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Author Topic: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin  (Read 2922 times)

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Offline LightHammer

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #35 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 18:14:39 »
Quote
Was Augustine a "mystic" in his theology? In the ancient world the intellect context was Greek.
Augustine, the theologian of the early centuries was the theological father of the Roman Catholic Church;
equally the father of Protestantism.
He was a Greek thinking man, who was a follower of Mani in his early years.

St. Augustine was the Bishop of Hippo in Africa and died 20 years before 451. The Roman Catholic Church was/is the church in the west under the immediate leadership of the Roman patrichate and Pope. Hippo was in Africa and since this was before the Council of Chalcedon, St. Augustine's Pope was the Bishop of Alexandria the All African Patriarchate. His name was St. Cyril I.

St. Augustine was a Father of a Church that had no Roman, Eastern or African divisions so please get it right.

St. Augustine, a Bishop of Africa, being the Father of a European miltant revolution more than 1000 years after him is about the silliest statement I have ever heard btw.

You might as well say St. Anthony the Great was the Savior of western civilization.

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #35 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 18:14:39 »

Offline Volkmar

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #36 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 18:26:52 »
Volkmar,

Quote
agree that much of the interpretive content of what RC and many Protestants understand concerning Original Sin is to be credited to Augustine.  However, my argument was that the concept was within the understanding of Christians well before Augustine.  The OP of this discussion thread denigrated the very concept of “original/ancestral sin”
The save and better distinction is that the word was the same, but the concept is far from the same. The concept is what is defined and what each group believes is vastly different.

This is true of many other words as well. Protestants may use the same word, but have totally different meanings to it, for example, the atonement.


Quote
Your understanding of this subject is certainly more precise than mine.  I’m appreciative of the illumination you bring to the discussion.  For my benefit, if no one else’s, would you expand on this, please;


I am assuming you would like clarification on the following....


Quote
Augustine did originate the RCC and protestant understanding or interpretation of "Original Sin"  Augustine did not argue the same meaning of Original Sin as was Irenaeus.  You will grossly confuse yourself if you think they are the same.

That single error has led most protestants to completely deny the content of the Incarnation.  They will give recognition to the term and definition but none of their theology has any content of the Incarnation.  In fact, most of it will directly contradict the Incarnation of Christ.

The content of the Incarnation is that Christ became man in order to defeat Satan and the power of death that Satan used to control this world. Heb 2:14, I John 3:8.  Thus Christ by becoming man, assuming our fallen human nature through the Virgin Mary, was able to defeat death by His resurrection when our human nature that He possessed was raised from the dead.  It is why and how all of us, mankind, will be raised from the  dead. It is why Christians believe in the resurrection of the dead. 


The texts which support the Incarnation,or universal redemption or in the early Church the word recapitulation was used  are: Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22. John 6:39, Rev 20:13.

This is why Christ is called the Savior of the world, John 4:42. It is the work of Christ to reconcile the world back to God, II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20 because man cannot do this work.  Christ literally saved every single human being and the world from death. He freed everthing from the bondage to death and sin.  This is a physical death, not a spiritual one.  It is why we will be raised, be immortal, incorruptible for an eternity, every single human being. This is why heaven and hell are even a necessity. If Christ had not redeemed the world, everything else is moot. We would simply dissolve into dust, and cease to exist as human beings.

Christ needed to do this because we are unable to do it. But He did it so that He and man could get about doing the work we were created to do in an eternal existence.  That was to be freely in a union of communion, which scripture calls our salvation, our personal salvation, by and through faith.

Now, all protestants will generally deny all of this above and go directly to the saving by faith, but will say that it was Christ that saved us. They will say that one cannot add to Christ's work, which is true, but it is not relevant to our mutual relationship which is premised on working with God, Not eliminating it. It is the whole reason why we exist, and why Christ saved the world from Satan and death.

Other doctrines that are denied, scripturally, theologically when the content of the Incarnation is denied are: Christ's human nature, the atonement, the resurrection of the dead, the existence of hell and heaven.

This is scriptural, theological, and historical Incarnational theology. It has existed from the beginning. There was never a time in all of Christianity that the Incarnation did not exist or this understanding.



Precisely.  Yes.  This is consistent with my present understanding.  It makes sense and makes sense of many seeming "contradictions" often pointed out.

I would only add to your last statement this; "There has never been a time when the mystery of Christ has not been in play."


V

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #36 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 18:26:52 »

Offline gospel

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #37 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 19:38:17 »
Looking at just the first two pages of the Theology forum, I see the word "grace" in the title of at ten different threads. 

Also-- the topics of predestination, elect, appointed-- that is, all things calvinistic, are showing up in increasingly nauseating frequency. 
Calvinism is apostasy. 


In partial agreement only here.............actually what is Calvinist about them is the Calvinist interpertation of them.  The terms are Biblical, and I don't find the Word of God to be "nauseating."  Just me though.

 ::reading:: ::prayinghard::

Well when I first began to post here and until recently for the life of me I could not understand how the forum was named GRACE CENTERED when just about every post was LAW CENTERED

Perhaps the plethora of threads related to Grace are only the fulfillment of the name of the forum or a backlash against the Spirit of heaviness that is has been so prevalent or a combination of both

BTW many of you need to get a grasp of Grace, after all GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus and it is the Gospel!

Grace has brought us safe thus far and Grace will lead us home   ::smile:: ::choir:: ::choir::


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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #37 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 19:38:17 »

Memphis Dwight

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #38 on: Wed Feb 22, 2012 - 07:05:00 »
Problem is, Gospel, the verbiage you toss about when speaking about grace does not line up with the bible. 

