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Author Topic: What does it mean  (Read 2172 times)

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Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #35 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 09:57:08 »
God breathed (inSPIRITED) into the Prophet and they:
      Repudiated the Monarchy to which God abandoned the Jews
      Defined the practices of those NOT of the Civil-Military-Clergy
      Jacob cursed the tribe of Levi and commanded that people not attend their assemblies or enter into their covenant. Paul affirms that the Covenant made with Abraham had never ceased. The Law given because of transgression was a laded burden which Jesus removed.



A Church of Christ is built upon the Prophets and Apostles.  Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 deny that God needed to be "fed" and "entertained".  Isaiah 1 is a Prophetic Type which Jesus obeyed before He was "sanctified and sent".  You may be 99 44/100 percent pure but you cannot serve in a "priestly role" until you accept the sacrifice and go through the laver which I believe was about 7 feet deep. 

The eunuch probably had an Isaiah Scroll copies of which still exist. 

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him:
         for he that cometh [active] to God MUST BELIEVE that he is,
         AND that he is a rewarder of them that diligently SEEK him.

There can be no debate which makes all of Scripture a lie because here is what HAPPENS.

The Word or Logos is God's Regulative Principle which MARKS Self-Righteousness in doing HARD and EXPENSIVE work such as rhetoric, singing, acting, talking about your experiences or opinions.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his WORD were baptized:
          and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.






NOTICE THAT ISAIAH 1 IS PARALLEL TO MARK 16:15-16.  One is NOT devoured or condemned UNTIL they become a Believeth-Not which is APISTOS as the MARK of people DENYING the effectiveness of the PATTERN of Jesus.  Believeth-Nots say "I do NOT have to comply or I WILL NOT comply."

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #35 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 09:57:08 »

Offline RB

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #36 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 15:14:29 »
John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Very simple~the sense is ALL men without distinction~not as you believe, all men without exceptions.

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #36 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 15:14:29 »

Online 4WD

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #37 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 17:19:59 »
Very simple~the sense is ALL men without distinction~not as you believe, all men without exceptions.
The words without distinctionare not in that verse.  Once again you have to alter the meaning of the passage to make it fit your false theology.  It is as I have said here several times before, it is not what God has said that is the problem, rather it is what someone thinks God meant when He said it.  I understand the sense that you refer to, but that still does not require that one be born again in order to believe [have faith] in Christ.

And if you are interested to know what God meant in John 6:44, you might read the next verse.  There He says, "It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me-- ".  This is quite in line with Paul's declaration of where faith comes from: "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ" (Rom 10:17). Faith comes not from being born again, but rather from hearing the about Christ. 

It is of interest that not all who are drawn necessarily will come.  For in that same passage, Paul records God's lament: "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people." (v.21).

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #37 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 17:19:59 »

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #38 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 17:40:05 »
Repeating for those who will read the PUNCH LINE

John 6:37 All that the Father GIVETH (future) me shall come to me;
        and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven,
        not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:44 No man can come to me,
         except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
         and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets,
         And they shall be all TAUGHT of God.
         Every man therefore that hath HEARD,
         and hath LEARNED of the Father, COMETH TO ME

THE CROSS IS HE DRAWING POWER:

FALSE as saving ALL:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW all men unto me.

Verse 33 comes after verse 32 and says nothing about saving all who are DRAWN.

John 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
John 12:34 The people answered him,
        We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever:
        and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?


The GOSPEL is the Power unto Salvation as the ONLY DRAWING POWER.

IT IS WACKO TO BELIEVE THAT GOD GIVES ONE THE POWER TO UNDERSTAND THE FATHER WITHOUT READING THE MESSAGE.  EVEN IF YOU WERE GIVEN FAITH YOU STILL HAVE TO COME TO CHRIST TO BECOME HIS STUDENT.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 17:46:29 by Kenneth Sublett »

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #38 on: Thu Jun 14, 2018 - 17:40:05 »

Offline RB

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #39 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 04:32:11 »
The words without distinctionare not in that verse.
It's the sense of the scripture based upon the overall teaching of God's word. Jesus came unto his own first, yet WE KNOW by understanding the sciptures overall the mystery of the preaching of Jesus Christ which mystery had been KEPT SECRET since the world began, but was beginning to be made known to ALL NATIONS that the GENTILES were ALSO part of Jesus' spiritual body which was to be the SPIRITUAL HOUSE/TABERNACLE built for God's eternal rest.
Quote from: Paul
Romans 16:25-27~"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
These things are not hidden from you now, just you do not want to accept this truth, because it goes against what you have already accepted as the truth, and besides, it would break your system down and reveal it for what it is worth.
 
Understanding this hidden mystery demands us to interpret
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 12:32~"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
All men meaning not only Jews but Gentiles as well~but NOT ALL of each which we know from many other scriptures.
Quote from: Paul a Jew and the apostles to us Gentiles
Romans 9:6-11~"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)"
The children of God's promises are the ONLY ones drawn by the Spirit of God, the rest are left to serving the god of their sinful lust, quite frankly, very contended in doing so and would hate and despise and even kill anyone for trying to separate them from this world and the lust therein~to believe otherwise is to believe a lie. It got Jesus Christ killed and his holy apostles and many righteous saints before them.
Quote from: 4WD Yesterday at 17:19:59
Once again you have to alter the meaning of the passage to make it fit your false theology
Once again? Please 4WD~I'm interpreting scriptures so that there is an perfect flow of HARMONY between them so that my readers can understand seemly verses that make them believe that Jesus' death was for every single person that ever lived, which we know is ridiculous and against plain scriptures and really common sense if we are thinking people especially in the light of OT scriptures and narrowing it down between Israel and the Egyptians. Any thinking person KNOWS that God treated Israel totally different than he did the Egyptians and the ONLY reason why that he CHOSE to love Israel and NOT the Egyptians! Now, are you going to argue against that truth as you have against other verses that teaches God's free election of grace?  Before you do, consider:
Quote from: Moses
Deuteronomy 7:6-8~"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."
God was NOT the God of the Egyptians but of Israel, and NOT all of them, ONLY the children of his promises among them, just as it is with the church of God in our day~they are the chosen people of God, yet NOT all, only the children of his promises among the them! No different than in the OT.  We know them by the godly fruits of the Spirit.
Quote from: 4WD Yesterday at 17:19:59
It is as I have said here several times before, it is not what God has said that is the problem, rather it is what someone thinks God meant when He said it. 
Agreed.
Quote from: 4WD Yesterday at 17:19:59
I understand the sense that you refer to, but that still does not require that one be born again in order to believe [have faith] in Christ.
Before one can see, hear, and have the energy to think, move and act, that person NEEDS LIFE! If you think this is not correct, then my friend find you the closest mortuary, and pay them a visit, and go to the first casket and ask the person therein a question and see if they answer you back~it will not happen, UNLESS God puts the spirit of life into that person, which we all know he could, if he wills to do so. Every man by nature is DEAD in sins and trespasses as far as having the spiritual power to receive spiritual truths! We know this truth from the scriptures and apart from God's word we would have NEVER known this truth.
Quote from: 4WD Yesterday at 17:19:59
And if you are interested to know what God meant in John 6:44, you might read the next verse.  There He says, "It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me-- ".  This is quite in line with Paul's declaration of where faith comes from: "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ" (Rom 10:17). Faith comes not from being born again, but rather from hearing the about Christ. 
Let us come back and consider John 6:44. I'm very sure you will be found: TEKEL; which being interpreted means:
Quote from: The Holy Ghost
Daniel 5:27~Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 04:44:18 by RB »

