Christian Forums and Message Board

But speaking of fundamentally inappropriate constructs, that is precisely what you are doing with the constructs of The "eternal phase" , the "legal phase",,,,, the "vital phase" ....., the "practical phase" ....., the "final phase" ...... of sanctification, of justification, or of salvation.

If God declares a person to be righteous, then it is so.  There are no phases in His doing so. When God accounts a person's believing, as in Abraham's case, to him as righteousness, it is so. A person thus justified is simply that, he is justified. It is a one-time single action by God.  The same is true of regeneration; there are no phases of regeneration.  In a real sense, it is true of sanctification also.  The difference is that while regeneration and justification are one-time actions by God, sanctification is both a one-time action by God and an on-going process by the individual. I could elaborate on that if you like, but I shouldn't think that would be necessary.

RB Congratulations... You have once again confused matters with back to back sentences that seem to contradict what you actually say.

  4WD on: Yesterday at 09:38:07

Quote

Justification is the declaration of righteousness.

Agreed

 4WD

Quote

When we are justified, we are declared righteous

Careful with your wording! It is not when we are, but when we were!  Legally, it happened before we were ever born!

Quote from: Paul a preacher of FREE justification by grace alone

Quote

Romans 4:25~"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

Paul said we were justified at the resurrection of Jesus Christ, legally speaking in God's sight! I'll go with Paul.

I say contradict because youhave maintained... for as long as I can remember that justification happened before we were born.

You say that here. You say that  "Legally, it happened before we were ever born!"

So a big question is WHEN did one become unjutified?

Please try to follow what I am saying.

If before we are born we are legally justified (declared righteous)..... then we must have lost it after we are born at some point for PAUL to have said "Paul said we were justified at the resurrection of Jesus Christ, legally speaking in God's sight!

Romans 4:25~"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

Paul does not say they were justified from before birth... Paul says in Romans 4:25 it was the crucifixion/resurection that offered the justification.

YOU CANNOT HAVE BEFORE BIRTH, THEN AGAIN WHEN JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS.

If it was before birth then after birth it has to have been lost.

And in my opinion 4WD is correct when he says

Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 09:38:07
we are, as was Abraham, credited as righteous when we believe

Once again you fail to discriminate between the work of the Holy Spirit of indwelling, which is given for each and every individual who is saved, and the work of the Holy Spirit of empowering, which was given for a few selected individuals to perform signs, wonders, and miracles.

In Acts 10:47 Peter is referring to the event described in verse 44. There the Holy Spirit fell on, came upon, all who "heard the word" that Peter just spoke.  That the Holy Spirit did so was evidenced by the fact that they spoke in tongues. That was an empowering by the Holy Spirit to perform the miracle of speaking in tongues. It was not the gift of indwelling that occurs when a repentant believer is baptized (Acts 2:38).  that was Peter's whole point in verse 47. If the Holy Spirit had empowered those gentiles to perform miracles like happened at Pentecost, then who could withhold the baptizing of them to receive forgiveness of their sins and receive the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.

Later I want to address this after I post my article on Justification. If I forget, please by all means remind me to come back to this post of ours.

Acts 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" from the NAS version.
 RB you said "  It is impossible to refute these words of Peter concerning which comes FIRST. Only folks who hold to a biased agenda would attempt to do so."

It might just be your biased agenda that keeps you from seeing the truth. Let us reason this out and keep it in context.

Let's put more of the text with it to keep it in context.

Yogi, I stand by what I said, and your post truly proves not one thing that would overthrow my statement.

Yogi, if adding more of Acts ten to keep this in its context, then by all means let us do so.

Before I do so, let me correct both you and 4WD, I'm not the least confused about what 4WD first posted:

Once again you fail to discriminate between the work of the Holy Spirit of indwelling, which is given for each and every individual who is saved, and the work of the Holy Spirit of empowering, which was given for a few selected individuals to perform signs, wonders, and miracles.

Are you two ready to deny Cornelius was not saved (in a regenerate sense) while the Holy Ghost fell on them BEFORE they were baptized? If you say yes, then you have a serious problem to address in Acts 2, where Peter told them on Pentecost that enquire what they must do to receive what he had by telling them to Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and they too WOULD RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit!

Actually, both Cornelius and his household and those who enquired of Peter in Acts 2~both were regenerated before water baptism!

First, Cornelius......

Acts 10:1-2~“There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.”

Acts 10:34-35~“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”

Corneluis did BOTH before he ever saw or heard Peter's voice! Cornelius was accepted with God, born again by the Spirit of God, and in possession of eternal life long before he heard of Peter, for his righteous actions and God’s declarations about him prove this easy conclusion. No unregenerate man can or will do the things that Cornelius did fervently and zealously, which things were accepted by God in heaven!

Cornelius had been elected by God the Father before the world began (2nd Timothy 1:9); the Son of God had obeyed and died for him some years earlier (Hebrews 10:10-14); and the Spirit had applied the work in the vital act of regeneration during his life (Titus 3:5). Peter, states these three facts plainly for all who will read (Ist Peter 1:2).

