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I certainly never implied it was the reaching out that saved the drowning man. We all pretty much agree if we will just stop and listen to each other.

I AM saying a man can be so stupid as to refuse God's amazing grace. The rejection takes nothing away from the absolute miracle and work of the saver (saviour).

Self has nothing to offer to the magnificance of salvation other than to accept it. Accepting a free gift makes it no less free. Self can and does deny the potential recipient of that free yet priceless gift. Which I don't think anyone here can honestly dispute.

Yes, if someone brags about grabbing the rope or his effort in accepting the gospel, he is a pitiful one to be ridiculed. But to say the gospel doesn't have to be received is equally repulsive.

Jaime point well taken but please understand and empathize if you will that EVERYTIME Grace and the Free Gift of Righteousness comes up

Many of the survivors in this forum interrupt those of us expressing the Glory of God that belongs to the Savior to state how they participated in their Salvation by grabbing the rope...

Shifting the glory from the Savior to the effort of grabbing the rope

It's not necessary to go so far as to brag to detract form God's glory  ...it is merely enough to interrupt the expression of Glory being given to Him to bring attention to our meager efforts

As to those who reject ...they do not even know or believe they are drowning!

Their perspective is different than ours

They see the same ocean as a wading pool, they're just splashing away, swimming around doing the back stroke and the doggy paddle, having a great time not realizing they are in over their head.

As in the days of Noah, eating drinking getting married having a great party, they're just having a good ol' time

Quote from: Jaime

If they will just quit harping that we believe receiving salvationis us claiming to save ourself, I'm happy. I don't think most of them believe what you just stated. But it seems like they are saying that from our perspective. The gift of salvation requires an acceptance or faith response. We might all disagree with what the faith response is..................... The faith response is not saving ourself, it is the receiving of the gift. If not God would just simply "infuse" us all with salvation. He presents the gift, we accept or reject. The received gift translates into salvation. The rejected gift translates into remaining lost.

In the example given, two events must take place for salvation to occur; 1) the rope must be thrown to you and 2) you must grab the rope.  If just one of these events does not take place you will not be saved.  If you could somehow throw the rope to yourself and then grab it and thereby save yourself by yourself then you would have something to brag about for that would be a feat to say the least.


You grabbing the rope is the same as Peter and Paul saying 'save yourself', Acts 2:40 and 1 Tim 4:16.  You are not saving yourself by yourself but are saving yourself in the sense of taking advantage of the offer of salvation (the rope) that God has provided you.

Yet they will not understand that salvation here takes TWO, God and you.  God throws you a rope, commands you to grab hold and you either listen and do as He said and be saved or not  listen, do nothing and drown.  How can anyone not see they do have a role in their own salvation.  The rope does not magically wrap itself around you while you do nothing.


The next issue is does God have enough rope to save everyone drowning or does He have just enough rope to save a luck few?   

Everyone does not believe they are drowning...so everyone will not reach out for the rope.

As for the reaching...again, it is the most base need of all life to stay alive. So the desire to live is expressed in reaching.
The reaching of something to hold on to in order to retain life is not so much a conscience decision borne out of logical rational thought but an instinctual reflexive action born out of a desire to live...in the face of eminent threat of death or danger.

Turn the light and on a cockroach....flees to safety

But eventually when they are allowed to become comfortable even they no longer associate or identify threat or the danger of death with the entrance of light. At that point they will cease to run when the light comes on and go about their roach business not realizing the exterminator will eventually arrive   

A bizarre way to make a point I'm sure but hey...why not keep the topic interesting?   

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on February 15, 2012, 12:32:36 PM

Grace isn't a lifeline or rope that is thrown.  It is not the means by which we are saved.

"Grace" is the answer to WHY we are saved, not HOW we are saved.

How are we saved?  through faith on Jesus
Why are we saved?  His grace

Jarrod

Grace I believe is both the How and the Why...it is in fact the All in All!