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #39 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 04:32:11 »



Online 4WD

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #40 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 07:32:40 »
Before one can see, hear, and have the energy to think, move and act, that person NEEDS LIFE! If you think this is not correct, then my friend find you the closest mortuary, and pay them a visit, and go to the first casket and ask the person therein a question and see if they answer you back~it will not happen, UNLESS God puts the spirit of life into that person, which we all know he could, if he wills to do so. Every man by nature is DEAD in sins and trespasses as far as having the spiritual power to receive spiritual truths! We know this truth from the scriptures and apart from God's word we would have NEVER known this truth.
The attempt to apply physical characteristics and qualities to the spirit is really laughable and irrelevant.  There is no such analogue or parallel to be found between the two.  It can only lead to very serious confusion and misunderstanding of the Scriptures.  But perhaps most dangerous is the fact that it generate deliberate misinterpretations of the Scriptures as you have done here so often. And the Reformed Theology doctrine of TULIP is just that.  It demands that everyone is born spiritually dead; and that is an affront to God who is the creator of the spirit given to everyone. God didn't "kill" your spirit; you did.  It is a gross misinterpretation to think otherwise.

Adam did not sin because he was spiritually dead; rather he died spiritually because he sinned.  It is the same with everyone.  When Paul said  "you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked" (Eph 2:1-2), , it was not Adam's trespasses and sins that he was talking about.  You didn't walk in Adam's trespasses and sins, you walked in your own trespasses and sins.

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #40 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 07:32:40 »

Offline RB

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #41 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 07:53:31 »
The attempt to apply physical characteristics and qualities to the spirit is really laughable and irrelevant.  There is no such analogue or parallel to be found between the two.  It can only lead to very serious confusion and misunderstanding of the Scriptures.  But perhaps most dangerous is the fact that it generate deliberate misinterpretations of the Scriptures as you have done here so often. And the Reformed Theology doctrine of TULIP is just that.  It demands that everyone is born spiritually dead; and that is an affront to God who is the creator of the spirit given to everyone. God didn't "kill" your spirit; you did.  It is a gross misinterpretation to think otherwise.
4WD, God chose the analogy not me. God did indeed created Adam perfectly and placed him in a perfect paradise from indwelling sin and gave him ONE simple commandment to obey~and he sinned and by that sin, sin entered into the world that God created for man.

I IN ADAM did kill my spirit and become alienated from the God who created man. The first Adam was the federal head of his posterity and acted on their behalf and his sin and the condemnation that came with Adam's disobedience was imputeth to every one born of the seed of Adam~all are conceived in Adam's likeness after his image that he took on by disobedience. Read this again Genesis 5:3~ for obviously, it has not sunk into your heart as of yet.
Quote from: 4WD Today at 07:32:40
Adam did not sin because he was spiritually dead; rather he died spiritually because he sinned.
Wow, can I call you a Reformed believer, because that's exactly what they believe? And so do I btw.
Quote from: 4WD Today at 07:32:40
When Paul said  "you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked" (Eph 2:1-2)
Let me come back and deal with John 6:44 and Ephesians 2:1
Quote from: 4WD Today at 07:32:40
You didn't walk in Adam's trespasses and sins, you walked in your own trespasses and sins.
"Both" are so....later  RB
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 07:58:40 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #42 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 08:02:37 »
IT IS WACKO TO BELIEVE THAT GOD GIVES ONE THE POWER TO UNDERSTAND THE FATHER WITHOUT READING THE MESSAGE. 
Maybe Kenneth that's your problem. I believe you are very intelligent, yet having a dialog with someone is not your cup of tea. It's like you speak English yet writings in Silbo Gomero. One of this earth's bizarre languages that no one can understand much less speak it. But carry on 'Chief" Silbo, for I'm sure you will.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 08:09:38 by RB »

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #43 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 08:04:49 »
4WD, God chose the analogy not me.
Nah,  Augustine did and you bought it hook, line and sinker.  And in doing so your entire soteriology is corrupted beyond biblical truth.  That soteriology is based upon one simple, but excruciatingly false, notion that God gave you a dead spirit.  He did not.  He would not.  To believe that He would and did is an indignity and an outrage against God Himself.

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #43 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 08:04:49 »

Offline RB

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #44 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 13:10:00 »
Nah,  Augustine did and you bought it hook, line and sinker.  And in doing so your entire soteriology is corrupted beyond biblical truth.  That soteriology is based upon one simple, but excruciatingly false, notion that God gave you a dead spirit.  He did not.  He would not.  To believe that He would and did is an indignity and an outrage against God Himself.
David taught it 1400 years before Augustine! Augustine has been dead 1700 years, YET his doctrine still lives on! Why? ONLY because he had the truth on this doctrine.
Quote from: David
Psalm 58:3~“The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies”
First, from the moment of birth every child is morally and spiritually cut off from the Lord~a lost sinner. Matthew Henry described it thus: “estranged from God and all good: alienated from the Divine life, and its principles, powers, and blessings.” Adam lost not only the image of God but His favor and fellowship too, being expelled from His presence. And each of his children was born outside Eden, born in a state of guilt and condemnation.

Second, in consequence of this, Adam’s children are delinquents, warped from the beginning. Their very being is polluted, for evil is bred in them. Their “nature” is inclined to wickedness only, and if God leaves them to themselves they will never turn from it~to believe otherwise, is to believe in a lie.

Third, they quickly supply evidence of their separation from God and of the corruption of their hearts~as every godly parent perceives to his sorrow. While in the cradle they evince their opposition to truth, sincerity, integrity.
Quote from: Solomon
Proverbs 22:15~“Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child”
Children arrive programmed. They default to foolishness naturally. It is their preferred and native choice. No matter how darling their mothers and grandparents think them to be, their hearts are void of wisdom and full of foolishness. They do not know or want to be noble or right.

David spoke of being conceived in iniquity (Psalm 51:5), for his nature by birth was corrupt and turned away from wisdom and toward folly. He further wrote that children tell lies right from birth (Psalm 58:3). Perceptive parents observe infants sin by furious screaming (far beyond crying) for no reason at all ~they are lying and/or angry to demand attention.

