Author Topic: Understanding the New Covenant  (Read 1616 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hobie

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2014
  • Manna: 18
Understanding the New Covenant
« on: Thu Jul 11, 2013 - 05:14:23 »
God created Adam and Eve as good but in the fall they, along with all mankind, began the downward spiral of corruption. It came to the point that God was sorry that He made man because their thoughts were now evil continually. God wants us to hear and obey Him as His children. What parent wouldn't want that?

Under the old covenant the Ten Commandments were given to control the actions of man.

The Ten Commandments carried a harsh consequence for breaking them. This brought fear upon the people to be obedient to them, at least outwardly.

Outward obedience is good but God is concerned with the heart. God is looking for a people to obey Him from the heart, not for fear of death or punishment.

The ministry of stone, regarding the Ten Commandments, was meant to bring life but instead they brought death. Why is this? Because the curse of the law, which followed the law on stone because of sin.

Sin brings about the curse of death from the law. It's not the law that brings the death, but rather, the sin.

Under the New Covenant Jesus took the curse away when He became sin and died on the cross. He did not take the law away for the law is holy and good, He took away the sin.

The law brings liberty to mankind. Without the law this world would be in total chaos. Life without law brings destruction and bondage of all kinds of
wickedness.

Once Jesus did away with the curse He freed us from the grip of the law, in other words, the law is no longer a threat to us who are in Christ. This frees
us up to obey the law from our own free will because we love and appreciate what God has done for us through His Son. In this, God is writing the law on our hearts, in other words, we are not obeying the law out of fear of death or punishment, but rather, we are obeying from the heart because of love and graditude, this is the New Covenant. God frees us from the grip of the law because of sin to allow us to freely obey the law because of love. In this, the law goes from stone to the heart.

Hebrews 8:10-13 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and
write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying,
`Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and
their lawless deeds I will remember no more.'' In that He says, "A new covenant,'' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and
growing old is ready to vanish away.

The Ten Commandments are the foundation of love for God and love for neighbor. The first four teaches us how to love God and the last six teaches us how to love others.

Religious man has no problem keeping the last six because in doing so he can receive glory but when we keep the first four, God and God alone receives the glory and Satan knows this. This is why you find all the confusion in the religious world when it comes to the first four.

The Ten Commandments are not to be a rigid law of bondage, but rather, the Spirit of God impresses us to live by them through love. Jesus brought this understanding to us in His life and in His teachings. He showed us that keeping the law for the sake of keeping the law was not what God was looking for. God is looking for a people to love Him and to love each other in which this love is manifested through keeping the law. In this, Jesus was magnifying the law and bringing honor to it.

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the
Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness' sake; He will
magnify the law and make it honorable.

The Ten Commandments are never done away with or changed under the New Covenant. What does happen under the New Covenant is that our relationship to the Ten Commandments changes. They go from a ministry of death and condemnation because of sin to a ministry joy and blessedness because of Christ's righteousness in us.

All of the Ten Commandments are a blessing to the man born of God. It's the carnal man that has the problem with God's law. All of God's Ten Commandments become a joy to the man of God because they please God and bring liberty to all.

Some will say that the fourth commandment no longer needs to be remembered but I say that is false. The fourth commandment is part of the ten on stone and is holy and good, which are the same that we obey from the heart.

God has sanctified and blessed the seventh day even before sin was in the world. Remembering to keep this day holy is a witness to the entire lost world as to which God you serve. God has protected the seventh day from all the false religions of the world. These religions keep Friday or Sunday because God has set apart the seventh day for His people.

Remembering to keep the seventh holy is showing loyalty to your God. Remembering to keep the seventh day holy is obedience to God. Keeping the seventh day holy opens the door for God to bless us.

Isaiah 58:13-4 "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure, and speaking your own word, Then you will take delight in the Lord, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; and I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

If, because of the Sabbath, you do these things God is open to freely bless, but to do away with it is to bring loss to God's people.