Jesus being the Full Expression of Grace and God's Grace Given to Us is both The How and Why we are Saved

The Bible disagrees, but I shall not here bother to argue with someone whose main motivation is to hear their own words and admire them.

Jarrod

Quote from: gospel on February 15, 2012, 01:44:12 PM

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on February 15, 2012, 12:32:36 PM

Grace isn't a lifeline or rope that is thrown.  It is not the means by which we are saved.

"Grace" is the answer to WHY we are saved, not HOW we are saved.

How are we saved?  through faith on Jesus
Why are we saved?  His grace

Jarrod

Grace I believe is both the How and the Why...it is in fact the All in All!

Jesus being the Full Expression of Grace and God's Grace Given to Us is both The How and Why we are Saved

The Bible disagrees, but I shall not here bother to argue with someone whose main motivation is to hear their own words and admire them.

Jarrod

And indeed you should not desire to argue in the first place as it should also be above a moderator's position to demonstrate complete intolerance of an opposing viewpoint.

Jesus who's name means God Saves, specifically Yeshua Saves is the Grace of God given us

Here's why

God so loved the World He GAVE US JESUS ...see John 3:16

The Law was given to Moses ( God gave Him the Law to give to the Jews )

BUT

Grace and Truth came BY or THROUGH  Jesus ( see John 1:17 )

I'm sure you see the difference

Simply put....Jesus was the means by which God showed His Grace toward mankind

We see that in Luke 2:14

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Good will IS favor, favor IS Grace!

On the event of Jesus Birth God filled the sky with angels to announce the ARRIVAL OF HIS GRACE TOWARD MANKIND


The name John also means Grace

John whom called himself the Beloved or the Disciple whom Jesus Loved also stated the following

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace


Going full circle GRACE APPEARED WHEN JESUS CAME

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Titus 2:11  

Jesus is our Grace

Our Grace, Our Favor with God is in fact JESUS!

NOW....the choice is before you,

You can sit back and admire your words or you can admire God's Word for what it says

or

You can show in God's Word why my understanding of God's Word is in error or askew if in fact you believe it is

Quote from: segell

Gomer -

On another thread and in response to Jimmy, I wrote a kind of mini testimony about how the Gospel message is powerful to save.  And how that message saved me.  This is the response to Jimmy's question whether I needed to believe in order to be saved:

I saw no answer to the following issue in your story:

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? "


Paul says you and I serve either one of two masters: we either serve (1) sin unto death or (2) obedience unto righteousness.

I serve (2).  Your theology has ruled out (2) and that leaves you with a very bad option.

Paul says obedience leads to righteousness, you deny this, so what other option do you have here?





segell said: I cried out to God and confessed my sin, confessed Jesus as Lord of my life and asked Him to help me turn from my life of sin to Him and the Life He abundantly gives.  And as a result of the work of God in my life, as a result of my heart being changed by His Word as ministered to me by His Spirit, I wanted to be baptized.  Since that morning of September 17, 1994, God has been faithful.  His love has freed me up to follow Him, to desire to obey Him and to join Him in His work.  


You did works here segell, you cried out to God, you confessed your sins, you confessed Christ and asked Him to help  turn your life.

Quote from: segell

None of those things I did "in order" to be saved.

Then why do them?

 

Quote from: segell

I was convicted by the power of His Word, my heart was changed by that power and all of the things I mention above resulted from His grace in ministering to me.  As I've grown, by His grace, into a greater knowledge of Jesus, I have come to realize that it is in Christ and Him alone where I find my rest.  The Lord Jesus did for me everything the God has required of me.  All I am doing is trusting in Christ and all that He has done.  NEVER in any way, do I trust what I do for my salvation.  Not my obedience to Him (because it is imperfect) nor my love for Him (for it is imperfect).  BUT, Jesus obedience and love is perfect!  He did for me what I could never ever do.  He cleansed me of all my sin and unrighteousness and raised me into a new life.

You say "NEVER in any way, do I trust what I do for my salvation."

