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Author Topic: What is Grace  (Read 7494 times)

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Offline yogi bear

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #140 on: Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 15:16:54 »
Grace isn't a lifeline or rope that is thrown.  It is not the means by which we are saved.

"Grace" is the answer to WHY we are saved, not HOW we are saved.

How are we saved?  through faith on Jesus
Why are we saved?  His grace

Jarrod
Grace I believe is both the How and the Why...it is in fact the All in All!

Jesus being the Full Expression of Grace and God's Grace Given to Us is both The How and Why we are Saved
The Bible disagrees, but I shall not here bother to argue with someone whose main motivation is to hear their own words and admire them.

Jarrod
AMEN BROTHER AMEN well stated reply

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #140 on: Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 15:16:54 »

Offline gospel

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #141 on: Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 16:08:23 »
Grace isn't a lifeline or rope that is thrown.  It is not the means by which we are saved.

"Grace" is the answer to WHY we are saved, not HOW we are saved.

How are we saved?  through faith on Jesus
Why are we saved?  His grace

Jarrod
Grace I believe is both the How and the Why...it is in fact the All in All!

Jesus being the Full Expression of Grace and God's Grace Given to Us is both The How and Why we are Saved
The Bible disagrees, but I shall not here bother to argue with someone whose main motivation is to hear their own words and admire them.

Jarrod

And indeed you should not desire to argue in the first place as it should also be above a moderator's position to demonstrate complete intolerance of an opposing viewpoint.

Jesus who's name means God Saves, specifically Yeshua Saves is the Grace of God given us

Here's why

God so loved the World He GAVE US JESUS ...see John 3:16

The Law was given to Moses ( God gave Him the Law to give to the Jews )

BUT

Grace and Truth came BY or THROUGH  Jesus ( see John 1:17 )

I'm sure you see the difference

Simply put....Jesus was the means by which God showed His Grace toward mankind

We see that in Luke 2:14

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Good will IS favor, favor IS Grace!

On the event of Jesus Birth God filled the sky with angels to announce the ARRIVAL OF HIS GRACE TOWARD MANKIND


The name John also means Grace

John whom called himself the Beloved or the Disciple whom Jesus Loved also stated the following

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace


Going full circle GRACE APPEARED WHEN JESUS CAME

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
Titus 2:11  

Jesus is our Grace

Our Grace, Our Favor with God is in fact JESUS!

NOW....the choice is before you,

You can sit back and admire your words or you can admire God's Word for what it says

or

You can show in God's Word why my understanding of God's Word is in error or askew if in fact you believe it is ::reading::

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #141 on: Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 16:08:23 »

Offline Gomer

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #142 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 14:12:13 »
Quote from: gospel

Everyone does not believe they are drowning...so everyone will not reach out for the rope.

Then they will be lost for reaching for the rope is just as essential to being saved as the rope being thrown out.


Quote from: gospel
As for the reaching...again, it is the most base need of all life to stay alive. So the desire to live is expressed in reaching.
The reaching of something to hold on to in order to retain life is not so much a conscience decision borne out of logical rational thought but an instinctual reflexive action born out of a desire to live...in the face of eminent threat of death or danger.

Turn the light and on a cockroach....flees to safety

But eventually when they are allowed to become comfortable even they no longer associate or identify threat or the danger of death with the entrance of light. At that point they will cease to run when the light comes on and go about their roach business not realizing the exterminator will eventually arrive   

A bizarre way to make a point I'm sure but hey...why not keep the topic interesting?  ::shrug::  ::lookaround::

Reaching for the rope is not a base instinct, but is commanded by God.  Just as Paul commanded the jailer to believe, believing then is reaching and grabbing for the rope.  Faith is how God's grace is accessed, Rom 5:2, and believing (grabbing the rope) is accessing/receiving the salvation God made available.