So if we look, under the New Covenant God forgives us of our sin through Christ, which does away with the guilt and condemnation brought upon us by the law because of sin. Then He writes that same law on our heart, in other words, the appreciation and love of God dwelling in us will cause us to obey out of our own free will, in this, the law becomes written on our heart.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jul 11, 2013 - 06:17:47 »
Hobie - AGAIN you have entirely missed the difference between requirements for Jewish believers and Gentile believers under the New Covenant.

Offline BlackSepulcher

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Manna: 5
  • Lantern in the Dark
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jul 11, 2013 - 06:38:03 »
Hobie - AGAIN you have entirely missed the difference between requirements for Jewish believers and Gentile believers under the New Covenant.

The Ten Commandments are self-evidently then, now, and forever.

Nothing in the New Covenant does away with them, they are all rather enforced further. Somewhere in the New Testament, every single commandment is held.

One may as well just throw away their Bible in thinking these rudiments no longer stand. It's asinine that anyone would ever think they are no longer binding, or only to a certain people or amount of time. 





Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jul 11, 2013 - 07:00:37 »
Quote from: BlackSepulcher link=topic=75640.msg1054843750#msg1054843750
The Ten Commandments are self-evidently then, now, and forever.

Nothing in the New Covenant does away with them, they are all rather enforced further. Somewhere in the New Testament, every single commandment is held.

True of all but the Sabbath. There is no re-iteration of that command.

But of greater import than the 10 commandments are the 4 commandments of Acts 15.  Those are binding on all gentile believers.

1  No idols
2  No fornication (pornia - basically anything that violates Torah sexual commands)
3  No eating strangled meat (understood to be meat not properly drained of blood)
4  No blood.  Could be taken as not eating any blood (but that is covered by #3) or no sex during menses (covered by #2). But from the Noachide Laws (which are very similar) this one would be: No shedding of innocent blood (no murder).

Hobie's reason for posting what he did is to insist that the Saturday sabbath is binding on gentile believers.  NOT SO.  Jewish believers - yes. (see Acts 21)  And it is that difference that he refuses to see because it colapses his doctrinal house of cards.

Rabbi Dan Juster ThD writes this in the upcoming Book of Mitzvot - A New Covenant Look at the 613 Torah Commands:

Quote
The issue of Sabbath is paradoxical for Gentiles:

    The Sabbath, as a day of rest on the seventh day, is never enjoined upon Gentiles in the New Covenant. Rabbinical Judaism defined it as part of Jewish-specific law, and part of God's Covenant with Israel - not universal law which is required of all people (i.e. the Noachide laws).
    The Sabbath principle is enjoined upon all, at least as a "rest of faith". (Hebrews 4:2-11).
    The passages in Isaiah 56 and 66 indicate a more universal observance in the Age to Come than in the Mosaic age. Isaiah 56 may only be referring to Gentiles who are called to live among the Jewish people, but Isaiah 66 may well imply a world-wide Sabbath day.
    In the light of the passages in Isaiah, it is certainly appropriate for Gentiles to keep one day in seven as unto the Lord when it is practically possible within their cultures (remember that there was no seven day week in the Roman world at the time the N.T. was being written). While it is appropriate for Gentiles in Messiah to take the seventh day as their day of rest (and possibly as an eschatological sign of the Age to Come), this does not mean that all Christian Congregations ought to gather for worship on Saturday. Sunday celebrations of the day of Resurrection are certainly appropriate and there is, in this age, a choice to make this the day of rest also, or to add Sabbath rest on the seventh day to the corporate gathering on Sunday, or move the Christian gathering to the seventh day and treat it as a day of rest as well. What is culturally feasible and best is an important factor in the choice, and is within the purview of New Covenant liberty.
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 11, 2013 - 07:06:35 by DaveW »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jul 11, 2013 - 07:00:37 »

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jul 11, 2013 - 09:42:31 »
Hobie - AGAIN you have entirely missed the difference between requirements for Jewish believers and Gentile believers under the New Covenant.

The Ten Commandments are self-evidently then, now, and forever.

