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Offline surrendersacrifice

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What is the new covenant?
« on: December 18, 2011, 10:49:35 AM »
Thorough his sacrifice on the cross, Jesus established a new and eternal covenant between God and human beings. This covenant is a covenant of love, in which, Christ the bridegroom, purifies his bride, the Church (the people of God) by sacrificing his own life. Furthermore, He maintains an intimate communion with his people by feeding them with His sacrificial body and blood. Through this communion, his people not only establish a personal relationship with him, but also make him the Lord of their lives. Therefore, at the celebration of His Last Supper when we re-enter his sacrifice on the cross, we are celebrating the wedding feast of the Lamb in which He gives himself completely to us and we by receiving him accept his life as ours. Since, how we love God goes hand in hand with how we love our fellow human beings, the above form of love must also be present in marriage; which is also a covenant of love. Therefore a husband must completely give himself to his wife and the wife must completely accept him as her life. Furthermore, just as God is always faithful to his covenant with us although we betray him and are unfaithful to him by our sins; we too must faithful to our covenant with our spouse even if there is betrayal and unfaithfulness.
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What is the new covenant?
« on: December 18, 2011, 10:49:35 AM »

Online DaveW

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 12:21:37 PM »
Quote
Thorough his sacrifice on the cross, Jesus established a new and eternal covenant between God and human beings.
Actually it is more restrictive than that:

Jer 31:31  "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Gentiles were not in it initially, not until Acts 10. And then we were included for a reason:

Rom 11:11  I say then, they [Jews] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 12:21:37 PM »

Offline pointmade

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2011, 07:41:26 AM »
"Thorough his sacrifice on the cross, Jesus established a new and eternal covenant between God and human beings."

If this is true, then the writer of Hebrews got it wrong.
The new testament is between God and His Christ.
You may want to study Hebrews, chapters 9-10 again.
Note verse 17 of Hebrews 9, For a testament is of force
AFTER men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all
while the testator lives."



God had a covenant with the Jew; they refused to hold up their end.
As noted in Galatians 3:15.
The first covenant was confirmed before God in Christ to the Jew.
The second to the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive
the PROMISE through faith (Gal. 3:14).

"For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats should take
away sins."

His sacrifice on the cross was for mankind.
"Once for all" (Heb. 10:10,12)
Of course, in the RCC they do not believe this as they sacrifice Christ's body
a new each week at the Mass.

An unblemished Sacrificed could not be found in man!
This Perfect sacrifice could only be found in the "Lamb of God,
that taketh away the sins of the world" (John 1:29)
With whom God established the New Testament in His blood.
For Christ in not entered into the holy place made with hands,
which are the figures of the true; but into the heaven itself,
now to appear in the presence of God for us" (Heb. 9:24).









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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2011, 07:41:26 AM »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2011, 01:38:31 PM »
The answer is one chapter earlier, oh pointy one:

For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.  For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.  Hebrews 8:10-12 KJV

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2011, 01:38:31 PM »
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Offline HRoberson

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2011, 11:05:21 PM »
Truth be told, and while there may in fact be two covenants, the underlying expectations have been the same for all people since the beginning.

Israel had a covenant to be the People of God, or God's economy on Earth, through which the world would be blessed in their own time and through Jesus.

The church has a covenant to be the People of God, or God's economy on Earth, through which the world would be blessed in their own time and through Jesus.

The first covenant was not intended to keep people away from God, but rather to provide a People who would demonstrate to the world how God made them to be, and would bless the world simply by their being.

It can be argued that the church fills the same bill.

In both cases the covenant isn't designed to keep people from God but to introduce them to Him. And, unfortunately, the People of God don't do a very good job of either remaining faithful or introducing people to God.
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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2011, 11:05:21 PM »



Offline pointmade

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 08:31:30 AM »
The answer is one chapter earlier, oh pointy one:

For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.  For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.  Hebrews 8:10-12 KJV

Jarrod

Do I detect a little sarcasm Jarrod?
Written on your "heart" no doubt....
Let's take a look at Hebrews 8:10-12.

The Old was written on stone to the Israelites. (Ex. 34:1; Deut 4:1-5; 2 Cor. 3:7).
With the new covenant you cannot be a part of it unless you know in your
mind what it is.
The old was accomplished by birth, and then teaching.
With the new law it is accomplished by teaching and birth, "born again." (John 3:5).

Not sure what you render from chapter 8 that would nullify Jesus' sacrifice on the cross
as a covenant between God and His Christ.

What is written on your heart that I could count on that you would KEEP the covenant?
Was it your blood that entered in to the holy place having obtained eternal
redemption for me us" (Heb. 9:12)?
If not...you do not qualify to keep the covenant for ME
which is backed by the "Promise."


 

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 08:31:30 AM »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2011, 10:20:19 PM »
Not sure what you mean, pointmade.

You said it was in Heb 9-10.  I just pointed out that one ought to start in Heb 8, because the verses there articulate very clearly what the new covenant is.
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Offline Teresa

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 06:24:18 AM »
Actually it is more restrictive than that:

Jer 31:31  "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Gentiles were not in it initially, not until Acts 10. And then we were included for a reason:

Rom 11:11  I say then, they [Jews] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Actually it is not restrictive because the house of Israel was not just the OT tribe.

