the most essential foundational fundamental empowering aspect of Christianity

People die for what they believe


That's the point!

People are willing to die rather than denounce belief in Jesus


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/03/iranian-pastor-has-greater-chance-facing-death-with-new-allegations/


That's the point!

So don't give me the demons believe in Jesus bit for it only serves to show a lack of understanding of what BELIEF IN CHRIST means and what James was actually talking about

That's the point!

Offline Sinead

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #42 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:29:59 »

New King James Version (NKJV)

 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Offline gospel

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #43 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:32:13 »
Quote
But in John 3, Jesus said that one must be born of water and the Spirit.  That seems to me to be something  beyond your faulty faith alone concept.

The major point you seem to be missing about either birth is ....

You can't control either of them

Your first or your second

Your first occurs without your input

Your second birth occurs by the Holy Spirit because God has predestined and drawn you and it is by grace so you can't boast

Though that's hard for some people to avoid

They are certain they have something to do with their new birth

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #43 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:32:13 »

Offline Sinead

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #44 on: Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:35:30 »
Gospel, what is your point?  Many people refuse to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior of their life, not just the demons.
Many others say they believe in God but in works they deny him.  It's in the book, look it up.

Exactly right. Believing in Jesus doesn't grant a person salvation. Many God-haters and persecuters of christians believe.
Satan believes, demons believe - they know better than anyone Who He is and what He's like.
We aren't doing God any favours by believing in Him. He exists and He is who He is whether we believe or not.

Belief alone will not save anyone.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #45 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 05:53:45 »
Jimmy said
BTW, you spent 6 years in post graduate study in CoC colleges?  Slow or what?

 rofl  Good catch Jimmy.  Actually it was 6 total including graduate school. 

I also often make arguments that do not necessarily express my personal belief.  You ask for a verse that called for grace through faith only and I provided that. 
Yes we have had this discussion before and I know your views.  I also know what the hard line CoC teaches on this point.  However, like Stone and other RM folks I accept folks on their life and word not based upon my perceived understanding of scripture.   

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #46 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:07:26 »
Quote
But in John 3, Jesus said that one must be born of water and the Spirit.  That seems to me to be something  beyond your faulty faith alone concept.

The major point you seem to be missing about either birth is ....

You can't control either of them

Your first or your second

Your first occurs without your input

Your second birth occurs by the Holy Spirit because God has predestined and drawn you and it is by grace so you can't boast

Though that's hard for some people to avoid

They are certain they have something to do with their new birth

Two major points you seeem to be missing is that Jesus wasn't speaking about the first birth at all.  And the second is that you indeed do have input to the occurance of the second.  That is hard for some people to avoid, otherwise they would have to accept the fact that they are responsible for their own failures not God.

The belief in original sin and in unconditional election nicely places the blame for every one condemned and for all the evil in the world squarely on God.  No reason for accepting responsibility for anything when you can blame God for it.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #47 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:14:31 »
Here is what I believe.
Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #48 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:24:57 »
Jimmy said
BTW, you spent 6 years in post graduate study in CoC colleges?  Slow or what?

 rofl  Good catch Jimmy.  Actually it was 6 total including graduate school.  

I also often make arguments that do not necessarily express my personal belief.  You ask for a verse that called for grace through faith only and I provided that.  
Yes we have had this discussion before and I know your views.  I also know what the hard line CoC teaches on this point.  However, like Stone and other RM folks I accept folks on their life and word not based upon my perceived understanding of scripture.  


I can appreciate your effort but you didn't provide such a verse. Do you understand the difference between a verse that only calls for faith versus a verse that calls for faith only?  If you really spent 6 years in CoC colleges, you should know that difference.  The failure of the faith alone folks is that they make the claim that a verse that only calls for faith is a verse that calls for faith only.  That is a huge logical fallacy.  That same logical fallacy would lead one to think that Peter, in calling for only repentance and baptism in Acts 2:38, has called for salvation by repentance and baptism only and has denied that faith and anything else was even necessary.  

By the way, I do not think that my views are what the hard line CoC teaches on this point.
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:52:34 by Jimmy »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #49 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 06:50:19 »
Here is what I believe.
Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
 

Well yes.  How could you not believe Romans 8?