Nothing in the New Covenant does away with them, they are all rather enforced further. Somewhere in the New Testament, every single commandment is held.

One may as well just throw away their Bible in thinking these rudiments no longer stand. It's asinine that anyone would ever think they are no longer binding, or only to a certain people or amount of time. 






Sorry but I have to disgree with you BlackSepulcher.

As Dave said the Sabbath Commandment is not in the New Covenant. Nor is the making of images (as opposed to the worship of idols).

I disagree with Dave in that I believe the 10 Commadments were done away with because the Sinai Covenant is finished. However I'm not going to get into an argument with him on that & I'll settle for not applicable to Gentiles.

I believe this is correct Catholic teaching.

The point is that we as Gentiles are not, and never have been, under the Jewish Law (Sinai Covenant).
« Last Edit: Thu Jul 11, 2013 - 09:44:53 by winsome »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jul 11, 2013 - 09:42:31 »

Offline Hobie

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2014
  • Manna: 18
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jul 13, 2013 - 15:12:48 »
Hobie - AGAIN you have entirely missed the difference between requirements for Jewish believers and Gentile believers under the New Covenant.
How do you read this verse...

Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Offline Beta

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2140
  • Manna: 126
  • Gender: Female
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #6 on: Sat Jul 13, 2013 - 16:03:31 »
Great OP Hobie - based on scripture that can not be refuted !!!
The 10 Commandments were given by GOD but could not be kept without the  Holy Spirit which comes from God.
But first 'sin had to be dealt with through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. When that was accomplished we (man) could receive the HS so we can keep the Commandments as Jesus did....for Jesus is the 'MEDIATOR between God and man. Jesus is doing a work for both.....to re-unite us through the law of LOVE....hence his commandment to love. But this does not replace the 10 which are a basic code of conduct for harmonious living and are  pleasing to God.

Offline Hobie

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2014
  • Manna: 18
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 05:10:58 »
Great OP Hobie - based on scripture that can not be refuted !!!
The 10 Commandments were given by GOD but could not be kept without the  Holy Spirit which comes from God.
But first 'sin had to be dealt with through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. When that was accomplished we (man) could receive the HS so we can keep the Commandments as Jesus did....for Jesus is the 'MEDIATOR between God and man. Jesus is doing a work for both.....to re-unite us through the law of LOVE....hence his commandment to love. But this does not replace the 10 which are a basic code of conduct for harmonious living and are  pleasing to God.
Otherwise we would be free to commit adultery, steal, kill,  worship idols....hmm.. now if there are some who wanted to do those things it would follow why they would say the Commandments are done away with.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 05:15:12 by Hobie »

Offline Beta

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2140
  • Manna: 126
  • Gender: Female
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 06:02:44 »
Hobie - AGAIN you have entirely missed the difference between requirements for Jewish believers and Gentile believers under the New Covenant.

Why do you keep making a ''distinction between Jew and Gentile ?
Have you not read Gal.3v28; In Christ we are all ONE !!!

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 06:02:44 »

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15980
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #9 on: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 07:45:05 »
Great OP Hobie - based on scripture that can not be refuted !!!
The 10 Commandments were given by GOD but could not be kept without the  Holy Spirit which comes from God.
But first 'sin had to be dealt with through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. When that was accomplished we (man) could receive the HS so we can keep the Commandments as Jesus did....for Jesus is the 'MEDIATOR between God and man. Jesus is doing a work for both.....to re-unite us through the law of LOVE....hence his commandment to love. But this does not replace the 10 which are a basic code of conduct for harmonious living and are  pleasing to God.
Otherwise we would be free to commit adultery, steal, kill,  worship idols....hmm.. now if there are some who wanted to do those things it would follow why they would say the Commandments are done away with.

The commandments are summed up by Christ as love. Love for God, love for others.

Some will understand that loving God with all their heart mind soul and strength and others as themselves means NOT doing what you list...others need the list to understand how not to transgress against their neighbor, and how to please God I guess.

