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Offline Reformer

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We Have Turned Things Backwards
« on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 14:18:19 »
REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
_______________________________
 
Special Notes On What Follows

    Some of you probably remember an author and Christian columnist by the name of Edward Fudge. He passed on to eternal glory three years ago. During his stay on earth, he published a book in 1982 under the title, “The Fire That Consumes,” wherein he advocated that eternal punishment is not and never will be endless torture.

    I bought a copy of that book when it first became available, and it turned out to be a “change agent” for me on the subject of conscious endless torture. In one of Edward’s weekly columns, he authored one in particular that captured my attention. I want to share it with you today. Please do me a favor and not only read it, but evaluate it prudently.—Buff

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We Have Turned Things Backwards
 
EDWARD FUDGE

    It has been said that somewhere around A. D. 300, demon hordes gathered in emergency meeting to discuss how to hinder the Gospel’s spread and to impede Christ’s kingdom. Satan presided and received proposals. “Let’s persecute these Christians,” one demon suggested. “It won’t help,” another replied. “The more we persecute them, the more they increase.”
 
    Other suggestions followed—discouragement, false doctrine, internal strife. Each suggestion was discarded as being ineffective. Finally an enterprising demon spoke up. “Let’s make the Christian movement popular and wealthy,” he said. “Entice these Christians to abandon the catacombs, houses and marketplaces. Encourage them to build fine church buildings. When they have all gone inside, lock the doors and their progress will fade into oblivion.”
 
    This make-believe story is reality in its truest form. Jesus charged his followers to “go make disciples,” adding the promise, “I am with you always.” But somewhere along the way, we seem to have forgotten his words, or to have become confused. “Come to us,” we now say, from the safe security of our church buildings.
 
    What has happened to turn things backwards? Has the institutional church obscured the spiritual kingdom? Has maintenance replaced mission? Has head knowledge become disconnected from heart passion? Has Christ’s commission given way to church culture and comfort? Do our congregational budgets and church calendars provide any clues? Why is most of our money and time as church now spent in seeking and serving the saved?

 
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    MY OBSERVATIONS— We are overly organized, needlessly ritualistic, excessively formalistic, and unduly mechanical. The activities, movements, and efforts of the first believers were unskilled, ordinary, unsophisticated, and informal—although serious and edifying. Our contemporary arrangement is perplexing, rehearsed, organized to the brim, ritualistic, formalistic, boring, and mechanical.

    The world keeps hanging, if only by a thread, waiting for “Christians” to toss it the lifejacket of salvation. But no! Institutional religion is too busy keeping her churches and organizations afloat to bother with the Great Commission. Millions are waiting for someone to bring them the message of salvation, but she sits around creating more organizations to implement the ones that have already become dormant and stale. Until the modern church becomes more interested in more people, she will remain out of the people business.—Buff.

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We Have Turned Things Backwards
« on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 14:18:19 »

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #1 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 15:14:09 »
You may have a point.   As James Madison put it:

"Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy."
James Madison, #7, Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments

Offline Reformer

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #2 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 20:34:47 »
The Barbarian:

   Good quotation from James Madison, my brother, regarding contemporary "Christianity." Abraham Lincoln had some insightful thoughts on this matter as well. You can find them on Google. If you can't find them, I have them in my files.

    Below is a copy of a letter from one of my readers similar to what we are talking about.

    Big thumbs up, brother. The Lord “allowed” me to “pastor” a small Baptist church in east Texas for 4 years. They were not interested in the lost, the orphan, the widow, or the new sojourner in the community, but raised holy “hell” over the curtains, carpet, and parking lot. I resigned and have been ministering solo with my wife since.

Buff
 

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #2 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 20:34:47 »

Offline The Barbarian

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 21:28:24 »
The Barbarian:

   Good quotation from James Madison, my brother, regarding contemporary "Christianity." Abraham Lincoln had some insightful thoughts on this matter as well. You can find them on Google. If you can't find them, I have them in my files.

    Below is a copy of a letter from one of my readers similar to what we are talking about.

    Big thumbs up, brother. The Lord “allowed” me to “pastor” a small Baptist church in east Texas for 4 years. They were not interested in the lost, the orphan, the widow, or the new sojourner in the community, but raised holy “hell” over the curtains, carpet, and parking lot. I resigned and have been ministering solo with my wife since.