Children are selfish, willful, impatient, lazy, discontent, liars, conceited, rebellious, etc. They do not need to be taught these things, for they know them instinctively from birth. The scope and sequence and curriculum choices for any educational institution need not include folly, because children default to it without instruction or provocation.

Without training, children only know foolish thought processes and reactions to life. If these instincts, habits, or preferences are not corrected, and if the children are not taught wisdom, they will pursue these errors to a dysfunctional life and early destruction. By Solomon’s inspired wisdom, the best and only way to train them is by the use of the rod.

But in all ages there have been those who sought to blunt the sharp edge of Psalm 58:3 by narrowing its scope, denying that it has a race-wide application; these are determined at all costs to rid themselves of the unpalatable truth of the total depravity of all mankind. Pelagians and Socinians have insisted that that verse is speaking only of a particularly reprobate class, those who are flagrantly wayward from an early age. Rightly did John Owen point out:

"It is to no purpose to say that he speaks of wicked men only; that is, such as are habitually and profligately so For whatever any man may afterwards run into by a course of sin, all men are morally alike from the womb, and it is an aggravation of the wickedness of men that it begins so early and holds on in an uninterrupted course. Children are not able to speak from the womb, as soon as they be born. Yet here are they said to speak lies. It is therefore the perverse acting of depraved nature in infancy that is intended, for everything that is irregular, that answers not the law of our creation and rule of our obedience, is a lie."

“And were by nature the children of wrath, even as others” (Ephesians 2:3). That statement is, if possible, even more awful and solemn than Psalm 58:3. It signifies much more than that we are born into the world with a defiled constitution, for it speaks of not simply “children of corruption,” but “children of wrath"~ obnoxious to God, criminals in His sight. Depravity of our natures is no mere misfortune; if it were, it would evoke pity, not anger. In Matthew 23:15 Christ used the fearful term “the child of hell”~one whose sure portion is hell; while in John 17:12 He designated Judas “the son of perdition.” Thus “children of wrath” connotes those who are deserving of wrath, fit for it. They are born to wrath, and under it, as their heritage. They are not only defiled and corrupt creatures, but the objects of God’s judicial indignation. Why? Because the sin of Adam is imputed to them, and therefore they are regarded as guilty of having broken God’s law.

Equally forcible and explicit are the words “by nature the children of wrath,” in designed contrast with that which is artificially acquired. Many have insisted (contrary to the facts of common experience and observation) that children are corrupted by external contact with evil, that they acquire bad habits by imitation of others. We do not deny that environment has a measure of influence. Yet if any baby could be placed in a perfect setting and surrounded only by sinless beings, it would soon be evident that he was corrupt. We are depraved not by a process of development, but by genesis. It is not “on account of nature” but “by nature,” because of our nativity. It is innate, bred in us. As Thomas Goodwin solemnly pointed out, “They are children of wrath in the very womb, before they commit any actual sin.” The depraved nature itself is a penal evil, and that is because of our federal union with Adam, as sharing in his transgression. We are the children of wrath because our federal head fell under the wrath of God. Calvin stated, “There would be no truth in the assertion of Paul that all are by nature the children of wrath if they had not been already under the curse before their birth.”

But a greater than Calvin has informed us:
Quote from: The Holy Ghost
Romans 9:11-13~“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated”
This goes back still further, before birth. Esau was an object of God’s hatred before he was born. Obviously a righteous God could not abominate one who was pure and innocent. But how could Esau be guilty prior to doing any good or evil? Because he shared Adam’s criminality; and for precisely the same reason, all of us are by nature the children of wrat~obnoxious and subject to divine punishment~not only by virtue of our own personal transgressions, but because of our constitution. Deviation is coexistent with our very being. We are members of a cursed head, branches of a condemned tree, streams of a polluted fountain. In a word, the guilt of Adam’s sin lies on us. No other explanation is possible; since our guilt and liability to punishment are not, in the first place, due to our personal sins, they must be because of Adam’s sin being imputed to us.

For the same reason, infants die naturally, for sin is not merely the occasion of physical dissolution but the cause of it. Death is the wages of sin, the sentence of the broken law, the penal infliction of a righteous God. Had Adam never sinned, neither he nor any of his descendants would have become subject to death. Had not the guilt of Adam’s offense been charged to his posterity, none would die in infancy. Yet it does not necessarily follow that any who expire in early childhood are eternally lost. That they are born into this world spiritually dead, alienated from the life of God, is clear; but whether they die eternally, or are saved by sovereign grace, is probably one of those secret things which belong to the Lord. If they are saved it is because they are among the number elected by the Father, redeemed by the Son and regenerated by the Spirit~without which none can enter heaven. There is no such doctrine as the age of accountability....we all were accountable IN ADAM!
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 13:31:58 by RB »

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #45 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 15:31:56 »
Psalm 58:3~“The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies
They must have talked earlier way back then than they do now.  Or of course it may have just been that David was speaking in hyperbole. Which do you think?

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #46 on: Fri Jun 15, 2018 - 16:28:41 »
Quote
Romans 9:11-13~“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated

Jesus said that truth had been hidden in parables from the foundation.  That is because those OF the World for whom Jesus did pray HAVE NO NEED TO KNOW.  If you quote a verse without knowing what the meaning of is is then maybe God doesn't want you to understand.

Gen. 25:22 And the children struggled together within her;
         and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord.
Gen. 25:23 And the Lord said unto her, Two NATIONS are in thy womb,
         and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels;
         and the one people shall be STRONGER than the other people;
         and the ELDER shall serve the YOUNGER.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law,
            do ye not hear the law?

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons,
        the one by a BONDMID, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman
        was born after the flesh;
        but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an ALLEGORY:
        for these are the two covenants;
        the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia,
        and answereth to Jerusalem which now is,
        and is in bondage with her children.


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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #47 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 00:52:00 »
David taught it 1400 years before Augustine! Augustine has been dead 1700 years, YET his doctrine still lives on! Why? ONLY because he had the truth on this doctrine.  First, from the moment of birth every child is morally and spiritually cut off from the Lord~a lost sinner. Matthew Henry described it thus: “estranged from God and all good: alienated from the Divine life, and its principles, powers, and blessings.” Adam lost not only the image of God but His favor and fellowship too, being expelled from His presence. And each of his children was born outside Eden, born in a state of guilt and condemnation.

Second, in consequence of this, Adam’s children are delinquents, warped from the beginning. Their very being is polluted, for evil is bred in them. Their “nature” is inclined to wickedness only, and if God leaves them to themselves they will never turn from it~to believe otherwise, is to believe in a lie.

Third, they quickly supply evidence of their separation from God and of the corruption of their hearts~as every godly parent perceives to his sorrow. While in the cradle they evince their opposition to truth, sincerity, integrity. Children arrive programmed. They default to foolishness naturally. It is their preferred and native choice. No matter how darling their mothers and grandparents think them to be, their hearts are void of wisdom and full of foolishness. They do not know or want to be noble or right.