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #142 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 14:12:13 »

Offline segell

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #143 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 19:37:30 »
Quote from: segell
Gomer -

On another thread and in response to Jimmy, I wrote a kind of mini testimony about how the Gospel message is powerful to save.  And how that message saved me.  This is the response to Jimmy's question whether I needed to believe in order to be saved:

I saw no answer to the following issue in your story:

Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? "


Paul says you and I serve either one of two masters: we either serve (1) sin unto death or (2) obedience unto righteousness.

I serve (2).  Your theology has ruled out (2) and that leaves you with a very bad option.

Paul says obedience leads to righteousness, you deny this, so what other option do you have here?





segell said: I cried out to God and confessed my sin, confessed Jesus as Lord of my life and asked Him to help me turn from my life of sin to Him and the Life He abundantly gives.  And as a result of the work of God in my life, as a result of my heart being changed by His Word as ministered to me by His Spirit, I wanted to be baptized.  Since that morning of September 17, 1994, God has been faithful.  His love has freed me up to follow Him, to desire to obey Him and to join Him in His work.  


You did works here segell, you cried out to God, you confessed your sins, you confessed Christ and asked Him to help  turn your life.


Quote from: segell
None of those things I did "in order" to be saved.

Then why do them?

 
Quote from: segell
I was convicted by the power of His Word, my heart was changed by that power and all of the things I mention above resulted from His grace in ministering to me.  As I've grown, by His grace, into a greater knowledge of Jesus, I have come to realize that it is in Christ and Him alone where I find my rest.  The Lord Jesus did for me everything the God has required of me.  All I am doing is trusting in Christ and all that He has done.  NEVER in any way, do I trust what I do for my salvation.  Not my obedience to Him (because it is imperfect) nor my love for Him (for it is imperfect).  BUT, Jesus obedience and love is perfect!  He did for me what I could never ever do.  He cleansed me of all my sin and unrighteousness and raised me into a new life.

You say "NEVER in any way, do I trust what I do for my salvation."

I do not trust in my obedience to save me either.  I trust in God to save me but God has promised that He would save me if I obey Christ, Heb 5:9 and have vengeance upon me if I obey not the gospel of Christ, 2 Thess 1:8.  

My obedience is not perfect, no one's is, but not obeying is disobedience and disobedience is sin and sin is why people will be lost.  So doing no obedient works leaves me lost in sin.

THe bible says the Christians must be "holy and without blame" Eph 1:4, and be "spotless and blameless" 2 Pet 3:14.  How can one like me who's obedience is not perfect ever be spotless and blameless?  Doing nothing and disobeying God certainly will not get me to be blameless and spotless.  The only way an imperfect me can ever be blameless and spotless is by being "IN CHRIST" where Christ's perfect obedience, His perfect righteousness covers me.  But doing nothing, disobeying does not get me in Christ, it takes my obedience in submitting to Christ's will to be baptized to be in Christ.  Even though I do not have perfect obedience, as long as I continue to walk in the light, Christ's blood continues to cleanse me from all my sins, 1 Jn 1:7.  That continuing cleansing by Christ's blood is what keeps me blameless and spotless before God, but it will not happen if I quit walking in the light altogether. I occasionally stumble but I will not quit walking in the light.

Therefore my obedience, as imperfect as it is, is necessary to be saved, to be blameless and spotless before God in Christ.  Now what verse says not obeying makes one blameless and spotless?  Not obeying means being lost, 2 Thess 1:8.  Do you believe what God said in Heb 5:9 and 2 Thess 1:8?


Quote from: segell
Jimmy, if you would have asked me at any time before Spetember 17, 1994 if I would love going to church, singing hymns, reading the Bible, praying to God by myself or with fellow saints I would have called you absolutely nuts.  Now something changed me radically.  And I mean radically.  For 44 years I wasn't able to do that.  And yet on the morning of September 17, 1994, life was given to me.  Why?  Because Christ and Him crucified was being preached to me.  That pierced my heart.  Not a sermon of "what I gotta do in order to be saved".  It is the wrong and misplaced focus.  Christ and Him crucified is the power to save and nothing else!!

You said "Not a sermon of "what I gotta do in order to be saved"."