I do not trust in my obedience to save me either.  I trust in God to save me but God has promised that He would save me if I obey Christ, Heb 5:9 and have vengeance upon me if I obey not the gospel of Christ, 2 Thess 1:8.  

My obedience is not perfect, no one's is, but not obeying is disobedience and disobedience is sin and sin is why people will be lost.  So doing no obedient works leaves me lost in sin.

THe bible says the Christians must be "holy and without blame" Eph 1:4, and be "spotless and blameless" 2 Pet 3:14.  How can one like me who's obedience is not perfect ever be spotless and blameless?  Doing nothing and disobeying God certainly will not get me to be blameless and spotless.  The only way an imperfect me can ever be blameless and spotless is by being "IN CHRIST" where Christ's perfect obedience, His perfect righteousness covers me.  But doing nothing, disobeying does not get me in Christ, it takes my obedience in submitting to Christ's will to be baptized to be in Christ.  Even though I do not have perfect obedience, as long as I continue to walk in the light, Christ's blood continues to cleanse me from all my sins, 1 Jn 1:7.  That continuing cleansing by Christ's blood is what keeps me blameless and spotless before God, but it will not happen if I quit walking in the light altogether. I occasionally stumble but I will not quit walking in the light.

Therefore my obedience, as imperfect as it is, is necessary to be saved, to be blameless and spotless before God in Christ.  Now what verse says not obeying makes one blameless and spotless?  Not obeying means being lost, 2 Thess 1:8.  Do you believe what God said in Heb 5:9 and 2 Thess 1:8?

Quote from: segell

Jimmy, if you would have asked me at any time before Spetember 17, 1994 if I would love going to church, singing hymns, reading the Bible, praying to God by myself or with fellow saints I would have called you absolutely nuts.  Now something changed me radically.  And I mean radically.  For 44 years I wasn't able to do that.  And yet on the morning of September 17, 1994, life was given to me.  Why?  Because Christ and Him crucified was being preached to me.  That pierced my heart.  Not a sermon of "what I gotta do in order to be saved".  It is the wrong and misplaced focus.  Christ and Him crucified is the power to save and nothing else!!

You said "Not a sermon of "what I gotta do in order to be saved"."

In Acts 2, Peter's listeners asked what they must do as did the jailer in Acts 16.   Neither were told to "do nothing for Christ did all the work for you, He finished all the work for you so you do nothing" for this a  man-made teaching totally foreign to what the bible says.  In both cases the people were commanded to do something.

Quote from: segell

Gomer, notice how in Ephesians 2:8-10 Paul details an order of the who, how and why of salvation.  We are saved by God's grace, through faith - not of any works, for the purpose of doing those things God has set before us.  We are saved and then we obey Him.  What is the purpose of our salvation?  To bring God glory and to join Him in the advancement of His Kingdom.  

Faith itself is a work else it be dead, so the "not of works" does not include obedient works as fatih, but refers to works of merit. So to be saved takes both God's grace and our faith.  

Rom 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith..."

Why did Paul receive faith?  For his doing nothing, for his disobedience to God?  For obedience to the faith, Acts 22:16. Us receiving grace is condtional upon us have a living, vialbe working faith, Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand..."  Us receiving grace is conditional upon us have a working, obedient faith as Paul in Rom 1:5.

Quote from: segell

The message of "what I must do in order to be saved" is not the Gospel.  Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the message and the power of salvation.  

Again, tell this to Peter's listeners, Acts 2:37, to the jailer, Acts 16:30, to Cornelius, Acts 10:6; to Saul, Acts 9:6

Quote from: segell

Please don't worry about my obedience.  I love the Lord and seek to serve Him and to love Him - not in order to be saved and to keep my salvation, but because I have been saved to the glory of God.  Brother, your obedience is good but not for the purpose you have written about.  It places the focus on you.

