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son of God
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« on: November 01, 2009, 04:16:12 PM »

Kingdom of Heven, and kingdom of God.  Are they different?  Or are they the same?  I hold that they are different, and their useage and application in the Word is significant.  Similar to the difference between seed and seeds; sin and sins; god and gods; of the faith and of the elect, etc..  If we see no significant difference in these things, we muddy up the Word and appropriate it incorrectly for varied and untenable positiions on said topics.  This results in not only our understandings being affected, but possibly even how we yet live them out, for as a man thinks, so is he.

I'm yet learning on this topic, and don't profess to have great insight into it, although I think that I have the rudiments so far.  I would like to dialogue and learn from others on this one, tossing in my two cents worth from time to time.
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« on: November 01, 2009, 04:16:12 PM »

 
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Lame Ranger
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 05:11:12 PM »

Hi son of God
Quote
Kingdom of Heven, and kingdom of God.  Are they different?  Or are they the same? 

I would have to vote for 'the same.' I get that from these two verses:

Matthew 11:11
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

But you are saying we should use each term in specific circumstances? I didn't get what you meant there.

LR

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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 05:11:12 PM »

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soterion
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 05:13:13 PM »

I believe the two terms are used interchangeably.

In Matthew 4:17 Jesus preached repentance because the kingdom of heaven was at hand.  In Mark 1:15 it is the kingdom of God.

In Matthew 13:11 Jesus told the disciples that to them has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.  In Mark 4:11 it is the kingdom of God.

In Matthew 13:31-32 the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed.  In Mark 4:30-32 it is the kingdom of God that is like a mustard seed.

Notice especially in Matthew 19:23-24 that the two terms appear to be used interchangeably.

Matthew is the only one who uses the term "kingdom of heaven."  I don't see him talking about a different kingdom, but rather using a different way to say it than the other writers.

I believe the kingdom is made up of people (but I do not believe the church is the whole of the kingdom).  To me, "kingdom of heaven" means "citizens of heaven" and "kingdom of God" means "children of God."  In both cases we are describing the same people but in different relationships (the former "of heaven" and the latter "of God").
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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 05:17:30 PM »


Dear soG, there is a kingdom of God in heaven, and a kingdom of God on the earth. There are earthly blessings, and heavenly blessings in Christ. There is the earthly ministry of Christ, and the heavenly rule of Him; both offices are a part of the kingdom of God. There is the Kingdom or Millennial Age consisting of both earthly and heavenly portions of the kingdom of God.

And then we read in 1 Corinthians 15:24. “Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” This will be when Jesus renders the entire kingdom back to the Father after having ruled for a thousand years.

I might add that there were kingdom apostles who will sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, and then there was Paul looking to win Christ as his bridegroom; both seeking different places in the kingdom. I won't yet address the other portions of your thread as this will probably stir up enough emotion as it is.
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 05:46:24 PM »

(Dan 2:44)  And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

(Dan 2:45)  Because you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it crushes the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what shall occur after this. And the dream is certain, and its meaning is sure.



(Rev 12:9)  And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

(Rev 12:10)  And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.



(Mar 16:19)  Then indeed, after speaking to them, the Lord was taken up into Heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.



(Mat 6:33)  But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.


(Mat 12:28)  But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.


(Luk 17:20)  And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation.

(Luk 17:21)  Nor shall they say, Lo here! or, behold, there! For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.


Matt. 11:11 and Luke 7:28 are applied to the same situation, as is done in regard to little children, kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God, and so on.  But does that make them one and the same?  Is there then no difference?

"I and my Father are one.  The Father is greater than I."  Same thing? 
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 10:40:39 PM »

Kingdom of Heven, and kingdom of God.  Are they different?  Or are they the same?  I hold that they are different, and their useage and application in the Word is significant.  Similar to the difference between seed and seeds; sin and sins; god and gods; of the faith and of the elect, etc..  If we see no significant difference in these things, we muddy up the Word and appropriate it incorrectly for varied and untenable positiions on said topics.  This results in not only our understandings being affected, but possibly even how we yet live them out, for as a man thinks, so is he.

I'm yet learning on this topic, and don't profess to have great insight into it, although I think that I have the rudiments so far.  I would like to dialogue and learn from others on this one, tossing in my two cents worth from time to time.

They are the same. Since you think they are different can you please give some supporting evidence?
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And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: “Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Justin Martyr

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life”

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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 10:40:39 PM »

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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 11:59:00 PM »

They are the same. "Kingdom of the heavens" is Matthew's preferred phrase -- heaven being a Jewish metaphor for God. Luke uses the more plainly stated "Kingdom of God" most of the time.

There is no significant difference in the meaning of these phrases. The kingdom of God is the range of God's effective will. Jesus came to announce its availability to us -- the "kingdom is near" (Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15).
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 12:03:44 AM »

This is one of the rare times that I've put forth a position on something, when I'm yet trying to grasp it foundationally.  There are obvious reasons for not doing this.  The reason for it was that I wanted input on it.  So far, so good.  Currently, I've been given enough responses on it to consider myself wrong.  I will continue to ponder it, as there are some aspects of it that I don't know what to do with yet.  Until then, I will hold them to myself, as I see it counterproductive to table them at this point, whether they be right or wrong.  Kind of unsure where to go on it at this point, which is good, really, as I think it good to ponder and have others point out issues to correct one's self on, so it will simmer for a while.  I see great merit in the posts given.  Thanks, y'all.
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 10:05:08 AM »

They are the same. "Kingdom of the heavens" is Matthew's preferred phrase -- heaven being a Jewish metaphor for God. Luke uses the more plainly stated "Kingdom of God" most of the time.

There is no significant difference in the meaning of these phrases. The kingdom of God is the range of God's effective will. Jesus came to announce its availability to us -- the "kingdom is near" (Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15).

Mike, I was about to write the same thing.  The Jews are careful to not use the name of God in vain and thus often use other words like "heaven" to allude to God without stating such plainly.  The kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of God.

blessings,
Sherman
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"Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:14 & 15

If interested the following link will is to a thread with my beliefs on Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,20182.0.html
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« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 10:05:08 AM »

 
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N8te720
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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 02:28:26 PM »

The Kingdom of Heaven is heaven, but is actually referring to earth because earth will become the kingdom of Heaven. The kingdom of God is everything from the kingdom of Heaven, to infinite space. If God is ruler of all things, then all things are in his kingdom.
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« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 02:28:26 PM »

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Volkmar
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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 09:10:30 PM »

No difference. 


V
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2009, 03:41:43 AM »

Kingdom of Heven, and kingdom of God.  Are they different?  Or are they the same?  I hold that they are different, and their useage and application in the Word is significant.  Similar to the difference between seed and seeds; sin and sins; god and gods; of the faith and of the elect, etc..  If we see no significant difference in these things, we muddy up the Word and appropriate it incorrectly for varied and untenable positiions on said topics.  This results in not only our understandings being affected, but possibly even how we yet live them out, for as a man thinks, so is he.

I'm yet learning on this topic, and don't profess to have great insight into it, although I think that I have the rudiments so far.  I would like to dialogue and learn from others on this one, tossing in my two cents worth from time to time.

It the same!
God's kingdom is heaven
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Jn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 01:02:11 PM »

The two terms are indeed, interchangeable though there are a few NT passages that seem to imply some difference based on our perception of locality.

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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 01:02:11 PM »

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