In Acts 2, Peter's listeners asked what they must do as did the jailer in Acts 16.   Neither were told to "do nothing for Christ did all the work for you, He finished all the work for you so you do nothing" for this a  man-made teaching totally foreign to what the bible says.  In both cases the people were commanded to do something.

Quote from: segell
Gomer, notice how in Ephesians 2:8-10 Paul details an order of the who, how and why of salvation.  We are saved by God's grace, through faith - not of any works, for the purpose of doing those things God has set before us.  We are saved and then we obey Him.  What is the purpose of our salvation?  To bring God glory and to join Him in the advancement of His Kingdom.  

Faith itself is a work else it be dead, so the "not of works" does not include obedient works as fatih, but refers to works of merit. So to be saved takes both God's grace and our faith.  

Rom 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith..."

Why did Paul receive faith?  For his doing nothing, for his disobedience to God?  For obedience to the faith, Acts 22:16. Us receiving grace is condtional upon us have a living, vialbe working faith, Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand..."  Us receiving grace is conditional upon us have a working, obedient faith as Paul in Rom 1:5.


Quote from: segell
The message of "what I must do in order to be saved" is not the Gospel.  Jesus Christ and Him crucified is the message and the power of salvation.  

Again, tell this to Peter's listeners, Acts 2:37, to the jailer, Acts 16:30, to Cornelius, Acts 10:6; to Saul, Acts 9:6


Quote from: segell
Please don't worry about my obedience.  I love the Lord and seek to serve Him and to love Him - not in order to be saved and to keep my salvation, but because I have been saved to the glory of God.  Brother, your obedience is good but not for the purpose you have written about.  It places the focus on you.

Again, do you serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

Quote from: segell
What Jesus Christ did on the cross completed everything that is required of yours and my salvation.  That is Who and what of our trust. Christ did not suffer and die for the purpose of giving you the chance to get it right.  He got it right for us.  He loves you and me so much that He took our fall.  And that fall is righteous and holy because He lived a righteous and holy life for us as well.

God's grace is not just an opportunity.  God's grace is everything.  Do you trust His grace for your completion in Christ?  I do by His grace and I hope you do too.

What Jesus did on the cross He did for every man, Heb 2:9, so will every man be saved?  



Do you believe what God said in this verse?

Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Gomer -

Thanks for the comments.  I will try to respond as best I can. I'll start with the last question:

Quote
Do you believe what God said in this verse?
Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Yes, of course I do.  But I read it differently than you, I suppose.  I believe the writer of Hebrews is, in effect, "He became the author of eternal salvation unto all who are His". Why?  Because we see in the Bible that the ones who obey Christ are His.  In fact that is the purpose of our salvation - to obey Him....not to obey in order to be saved.  This verse does not support a conditional salvation based on our obedience.  "All them that obey Him" are Christians, disciples or followers of Christ.
You said:

Quote
Paul says you and I serve either one of two masters: we either serve (1) sin unto death or (2) obedience unto righteousness.

I serve (2).  Your theology has ruled out (2) and that leaves you with a very bad option.

Paul says obedience leads to righteousness, you deny this, so what other option do you have here?


Christians have been saved to obey Christ.  We know that what we do is not righteous.  What makes what we do righteous, Gomer?  What is Paul talking about?  Isn't it about one's desire to serve and follow Christ?  Isn't that what Christians desire?  Yours or my obedience will never be perfect.

Romans 1:17For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #143 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 19:37:30 »
Pinterest: GraceCentered.com

Offline gospel

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #144 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 19:53:32 »
Quote from: gospel

Everyone does not believe they are drowning...so everyone will not reach out for the rope.

Then they will be lost for reaching for the rope is just as essential to being saved as the rope being thrown out.


Quote from: gospel
As for the reaching...again, it is the most base need of all life to stay alive. So the desire to live is expressed in reaching.
The reaching of something to hold on to in order to retain life is not so much a conscience decision borne out of logical rational thought but an instinctual reflexive action born out of a desire to live...in the face of eminent threat of death or danger.