David spoke of being conceived in iniquity (Psalm 51:5), for his nature by birth was corrupt and turned away from wisdom and toward folly. He further wrote that children tell lies right from birth (Psalm 58:3). Perceptive parents observe infants sin by furious screaming (far beyond crying) for no reason at all ~they are lying and/or angry to demand attention.

Children are selfish, willful, impatient, lazy, discontent, liars, conceited, rebellious, etc. They do not need to be taught these things, for they know them instinctively from birth. The scope and sequence and curriculum choices for any educational institution need not include folly, because children default to it without instruction or provocation.

Without training, children only know foolish thought processes and reactions to life. If these instincts, habits, or preferences are not corrected, and if the children are not taught wisdom, they will pursue these errors to a dysfunctional life and early destruction. By Solomon’s inspired wisdom, the best and only way to train them is by the use of the rod.

But in all ages there have been those who sought to blunt the sharp edge of Psalm 58:3 by narrowing its scope, denying that it has a race-wide application; these are determined at all costs to rid themselves of the unpalatable truth of the total depravity of all mankind. Pelagians and Socinians have insisted that that verse is speaking only of a particularly reprobate class, those who are flagrantly wayward from an early age. Rightly did John Owen point out:

"It is to no purpose to say that he speaks of wicked men only; that is, such as are habitually and profligately so For whatever any man may afterwards run into by a course of sin, all men are morally alike from the womb, and it is an aggravation of the wickedness of men that it begins so early and holds on in an uninterrupted course. Children are not able to speak from the womb, as soon as they be born. Yet here are they said to speak lies. It is therefore the perverse acting of depraved nature in infancy that is intended, for everything that is irregular, that answers not the law of our creation and rule of our obedience, is a lie."

“And were by nature the children of wrath, even as others” (Ephesians 2:3). That statement is, if possible, even more awful and solemn than Psalm 58:3. It signifies much more than that we are born into the world with a defiled constitution, for it speaks of not simply “children of corruption,” but “children of wrath"~ obnoxious to God, criminals in His sight. Depravity of our natures is no mere misfortune; if it were, it would evoke pity, not anger. In Matthew 23:15 Christ used the fearful term “the child of hell”~one whose sure portion is hell; while in John 17:12 He designated Judas “the son of perdition.” Thus “children of wrath” connotes those who are deserving of wrath, fit for it. They are born to wrath, and under it, as their heritage. They are not only defiled and corrupt creatures, but the objects of God’s judicial indignation. Why? Because the sin of Adam is imputed to them, and therefore they are regarded as guilty of having broken God’s law.

Equally forcible and explicit are the words “by nature the children of wrath,” in designed contrast with that which is artificially acquired. Many have insisted (contrary to the facts of common experience and observation) that children are corrupted by external contact with evil, that they acquire bad habits by imitation of others. We do not deny that environment has a measure of influence. Yet if any baby could be placed in a perfect setting and surrounded only by sinless beings, it would soon be evident that he was corrupt. We are depraved not by a process of development, but by genesis. It is not “on account of nature” but “by nature,” because of our nativity. It is innate, bred in us. As Thomas Goodwin solemnly pointed out, “They are children of wrath in the very womb, before they commit any actual sin.” The depraved nature itself is a penal evil, and that is because of our federal union with Adam, as sharing in his transgression. We are the children of wrath because our federal head fell under the wrath of God. Calvin stated, “There would be no truth in the assertion of Paul that all are by nature the children of wrath if they had not been already under the curse before their birth.”

But a greater than Calvin has informed us:  This goes back still further, before birth. Esau was an object of God’s hatred before he was born. Obviously a righteous God could not abominate one who was pure and innocent. But how could Esau be guilty prior to doing any good or evil? Because he shared Adam’s criminality; and for precisely the same reason, all of us are by nature the children of wrat~obnoxious and subject to divine punishment~not only by virtue of our own personal transgressions, but because of our constitution. Deviation is coexistent with our very being. We are members of a cursed head, branches of a condemned tree, streams of a polluted fountain. In a word, the guilt of Adam’s sin lies on us. No other explanation is possible; since our guilt and liability to punishment are not, in the first place, due to our personal sins, they must be because of Adam’s sin being imputed to us.

For the same reason, infants die naturally, for sin is not merely the occasion of physical dissolution but the cause of it. Death is the wages of sin, the sentence of the broken law, the penal infliction of a righteous God. Had Adam never sinned, neither he nor any of his descendants would have become subject to death. Had not the guilt of Adam’s offense been charged to his posterity, none would die in infancy. Yet it does not necessarily follow that any who expire in early childhood are eternally lost. That they are born into this world spiritually dead, alienated from the life of God, is clear; but whether they die eternally, or are saved by sovereign grace, is probably one of those secret things which belong to the Lord. If they are saved it is because they are among the number elected by the Father, redeemed by the Son and regenerated by the Spirit~without which none can enter heaven. There is no such doctrine as the age of accountability....we all were accountable IN ADAM!

Generally, a good and sensible write on the matter of the sin of Adam.
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 00:57:43 by Michael2012 »

Offline RB

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #48 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 03:27:29 »
They must have talked earlier way back then than they do now.  Or of course it may have just been that David was speaking in hyperbole. Which do you think?
First, knowing my own heart and coming from a family of ten, and having four children and eighteen grandchildren, I'm convinced that David was a true prophet when he wrote:
Quote from: David, the man of God
they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies”
All of the faithful said amen David, amen my brother David, these are the "true words of God".
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 03:29:40 by RB »

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #49 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 04:26:48 »
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 6:44~“No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him”
Jesus taught us in his doctrine that it is by the secret and effectual operation of the Spirit that the Father brings each of His elect to a knowledge of Christ. No sinner will ever come to Christ until the Holy Spirit first comes to him and quicken that sinner to LIFE! And no sinner will savingly believe on Christ until the Spirit has first communicated faith to him (Philippians 1:29; Colossians 2:12); and even then, our faith is far from the faith Jesus possessed that justified us legally before the law of God~the two (our faith and Jesus' faith/obedience) should never be linked together as far as one inheriting eternal life.

The Spirit Himself must take of the things of Christ and show them unto the heart, or no man's heart is able of its own to understand and truly believe.  The opening of his eyes precedes the conversion of the sinner from Satan unto God (Acts 26:18). The light of the sun is seen breaking out at the dawn of day, before its heat is felt. It is those who “SEE” the Son with a supernaturally enlightened understanding that “BELIEVE” on Him with a true spiritual understanding. (John 6:40).

Again, "no man can come to me, unless the Father, who hath sent me, draw him"~ Jesus clearly taught that it is a peculiar gift of God to embrace the doctrine which is taught by him; which he does, that their unbelief may not disturb weak minds. For many are so foolish that, in the things of God, they depend on the opinions of men; in consequence of which, they entertain suspicions about the Gospel, as soon as they see that it is not received by the world. Unbelievers, on the other hand, flattering themselves in their obstinacy, have the boldness to condemn the Gospel because it does not please them. On the contrary, therefore, Christ declares that the doctrine of the Gospel, though it is preached to most without exception, cannot be embraced by all, but that a new understanding and a new perception are requisite; and, therefore, that faith does not depend on the will of men, but that it is God who gives it.