Put simply and not confusing, grace means that God made a decision to send Christ to earth to die so that we can partake of His sacrifice for our sins by being baptized.  This decision was not made based on anything that mankind did to deserve it.  That, in a nutshell, is grace. 

Grace does not cancel out our freewill.
Grace does not negate the necessity of being baptized. 
Grace does not cover the refractory sinner, the sinner refusing to repent. 

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #38 on: Wed Feb 22, 2012 - 07:05:00 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #39 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 13:45:44 »
Problem is, Gospel, the verbiage you toss about when speaking about grace does not line up with the bible. 

Put simply and not confusing, grace means that God made a decision to send Christ to earth to die so that we can partake of His sacrifice for our sins by being baptized.  This decision was not made based on anything that mankind did to deserve it.  That, in a nutshell, is grace. 

Grace does not cancel out our freewill.
Grace does not negate the necessity of being baptized. 
Grace does not cover the refractory sinner, the sinner refusing to repent. 

Very well stated, Amen.

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #39 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 13:45:44 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #40 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 17:25:35 »
Quote
Was Augustine a "mystic" in his theology? In the ancient world the intellect context was Greek.
Augustine, the theologian of the early centuries was the theological father of the Roman Catholic Church;
equally the father of Protestantism.
He was a Greek thinking man, who was a follower of Mani in his early years.

St. Augustine was the Bishop of Hippo in Africa and died 20 years before 451. The Roman Catholic Church was/is the church in the west under the immediate leadership of the Roman patrichate and Pope. Hippo was in Africa and since this was before the Council of Chalcedon, St. Augustine's Pope was the Bishop of Alexandria the All African Patriarchate. His name was St. Cyril I.

St. Augustine was a Father of a Church that had no Roman, Eastern or African divisions so please get it right.

St. Augustine, a Bishop of Africa, being the Father of a European miltant revolution more than 1000 years after him is about the silliest statement I have ever heard btw.

You might as well say St. Anthony the Great was the Savior of western civilization.
Mmmmmm... Augustine was west enough that even if he was subordinate to Alexandria, he was married to Rome.

Jarrod

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #40 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 17:25:35 »

Offline gospel

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #41 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 18:39:08 »
Quote
Put simply and not confusing, grace means that God made a decision to send Christ to earth to die so that we can partake of His sacrifice for our sins by being baptized.

Once you added what we have to do ...YOU just negated Grace!


First of all "water" baptism is not the only type of baptism....

If you read the words of John the Baptizer, you can see he looked forward to a different Baptism, the Baptism that Jesus was to bring not the same one he was doing  ::frown::

But that's okay, you can ignore all the other types of baptism and keep focused on water because you're missing yet another point which is this;

You could easily exchange "water" baptism for a variety of other "qualifying" works

Using your sentence lets look at what I mean


God made a decision to send Christ to earth to die so that we can partake of His sacrifice

for our sins by
________________


Fill in the blank with anything you like

Here are some other options starting with your own 1st here are some other things we can do to add to what Jesus has done

being baptized in water

bringing a lamb as an offering

going outside the camp for 7 days

fasting

praying

offering a bullock

wearing sack clothe and ashes

mourning aloud

wailing aloud

crying aloud

Just so you know

The only thing that correctly fits in the blank is BELIEVING

The reason I know that is because Jesus said it

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and
only Son.
John 3:18

And John the Baptist reiterated it

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36


John preached that Jesus would bring a baptism different than water, clearly He understood what a lot of you do not because

Sadly a lot of you ignore what he said

Luke 3:16 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire

Translation for the hearing impaired

 ::announcment:: I BAPTIZE WITH WATER BUT........

HE WILL BAPTIZE YOU WITH SOMETHING DIFFERENT


John may as well said what I am doing is nothing in comparison to what He will do!

I'm just using water BUT ......HE WILL BAPTIZE YOU WITH SOMETHING MUCH BETTER!

John 3:30

International Standard Version (©2008)
He must become more important, but I must become less important."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
It is necessary for him to increase and for me to decrease.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He must increase in importance, while I must decrease in importance.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
He must increase, but I must decrease.


Translation for the hearing impaired

 ::announcment::  I and what I am doing must decrease

He and what He will do MUST INCREASE

Think people...think!

You're adding increase to the wrong ministry...you should be focused on
HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE!

« Last Edit: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 18:51:37 by gospel »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #42 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 09:30:09 »
Is John 3:16-18/36 all Jesus said or did He also say Mark 16:15,16 pick and chose my brother pick and chose that is the way to learn today

p.rehbein

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #43 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 11:24:51 »
. Revelation 12:11 “And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood
of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony …

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #43 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 11:24:51 »

p.rehbein

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #44 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 11:28:07 »
Romans 4:13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.  14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:……………………….20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;  21) And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able to perform.  22) And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.  23) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25) Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


Romans 5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Romans 9:31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained  to the law of righteousness.  32) Wherefore?  Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.  For they stumbled at the stumblingstone;


Romans 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth……………………..9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved……………..13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?  And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?  and how shall they hear without a preacher?

p.rehbein

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Re: Mysticism/Augustine/Calvin
« Reply #45 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 11:30:43 »
Matthew 15:7) Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.  9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men………………………28) Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith; be it unto thee even as thou wilt.  And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

 
Matthew 17:19) Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?  20)  And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief; for verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.


Matthew 21:21) Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.  22) And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.


Matthew 23:3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.  4) For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.  5) But all their works they do for to be seen of men; they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments.

 

     
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