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Author Topic: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?  (Read 3872 times)

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Offline winsome

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #70 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 07:44:18 »
I think that the following from Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible is as good an analysis of
Matthew 16:18 as any.


18 And I also say, unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Some have made much of the fact that the word "Peter" means rock, and from this have affirmed that Christ built the church upon Peter. This text is inscribed in letters of gold four feet high inside the massive dome of the Basilica of St. Peters; and it is feared that many have been deceived by this false claim.

It is true, of course, that the word [@Petros] (Greek for Peter) means "stone" (John 1:42); but the Greek text itself dispels any possibility of Peter's having been the rock upon which Jesus built the church. In appealing to the Greek, this author does not defer to the opinions of learned men, nor, for that matter, profess any knowledge of Greek; but God's truth is not subject to the arcane and ambiguous dissertations of the learned. Even an ignorant man, in relative terms, can, with the aid of a Greek lexicon or a common device such as the Emphatic Diaglott, see for himself that Christ did not build the church upon Peter.

In Matthew 16:18, above, the rock upon which Christ proposed to build the church is not the same kind of "rock" that constitutes the name of Peter. There are several differences of the most marked and significant nature; and attention is called to the little diagram herewith which sets forth those differences, emphasizing the impossibility of their being under any conditions IDENTICAL.

Jesus said, "Thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church."

The words "Peter" and "rock," as used above, are translated from two different Greek words: Petros and petra

Petros has six letters; petra word has five letters.  Petros is masculine; petra is feminine gender.  Petros means STONE or PEBBLE; petra means ROCK, CLIFF or LEDGE.

Yes, the words are similar, but what of it? Similarity of words does not even imply similarity of meaning, much less identical meaning. An old rancher requested his son to take one of his favorite horses and have him SHOD. A little while later he heard gunfire back of the corral and learned to his dismay that his son had shot the horse! The son said, "I'm sorry, Dad, I thought you said have him SHOT, and I thought I could do it as well as anyone else!" Certainly, there is more resemblance between the two key words in that mix-up than there ever was between the two Greek words noted above. Yet it is on the preposterous premise that those words are IDENTICAL that the whole fallacy of the church on Peter is made to depend.

Nor do we allow that the conscience of Rome is easy about this. The well known truth that the Greek text does not allow, and indeed refutes, their contention gives rise to all kinds of speculations and appeals to the so-called Aramaic Original (see introduction); however, it must be allowed by all that the Greek text of the New Testament is all that has come down from antiquity. Therefore, all arguments from the Aramaic should be rejected until it can be produced and authenticated. Certainly, it is evil to make an argument, upon so vital a point as this, from a version that does not exist except in theory, which has never been seen, and which, in all probability, if it were to appear, would doubtless confirm rather than deny the difference in those two words. All appeals to the Aramaic are, by implication, a repudiation of this text; and why repudiate it if, as some say, it makes Peter the rock on which Jesus built the church? He that has eyes to see, let him see!

What, then, is the rock upon which Christ proposed to build the church? It is the supreme fact of faith just confessed by Peter, namely, that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God.

A moment later Christ mentioned Peter, giving him (and later the others) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, thus making him, not the foundation, but the door-opener of the kingdom. To have made him both the foundation and the porter of the same building would have been a gross abuse of metaphor.

The gates of Hades, mentioned by Christ, is variously understood, as follows: (1) Some believe they refer to death and the fact that death would not prevent our Lord's carrying out the noble design announced on that occasion. (2) Others think they refer to the various sins by which men go to their spiritual doom. Thus, Origen made the gates of Hades to be such things as fornication, blasphemy, and other sins. (3) Another thinks they refer to Satanic opposition to the church throughout history, and that they contain a prophecy that Christ will triumph, not Satan. The meaning and import of the passage are so profound that there is more than enough room for all of these views without violence to the word of God. There may even be other meanings which men cannot know until the judgment.