"Unless the Father draw him"~To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, John, in order to carry out the metaphor in the opposite clause, says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected. This drawing but is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. See Ephesians 1:18-2:1~It is a false and profane assertion, therefore, that none are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who quickened men's hearts to obey him.
Quote from: John the beloved
John 6:45~"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
Christ is confirming what he just said by quoting Isaiah~This drawing is NOT by external voice as 4WD thinks, and that would go against the scriptures~let us consider exactly what Christ is saying.......

Christ confirms by the testimony of Isaiah what he said, that no man can come to him, unless he be drawn by the Father~ He uses the word prophets in the plural number, because all their prophecies had been collected into one volume, so that all the prophets might justly be accounted one book~and they ALL taught the same truth. The passage which is here quoted is to be found in Isaiah 54:13, where, speaking of the restoration of the Church, he promises to her, sons taught by the instruction of God Hence it may easily be inferred, that the Church cannot be restored in any other way than by God undertaking the office of a Teacher, and bringing believers to himself. The way of teaching, of which the prophet speaks, does not consist merely in the external voice, but likewise in the secret operation of the Holy Spirit. In short, this teaching of God is the inward illumination of the heart.

And they shall be all taught by God. As to the word all, it must be limited to the elect, who alone are the true children of the Church and NOT all are taught without exception, for "most" of the world have never been taught in the sense in which Jesus is speaking.

Now it is not difficult to see in what manner Christ applies this prediction to the present subject. Isaiah shows that then only is the Church truly edified when she has her children taught by God.... Christ, therefore, justly concludes that men have not eyes to behold the light of life, until God has opened them. But at the same time, he fastens on the general phrase, all; because he argues from it, that all who are taught by God are effectually drawn, so as to come; and to this relates what he immediately adds,

"Whosoever therefore hath heard my Father"~ The sum of what is said is, that all who do not believe are reprobate and doomed to destruction; because all the sons of the Church and heirs of life are made by God to be his obedient disciples. Hence it follows, that there is not one of all the elect of God who shall not be a partaker of faith in Christ.  Again, as Christ formerly affirmed that men are not fitted for believing, until they have been drawn, so he now declares that the grace of Christ, by which they are drawn, is efficacious, so that they necessarily believe.

These two clauses utterly overturn the whole power of free will, of which the work mongers dream. For if it be only when the Father has drawn us that we begin to come to Christ, there is not in us any commencement of faith, or any preparation for it. On the other hand, if all come whom the Father hath taught, He gives to them not only the choice of believing, but faith itself.....which agrees with Philippinas 1:29.

When, therefore, we willingly yield to the guidance of the Spirit, this is a part, and, as it were, a sealing of grace; because God would not draw us, if He were only to stretch out his hand, and leave our will in a state of suspense. But in strict propriety of language, He is said to draw us, when He extends the power of his Spirit to the full effect of faith. They are said to hear God, who willingly assent to God speaking to them within, because the Holy Spirit reigns in their hearts.

"Cometh to me'~He shows the inseparable connection that exists between him and the Father. For the meaning is, that it is impossible that any who are God's disciples shall not love, exalt, and follow his Son, the Saviour of sinners who could not save themselves.
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 04:30:34 by RB »

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #50 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 05:41:36 »
Quote
Quote from: RB on Yesterday at 13:10:00
Psalm 58:3~“The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies”
They must have talked earlier way back then than they do now.  Or of course it may have just been that David was speaking in hyperbole. Which do you think?

We can be sure it is not that they must have talked earlier way back then.

David speaking in hyperbole, is far from being the case. And whether that is literal or figurative, to me, is not really the issue. And without taking issue on that, what the scriptures meant to say there is clear:

1. Refers to those estranged from the womb, that is, those that were born.
2. They are guilty.
3. When? From birth.

If one will just look closely at the subject scriptures, that is, Psalm 58:3, notice who are referred to there. There is no mistake, they are "the wicked".


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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #51 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 06:30:01 »
Quote
Quote from: Jesus Christ
John 6:44~“No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him”
Jesus taught us in his doctrine that it is by the secret and effectual operation of the Spirit that the Father brings each of His elect to a knowledge of Christ. No sinner will ever come to Christ until the Holy Spirit first comes to him and quicken that sinner to LIFE! And no sinner will savingly believe on Christ until the Spirit has first communicated faith to him (Philippians 1:29; Colossians 2:12); and even then, our faith is far from the faith Jesus possessed that justified us legally before the law of God~the two (our faith and Jesus' faith/obedience) should never be linked together as far as one inheriting eternal life.

The Spirit Himself must take of the things of Christ and show them unto the heart, or no man's heart is able of its own to understand and truly believe.  The opening of his eyes precedes the conversion of the sinner from Satan unto God (Acts 26:18). The light of the sun is seen breaking out at the dawn of day, before its heat is felt. It is those who “SEE” the Son with a supernaturally enlightened understanding that “BELIEVE” on Him with a true spiritual understanding. (John 6:40).

Again, "no man can come to me, unless the Father, who hath sent me, draw him"~ Jesus clearly taught that it is a peculiar gift of God to embrace the doctrine which is taught by him; which he does, that their unbelief may not disturb weak minds. For many are so foolish that, in the things of God, they depend on the opinions of men; in consequence of which, they entertain suspicions about the Gospel, as soon as they see that it is not received by the world. Unbelievers, on the other hand, flattering themselves in their obstinacy, have the boldness to condemn the Gospel because it does not please them. On the contrary, therefore, Christ declares that the doctrine of the Gospel, though it is preached to most without exception, cannot be embraced by all, but that a new understanding and a new perception are requisite; and, therefore, that faith does not depend on the will of men, but that it is God who gives it.

"Unless the Father draw him"~To come to Christ being here used metaphorically for believing, John, in order to carry out the metaphor in the opposite clause, says that those persons are drawn whose understandings God enlightens, and whose hearts he bends and forms to the obedience of Christ. The statement amounts to this, that we ought not to wonder if many refuse to embrace the Gospel; because no man will ever of himself be able to come to Christ, but God must first approach him by his Spirit; and hence it follows that all are not drawn, but that God bestows this grace on those whom he has elected. This drawing but is a powerful impulse of the Holy Spirit, which makes men willing who formerly were unwilling and reluctant. See Ephesians 1:18-2:1~It is a false and profane assertion, therefore, that none are drawn but those who are willing to be drawn, as if man made himself obedient to God by his own efforts; for the willingness with which men follow God is what they already have from himself, who quickened men's hearts to obey him.