So, no reason to make snarky accusations about "hmm.. now if there are some who wanted to do those things it would follow why they would say the Commandments are done away with"


Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #10 on: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 07:59:09 »
Hobie - AGAIN you have entirely missed the difference between requirements for Jewish believers and Gentile believers under the New Covenant.

Why do you keep making a ''distinction between Jew and Gentile ?
Have you not read Gal.3v28; In Christ we are all ONE !!!

One - like husband and wife.

It does not mean there is no distinction. It does not mean there are not different requirements. Wives do not "love your wives as Christ loved the Church;" nor do husbands "submit to your husbands."

To say that there are no different instructions is to deny most of scripture. Since it says in the same verse "neither male or female," it means that homosexuality is ok. Right?  WRONG!!!

If there are differing requirements for male and female, (like who they can marry) then there are also differing requirements for Jew and Gentile.  Same verse, remember.

Failure to grasp that basic point has led to endless hours and pages of discussion here; and this is just one website.

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #11 on: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 11:12:29 »
Hobie - AGAIN you have entirely missed the difference between requirements for Jewish believers and Gentile believers under the New Covenant.
How do you read this verse...

Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Absolutely NOTHING to do with the Ten Commandments.

As Jesus says, "salvation [Jesus] is from the Jews" (Jn 4:22).

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #12 on: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 11:22:56 »
Great OP Hobie - based on scripture that can not be refuted !!!
The 10 Commandments were given by GOD but could not be kept without the  Holy Spirit which comes from God.
But first 'sin had to be dealt with through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. When that was accomplished we (man) could receive the HS so we can keep the Commandments as Jesus did....for Jesus is the 'MEDIATOR between God and man. Jesus is doing a work for both.....to re-unite us through the law of LOVE....hence his commandment to love. But this does not replace the 10 which are a basic code of conduct for harmonious living and are  pleasing to God.
Otherwise we would be free to commit adultery, steal, kill,  worship idols....hmm.. now if there are some who wanted to do those things it would follow why they would say the Commandments are done away with.

I don't know how many times I've made this point to you Hobie and you NEVER answer it.

God's moral laws are eternal. For example murder was wrong from the very beginning, before Cain slew Abel. You cannot say that murder was OK until God gave the Jews the 10 Commandments. It is wrong now and it will always be wrong.

The 10 commandments were a codification/ implemementation of God's laws for the Jews as part of the Sinai Covenant. They included mostly moral laws, but also laws that were not about morality - Saturday Sabbath keeping and making images.

All the moral laws can be found in the New Covenant laws in the New Testament but there is nothing about Saturday Sabbath Keeping or prohibitions on the making of images.

I live in the UK. If I muder someone in the UK I am convicted under UK law. If I go to USA and murder someone I am convicted under the Law of the USA.

Christians are under the New Covenant and bound by New Covenant laws not the old laws of the Sinai Covenant.


Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #13 on: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 11:30:38 »
Hobie - AGAIN you have entirely missed the difference between requirements for Jewish believers and Gentile believers under the New Covenant.

Why do you keep making a ''distinction between Jew and Gentile ?
Have you not read Gal.3v28; In Christ we are all ONE !!!

Get your time frame correct. Gal 3:28 is NOW not at the time of the Sinai Covenant.

Paul describes the Jews and Gentiles as separated but then he says:
"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--   remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two," (Eph 2:13-15).

Paul is clearly saying that Jews and Gentiles were distinct and seperate but now Christ has brought us together.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 11:54:50 »
Paul is clearly saying that Jews and Gentiles were distinct and separate but now Christ has brought us together.

Gentiles have been brought in to greater Israel.  Grafted onto the olive tree of salvation (which is of the Jews)

While we are brought together; we still maintain distinctives.  Whenever a scripture says something to the effect of "made one," it is referring  back to man and woman becoming one.  (Genesis)  But even after becoming one, male and female remain distinctive from each other.

So it is with Jew and Gentile.