I have taken these quotes from a post on another forum by another Catholic:

 Petros and Petra

1. There is no distinction between "petros" and "petra."
"In Aramaic 'Peter' and Rock are the same word; in Greek (here), they are cognate terms that were used interchangeably by this period."
 
--Craig S. Keener,The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, (Downer's Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1993), 90.
 

 "Although it is true that petros and
petra can mean 'stone' and 'rock' respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry."
 
--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.
 

 "Many insist on the distinction between the two Greek words, thou art Petros and on this petra, holding that if the rock had meant Peter, either petros or petra would have been used both times, and that petros signifies a separate stone or fragment broke off, while petra is the massive rock. But this distinction is almost entirely confined to poetry, the common prose word instead of petros being lithos; nor is the distinction uniformly observed."

 
--John A. Broadus, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, (Valley Forge, PA: Judson Press, 1886), 355.
 

 "I grant that in Greek Peter (Petros) and stone (
petra) mean the same thing, save that the first word is Attic [from the ancient classical Greek dialect of the Attica region], the second from the common tongue."
 
--John Calvin, Calvin's New Testament Commentaries: The Harmony of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. 2, trans. T. H. L. Parker, ed. David W. Torrance and Thomas F. Torrance, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972), 188.
 

 "The obvious pun which has made its way into the Gk. text as well suggests a material identity between
petra and Petros, the more so as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the meanings of the two words."
 
--Gerhard Friedrich, ed., and Geoffrey W. Bromley, trans. and ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. VI, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1968), 98-99.

 
2.Two different Greek words are used because you can't use a feminine noun for a man's name.
 "The Greek makes the distinction between petros and
petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name."
 
--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.
 

 "When using both the masculine and feminine forms of the word, however, Matthew is not trying to distance Peter, Petros, from 'this rock,'
petra. Rather, the evangelist changes the genders simply because Simon, a male, is given a masculine form of the feminine noun for his new name."
 
--James B. Shelton, letter to the authors, 21 October 1994, 1, in Scott Butler, Norman Dehlgren, and Rev. Mr. David Hess, Jesus Peter and the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy, (Goleta, CA: Queenship, 1996), 23.
 

 "The name Peter (not now first given, but prophetically bestowed by our Lord on his first interview with Simon (John 1:42), or Cephas, signifying a rock, the termination being only altered from petra to petros to suit the masculine appellation, denotes the personal position of this Apostle in the building of the Church of Christ."

 
--Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 1, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1983), 119.
 

 "The most likely explanation for the change from petros ('Peter') to
petra is that petra was the normal word for 'rock.' Because the feminine ending of this noun made it unsuitable as a man's name, however, Simon was not called petra but petros."
 
--Herman N. Ridderbos, Bible Student's Commentary: Matthew, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1987), 303.
 

 "The feminine word for rock, petra, is necessarily changed to the masculine petros (stone) to give a man's name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form kepha would occur in both places)."

 
--R. T. France, The Gospel According to Matthew, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985), 254.
 

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #70 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 07:44:18 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #71 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 07:54:57 »
Well, then I think I will appeal to common sense and ask which is the more reasonable and rational basis for the church of Jesus Christ.  Is it the man Peter or is it the truth spoken by Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God?  And for me there can be no question whatsoever. It is the truth spoken by Peter.  Peter is dead, but the truth he spoke is very much alive even today.  And I will leave it at that.

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #71 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 07:54:57 »

Offline bemark

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #72 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 19:57:02 »


Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.”

20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

So its revelation from Heaven revealed to peter who was simon ( hearing ) . He got the truth and Jesus Christ gave him the tick. But then he got the rebuke as well because Peter was allowing the spirit of satan to influence him as well. Christ was saying that the gates of hell shall not prevail , that lying deceiving spirit of satan shall not win against the spirit truth that is from God. So as we receive revelation we can allow truth from heaven (loose) and reject the false from hell( bind). We allow what we see or hear  from the Fathers will , by saying yes Lord as we pray that it be released to earth. Who is the ear,who is the eye in the body. We have been given the SPIRITUAL keys of Heaven to open or lock. It releases the will of the Lord and binds or does not allow or permit the will of satan. We release angels and bind demons.