Regarding John 6:44, we can understand that, without the exception of anyone, all man have not the power or is able to come to Christ. Only those whom the Father will draw will be able to. Now the matter here is what the word "draw" means.

Let me post here a transliteration of the Greek text for reference and consideration:

oudeis dynatai elthein pros me ean me ho Pater ho pempsas me helkyse auton, kago anasteso auton en te eschate hemera.

The Greek word translated "draw" is "helkyse", which means:

Strong's Concordance
helkó: to drag
Original Word: ἑλκύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: helkó
Phonetic Spelling: (hel-koo'-o)
Short Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade
Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1670: ἑλκύω

ἑλκύω, see ἕλκω.
STRONGS NT 1670: ἕλκωἕλκω (and in later writings ἑλκύω also (Veitch, under the word; Winer's Grammar, 86 (82))); imperfect εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω (ἑλκύσω Rec.elz John 12:32); 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ((infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, ἑλκύσαι R {s} G Tr); cf. Alexander Buttmann (1873) Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger, § 40, under the word; (Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word)); from Homer down; the Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;

1. properly: τό δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινα, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τήν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρός τόν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4)cumtriniscatenisvinctustraheretur, Livy 2, 27cumalictoribusjamtraheretur).

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)

So, we can see the thought in the word "draw" as used in this statement of Jesus. The power to come to Christ rest upon the drawing of the Father. However that may be done by the Father is really not the matter. What we must understand is that, no man is able to come to Christ by his own ability. So, when one thinks his coming to Christ is on account of his own ability, he is deceived and is in error. The deception is even worst when one thinks his being saved, as having come to Christ, is by his doing, work, and ability.

It is important that the Christian must realize this truth, so as not to dishonor the Father, that he was able to come to Christ and is saved, not on account of any work that he has done nor or his own ability, but that he was drawn by the Father.



Offline BTR

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #52 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 06:33:13 »
They must have talked earlier way back then than they do now.  Or of course it may have just been that David was speaking in hyperbole. Which do you think?


We can be sure it is not that they must have talked earlier way back then.

David speaking in hyperbole, is far from being the case. And whether that is literal or figurative, to me, is not really the issue. And without taking issue on that, what the scriptures meant to say there is clear:

1. Refers to those estranged from the womb, that is, those that were born.
2. They are guilty.
3. When? From birth.

If one will just look closely at the subject scriptures, that is, Psalm 58:3, notice who are referred to there. There is no mistake, they are "the wicked".

Yes, "they" are the wicked.

And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? -Gen.18:23

Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness. -Exo.23:1


For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart. -Psa.11:2

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. -Psa.11:5


There are two kinds in this world, some here seem to be putting them both in the same category.

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked. -Exo.23:7





« Last Edit: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 06:35:20 by BTR »

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #53 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 06:52:39 »
And without taking issue on that, what the scriptures meant to say there is clear:

1. Refers to those estranged from the womb, that is, those that were born.
2. They are guilty.
3. When? From birth.

Guilty of what, Michael?  Please be specific.  What are they guilty of? What sin have they committed?  The Psalmist said, "they go astray".  How exactly did they do that?

But I understand, Michael, that you want to read that verse as a literal statement of the condition of a child from birth.  Then I must assume that both you and RB read Psalm 58:4 as literal as well. "They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear..."  Babies are venomous.  So you must be very careful not to let them bite you, you could die from that.

What a joke.

Yes, Michael, I understand that you, just like RB, blame God for giving you a spirit dead from birth.  That is so much easier than taking responsibility for your own weaknesses.  The ogre that God is depicted to be by your  false doctrines of original sin and total depravity is such a terrible affront to Him.  The indignity of that accusation is quite stunning.

You might want to give some consideration to verse 11: "Surely there is a reward for the righteous; surely there is a God who judges on earth."    And in your consideration, tie that in with "None is righteous, no, not one" (Rom 3:10)
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 07:00:03 by 4WD »

Online Michael2012

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #54 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 06:58:13 »
John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

In the verse it is clear that Christ is saying that He will draw all people to Himself when He will be lifted up from the earth. But Jesus did not said this in connection to one's salvation. The next verse tells us why Jesus said that.

John 12:33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

 

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #55 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 07:03:04 »
In the verse it is clear that Christ is saying that He will draw all people to Himself when He will be lifted up from the earth. But Jesus did not said this in connection to one's salvation. The next verse tells us why Jesus said that.

John 12:33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

So then He will not draw all people to Himself when He is lifted up.  I get it.  You think He lied about that.   rofl   rofl   rofl

Online Michael2012

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #56 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 07:16:22 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 05:41:36
And without taking issue on that, what the scriptures meant to say there is clear:

1. Refers to those estranged from the womb, that is, those that were born.
2. They are guilty.
3. When? From birth.
Guilty of what, Michael?  Please be specific.  What are they guilty of? What sin have they committed?  The Psalmist said, "they go astray".  How exactly did they do that?

But I understand, Michael, that you want to read that verse as a literal statement of the condition of a child from birth.  Then I must assume that both you and RB read Psalm 58:4 as literal as well. "They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear..."  Babies are venomous.  So you must be very careful not to let them bite you, you could die from that.

What a joke.

Yes, Michael, I understand that you, just like RB, blame God for giving you a spirit dead from birth.  That is so much easier than taking responsibility for your own weaknesses.  The ogre that God is depicted to be by your  false doctrines of original sin and total depravity is such a terrible affront to Him.  The indignity of that accusation is quite stunning.


Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

As I said, and I repeat, whether that is literal or figurative, to me, is not really the issue.

You asked "Guilty of what, Michael? " If you read the verse, you will find out that the writer is speaking of the wicked. By that alone, they are said to be guilty of sin, wickedness that is. Now, reading further, the first sin they are understood to be guilty of is lying.

4WD, I am not at all discussing anything about the condition of the child from birth nor anything about a spirit dead from birth, nor of original sin, nor of total depravity.

Online Michael2012

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #57 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 07:19:28 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 06:58:13
In the verse it is clear that Christ is saying that He will draw all people to Himself when He will be lifted up from the earth. But Jesus did not said this in connection to one's salvation. The next verse tells us why Jesus said that.

John 12:33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
So then He will not draw all people to Himself when He is lifted up.  I get it.  You think He lied about that. 

Who said He would not? Read again.

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #58 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 07:46:41 »
4WD, I am not at all discussing anything about the condition of the child from birth nor anything about a spirit dead from birth, nor of original sin, nor of total depravity.
Yeah  --  You are.  You just don't know it.

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #59 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 07:50:01 »
Who said He would not? Read again.

But Jesus did not said this in connection to one's salvation.

Offline soterion

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #60 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 08:03:34 »
We grow up strongly influenced by our childhood experiences into the kind of people we are as adults with the tendencies we have. No wonder we read in Proverbs 22:6 to train up a child in the right ways of God. Satan knows this and he is not tiring of leading any and all away that will follow him. Thank God for the salvation He offers all in Jesus.