God had already made an incredible change in his life by giving him a heart that separated him from other Italians. The life-giving voice of the Lord Jesus Christ had called for him to live spiritually, and he lived as certainly as Lazarus came forth from the tomb. He only needed Peter to loose him from some Roman and Jewish burial clothes!

Peter brought the gospel to save Cornelius from despair over his sins (Luke 7:36-50; Rom 7:24-25), from Jewish ignorance of salvation (Romans 10:1-5), from Roman idolatry and superstition (Ist Thess 1:9-10), from ignorance about life and immortality (2nd Timothy 1:9-10), and from confusion about the resurrection (Ist Corinthians 15:2). He needed to learn the way of God more perfectly (Acts 18:24-28), and how to prove his election (2nd Peter 1:5-11), including that repentance, baptism, (Acts 2:37-47).

It is absurd to make Cornelius a lost sinner that pleased God by works of the flesh! It is absurd to believe he had to make some silly decision for Jesus in order to be justified and born again. He was already serving the Lord far beyond a fleshly decision. He needed Peter to direct his new man in the way of righteousness, not help him get born again.

The word of God is plain. Except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3). The kingdom of God cannot be shown to a man not born again, because he cannot and will not see it. If a man believes on Jesus, he is already born again (Ist John 5:1). If he loves the brethren, he is already born again (Ist John 4:7). If he does righteousness, he is already born again (Ist John 2:29). These are evidences of eternal life! There are NO CONDITIONS.

Men do not want a sovereign God, so they corrupt the doctrine of salvation to make their own freewill their saviour. They want to be in charge. Because Cornelius is an extensive salvation story, they corrupt it as well. They make Peter and Cornelius cooperating saviours. We believe Jesus Christ saved Cornelius by Himself … before he met Peter!

Acts 2:37,38~"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I'll come back to these two scriptures later, so as not to make this post too long

First off RB, the phrase "cut to the heart" has nothing to do with being regenerated or not being regenerated.  That phrase which you pointed out occurs in Acts 2:37 and Acts 7:54 also appears in Acts 5:33.

“Cut to the Heart” is a metaphor that means to be overcome with emotional anguish, grief and/or suffering. It is simply an emotional response to something that they heard or saw.  It is independent upon whether it leads to actions that are good or bad.  In Acts 2:37 it is an emotional response to learning that they had participated in the killing of the very messiah that they had been waiting for.  It led to the good actions of repenting of their actions; understandably they asked Peter and the apostles, "what are we going to do now".  Peter answered them.

In both Acts 5:33 and 7:54 the emotional response led to bad actions.  In the first case, the high priest and the council (v.27) were so enraged that they wanted to kill the apostles.  Fortunately, Gamaliel persuaded them not to.  In the second case, the response of the people led to their stoning Stephen to death.

There is nothing in all three cases that suggests anything about being regenerated.  However, I would argue that in the Acts 2:37 case it did lead to their believing that Peter was telling them the truth that they had crucified the very messiah they were waiting for.  That truth, then led them to remorseful repentance and being baptized at which time, God forgave their sins and gave them the gift, the indwelling, Holy Spirit; that is, as a result they were born again, they were regenerated.

They were baptized for forgiveness i.e., UNTO forgiveness.  RB, there is simply no way to translate/interpret that to mean "because of".  To do so is a complete rejection of what Peter actually said.

“Cut to the Heart” is a metaphor that means to be overcome with emotional anguish, grief and/or suffering. It is simply an emotional response to something that they heard or saw.  It is independent upon whether it leads to actions that are good or bad.  In Acts 2:37 it is an emotional response to learning that they had participated in the killing of the very messiah that they had been waiting for.  It led to the good actions of repenting of their actions; understandably they asked Peter and the apostles, "what are we going to do now".  Peter answered them.

In both Acts 5:33 and 7:54 the emotional response led to bad actions.  In the first case, the high priest and the council (v.27) were so enraged that they wanted to kill the apostles.  Fortunately, Gamaliel persuaded them not to.  In the second case, the response of the people led to their stoning Stephen to death.

4WD, I understand clearly the differences between the two and used them to help others see why Peter said what he did in Acts 2:38, that should help any person to understand the purpose of Peter's words and his use of "for" in Acts 2:38.

Being pricked in one heart is a deep conviction of the truth of what that person is hearing is TRUE~totally unlike being "cut to the heart" which shows a hatred of what that person is hearing goes against what he desires to believe and his anguish of spirit of not wanting to hear what is being spoken~in each case, it PROVES who are regenerated and who are NOT just as it does in Acts 2:37 and Acts 5:33. 7:54!

As I said, Peter sitting under Christ for three plus years LEARN to detect such people and understood what to say to each once he saw the reaction of their spirit toward the word of God. Matthew 10:14; Mark 6:11 and Luke 9:5 We still do the same today, and so do you if you would only confess you do.

They were baptized for forgiveness i.e., UNTO forgiveness.  RB, there is simply no way to translate/interpret that to mean "because of".

4WD, it is not about the translation, but following the FLOW OF THE CONTEXT my friend.