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #72 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 19:57:02 »

Offline RB

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #73 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 03:57:56 »
What, then, is the rock upon which Christ proposed to build the church? It is the supreme fact of faith just confessed by Peter, namely, that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God.
Truly, it is the divine revelation given to Peter by the Spirit of God that allowed him to see and understand that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God.  The difference is critical in having the truth, or being in darkness as RCC are concerning Matthew 16, thinking that the THIS rock is a MAN upon which the church is built upon. THIS rock is GOD"S grace given freely to his church in birthing them into the family of God. That's why Jesus said to Peter...
Quote from: Jesus
"Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
The church indeed has the KEYS of the kingdom of God, that unlocks hidden truths in holy scriptures that is the light of the kingdom for the holy people therein.

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #73 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 03:57:56 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #74 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 05:28:00 »
I am not certain what you are getting at here, RB.  But it sounds like you are saying that the Rock was not the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, but rather that the Rock is really just divine inspiration or our regeneration by God.  I don't think that is what the passage says at all.

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #74 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 05:28:00 »



Offline RB

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #75 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 06:29:14 »
I am not certain what you are getting at here, RB.  But it sounds like you are saying that the Rock was not the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, but rather that the Rock is really just divine inspiration or our regeneration by God.  I don't think that is what the passage says at all.
Sorry if I did not convey my thoughts properly. In this discourse Jesus is NOT the rock, even though it is very clear that Jesus Christ IS the cornerstone upon which the church receives her free justification, but that is not teaching that truth in this discourse.

Dear friend, we cannot take a truth that is taught elsewhere in the scriptures and force that same truth in other scriptures, that may seem to lend itself to that truth taught elsewhere....that's a step toward teaching heresy.

What is taught in Matthew 16 concerning THIS rock, follows on the heel of Jesus telling Peter that his understanding of Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the living God, was not revealed to him by flesh and blood, but by the Father in heaven~and upon THIS rock, that is: God, who gave Peter the gift of faith is HOW, or the means of, the church of God/the temple is built. To this interpretation, the whole of the word of God would support with many, many scriptures.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 08:38:44 by RB »

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #75 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 06:29:14 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #76 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 06:36:06 »
Are you saying that God is the Rock?  I don't think that is what the passage is saying.

Offline RB

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #77 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 07:08:19 »
Are you saying that God is the Rock?  I don't think that is what the passage is saying.
::doh:: Please tell me that you are kidding. If not, then you need more help than I can give you.

Offline RB

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #78 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 07:22:35 »
Are you saying that God is the Rock?  I don't think that is what the passage is saying.
Okay, one more time, I said:
Quote from: RB Today at 06:29:14
THIS rock, that is: God, who gave Peter the gift of faith is HOW, or the means of, the church of God/the temple is built.

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #78 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 07:22:35 »

Offline 4WD

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #79 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 07:46:43 »
Okay, one more time, I said:
Okay, one more time, that is not what the passage says.  It doesn't say anything about God giving Peter the "gift of faith".  It says that God gave the revelation to Peter; that revelation being that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.  It seems clear to me that either the Rock is Jesus or the Rock is the revelation.  But there is no indication that the Rock is God.

Moreover, the passage doesn't say anything about the means or how the church is built.  It simply states the rock or the foundation upon which it is built.  We need to look elsewhere for how the church is to be built, Matthew 28:19-20 for example.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 07:50:04 by 4WD »

Offline RB

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #80 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 08:27:51 »
Okay, one more time, that is not what the passage says.  It doesn't say anything about God giving Peter the "gift of faith".  It says that God gave the revelation to Peter; that revelation being that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.  It seems clear to me that either the Rock is Jesus or the Rock is the revelation.  But there is no indication that the Rock is God.