Here is just one of the more than 150 occasions where Paul speaks of being "in Christ" or "in Him" or "in whom" or "clothed with Christ" or having "put on Christ".  It is used by Paul so often that one might tend to call it Paul's mantra.  Without going into all the discussions that Paul does concerning those who are "in Christ", the question to be answered is does Paul, in speaking of those who are "in Christ" ever say how they managed to get that way, i.e., how it happened that they are "in Christ".  The answer to that question is yes. 

Offline Johnb

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #50 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 10:08:13 »
Jimmy
I think you will find my personal understanding is not far from yours.  The major difference is like I said that I am willing to accept others (like the early RM folks) based on their profession and life not my understanding of scripture.  

I make others arguments for them to show they have a valid point.  Until only a few centuries ago man did not have the bible in their common language and the books of the canon were decided by men and more specifically mostly Catholic men.  Men through the centuries did not have the whole of what we call the NT.  When a verse states that one is saved by their faith in Christ it is logical to conclude that it is by faith alone.  Now even many who claim faith or grace alone misunderstand the meaning of that phrase.  Here are the 5 pillars of the Reformation movement with an explanation.  


Sola Scriptura - By Scripture Alone
Sola Gratia - By Grace Alone
Solo Christo - By Christ Alone
Sola Fide - By Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - Glory To God Alone
Lets take a look at the first pillar

Sola Scriptura - By Scripture Alone
For hundreds of years the people had been taught the unbiblical false notion that the traditions of "the Church" (of Rome) were equal with and in fact superior to the Holy Bible. The cry of the Reformers was Sola Scriptura or The Scripture Alone. By that they meant that the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were inspired by God and therefore the sole and sufficient authority in all matters of faith and practice and therefore the Scripture alone is the measure of truth. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 testifies to this truth -- "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

The written Word stands gloriously alone in its majesty. It testifies in God's name. It demands reverence, unhesitating faith in its doctrines and unfaltering obedience to its commands.

Tradition that does not line up with the word of God is to be rejected. We see this in the exchange between Christ and the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 15:2-3 "Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

Over and over again the Reformers rejected the teachings "Holy Mother Church, the decisions of Popes and the decrees of Councils because they went contrary to the clear teaching of the Holy Scriptures. They believed the truth of Psalms 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." They knew that mans words were temporary but Gods words were eternal (Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.") They knew it was fruitless to develop a system of worship based on the traditions of men instead of the Word of God. Matthew 15:8-9 points that out when he says, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Sola Scriptura The Scripture alone is the sole and sufficient authority in all matters of faith and practice. In fact, it is the Scripture that God uses to effect the New Birth for we read, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23 The second pillar of Reformation truth is

Sola Gratia - By Grace Alone
Generally, grace is the free, unmerited favor of God. Specifically, grace is the unmerited eternal salvation of God, which comes freely to the believing sinner as a gift through the atonement of Jesus Christ. It is receiving the opposite of what we deserve. It is the free forgiveness of sin and the offer of free imputed righteousness, which was purchased by Jesus Christ. Salvation by grace means salvation is not attained or maintained by human works; rather, it is the free gift from God offered to sinners deserving of nothing but punishment, through faith in Christ's blood. This is the Gospel of the grace of Christ.

Salvation is entirely of grace. This means it is exclusively a divine work, absolutely sovereign and free, in which sinners play no part and make no contribution. Paul promotes this Bible truth in Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

I must remind you that God is not obliged to save anyone. No one merits or deserves salvation. Grace, and grace alone, is the cause of salvation. If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. Romans 11:6

By grace, God chooses people to eternal life, redeems them through Jesus Christ, calls them by the Holy Spirit, justifies them by faith, adopts them into His family, and preserves them unto eternal life (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 11:5; Galatians 1:15; Titus 3:7; Ephesians 1:5-6; 2:7; Romans 5:21).