Again, do you serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

Quote from: segell

What Jesus Christ did on the cross completed everything that is required of yours and my salvation.  That is Who and what of our trust. Christ did not suffer and die for the purpose of giving you the chance to get it right.  He got it right for us.  He loves you and me so much that He took our fall.  And that fall is righteous and holy because He lived a righteous and holy life for us as well.

God's grace is not just an opportunity.  God's grace is everything.  Do you trust His grace for your completion in Christ?  I do by His grace and I hope you do too.

What Jesus did on the cross He did for every man, Heb 2:9, so will every man be saved?  



Do you believe what God said in this verse?

Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Gomer -

Thanks for the comments.  I will try to respond as best I can. I'll start with the last question:

Do you believe what God said in this verse?
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Yes, of course I do.  But I read it differently than you, I suppose.  I believe the writer of Hebrews is, in effect, "He became the author of eternal salvation unto all who are His". Why?  Because we see in the Bible that the ones who obey Christ are His.  In fact that is the purpose of our salvation - to obey Him....not to obey in order to be saved.  This verse does not support a conditional salvation based on our obedience.  "All them that obey Him" are Christians, disciples or followers of Christ.
You said:

Paul says you and I serve either one of two masters: we either serve (1) sin unto death or (2) obedience unto righteousness.

I serve (2).  Your theology has ruled out (2) and that leaves you with a very bad option.

Paul says obedience leads to righteousness, you deny this, so what other option do you have here?

Christians have been saved to obey Christ.  We know that what we do is not righteous.  What makes what we do righteous, Gomer?  What is Paul talking about?  Isn't it about one's desire to serve and follow Christ?  Isn't that what Christians desire?  Yours or my obedience will never be perfect.

Romans 1:17For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.

Quote from: Gomer on February 16, 2012, 01:12:13 PM

Quote from: gospel

Everyone does not believe they are drowning...so everyone will not reach out for the rope.

Then they will be lost for reaching for the rope is just as essential to being saved as the rope being thrown out.

Quote from: gospel

As for the reaching...again, it is the most base need of all life to stay alive. So the desire to live is expressed in reaching.
The reaching of something to hold on to in order to retain life is not so much a conscience decision borne out of logical rational thought but an instinctual reflexive action born out of a desire to live...in the face of eminent threat of death or danger.

Turn the light and on a cockroach....flees to safety

But eventually when they are allowed to become comfortable even they no longer associate or identify threat or the danger of death with the entrance of light. At that point they will cease to run when the light comes on and go about their roach business not realizing the exterminator will eventually arrive   

A bizarre way to make a point I'm sure but hey...why not keep the topic interesting?   

Reaching for the rope is not a base instinct, but is commanded by God.  Just as Paul commanded the jailer to believe, believing then is reaching and grabbing for the rope.  Faith is how God's grace is accessed, Rom 5:2, and believing (grabbing the rope) is accessing/receiving the salvation God made available.

Gomer if we are in the middle of a desert where it never rains and I tell you a flood is coming and you do not believe me....you are going to think I am crazy building a boat!

This is why Jesus said. " Just as in the days of Noah....."

People will be oblivious to the NEED of Salvation, go on living life as they always do, eating drinking getting married and having babies....look around you!

Everything is fine, everything is ok, they do not see any danger, they do not sense any peril a flood is not coming.....

From their perspective....
There is no reason to be saved and nothing to be saved from except having fun and enjoying the pleasures of this world

They don't see the rope as a rope but as a little insignificant thread if at all but certainly not as a lifeline!

This is what you're ignoring!

Our job is to tell everyone but make no mistake about it....everyone who hears you will not HEAR ( understand ) what you are talking about

They are called just the same as all of us

But only a few are chosen

Those are the ones appointed to Eternal Life

New International Version (©1984)
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

New Living Translation (©2007)
When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


  Only HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE!

And who are His sheep?

The House of Israel.

It includes me, and all who have been grafted in. Scripture indicates that being grafted in transforms us into his sheep.

Anyone who has to ask "who is Israel" has really missed the message the bible unfolds.