Turn the light and on a cockroach....flees to safety

But eventually when they are allowed to become comfortable even they no longer associate or identify threat or the danger of death with the entrance of light. At that point they will cease to run when the light comes on and go about their roach business not realizing the exterminator will eventually arrive   

A bizarre way to make a point I'm sure but hey...why not keep the topic interesting?  ::shrug::  ::lookaround::

Reaching for the rope is not a base instinct, but is commanded by God.  Just as Paul commanded the jailer to believe, believing then is reaching and grabbing for the rope.  Faith is how God's grace is accessed, Rom 5:2, and believing (grabbing the rope) is accessing/receiving the salvation God made available.

Gomer if we are in the middle of a desert where it never rains and I tell you a flood is coming and you do not believe me....you are going to think I am crazy building a boat!

This is why Jesus said. " Just as in the days of Noah....."

People will be oblivious to the NEED of Salvation, go on living life as they always do, eating drinking getting married and having babies....look around you!

Everything is fine, everything is ok, they do not see any danger, they do not sense any peril a flood is not coming.....

From their perspective....
There is no reason to be saved and nothing to be saved from except having fun and enjoying the pleasures of this world

They don't see the rope as a rope but as a little insignificant thread if at all but certainly not as a lifeline!

This is what you're ignoring!

Our job is to tell everyone but make no mistake about it....everyone who hears you will not HEAR ( understand ) what you are talking about

They are called just the same as all of us

But only a few are chosen

Those are the ones appointed to Eternal Life

New International Version (©1984)
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

New Living Translation (©2007)
When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


 ::announcment:: Only HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE!

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #144 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 19:53:32 »



Offline Consumingfire

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #145 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 21:20:29 »
Quote from: gospel

Everyone does not believe they are drowning...so everyone will not reach out for the rope.

Then they will be lost for reaching for the rope is just as essential to being saved as the rope being thrown out.


Quote from: gospel
As for the reaching...again, it is the most base need of all life to stay alive. So the desire to live is expressed in reaching.
The reaching of something to hold on to in order to retain life is not so much a conscience decision borne out of logical rational thought but an instinctual reflexive action born out of a desire to live...in the face of eminent threat of death or danger.

Turn the light and on a cockroach....flees to safety

But eventually when they are allowed to become comfortable even they no longer associate or identify threat or the danger of death with the entrance of light. At that point they will cease to run when the light comes on and go about their roach business not realizing the exterminator will eventually arrive   

A bizarre way to make a point I'm sure but hey...why not keep the topic interesting?  ::shrug::  ::lookaround::

Reaching for the rope is not a base instinct, but is commanded by God.  Just as Paul commanded the jailer to believe, believing then is reaching and grabbing for the rope.  Faith is how God's grace is accessed, Rom 5:2, and believing (grabbing the rope) is accessing/receiving the salvation God made available.

Gomer if we are in the middle of a desert where it never rains and I tell you a flood is coming and you do not believe me....you are going to think I am crazy building a boat!

This is why Jesus said. " Just as in the days of Noah....."

People will be oblivious to the NEED of Salvation, go on living life as they always do, eating drinking getting married and having babies....look around you!

Everything is fine, everything is ok, they do not see any danger, they do not sense any peril a flood is not coming.....

From their perspective....
There is no reason to be saved and nothing to be saved from except having fun and enjoying the pleasures of this world

They don't see the rope as a rope but as a little insignificant thread if at all but certainly not as a lifeline!

This is what you're ignoring!

Our job is to tell everyone but make no mistake about it....everyone who hears you will not HEAR ( understand ) what you are talking about

They are called just the same as all of us

But only a few are chosen

Those are the ones appointed to Eternal Life

New International Version (©1984)
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

New Living Translation (©2007)
When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


 ::announcment:: Only HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE!
And who are His sheep?

The House of Israel.

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #145 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 21:20:29 »

Offline gospel

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #146 on: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 01:58:38 »
Quote from: gospel

Everyone does not believe they are drowning...so everyone will not reach out for the rope.