Moreover, the passage doesn't say anything about the means or how the church is built.  It simply states the rock or the foundation upon which it is built.  We need to look elsewhere for how the church is to be built, Matthew 28:19-20 for example.


4WD, do you not have a PhD degree? WHY is this so difficult? I know why......the Father has not revealed this truth to you.
Quote from: 4WD Today at 07:46:43
But there is no indication that the Rock is God.
I never said it was. I clearly said:
Quote
THIS Rock is the revelation
That God's elect come to see the gospel truths concerning Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 08:35:55 by RB »

Offline soterion

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #81 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 08:43:18 »
Yesterday I did some what some call brainstorming, though in my case it is more like snow flurries.

Over the years I had heard of the Rock as being the following:

1. Jesus. Because He is described in many other places as the foundation or the chief cornerstone of the foundation.

2. The confession of Peter. That makes sense because it can be said that the church is built upon the faithful and truthful confession of who Jesus is, as Lord and Christ. That is true today. Those who by faith acknowledge Jesus as Christ and Savior are being added.

3. The mutual confession made by both Peter and Jesus (...you are Christ...you are Cephas...). I can see why some go there because Jesus said that those who confess Him to men will He confess to His Father in heaven. I think this line of thinking is missing the point of what Jesus was saying both in Matthew 16 and in the mutual confession passages.

4. Peter. For reasons already understood. I can't buy it because the church must be built upon an infallible divine source that never fails, and this doctrine would ultimately dethrone Christ as the One and only head of the church. It can be built upon Peter's confession (as well as other's) but not upon Peter himself.

5. The revelation made to Peter. I never heard of this one until just now reading it. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Today that would make the Bible, or faithful biblical evangelism, the Rock. I don't see Jesus saying that here. To me, the Rock is not built upon something that is hit and miss. Some people do not accept the revelation of who Christ is and others do accept it. It makes sense to me that, between this and the confession made by Peter, that the confession of Jesus as Christ is the Rock rather than the revelation of it that has not yet been accepted.

6. The divinity of Jesus. Upon the fact of His Christhood some say the church is built. To me, that is little different than saying it is built upon Jesus Himself. His being the Christ is why He is the foundation of the church, the chief cornerstone.

4WD made a comment earlier in this thread that makes sense to me. He suggested that a person cannot be both builder and foundation (in the same discussion or context). He was saying that with regard to Peter, but to me that includes Jesus. If that is the case, and I can buy it, then since Jesus is the builder in this passage, His person (or divinity) should not be viewed as the Rock.

Also, I agree with RB that just because a symbol is used a certain way in some passages does not mean it always has to be used the same way in every other passage. Each usage should be understood in its own in each context in which it is found.

That leaves me with coming closer to accepting that the confession made by Peter is the Rock, this better than anything else listed above. Faithful and full acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior is how the church began...and continues.

Offline RB

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #82 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 08:59:14 »
That leaves me with coming closer to accepting that the confession made by Peter is the Rock, this better than anything else listed above.
To your credit and a commendable godly trait you are laboring to THINK and to ponder all points given~good for you, and may the Lord reward your sincere efforts. RB

Offline winsome

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #83 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 09:27:48 »
I have to credit Protestants with inventiveness to get round scriptures they don't like.  ::smile::

So far no-one has been inventive enough to explain why Jesus changed Simon's name to Kepha - the Aramaic for Rock - and why it's not relevant to this discussion..