But, the scheme of salvation taught by the Church of Rome is totally contrary to the Bible teaching that salvation is by grace alone. Rome teaches the doctrine of merit, that good works do truly deserve eternal life; and whosoever believes differently is accursed. The Roman Church taught and teaches the idea that a righteous person may accumulate a surplus store of good works, over and above what is required (called, works of supererogation). These extra merits, form a treasury or fund, and can be dispensed by the Pope to less holy Roman Catholics who can then enjoy the benefits earned by others (the doctrine of indulgences)!

But the Reformers declared the truth of the Bible that -- [God] hath saved us...not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace (2 Timothy 1:9). This is Reformation doctrine, Sola Gratia. It is explained quite well by Augustus Toplady. He said --

"The way to Heaven lies not over a toll-bridge, but over a free-bridge; even the unmerited grace of God in Christ Jesus. Grace finds us beggars but leaves us debtors." The next pillar of Reformation truth is

Solo Christo -- By Christ Alone
How can a person have access to God? Is it through the priests, departed saints, holy angels or the Virgin Mary as the Church of Rome alleges? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Christ alone is forth in Scripture as the only mediator. The Bible says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

Only through Christ can we have acceptance with God. He is the only way of access into God's presence and the only channel by which blessings are bestowed. Solo Christo -- By Christ Alone.

Sola Fide - By Faith Alone
"How can a person be right with God?" The Bible and the Roman Church give us conflicting answers! The Bible says, A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Romans 3:28).

Lets begin by defining the term justification. Justification means, "to declare righteous." Justification is God's declaration that those who trust Jesus Christ are perfectly righteous before Him. It is a legal concept, as when a judge gives a verdict. God is the great Judge. It is His law we have broken. Before I am saved, God declares that I am a condemned sinner. After I come to Christ, God declares that I am righteous because of what Christ did for me on Calvary. Justification is being brought into a new spiritual position before God (Romans 5:1-2).

The doctrine of justification by faith alone is the central truth of Christianity and the real test of a church's fidelity to the Gospel. When God justifies sinners, He declares them to be exempt from punishment and entitled to reward solely on the ground of what Christ has done for them (Romans 3:24; 5:9). Faith is simply the sinner's personal reliance on Christ as Savior (Ephesians 1:13).

God justifies us when, in our desperation, we flee to Christ and place our entire confidence in His substitutionary life and death. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified (Galatians 2:16).

Dr. Isaac Watts, the great hymn writer and preacher put it this way -

"No more, my God, I boast no more
     Of all the duties I have done:
I quit the hopes I held before,
     To trust the merits of Thy Son.
The best obedience of my hands
     Dares not appear before Thy throne;
But faith can answer Thy demands,
     By pleading what my Lord hath done."

The Roman Catholic Church denies the doctrine of justification by faith. According to Roman dogma, "The instrumental cause [of justification] is the sacrament of baptism," and, "through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith co-operating with good works..." enables people to be - "further justifled!" (From: The Decrees of the Council of Trent.)

The Reformers raised their voices in united protest against such perversion of biblical Truth. Luther's declared:

"I, Martin Luther, an unworthy preacher of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, thus profess and thus believe; that this article, that faith alone, without works, can justify before God, shall never be overthrown ... This is the true Gospel... This is the doctrine I shall teach; and this the Holy Spirit and the Church of the faithful has delivered. In this will I abide. Amen."

Soli Deo Gloria - Glory To God Alone
As Jonah of old declared, "Salvation is of the LORD." Jonah 2:9 The Apostle Paul wrote "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," 2 Timothy 1:9

God alone is responsible for our Salvation and therefore we should lift high the voice of adoring praise and thanksgiving, so that all the glory is given to God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The entire plan of salvation as the Apostle Paul teaches is, "To the praise of the gloty of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Hence the doxology: Unto him be gloiy in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end." Ephesians 3.21.

The Reformers rejected the Romanist doctrine that exalts the Pope, the priests and, by its doctrine of salvation by works, believers themselves. They rightly saw it as a man-centred religion, very far removed from the religion of the New Testament. The Truth rediscovered in the Reformation brought the glory back to God.