Offline Beta

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2140
  • Manna: 126
  • Gender: Female
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #15 on: Tue Jul 16, 2013 - 23:48:32 »
I am not speaking of our physical human distinctive roles in life which obviously there are -
but of our ''spiritual unity in Christ and with each other'' which does not allow for any division.
If we are being 'conformed to the image of Christ we become 'HIS spiritual copy' whether we are Jew or Gentile, male or female with 'differing human roles'.
We (man) is not yet completely 'transformed and find ourselves in a 'dual state'. We must learn to 'discern between the two. 

Offline Blueflame

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1342
  • Manna: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Peace,Love, and Hugs
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jul 17, 2013 - 00:25:52 »
Quote from: BlackSepulcher link=topic=75640.msg1054843750#msg1054843750
The Ten Commandments are self-evidently then, now, and forever.

Nothing in the New Covenant does away with them, they are all rather enforced further. Somewhere in the New Testament, every single commandment is held.

True of all but the Sabbath. There is no re-iteration of that command.

But of greater import than the 10 commandments are the 4 commandments of Acts 15.  Those are binding on all gentile believers.

1  No idols
2  No fornication (pornia - basically anything that violates Torah sexual commands)
3  No eating strangled meat (understood to be meat not properly drained of blood)
4  No blood.  Could be taken as not eating any blood (but that is covered by #3) or no sex during menses (covered by #2). But from the Noachide Laws (which are very similar) this one would be: No shedding of innocent blood (no murder).

Hobie's reason for posting what he did is to insist that the Saturday sabbath is binding on gentile believers.  NOT SO.  Jewish believers - yes. (see Acts 21)  And it is that difference that he refuses to see because it colapses his doctrinal house of cards.

Rabbi Dan Juster ThD writes this in the upcoming Book of Mitzvot - A New Covenant Look at the 613 Torah Commands:

Quote
The issue of Sabbath is paradoxical for Gentiles:

    The Sabbath, as a day of rest on the seventh day, is never enjoined upon Gentiles in the New Covenant. Rabbinical Judaism defined it as part of Jewish-specific law, and part of God's Covenant with Israel - not universal law which is required of all people (i.e. the Noachide laws).
    The Sabbath principle is enjoined upon all, at least as a "rest of faith". (Hebrews 4:2-11).
    The passages in Isaiah 56 and 66 indicate a more universal observance in the Age to Come than in the Mosaic age. Isaiah 56 may only be referring to Gentiles who are called to live among the Jewish people, but Isaiah 66 may well imply a world-wide Sabbath day.
    In the light of the passages in Isaiah, it is certainly appropriate for Gentiles to keep one day in seven as unto the Lord when it is practically possible within their cultures (remember that there was no seven day week in the Roman world at the time the N.T. was being written). While it is appropriate for Gentiles in Messiah to take the seventh day as their day of rest (and possibly as an eschatological sign of the Age to Come), this does not mean that all Christian Congregations ought to gather for worship on Saturday. Sunday celebrations of the day of Resurrection are certainly appropriate and there is, in this age, a choice to make this the day of rest also, or to add Sabbath rest on the seventh day to the corporate gathering on Sunday, or move the Christian gathering to the seventh day and treat it as a day of rest as well. What is culturally feasible and best is an important factor in the choice, and is within the purview of New Covenant liberty.

Its easier Dave just to preach the 2, Love God completely and love each other as are self. All the law can be held by keeping these 2.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jul 17, 2013 - 05:50:35 »
I am not speaking of our physical human distinctive roles in life which obviously there are -
but of our ''spiritual unity in Christ and with each other'' which does not allow for any division.
If we are being 'conformed to the image of Christ we become 'HIS spiritual copy' whether we are Jew or Gentile, male or female with 'differing human roles'. 

Do not over-spiritualize the situation.  The covenants of God deal with the whole person - spirit soul and body.  God created us to be physical beings and God deals with us as such.  We will be judged for what we do "in the body." (2 Corinthians 5:10) 

So the physical distinctives ARE important. We are NOT gnostics that ignore the physical in favor of the spiritual. We are equally concerned with BOTH. Those physical distinctives give us each certain roles and callings to fulfill. And as Rom 11.29 tells us, God does NOT change those roles and callings.