A baby no more speaks lies ‘from the womb’ than Job was helping and guiding the orphans and widows as a baby, literally ‘from the womb’ (Job 31:16-18). Job is saying that from his youth, when he understood the need and could do something about it, he was helping the orphans and widows. David is saying of those judges that from their youth, when they learned to deliberately deceive through lying, they go astray into wickedness resulting in grave injustices and harm to others. A person has to decide to do this. Babies cannot make such decisions; they are not speaking lies and they are not wicked.

This is hyperbole, and it very much matters. To take these passages in a strictly literal way would defy practical hermeneutics and would lead us to believe in physiological and psychological impossibilities. As with any other type of figurative language, it has to be understood as such and interpreted accordingly.

Offline soterion

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #61 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 08:26:10 »
In the verse it is clear that Christ is saying that He will draw all people to Himself when He will be lifted up from the earth. But Jesus did not said this in connection to one's salvation. The next verse tells us why Jesus said that.

John 12:33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

John 12:32-33.
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

He was definitely saying this in connexion to one's salvation. He went to the cross for that very purpose. If He just wanted to signify His manner of death, He could have just said He would be lifted up. The purpose of this drawing all men is their salvation, and the cross is how He did it.

This is reinforced in John 6:44-45. God draws people to Christ through their hearing and learning the gospel. Everyone who hears and believes the gospel message comes to Jesus for salvation.

John 3:14-15.
“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."

Online Michael2012

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #62 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 09:35:03 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 07:16:22
4WD, I am not at all discussing anything about the condition of the child from birth nor anything about a spirit dead from birth, nor of original sin, nor of total depravity.
Yeah  --  You are.  You just don't know it.

If it pleases you that you think so and say. Can't do much about that.

Online Michael2012

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #63 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 09:37:09 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 07:19:28
Who said He would not? Read again.
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 06:58:13
But Jesus did not said this in connection to one's salvation.

 ::headscratch::

Online Michael2012

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #64 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 09:59:22 »
We grow up strongly influenced by our childhood experiences into the kind of people we are as adults with the tendencies we have. No wonder we read in Proverbs 22:6 to train up a child in the right ways of God. Satan knows this and he is not tiring of leading any and all away that will follow him. Thank God for the salvation He offers all in Jesus.

A baby no more speaks lies ‘from the womb’ than Job was helping and guiding the orphans and widows as a baby, literally ‘from the womb’ (Job 31:16-18). Job is saying that from his youth, when he understood the need and could do something about it, he was helping the orphans and widows. David is saying of those judges that from their youth, when they learned to deliberately deceive through lying, they go astray into wickedness resulting in grave injustices and harm to others. A person has to decide to do this. Babies cannot make such decisions; they are not speaking lies and they are not wicked.

This is hyperbole, and it very much matters. To take these passages in a strictly literal way would defy practical hermeneutics and would lead us to believe in physiological and psychological impossibilities. As with any other type of figurative language, it has to be understood as such and interpreted accordingly.


Soterion, I have some questions for you.

Do you know of even a single baby that lived and have grown, and did not sin, except Jesus?

If none, what can you say about that?

Offline soterion

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #65 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 10:29:52 »
Soterion, I have some questions for you.

Do you know of even a single baby that lived and have grown, and did not sin, except Jesus?

If none, what can you say about that?

All have chosen to sin at some point in their lives.

It shouldn't be surprising. Adam and Eve lived in an idyllic environment, free from sin, and yet they chose to sin. Since the fall all were born in and grew up in a sin infested world. Making the choice to sin is practically an inevitability, not because we have sinful natures, but because of the sinfulness of the world and the constant exposure to sin.

Online Michael2012

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #66 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 10:43:28 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 06:58:13
In the verse it is clear that Christ is saying that He will draw all people to Himself when He will be lifted up from the earth. But Jesus did not said this in connection to one's salvation. The next verse tells us why Jesus said that.

John 12:33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

John 12:32-33.
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

He was definitely saying this in connexion to one's salvation. He went to the cross for that very purpose. If He just wanted to signify His manner of death, He could have just said He would be lifted up. The purpose of this drawing all men is their salvation, and the cross is how He did it.

This is reinforced in John 6:44-45. God draws people to Christ through their hearing and learning the gospel. Everyone who hears and believes the gospel message comes to Jesus for salvation.

John 3:14-15.
“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."


I'd go with scriptures. Jesus said “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” to signify by what death He would die. And that is, being publicly crucified and lifted up on a cross.

He is not saying this in connection to salvation, but in connection to the manner of death He would die, as explicitly stated in verse 33.

You say that what Jesus said here is reinforced in John 6:44-45. Let's take a good look at what He said there:

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

What He said in v.44 is different from what He said in John 12:32. In John 6:44, the Father is the one who draws, while in John 12:32, Christ is the one. Now, in John 6:44, Jesus said that only those whom the Father draws, they are those who can come to Him, whom He will raise up at the last day. However, in John 12:32, Jesus speaks only of drawing all people to Himself. He did not say anything about coming to Him nor anything about raising them up on the last day. Rather, in verse 33, the writer qualified what He said in v.32, that it was to signify by what death He would die. So, does John 12:32 reinforce John 6:44? Apparently not.

Offline soterion

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #67 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 11:51:49 »
John 12:32-33.
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

He was definitely saying this in connexion to one's salvation. He went to the cross for that very purpose. If He just wanted to signify His manner of death, He could have just said He would be lifted up. The purpose of this drawing all men is their salvation, and the cross is how He did it.

This is reinforced in John 6:44-45. God draws people to Christ through their hearing and learning the gospel. Everyone who hears and believes the gospel message comes to Jesus for salvation.

John 3:14-15.
“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."



I'd go with scriptures. Jesus said “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” to signify by what death He would die. And that is, being publicly crucified and lifted up on a cross.

He is not saying this in connection to salvation, but in connection to the manner of death He would die, as explicitly stated in verse 33.

You say that what Jesus said here is reinforced in John 6:44-45. Let's take a good look at what He said there:

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

What He said in v.44 is different from what He said in John 12:32. In John 6:44, the Father is the one who draws, while in John 12:32, Christ is the one. Now, in John 6:44, Jesus said that only those whom the Father draws, they are those who can come to Him, whom He will raise up at the last day. However, in John 12:32, Jesus speaks only of drawing all people to Himself. He did not say anything about coming to Him nor anything about raising them up on the last day. Rather, in verse 33, the writer qualified what He said in v.32, that it was to signify by what death He would die. So, does John 12:32 reinforce John 6:44? Apparently not.

Again, if Jesus wanted to communicate only by what means He would die, He could have just said He would be lifted up. However, that is not all He said. He said that a result of His being lifted up would be His drawing all men to Himself. The only result of the crucifixion of Jesus that would result in people from among all the nations and peoples of the earth being drawn to Jesus is the salvation provided.