William Tyndale, the English Reformer, Bible translator and martyr, wrote in his Prologue to the Epistle to the Romans:

"We see that God only, Who, according to the Scripture, worketh all in all things, worketh a man's justifying, salvation, and health... God's mercy in promising, and Truth in fulfilling His promises, saveth us, and not we ourselves; and therefore is all laud, praise, and glory to be given unto God for His mercy and Truth, and not unto us for our merits and deservings."


Offline DaveW

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #51 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 11:28:57 »
Quote
Sola Scriptura - By Scripture Alone
Sola Gratia - By Grace Alone
Solo Christo - By Christ Alone
Sola Fide - By Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - Glory To God Alone
I have a problem with all of these because of one recurrant word: "Alone." God never said anything "alone" was good. He is not alone.

This "alone" malarky is a good example of how our logic system screws up the biblical texts.   By isolating things out you make them abstract. God and His logic are not abstract. Instead HE is relational. All biblical truths are relational, between God and us and to each other. Sometimes that relationship is in dynamic tension meaning that they pull against each other. That is ok.  Consider it like a bicep and tricep muscle pair.  They move in exact opposite directions but give the arm much flexibility.

Sola xxxx  is just like having a bicep without a tricep. Even if it bulges, you will not be able to do much.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #52 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 12:49:38 »
Until only a few centuries ago man did not have the bible in their common language and the books of the canon were decided by men and more specifically mostly Catholic men.  

Not only that but the individual books of course were written by men and more specifically mostly Jewish men.  I guess that pretty much negates the value of the whole thing.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #53 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 12:55:32 »
Jimmy
I think you will find my personal understanding is not far from yours.  

If so, Johnb, you hide it well.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #54 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 13:40:54 »
Until only a few centuries ago man did not have the bible in their common language and the books of the canon were decided by men and more specifically mostly Catholic men. 

Not only that but the individual books of course were written by men and more specifically mostly Jewish men.  I guess that pretty much negates the value of the whole thing.

Does not negate the value of the whole NT just shows that it was not written in the same way or with the same intent as the OT.  The over riding testament that Jesus is the Son of God and has made the sacrifice for our sins is clear and consistent.  There are different ways to read and understand the NT.  Many including myself reject strict pattern theology.   I do believe strongly in the providence of God and if He had wanted another book of law or rules to follow it would not have been locked away for centuries.  However, the message of the good news has always been consistent often by oral tradition.

As for my personal understanding yes I do sometimes hide them well.  That is because I do not bind my understanding on others and refuse to fellowship them.  As Nick would say I am not the ump and neither are you.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #55 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 14:46:40 »
Until only a few centuries ago man did not have the bible in their common language and the books of the canon were decided by men and more specifically mostly Catholic men. 

Not only that but the individual books of course were written by men and more specifically mostly Jewish men.  I guess that pretty much negates the value of the whole thing.

There are different ways to read and understand the NT. 

Of course.  And who besides God can argue with any of those ways?  If it seems right, it must be right. If it feels good, do it! There really are not any absolutes in either the right or the wrong.  It is all just emotion anyway. 

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #56 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 14:50:50 »
Until only a few centuries ago man did not have the bible in their common language and the books of the canon were decided by men and more specifically mostly Catholic men. 

Not only that but the individual books of course were written by men and more specifically mostly Jewish men.  I guess that pretty much negates the value of the whole thing.

 I do believe strongly in the providence of God and if He had wanted another book of law or rules to follow it would not have been locked away for centuries. 

That you see the OT as a book of law or rules to follow is quite telling and perhaps explains more than you intended.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #57 on: Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 18:43:54 »
Jimmy
Now you are guilty of what you find fault with others.  I did not say the OT was only a rule book or a rule book alone.  It taught much about God.  However, it contained "the Law".  The NT teaches over and over that one of the purposes of the the law was to teach man that he can not be a good rule keeper.  We can not be good enough we must have grace. 

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #58 on: Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 05:22:09 »
Jimmy
Now you are guilty of what you find fault with others.  I did not say the OT was only a rule book or a rule book alone. 

Johnb,

No I am not.  I didn't say "only"  or "alone".  But you did indicate that it was a book of rules.

..... if He had wanted another book of law or rules to follow ........