We are the new Israel.

And no, it is not through the Jews transgression that salvation has come to the Gentiles. It was part of God's plan from the beginning.
By His Wounds, we are healed.

Online DaveW

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 07:27:30 AM »
When Jeremiah wrote that he had no intention of gentiles being included.  It meant JUST the tribes of Israel.

And if you say " it is not through the Jews transgression that salvation has come to the Gentiles," you are contradicting scripture. Rom 11.11

Yes, the prophets of old did see the inclusion of the Gentiles. God knew it would happen. But in Rom 11.11 Paul tells us WHY.

Take the scripture at its face value.  Don't read a lot of gentile tradition into it.

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 07:27:30 AM »

Offline lamakin

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 08:40:48 AM »
"Thorough his sacrifice on the cross, Jesus established a new and eternal covenant between God and human beings."

If this is true, then the writer of Hebrews got it wrong.
The new testament is between God and His Christ.



Can you please give a certain passage in Hebrews that points this out, because the point of the New Covenant is to take away sin and that is exactly what Hebrews 9:28 and 10:12 make abundantly clear, and that it was Jesus (10:12) that accomplished this for people just as the old order (9:7) once did it.

If it had just been between God and Jesus, what would it have accomplished?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 08:54:28 AM by lamakin »

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 08:40:48 AM »

Offline Teresa

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2012, 05:33:58 AM »
When Jeremiah wrote that he had no intention of gentiles being included.  It meant JUST the tribes of Israel.
That is true if you read it as a Jew.  But we also know that the early Christians have always seen in these writings a promise that is much larger than the tribe of Israel.
Quote
And if you say " it is not through the Jews transgression that salvation has come to the Gentiles," you are contradicting scripture. Rom 11.11
Paul was writing this to explain how the Gospel has been preached to the gentiles.  As Paul also explained, if Jews believed then even more so will they be enrichment for the gentiles.

So even if the Jews had believed Gospel would still have been preached to the Gentiles for that is God's will.

The first Christian community in Jerusalem would have been comprised mostly of Jews.
By His Wounds, we are healed.

Online DaveW

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2012, 06:05:45 AM »
When Jeremiah wrote that he had no intention of gentiles being included.  It meant JUST the tribes of Israel.
That is true if you read it as a Jew.  But we also know that the early Christians have always seen in these writings a promise that is much larger than the tribe of Israel.
"True if you read it as a Jew."

ALL the original believers were Jews. All the writers of the NT were Jews (possible exception was Luke) To me that makes it the definitive intrepretation.  I know the early gentiles reacted and took their own intrepretation, but that does not make it right.  As Paul said in Romans 3.2  "...the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God."  Not the gentile believers.
Quote
As Paul also explained, if Jews believed then even more so will they be enrichment for the gentiles.
Not 'IF' but 'WHEN.' They will come in by the droves.
Quote
So even if the Jews had believed Gospel would still have been preached to the Gentiles for that is God's will.
That is unclear.  God willed it in order to bring Israel back to Himself and since God knew that would happen from the begining, it is mentioned in the Prophets frequently.

It is probably not a good idea to fantasize about what might have happened if things went differently than how God knew they would go.

Offline lamakin

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2012, 09:24:25 AM »

Yes, the prophets of old did see the inclusion of the Gentiles.

Can you tell me which prophets saw the inclusion of the Gentiles?

Online DaveW

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2012, 11:15:16 AM »
Yes, the prophets of old did see the inclusion of the Gentiles.
Can you tell me which prophets saw the inclusion of the Gentiles?
The most prolific one was Isaiah.

11.10
34.1
42.1
49.22
60.3
65.1
66.19

Offline Teresa

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Re: What is the new covenant?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 04:44:28 AM »
"True if you read it as a Jew."

ALL the original believers were Jews. All the writers of the NT were Jews (possible exception was Luke) To me that makes it the definitive intrepretation.  I know the early gentiles reacted and took their own intrepretation, but that does not make it right.  As Paul said in Romans 3.2  "...the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God."  Not the gentile believers.
So you are you trying to say that the reading of the OT should be limited to the Jewish interpretation?

Quote
Not 'IF' but 'WHEN.' They will come in by the droves.
Yes, "IF".  If the Jews had believed they would still have come in by the droves so therefore the preaching of the gospel to the gentiles is not because it was rejected by the Jews.
Quote
That is unclear.  God willed it in order to bring Israel back to Himself and since God knew that would happen from the begining, it is mentioned in the Prophets frequently.
According to Paul it is clear. As you said above "not IF butWHEN".
Quote
It is probably not a good idea to fantasize about what might have happened if things went differently than how God knew they would go.
It is not fantasizing. It is common sense based on what Paul has already written. If the 'WHEN" you are talking about had happened then, then based on what Paul has said, the gentiles would still have receieved the Gospel.  The Jewish religion was not particularly evangelical in character, but if Christianity is.
By His Wounds, we are healed.