It's really hard for an organization to keep the Holy Spirit operative within it.    Organizations, by their very nature, tend to be not spiritual.    Sorry about your experience; I'm not a Baptist, but I know there are Baptist churches that manage to do it as Jesus would approve.   Don't give up on it; your vocation might be a solo ministry, but don't close a door that God might want to open for you.

 

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #3 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 21:28:24 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #4 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 22:49:50 »
The Lord “allowed” me to “pastor” a small Baptist church in east Texas for 4 years. They were not interested in the lost, the orphan, the widow, or the new sojourner in the community, but raised holy “hell” over the curtains, carpet, and parking lot. I resigned and have been ministering solo with my wife since.
That story sounds familiar.

The most engaged group I ever taught was a group of homeless.  We met at the local YMCA in a room that was probably meant for Jazzercize.

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #4 on: Sun Nov 29, 2020 - 22:49:50 »



Online RB

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #5 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 04:22:38 »
Special Notes On What Follows
Or, If I may, special thoughts on your post~but, you may not think my thoughts are too special, but that's okay with me, as long as God approves.
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 14:18:19
Some of you probably remember an author and Christian columnist by the name of Edward Fudge. He passed on to eternal glory three years ago.
Bluff, do you really know much about Edward Fudge? He was a SDA that believe in soul sleep for the believer. So he would not even accept your conclusion about his life after death! He certainly did not pass on to eternal glory by his rejection of the THAT TRUTH. At least, I would find it hard to be the one that said that he did. WHY would God allow a person to pass on to eternal glory at death who preached AGAINST it? That's one thought concerning your post~ here's another:
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 14:18:19
Why is most of our money and time as church now spent in seeking and serving the saved?
Because that's the very purpose as to why God left us here to serve ONE ANOTHER, edify ONE ANOTHER, feed one another truth, and to spend our energy in seeking out God's elect, those whom he has regenerated by his Spirit!
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 21:15-17~"So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Jesus could have only said this once and the message would have been very clear as to Peter's calling as an apostle, but to leave no doubt as to a child of God's calling, Jesus said three times to Peter FEED MY SHEEP, not to go after goats and wines, etc.
Quote from: Paul KNEW his calling
2nd Timothy 2:10~"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."
The salvation in this scripture is salvation of true biblical KNOWLEDGE of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. So many others could be given.
Quote
The Lord “allowed” me to “pastor” a small Baptist church in east Texas for 4 years. They were not interested in the lost, the orphan, the widow, or the new sojourner in the community, but raised holy “hell” over the curtains, carpet, and parking lot. I resigned and have been ministering solo with my wife since.
Well now, that's what happens when people who call themselves "a church" think that their calling is to be interested in the lost.......... or the new sojourner in the community! That's going after strange flesh, you end up bringing tares in among the wheat!
Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 14:18:19
The world keeps hanging, if only by a thread, waiting for “Christians” to toss it the lifejacket of salvation.
You got to be kidding! If not, then YOU are being used to create this monster you are describing!
Quote from: Paul
1st Corinthians 1:18-31~For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on: Yesterday at 22:49:50
That story sounds familiar.

The most engaged group I ever taught was a group of homeless.  We met at the local YMCA in a room that was probably meant for Jazzercize.
Why do you think that was so? Give folks food and a place to live free and they will put up with you speaking to them, and seemly will give hear, but it will not last very long.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 6:26~"Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled."
Quote from:  Reformer on: Yesterday at 14:18:19
We Have Turned Things Backwards
Yes, MOST have!

« Last Edit: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 04:30:54 by RB »

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #5 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 04:22:38 »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #6 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 11:27:40 »
RB said
Quote
Bluff, do you really know much about Edward Fudge? He was a SDA . . .

Nope.  https://christianchronicle.org/edward-fudge-controversial-scholar-topic-hell-dies-73/

Offline Reformer

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #7 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 11:50:08 »

Barbarian:

    Say, the quotation I inserted in my reply to you yesterday is not me. It is from one of my Baptist readers.

Buff

Offline Reformer

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #8 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 12:08:39 »

Mere Nick:

   Another brother told me Edward Fudge was a Seventh Day Adventist. I connected to your Link and found nothing in it that references your claim, unless I overlooked it.