Offline Johnb

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #59 on: Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 06:19:57 »
Jimmy
Now I have explained that the OT had other purposes than just a book of rules.  Communication is often difficult.   That is part of the reason for so many differing doctrines.   

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #60 on: Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 06:31:35 »
Jimmy
Now I have explained that the OT had other purposes than just a book of rules.  Communication is often difficult.   That is part of the reason for so many differing doctrines.  

The biggest reason for so many differing doctrines is because there are too many who, like you, think there are different ways to read and understand the NT. In some sense you may be correct.  However, there is truth.  And truth is not self contradictory.

Until only a few centuries ago man did not have the bible in their common language and the books of the canon were decided by men and more specifically mostly Catholic men.  

Not only that but the individual books of course were written by men and more specifically mostly Jewish men.  I guess that pretty much negates the value of the whole thing.

Does not negate the value of the whole NT just shows that it was not written in the same way or with the same intent as the OT.  The over riding testament that Jesus is the Son of God and has made the sacrifice for our sins is clear and consistent. There are different ways to read and understand the NT.  Many including myself reject strict pattern theology.   I do believe strongly in the providence of God and if He had wanted another book of law or rules to follow it would not have been locked away for centuries.  However, the message of the good news has always been consistent often by oral tradition.

As for my personal understanding yes I do sometimes hide them well.  That is because I do not bind my understanding on others and refuse to fellowship them.  As Nick would say I am not the ump and neither are you.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #61 on: Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 07:11:25 »
Yes there is truth.  Jesus came to earth to be the lamb sacrificed for our sins.  Those who believe and trust him receive the grace of God.  That is the true doctrine revealed in the NT.  It is not a special way of doing church or some magic formula or a set of rules that if one keeps them they will deserve salvation.  Trying to boil the NT down to a new law or set of rules to follow is futile, confusing and simply false doctrine.  The "true doctrine" in the NT is the risen Christ not an institutional church pattern theology.  Certainly not a church doctrine that did not exist before the 19th  century. 

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #62 on: Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 08:39:09 »
Yes there is truth.  Jesus came to earth to be the lamb sacrificed for our sins.  Those who believe and trust him receive the grace of God.  That is the true doctrine revealed in the NT.  It is not a special way of doing church or some magic formula or a set of rules that if one keeps them they will deserve salvation.  Trying to boil the NT down to a new law or set of rules to follow is futile, confusing and simply false doctrine.  The "true doctrine" in the NT is the risen Christ not an institutional church pattern theology.  Certainly not a church doctrine that did not exist before the 19th  century. 

Do you think that Acts 2:38 is a new law or set of rules to follow?  Do you think that the "true doctrine" of the NT says something other that what it says? Do you think it says something other than what it seems to say?  Is it simply institutional church pattern theology?

Perhaps you don't think that Peter's statement on Pentecost,  "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit," is a statement to the Jews there about what they needed to do to receive salvation.

I am more than a little curious, Johnb.  Given those six years at a CoC college and whatever years there are since then, what do you now believe Peter meant by Acts 2:38?

Rather than take this thread any further astray, perhaps we could continue this conversation in the one on one debates section.  I will open a topic there and you can respond or not as you chose.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #63 on: Thu Dec 15, 2011 - 17:12:42 »
No need for a new thread.  My personal belief is probably much like the early RM folks.  Yes I believe and teach baptism for the remission of sins.  Also like the RM folks I fellowship those who differ with me on this subject.  In the house church I now attend all have followed that path.  Mine is to teach what I believe on this and other subjects but it is an individual responsibility for each person to follow what the believe and understand.  I have yet to have anyone who after study and reading the NT scripture and want to follow Christ refuse to be baptised. 

So you see there would be no need to debate one who believes the same thing.  Now there are many other CoC doctrines including it being the one true church that we would have many differences.  I do not accept CENI nor pattern theology as either the only or best way to study the bible. 

Offline Talking Donkey

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Re: Under the Law
« Reply #64 on: Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 09:29:13 »
What does it mean to be under the law [Law]?  What does it mean to be not under the law [Law]?

Ask the people that drive ambulances, firetrucks and police cars.  They live there (they are not under traffic laws).

Peace

 

     
anything