Then they will be lost for reaching for the rope is just as essential to being saved as the rope being thrown out.


Quote from: gospel
As for the reaching...again, it is the most base need of all life to stay alive. So the desire to live is expressed in reaching.
The reaching of something to hold on to in order to retain life is not so much a conscience decision borne out of logical rational thought but an instinctual reflexive action born out of a desire to live...in the face of eminent threat of death or danger.

Turn the light and on a cockroach....flees to safety

But eventually when they are allowed to become comfortable even they no longer associate or identify threat or the danger of death with the entrance of light. At that point they will cease to run when the light comes on and go about their roach business not realizing the exterminator will eventually arrive   

A bizarre way to make a point I'm sure but hey...why not keep the topic interesting?  ::shrug::  ::lookaround::

Reaching for the rope is not a base instinct, but is commanded by God.  Just as Paul commanded the jailer to believe, believing then is reaching and grabbing for the rope.  Faith is how God's grace is accessed, Rom 5:2, and believing (grabbing the rope) is accessing/receiving the salvation God made available.

Gomer if we are in the middle of a desert where it never rains and I tell you a flood is coming and you do not believe me....you are going to think I am crazy building a boat!

This is why Jesus said. " Just as in the days of Noah....."

People will be oblivious to the NEED of Salvation, go on living life as they always do, eating drinking getting married and having babies....look around you!

Everything is fine, everything is ok, they do not see any danger, they do not sense any peril a flood is not coming.....

From their perspective....
There is no reason to be saved and nothing to be saved from except having fun and enjoying the pleasures of this world

They don't see the rope as a rope but as a little insignificant thread if at all but certainly not as a lifeline!

This is what you're ignoring!

Our job is to tell everyone but make no mistake about it....everyone who hears you will not HEAR ( understand ) what you are talking about

They are called just the same as all of us

But only a few are chosen

Those are the ones appointed to Eternal Life

New International Version (©1984)
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

New Living Translation (©2007)
When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


 ::announcment:: Only HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE!
And who are His sheep?

The House of Israel.

Does that include you?  ::shrug::

Offline Jaime

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #147 on: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 06:14:11 »
It includes me, and all who have been grafted in. Scripture indicates that being grafted in transforms us into his sheep.

Offline grace

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #148 on: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 07:38:04 »
Great post by the op!

Grace is the undeserved favor and love of God toward mankind.

Some Grace passages:
"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:11)

"and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:24)

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6)

"As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation." (2 Corinthians 6:1-2)

"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich." (2 Corinthians 8:9)

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #148 on: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 07:38:04 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #149 on: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 08:54:01 »
Anyone who has to ask "who is Israel" has really missed the message the bible unfolds.

Offline gospel

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #150 on: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 13:34:13 »
It includes me, and all who have been grafted in. Scripture indicates that being grafted in transforms us into his sheep.

That's what I thought  ::shrug::

Anyone who has to ask "who is Israel" has really missed the message the bible unfolds.


May you missed it but recently we went through an entire thread referencing Israel as the 10 tribes scattered abroad as distinct from Judah

In that discussion some people asserted Israel was all of us, implying we are all Jews which to me is a little silly...

However I do agree with Jaime's recent answer that we are grafted into the Vine according to the New Covenant however

I do not believe we can claim to be of the House of Israel

Maybe you do....

I could be wrong but that's another discussion  ::shrug::




Offline Jaime

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #151 on: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 14:34:03 »
Gospel, the thread you are talking about, the jim Staley video thread stated that the lost 10 tribes of Israel are part of God's sheep, the same for those that attach themselves to Israel or the house of Jacob. That is very scriptural. God said in several places in the OT that his people (sheep) are the children of Israel and all who attach themselves to them. I have been attached, grafted in and so have you. The video seemed to imply what you said until the clarification at the end. No we aren't and don't have to be Jews, but we do have to be grafted into Israel (God's people or sheep).