    Too, I went to Google and as yet have found nothing that identifies him as a Seventh Day Adventist. If you have something else on this claim besides what you offered, contact me.

Buff

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #8 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 12:08:39 »

Offline Reformer

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #9 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 12:17:24 »

RB:

    In regards to Fudge being a Seventh Day Adventist, please supply me the information. Where may I find it?

    I knew Edward for decades, but I do not ever recall he was identified with the SDA sect. I occasionally disagreed with him on a few biblical matters, but he always came over to me as a born again believer.

Buff

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #10 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 12:29:44 »
The documentary "Hell and Mr Fudge" was made by SDA's, although he wasn't.  SDA's hold similar views on hell as Fudge.

https://www.adventistreview.org/2012-1526-18 

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #11 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 13:08:43 »
Buff,  from the fourth paragraph of the article I linked:   "Fudge, a member of the Bering Drive Church of Christ in Houston, . . . "

Nick

Offline Reformer

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #12 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 13:14:10 »
Mere Nick:

    The Bering Drive Church of Christ is not Seventh Day Adventist. They are widely separated from each other.

Buff

Offline Reformer

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #13 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 13:18:20 »

Texas Conservative:

   Good clarification. True, as far as I can find, Edward was not a SDA. His church association was the non-instrumental music Church of Christ.

Buff

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #14 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 13:30:26 »
Mere Nick:

    The Bering Drive Church of Christ is not Seventh Day Adventist. They are widely separated from each other.

Buff

Nick was not disagreeing with you.

Offline Reformer

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #15 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 13:40:01 »
Texas Conservative:

You're right. Nick said "Nope" to RB's assertion. My mistake.

Buff

Online RB

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #16 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 14:06:12 »
RB said
Nope.  https://christianchronicle.org/edward-fudge-controversial-scholar-topic-hell-dies-73/
Sorry, I had another person from the SDA that I read behind about six months or so with a similar name, I'll see if I can remember him. Edward "SOMEONE".

Online RB

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #17 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 14:07:33 »
The documentary "Hell and Mr Fudge" was made by SDA's, although he wasn't.  SDA's hold similar views on hell as Fudge.

https://www.adventistreview.org/2012-1526-18
Maybe that's where I read it.

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #18 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 14:15:37 »
RB said
Nope.  https://christianchronicle.org/edward-fudge-controversial-scholar-topic-hell-dies-73/
Nick, I actually believe as Fudge did on the topic of a burning hell now present where the wicked go at death~  yet DIFFERENTLY than the SDA, because they believe that even BELIEVER'S soul sleep until the resurrection, much like the great Martin Luther did~great in that he stood up against the RCC almost alone. 
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 12:51:08 by RB »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #19 on: Mon Nov 30, 2020 - 23:19:06 »
Sometimes when I was a kid and watching a western or war movie with my dad and brothers, I'd usually fall asleep.  I'd wake up in the morning where I was supposed to be.  There was no way of knowing how much time had passed unless I went and looked at a clock.  That's why I'm fine with either soul sleep or an alternative because it appears it will seem the same. 

Online RB

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #20 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 03:52:37 »
Sometimes when I was a kid and watching a western or war movie with my dad and brothers, I'd usually fall asleep.  I'd wake up in the morning where I was supposed to be.  There was no way of knowing how much time had passed unless I went and looked at a clock.  That's why I'm fine with either soul sleep or an alternative because it appears it will seem the same.
Well read Luther's teaching on it and that's basically the manner in which he came to his conclusion, but with the righteous it is not so, to be absent from the body is to be PRESENT with the Lord.
Quote from: JOHN the beloved apostle of Jesus Christ
Revelation 20:4,5~"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
If a person is ever born again ( the first resurrection ) then that person has ETERNAL LIFE and shall never die in the true sense of death and in every sense of death, except physical.
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
John 11:25,26~"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, ( spiritually~RB ) yet shall he live: ( not even death of our bodies can separate us from Christ...Romans 8:38~RB ) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Yes, Lord Jesus, I DO.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 12:50:19 by RB »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: We Have Turned Things Backwards
« Reply #21 on: Tue Dec 01, 2020 - 10:30:09 »
Either way, RB, we won't know the difference.  I have no argument with what you have posted about it.