I'll also let the Protestant Evangelical D. A. Carson make the point.
"Although it is true that petros and petra can mean 'stone' and 'rock' respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry. Moreover, the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and most probably kepha was used in both clauses ('you are kepha' and 'on this kepha'), since the word was used both for a name and for a 'rock.' The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name." (Carson, The Expositor's Bible Commentary [Zondervan, 1984], volume 8, page 368, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 17-18)

"The word Peter petros, meaning 'rock,' (Gk 4377) is masculine, and in Jesus' follow-up statement he uses the feminine word petra (Gk 4376). On the basis of this change, many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretations, it is doubtful whether many would have taken 'rock' to be anything or anyone other than Peter." (Carson, Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary [Zondervan, 1994], volume 2, page 78, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 18)

(Quoted from an article by Phil Porvaznik)

Offline 4WD

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #84 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 09:30:00 »
4WD, do you not have a PhD degree? WHY is this so difficult? I know why......the Father has not revealed this truth to you. I never said it was. I clearly said: That God's elect come to see the gospel truths concerning Jesus Christ.
Yes, I do have a PhD degree.  It is not difficult for me to understand what God said in Matthew 16.  God did reveal it to me; He revealed it to me through what He wrote there in  Matthew by the Holy Spirit.  The only real difficulty for me has been in trying to understand what others, such as you, believe and have written.

Offline 4WD

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #85 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 09:35:52 »
I have to credit Protestants with inventiveness to get round scriptures they don't like.  ::smile::

So far no-one has been inventive enough to explain why Jesus changed Simon's name to Kepha - the Aramaic for Rock - and why it's not relevant to this discussion..
Perhaps Jesus is saying to Peter, "Simon Barjona, you are a little pebble, a little stone, but what you have just answered is a rock and it is upon that rock I will build my church."



Offline notreligus

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #86 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 10:09:38 »
Yes, yes, we've been through all that.

And we understand that whenever the word Rock is mentioned in scripture it always means Jesus Christ

This Old Testament passage is a future promise of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.   You're looking for the Pope; I see the promised Christ.  The Pope can't save or reconcile or be the Great High Priest or Intercessor or Mediator.   

Offline winsome

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #87 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 11:49:01 »
Perhaps Jesus is saying to Peter, "Simon Barjona, you are a little pebble, a little stone, but what you have just answered is a rock and it is upon that rock I will build my church."

But Jesus didn't rename Simon as little pebble. He renamed him Kephas - the Aramaic for Rock and a big rock at that.
See reply #6 under But Peter the Rock?
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 11:51:36 by winsome »

Offline winsome

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #88 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 11:52:04 »
This Old Testament passage is a future promise of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.   You're looking for the Pope; I see the promised Christ.  The Pope can't save or reconcile or be the Great High Priest or Intercessor or Mediator.

You don't do sarcasm do you?

Offline RB

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #89 on: Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 04:06:03 »
I have to credit Protestants with inventiveness to get round scriptures they don't like.
Well, now, aren't you crafty. Saints (yes, saints) are not Protestants, but the only ones that believe and live by God's written revelation concerning doctrine and practical godliness that he has commanded to teach and live by. Your religion has done a wonderful job of deceiving multitudes into believing that any who is not of the Catholic faith, or EOC are all Protestants.  NT believers do not protest TRUTH, but are the very ones who love it and preach truth and war against the great whore of Revelation seventeen~which includes ALL false prophets who sits on the scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns, FULL of the names of blasphemy, who is for the most part supported by the kingdoms of the world (seven heads and ten horns) for she preaches what they can accept and embrace while serving their own sinful lust.

I believe that fits people like RCC/EOC and host of others daughters whom the world loves and accept~but God's misfits, the beast with the woman approval despises and kills~wonder who that may be down through history? You call them Protestants, God said these words:
Quote from: John
Revelation chapter fourteen~"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."
"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins." God's saints refuse to go to bed with whorish woman~and who's the biggest of them? I will ask Martin Luther when I see him, I'm pretty sure he can tell me.
Quote from:  winsome Yesterday at 09:27:48
I have to credit Protestants with inventiveness to get round scriptures they don't like.
Oh please...listen to the BIG snail calling the little worm slimey......
Quote from: winsome Yesterday at 09:27:48
So far no-one has been inventive enough to explain why Jesus changed Simon's name to Kepha - the Aramaic for Rock - and why it's not relevant to this discussion..
I will IF you answer my replies above. I do believe in a fair trade like President Trump stresses.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 04:24:55 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #90 on: Fri Mar 09, 2018 - 04:04:48 »
Winsome I'm still waiting for your reply... I'm getting old, do so while my mind is still working.