Offline Gomer

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #152 on: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 15:50:41 »
Quote from: segell

Yes, of course I do.  But I read it differently than you, I suppose.  I believe the writer of Hebrews is, in effect, "He became the author of eternal salvation unto all who are His". Why?  Because we see in the Bible that the ones who obey Christ are His.  In fact that is the purpose of our salvation - to obey Him....not to obey in order to be saved.  This verse does not support a conditional salvation based on our obedience.  "All them that obey Him" are Christians, disciples or followers of Christ.

I have access to about 15 different translations of Heb 5:9 and not one even comes close to what you are saying here.  You have changed, re-arranged the verse to make it fit your theology.  There verse does not say one is His then one obeys.  The verse is saying Christ saves those that obey meaning no obedience = no salvation.  Many, many verses put obedience BEOFRE salvation you are trying to rearrange them.  You have one saved while still in disobedience, then after he is somehow saved in his disobedience he then obeys.  No one is saved while in disobedience for the disobedient are lost. Obedience is the only cure for disobedience.



 
Quote from: Segell
Gomer said:

Paul says you and I serve either one of two masters: we either serve (1) sin unto death or (2) obedience unto righteousness.

I serve (2).  Your theology has ruled out (2) and that leaves you with a very bad option.

Paul says obedience leads to righteousness, you deny this, so what other option do you have here?



Christians have been saved to obey Christ.  We know that what we do is not righteous.  What makes what we do righteous, Gomer?  What is Paul talking about?  Isn't it about one's desire to serve and follow Christ?  Isn't that what Christians desire?  Yours or my obedience will never be perfect.


You say "Christians have been saved to obey Christ".

Again, you still try to have one saved while in disobedience to Christ, then after they are saved they become obedient.  But no one is saved in their disobedience.

Paul said obedience UNTO righteousness you think it reads obedience BECAUSE of righteousness.  Paul is saying obedience leads to righteousness.  One cannot be righteous without doing righteousness, 1 Jn 3:7,

Quote from: segell
Romans 1:17For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 15:57:09 by Gomer »

Offline Gomer

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Re: What is Grace
« Reply #153 on: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 16:06:48 »
Quote from: gospel

Gomer if we are in the middle of a desert where it never rains and I tell you a flood is coming and you do not believe me....you are going to think I am crazy building a boat!

This is why Jesus said. " Just as in the days of Noah....."

People will be oblivious to the NEED of Salvation, go on living life as they always do, eating drinking getting married and having babies....look around you!

Everything is fine, everything is ok, they do not see any danger, they do not sense any peril a flood is not coming.....

From their perspective....
There is no reason to be saved and nothing to be saved from except having fun and enjoying the pleasures of this world

They don't see the rope as a rope but as a little insignificant thread if at all but certainly not as a lifeline!

This is what you're ignoring!

Our job is to tell everyone but make no mistake about it....everyone who hears you will not HEAR ( understand ) what you are talking about

They are called just the same as all of us



They are drowning and are lost whether they realize it or not and the only way they can be saved is by grabbing the rope.  The bottom line remains is that one has to grab the rope to be saved.


Quote from: gospel
But only a few are chosen

Those are the ones appointed to Eternal Life

New International Version (©1984)
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

New Living Translation (©2007)
When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


 ::announcment:: Only HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE!


This verse does not teach what Calvinists have twisted it to teach.  In the book of Acts Luke makes comparisons between those who hear and believe and those who hear and do not believe and he does that in this context.  The Jews of their own free will pushed God's word away from them.  If one of his own will can push God's word away then one of his own free will can accept God's word.  The Gentiles, unlike the Jews, for an entire week "besought that these words might be preached to them".  They determined themselves to believe as the Greek word tasso can be in the middle voice.

Some history I found about this verse:

"Were ordained to" is not the best translation of tetagmenoi, which is both the middle voice and the passive voice participle of tasso. This term means "to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e., assign or dispose (to a certain person or lot):--addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set" (Strong). An interlinear shows the Greek word order: "As many as believed had been appointed to eternal life" (The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament, Tyndale House). The verb's voice results in two translations. In the passive voice: "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (RSV). In middle voice: "As many as had set themselves for eternal life became believers" or "as many as were disposed to eternal life believed."