You can conclude from verse 33 that the only thing to be communicated by verse 32 is the method of His death, but even you will have to apply some meaning to, "...will draw all men to Myself" and it will not be defined as the method by which He will die. Crucifixion is not partly defined as the victim drawing all men to himself. Jesus was saying something else besides just that He will be crucified.

I see this drawing by Jesus as salvific in purpose. I also see this drawing by the Father in John 6 as salvific in purpose. The following is a quote from another thread:

In John 5:31-40 Jesus tells the Jews that there are four witnesses that testify to who He is; John the Baptist, Jesus' works, the Father (Jesus' words), and the scriptures.

It is through the teaching by those witnesses that the Father drew people to accepting the truths about Jesus as the Christ and the gospel of the coming kingdom that He preached during His ministry (John 6:43-45). Peter came to know Jesus as the Christ, in Matthew 16, through hearing Jesus' words and seeing His works. Those words and works were by the Father (John 8:28; 14:10). In John 5:33-40, it was not that the Father was not Himself teaching the Jews so as to draw people to Jesus; it was that the Jews would not believe the Father's teaching about Him (verses 38-40).

It was not man that revealed to the apostles that Jesus is the Christ, but rather it was God through the aforementioned witnesses that the apostles came to this understanding. When the apostles in turn preached Jesus, they confirmed their message through miracles and inspired preaching and teaching which were given to them by the Spirit (John 15:26-27; Hebrews 2:3-4; 2 Peter 1:20-21).

How do we know today that Jesus is the Christ? Through the word of the apostles (John 17:20) which was given to them by the Spirit and was recorded for us by the Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16-17). When we agree with the Spirit inspired message contained in scripture, we are believing in the Christ by means of God (1 Corinthians 12:3). In other words, flesh and blood does not reveal Jesus as the Christ to us today; it is God who reveals this to us. And only by the sharing of that information through the agency of faithful preachers can people throughout the world hear this message to start with (Romans 10:13-15).


The work of Jesus on the cross and the work of the Father to teach the people about Jesus, through various means, are a unified work that draw people to Jesus for their salvation.

Offline Kenneth Sublett

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #68 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 15:24:58 »
Quote
In John 5:31-40 Jesus tells the Jews that there are four witnesses that testify to who He is; John the Baptist, Jesus' works, the Father (Jesus' words), and the scriptures.

John the Baptists doesn't speak to you.
Jesus doesn't speak to you
The Father is LORD-GOD and you don't hear Him because the Words of Jesus tells us that only the SON can know the Father.
The Father is not the Words of Jesus: Jesus speaks the Words God breathes into him.  Jesus said MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT and they aree life.

Faith comes by hearing the Words of God left for OUR MEMORY

2Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
         to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through
         the righteousness of God
         AND
         our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pet. 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you
         through the knowledge
         of God,
         AND
         of Jesus our Lord,
2Pet. 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us
         all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
         through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pet. 1:4 Whereby are given unto us
         exceeding great and precious promises:
         that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
         having escaped the corruption that is in the WORLD through lust.

The World or Kosmos is the ECUMENICAL as the kingdom of the Devil IN CONFLICT with the Kingdom of God.

2Pet. 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent
         to put you always in remembrance of these things,
         though ye know them, and be established in the PRESENT truth.
2Pet. 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle,
         to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pet. 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, e
         ven as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pet. 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able
         after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables,
         when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
         but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pet. 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory,
         when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory,
        This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pet. 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard,
        when we were with him in the holy mount.

THEREFORE,
2Pet. 1:19  We have also a more sure word of PROPHECY;
         whereunto ye do well that ye take heed,

         As unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
         until the day dawn,
         and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first,
         that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

PRIVATE INTERPRETATION MEANS FURTHER EXPOUNDING WHICH WOULD REPUDIATE THE SPIRIT WHICH GUIDED JESUS.  The Word or Logos as God's Regulative Principle FORBIDS anything beyond TEACHING THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT.

2Pet. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
          but holy men of God SPAKE as they were MOVED by the Holy Ghost.

The Spirit OF God is His "breath" by which He informed the Prophets.
Jesus made these prophecies more certain.
The Apostles saw this performed and proven by SIGNS AND WONDERS.
The wrote to leave us a MEMORY.
Private Interpretation or trying to Explain the Word is DESPISING THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

2Pet. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people,
         even as there shall be false teachers among you,
         who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
         even denying the Lord that BOUTHT them, (Claiming that Jesus is the only LORD GOD)
         and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pet. 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
        by reason of whom the WAY (Road or PATTERN)  of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pet. 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with
        feigned words make merchandise of you:
        whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not,
        and their damnation slumbereth not.


ITS ALL BEEN SAID AND SCRIPTURE IS LEFT TO MARK ANYONE WHO DOES NOT SPEAK THE WORD BECAUSE THE SPIRIT IN ISAIAH SAYS THIS PROVES THAT THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.

OF THOSE WHO FURTHER EXPOUND OR CORRUPT THE WORD MEANING SELLING LEARNING AT RETAIL:

2Pet. 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
         than, after they have known it,
         to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation
         it was needful for me to write unto you,
         and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for THE FAITH [The Gospel]
         which was ONCE delivered unto the saints.
Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares,
        who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
        ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness,
        and denying
        the only Lord God,
        AND
        our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance,
        though ye once knew this,
        how that the Lord,
        having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,
        afterward destroyed them that believed not.


REPEATED IN A CHURCH NEAR YOU



Online Michael2012

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Re: What does it mean
« Reply #69 on: Sat Jun 16, 2018 - 23:26:45 »
Quote
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 09:59:22
Soterion, I have some questions for you.

Do you know of even a single baby that lived and have grown, and did not sin, except Jesus?

If none, what can you say about that?
All have chosen to sin at some point in their lives.

It shouldn't be surprising. Adam and Eve lived in an idyllic environment, free from sin, and yet they chose to sin. Since the fall all were born in and grew up in a sin infested world. Making the choice to sin is practically an inevitability, not because we have sinful natures, but because of the sinfulness of the world and the constant exposure to sin.


Yes, all have chosen to sin at some point. And why is that? The reason/s you say why, seems to put the blame away from the man and towards a sin infested world. But even from the beginning, when there was only Adam and Eve, and their children, where exposure to sin then isn't as much as we have today, no children of Adam had grown to be sinless. You see, there is more to the reasons you said, that not one man is born and grow and live to be sinless.

Until mankind realizes that, they will certainly not know and understand who they are and what nature they truly have, that is, the same nature of Adam - corrupted with sin and reigned by death - and that they are children of wrath. Being children of wrath says it all, not only to the grown man but even to the newly born, for all are indeed children of the fallen Adam. 
   
Until mankind realizes all that, they will not know and understand that they needed the salvation of God. That apart from the salvation of God, there is no hope that they will ever escape from sin and death.