Offline winsome

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #91 on: Fri Mar 09, 2018 - 04:46:03 »
Winsome I'm still waiting for your reply... I'm getting old, do so while my mind is still working.

Which particular anti-Catholic ramble are you referring to?

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #92 on: Fri Mar 09, 2018 - 05:08:51 »
Which particular anti-Catholic ramble are you referring to?
Grown up PLEASE. You folks can say and do what you want, yet someone disagrees with you and your faith they are being anti-Catholic. Go back and address my four points, and then I will answer any question or point you may think supports your position. Again FAIR TRADE.

Offline winsome

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #93 on: Fri Mar 09, 2018 - 05:19:43 »
Grown up PLEASE. You folks can say and do what you want, yet someone disagrees with you and your faith they are being anti-Catholic. Go back and address my four points, and then I will answer any question or point you may think supports your position. Again FAIR TRADE.


Replies below:

Well, now, aren't you crafty. Saints (yes, saints) are not Protestants, but the only ones that believe and live by God's written revelation concerning doctrine and practical godliness that he has commanded to teach and live by. Your religion has done a wonderful job of deceiving multitudes into believing that any who is not of the Catholic faith, or EOC are all Protestants.  NT believers do not protest TRUTH, but are the very ones who love it and preach truth and war against the great whore of Revelation seventeen~which includes ALL false prophets who sits on the scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns, FULL of the names of blasphemy, who is for the most part supported by the kingdoms of the world (seven heads and ten horns) for she preaches what they can accept and embrace while serving their own sinful lust.


Members of Grace-Centered Message Forum agree to abide by the following rules:
1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual’s belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say “The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."


I believe that fits people like RCC/EOC and host of others daughters whom the world loves and accept~but God's misfits, the beast with the woman approval despises and kills~wonder who that may be down through history? You call them Protestants, God said these words:"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins." God's saints refuse to go to bed with whorish woman~and who's the biggest of them? I will ask Martin Luther when I see him, I'm pretty sure he can tell me.


Members of Grace-Centered Message Forum agree to abide by the following rules:
1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual’s belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say “The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."

Offline RB

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #94 on: Sun Mar 11, 2018 - 13:23:11 »
Replies below:

Members of Grace-Centered Message Forum agree to abide by the following rules:1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual’s belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say “The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."
How did I break any forum rules with these words:
Quote from: RB on Wed Mar 07, 2018 - 04:06:03
Well, now, aren't you crafty. Saints (yes, saints) are not Protestants, but the only ones that believe and live by God's written revelation concerning doctrine and practical godliness that he has commanded to teach and live by. Your religion has done a wonderful job of deceiving multitudes into believing that any who is not of the Catholic faith, or EOC are all Protestants.  NT believers do not protest TRUTH, but are the very ones who love it and preach truth and war against the great whore of Revelation seventeen~which includes ALL false prophets who sits on the scarlet beast with seven heads and ten horns, FULL of the names of blasphemy, who is for the most part supported by the kingdoms of the world (seven heads and ten horns) for she preaches what they can accept and embrace while serving their own sinful lust.
Pray tell me, WHO is John speaking of in Revelation 17? Martin Luther who your religious group/followers call the great defector~is it any and all not of the RCC and EOC. I hear it all of the times from you folks and it does NOT bother me in the least, for I trust the scriptures for my security and hope not my religious affiliation, as you folk do. Pray prove to me WHO is Revelation seventeen speaking of ...Benny Hinn and the rest of the prosperity preachers ONLY? Is it speaking of Amo and his SDA group? Or it is speaking of all of those damn Calvinist who preaches another gospel according to you and others? Pray help me out. Somewhere we must mention NAMES and warn all to beware of them JUST AS CHRIST DID.
Quote from: Jesus Christ
Matthew 16:1-12~"The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up? How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Calling out names is NOT judging. I have often said that knowledge is NOT prerequisite for having our sins forgiven, only for a fuller practical salvation. I believe God has is children mixed in different faiths (NOT all, but in many) including Catholicism, yet we STILL warn those within and our brethren without of their leaven. I'm convinced that Nicodemus was a child of God that may have never come out of the Pharisaical system of the Jews religion, yet a child of God nonetheless. We judge false systems not the hearts of all within, only the Godhead can do that, even though we may very well be correct on many of them.