The passive voice is used in many English translations. This usage was influenced by Jerome changing the Greek term tasso translated in the old Latin as destinati or ordinati to praordinati, that is, predestination-ordained in English "to make the coming to faith and salvation the product of a predestinatory eternal degree" (Lenski). Augustine and the Western Church were influenced by this change. The Greek Orthodox Church, whose mother tongue was Greek, had no problem understanding the middle voice, and did not change their understanding of this verse (ref. Shank, Elect in the Son, p. 184).

Since the grammar is ambiguous, we need to interpret this verse in context. The Jews made their own decision to--as Paul said, "contradicting and blaspheming" (KJV, v. 45) and "thrust it [the Word of God; the Gospel message] from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life" (v. 46)--seal their own fate unless they repented. "If they abide not still in unbelief," then God could graft them in again" (Rom. 11:23). The Gentiles, hearing the word, also made their own decision, to believe the Good News.

Let us look at what several commentators wrote on this passage. Adam Clarke emphasized that the verb tasso "includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. . . . [it] signifies to place, set, order, appoint, dispose; hence it has been considered here as implying the disposition or readiness of mind of several persons in the congregation, such as the religious proselytes mentioned in ver. 43, who possessed the reverse of the disposition of those Jews who spake against those things, contradicting and blaspheming, ver. 45. . . . the [Gentiles], destitute of prejudice and prepossession, were glad to hear that, in the order of God, the Gentiles were included in the covenant of salvation through Christ Jesus; they, therefore, in this good state and order of mind, believed" (Adam Clarke, Clark's Commentary, Vol. 5: Matthew-Acts).

Robertson wrote: "There is no evidence that Luke had in mind absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had showed that God's plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away" (A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Acts, Vol. III, p. 200).

As Alford wrote: "The meaning of this word disposed must be determined by the context. The Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life: the Gentiles, as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed. By whom so disposed, is not here declared: nor need the word be in this place further particularized. We know, that it is God who worketh in us the will to believe, and that the preparation of the heart is of him: but to find in this text pre-ordination to life asserted, is to force both word and the context to a meaning which they do not contain" (Henry Alford, The Greek Testament, p. 153f.).

Shank wrote: "Rotherham's rendering 'had become disposed' is fully warranted. Citing examples, Bloomfield asserts (as do others) that the passive voice of tasso often conveys the middle sense and that the passive does not necessarily suppose an over-ruling impulse from without. The expression tassesthai may here have the sense it sometimes bears, 'to be thoroughly disposed for, or purposed for, bent on,' like the similar one euyhetos einat eis, to be fitly disposed for" (Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, p. 186).

Bartlet writes: "ordained to eternal life. A bad rendering, as suggesting that human choice had no real part in such belief. The idea is simply that of preparedness of heart, without any thought as to how this came about. This is clear from the account of the Jews' unreadiness: they 'judged themselves unworthy' (in the same sense of Matt. xxii:8, 'The wedding is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy'--i.e. as making light of it, verse 5). Thus all is conceived to turn ultimately on man's choice. Like the Pharisee in Luke vii:30, the Jews 'rejected for themselves the counsel of God.' No divine 'decree' ordained the results either way. The best rendering then would be, 'were (found) disposed to eternal life, which preserves the exact shade of the verb ('to set in order, arrange, dispose' [Thayer]) and just that degree of ambiguity which belongs to the original" (J. Vernon Bartlet, The New Century Bible: The Acts).

In summary, to ordain only a few to eternal life is contrary to the context of the Jews' deciding to reject the Good News, and contrary to God's character, that is, His holiness and love. Would a holy and loving God ordain some to eternal life and leave others go to hell? NO! The statement should translate: "As many as had set themselves for eternal life became believers" or "As many as believed had been appointed to eternal life."


The above in red is from:

 
http://www.bibleviews.com/election.html