29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

As Paul testifies in several places, we are all one in Him. That is a unity of Spirit, not a uniformity of calling and practice.

Ephesians 4:3  being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Galatians 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 (YLT) where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, servant, freeman -- but the all and in all -- Christ.

These are all talking about the unity of Spirit - not that everyone has the same functional requirements. 

In 1 Cor 12 Paul describes the redeemed community as a "body" with hands, ears, eyes, etc. Does an eye do the same thing as a hand or foot?  Does a nose do the same thing as an ear?  Of course not. 

If you accept that, why not also accept the fact that Jews and gentiles have differing functions and requirements?

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #18 on: Wed Jul 17, 2013 - 08:38:14 »
I am not speaking of our physical human distinctive roles in life which obviously there are -
but of our ''spiritual unity in Christ and with each other'' which does not allow for any division.
If we are being 'conformed to the image of Christ we become 'HIS spiritual copy' whether we are Jew or Gentile, male or female with 'differing human roles'. 

Do not over-spiritualize the situation.  The covenants of God deal with the whole person - spirit soul and body.  God created us to be physical beings and God deals with us as such.  We will be judged for what we do "in the body." (2 Corinthians 5:10) 

So the physical distinctives ARE important. We are NOT gnostics that ignore the physical in favor of the spiritual. We are equally concerned with BOTH. Those physical distinctives give us each certain roles and callings to fulfill. And as Rom 11.29 tells us, God does NOT change those roles and callings.

29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

As Paul testifies in several places, we are all one in Him. That is a unity of Spirit, not a uniformity of calling and practice.

Ephesians 4:3  being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Galatians 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 (YLT) where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, servant, freeman -- but the all and in all -- Christ.

These are all talking about the unity of Spirit - not that everyone has the same functional requirements. 

In 1 Cor 12 Paul describes the redeemed community as a "body" with hands, ears, eyes, etc. Does an eye do the same thing as a hand or foot?  Does a nose do the same thing as an ear?  Of course not. 

If you accept that, why not also accept the fact that Jews and gentiles have differing functions and requirements?

Heb_8:13  When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

There are not two new covenants.

Also as Paul pointed out

Eph 2:14  For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
Eph 2:15  having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,


This says to me that the differences you try to impose simply are no longer there.
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 17, 2013 - 08:43:06 by Jimmy »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #19 on: Thu Jul 18, 2013 - 10:52:18 »
Jimmy - I am talking the NEW COVENANT.  Not the Mosaic.

Where did I say "two covenants?"

Offline winsome

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5612
  • Manna: 94
  • Gender: Male
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #20 on: Thu Jul 18, 2013 - 15:52:11 »
Jimmy - I am talking the NEW COVENANT.  Not the Mosaic.

Where did I say "two covenants?"

Dave,

I'm a bit confused as to where you stand regarding the Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant.

There are other things I'm probably confused about regarding Messianic Judaism but if you could give me a quick explanation of how you regard those two covenants I would appreciate it.

Thanks

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17574
  • Manna: 201
  • Gender: Male
  • carrying Torah scroll
Re: Understanding the New Covenant
« Reply #21 on: Fri Jul 19, 2013 - 10:23:11 »
Dave,

I'm a bit confused as to where you stand regarding the Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant.

There are other things I'm probably confused about regarding Messianic Judaism but if you could give me a quick explanation of how you regard those two covenants I would appreciate it.

Thanks
Not an easy task for the limited forum format.

And while it is certainly a closely related topic; it is probably enough off-topic as to derail this conversation.  I will start another thread with your question and my reply when I get a chance.

==============================================

I have added it to the Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions under the title of Messianic Judaism and the Mosaic Covenat vs the New Covenant

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/organized-religion-and-religious-movements-discussions/messianic-judaism-and-the-mosaic-covennat-vs-the-new-covenant/msg1054845628/#msg1054845628
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 19, 2013 - 12:05:43 by DaveW »