You folks use that religious card too much. Again grow up and be a man and defend your beliefs that you think is the truth. Amazingly when Jesus warned his disciples concerning the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees, RIGHT ON THE HEEL of that warning we come to the teaching of "THIS ROCK" and I take his warnings were given in a timely manner not only for the present day believers but for us as well. Selah.


« Last Edit: Mon Mar 12, 2018 - 05:51:29 by RB »

Offline winsome

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #95 on: Sun Mar 11, 2018 - 16:44:55 »
How did I break any forum rules with these words:Pray tell me, WHO is John speaking of in Revelation 17? Martin Luther who your religious group/followers call the great defector~is it any and all not of the RCC and EOC. I hear it all of the times from you folks and it does NOT bother me in the least, for I trust the scriptures for my security and hope not my religious affiliation, as you folk do. Pray prove to me WHO is Revelation seventeen speaking of ...Benny Hinn and the rest of the prosperity preachers ONLY? Is it speaking of Amo and his SDA group? Or it is speaking of all of those damn Calvinist who preaches another gospel according to you and others? Pray help me out. Somewhere we must mention NAMES and warn all to beware of them JUST AS CHRIST DID. Calling out names is NOT judging. I have often said that knowledge is NOT prerequisite for having our sins forgiven, only for a fuller practical salvation. I believe God has is children mixed in different faiths (NOT all, but in many) including Catholicism, yet we STILL warn those within and our brethren without of their leaven. I'm convinced that Nicodemus was a child of God that may have never come out of the Pharisaical system of the Jews religion, yet a child of God nonetheless. We judge false systems not the hearts of all within, only the Godhead can do that, even though we may very well be correct on many of them.

You folks use that religious card too much. Again grow up and be a man and defend your beliefs that you think is the truth. Amazingly when Jesus warned his disciples concerning the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees, RIGHT ON THE HEEL of that warning we come to the teaching of "THIS ROCK" and I take his warning were given in a timely manner not only for the present day believers but for us as well. Selah.

Well, for a start You said this
"I believe that fits people like RCC/EOC and host of others daughters whom the world loves and accept~but God's misfits, the beast with the woman approval despises and kills~wonder who that may be down through history? "

No evidence they fit the Catholic Church. Just your bigotry. Well quite frankly that's not good enough. I don't call your bigotry evidence.

Offline RB

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #96 on: Mon Mar 12, 2018 - 05:47:24 »
No evidence they fit the Catholic Church. Just your bigotry. Well quite frankly that's not good enough. I don't call your bigotry evidence.
In the secular world that's call a drive-by shooting! That's okay, it will just give me more freedom to reveal your system ...called fair trade by my President.  ::smile::
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 12, 2018 - 07:56:05 by RB »

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #97 on: Wed Mar 28, 2018 - 01:41:10 »
It is obvious at face value.  Jesus says to Peter, "You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church."

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Re: What is "THIS ROCK" spoken of by Jesus?
« Reply #98 on: Wed Mar 28, 2018 - 02:43:42 »
It is obvious at face value.  Jesus says to Peter, "You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church."
Deep thinking on your part~ that's why there's so many have such sects as yours. So, just take scriptures at face value and THERE you have your meaning of the text? I could have a little fun with that, but there's no use in laboring.