Author Topic: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification  (Read 1347 times)

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Offline yogi bear

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What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 14:08:20 »
 This is one topic that really has me scratching my head.

Is one justified to be sanctified or are they totally different aspects or what?

What is the definition of each?

If justification means God has declared one righteous then where does sanctification fit in it is where baptism comes into play right?

That is why I ask if one is justified to be sanctified?

Offline yogi bear

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #1 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 14:15:07 »
Jaime, 4WD, Jarrod,Alan, Rella, Mommydi, Alan, TC, Reformer, and Red I need your help. Anyone else that I forgot that is following that has input will be helpful also. Thank you all in advance.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 14:18:55 by yogi bear »

Offline Jaime

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #2 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 18:38:50 »
To me we are justified or declared righteous by our faith in Christ. Sanctification is the Holy Soirit changing us in a lifelong process to BE more like Christ.

I know there is more to it than that, but that is Jaime’s thumbnail sketch.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 18:41:22 by Jaime »

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #3 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 19:42:17 »
So we are justified by faith meaning we are declared righteous so why baptism?

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #3 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 19:42:17 »

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #4 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:23:45 »
We are saved by grace through faith in baptism.  Baptism is the occasion in which God has promised the forgiveness of sin and the receiving of the gift of the [indwelling] Holy Spirit to the repentant believer. That doesn't mean He could do so otherwise, but the promise He made and the Biblical evidence that He does is there for all to see.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #4 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:23:45 »

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #5 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 20:36:44 »
yogi, I will try to provide you with my brief answers.  But not tonight.  I will try get to it tomorrow, God willing.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #6 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 21:27:27 »
4WD thank you will be waiting to read your thoughts.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #7 on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 23:35:03 »
To be justified is to be forgiven. To be sanctified is to be set apart to God as His child. Both occur at baptism.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #8 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 00:12:02 »
This is one topic that really has me scratching my head.

Is one justified to be sanctified or are they totally different aspects or what?

What is the definition of each?

If justification means God has declared one righteous then where does sanctification fit in it is where baptism comes into play right?

That is why I ask if one is justified to be sanctified?
Both words have multiple definitions.  If you're assigning a single definition to them, you're going to be wrong more often than you're right.

Justification can mean (a) you did right, or (b) you were legally acquitted, or (c) you won an argument, or (d) you explained yourself.

Is there a certain passage you're looking at?


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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #8 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 00:12:02 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #9 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 05:45:48 »
Yogi, as to your response #3 to me, i would say baptism is a faith response, one God asks of us. To me faith and baptism are one thing. In the first century they were not segregated like today. Yes baptism is an essential faith response. When I say we are saved by faith in Christ, that is not exclusive of baptism in my mind. To someone intent on parsing baptism from faith, excluding baptism from faith IS their whole motivation. We can’t parse belief from faith either. In my opinion the first century folks would be very puzzled by our debates on this.

As to comparing justification and sanctification, justification is an event, sanctification is a life long process in my opinion. Yes sanctification is being set apart, but it also involves making us more and more like Christ over time.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 05:54:21 by Jaime »

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #10 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 06:23:07 »
It is no secret that I am not a fan of so many of the songs now being sung in our churches today.  It is called praise music; but most is little more than not very good Rock&Roll songs. Compared to so many of the great hymns they are mostly lacking in any real biblical meaning.  But that is another topic.  However, one of those really great old hymns is Rock of Ages.  The first verse of that hymn is as follows:

Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood, From Thy riven side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure, Cleanse me from its guilt and power.


I want to draw attention to the last line, there, that is, “Be of sin the double cure, Cleanse me from its guilt and power.”  I doubt that most people singing that song even thought about or even less understands what that line says.  The hymn in that third line calls upon the blood of Christ to “be of sin the double cure”. So what is to be understood by that? Well first it seems apparent that there is a “double trouble” that needs a “double cure”.  What is the double trouble? The hymn itself identifies that as the guilt and power of sin.

On the one hand, sin makes us guilty. Guilt is a wrong relationship with the law of God, involving the liability to punishment.  On the other hand, sin gives a sinful or depraved nature.  It infects the spirit (and the body) with spiritual weakness and corruption.

Now because the sinner’s problem is twofold  -- a “double trouble”, grace as the content of salvation must also be twofold --  a “double cure”.  The first aspect of salvation received by the believing, penitent sinner is justification, which solves the problem of guilt and removes all punishment. God as Judge declares that the penalty for sin no longer applies to us. The second aspect of salvation, resulting from the gift of the indwelling Spirit, consists of the divine works of regeneration and sanctification. God as Physician cures the disease of sin that afflicts our natures, thus resolving the problem of spiritual corruption and restoring us to spiritual wholeness.

We may think of justification both as a specific act of God upon the sinner by virtue of which the sinner passes from the lost state to the saved state, and as the continuing state in which the saved person exists. The Christian may say both “I have been justified” (the act), and “I am justified” (the state). Our main concern here is the act.  Justification means something God does. Indeed, it means a very specific thing God does. It is true that God also regenerates, sanctifies, and glorifies; but these are not the same as justification. Justification has a distinct meaning. What is this meaning? The noun usually translated “justification” is dikaiosis; the verb “to justify” is dikaioo. These terms are from the same word family as “righteous” (dikaios) and “righteousness” (dikaiosyne), which suggests that justification has something to do with righteousness. The problem is to identify the proper connection between them.

“To justify” means not to make righteous, but to declare righteous, to count or accept as righteous. The state of justification is not an ever-increasing holiness of character, but a complete right legal standing before the law of God and a freedom from the law’s penalty.  To count or accept as righteous is the specific words that Paul used in speaking about Abraham being justified by faith.  He said, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3). Paul went on to describe what this meant when he quoted David from Psalm 32:1-2; Paul said, "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin" (Rom 4:7-8).

A great deal more can be said about justification, but I will leave it there for now.  Under the New Covenant salvation is more than forgiveness of sins.  As I noted above, sin causes two basic problems for sinners, the “double trouble”.  It makes us guilty and produces an inner sickness, weakness or corruption of the spirit. As I explained above, God’s gracious salvation includes a remedy for each of these problems. In the first part of this “double cure,” justification or forgiveness solves the problem of our guilt. But if that were all there is to salvation, we would still be weak and helpless and held down by the chains of sin. We would be unable to make much headway in conquering our sinful habits, tendencies, and desires.

But maybe that does not matter. After all, if we are justified by grace through faith, are works even necessary? Do we still have to obey God’s commands? Does it really matter whether we keep on sinning or not (Rom 6:1)? We can understand how some may be prompted to ask such questions, since the gospel of grace is so amazing, even radical, when compared with ordinary concepts. But, of course, sin still matters! How could anyone even think otherwise (Rom 6:2)? This is why God has made provision not only to remove our guilt, but also to restore our sin-weakened natures to a state of spiritual life and health. This is the second part of the “double cure” in which God destroys sin’s power over us and makes us pure.

The remedy by which God accomplishes this begins with an event usually called regeneration, and continues with a process usually called sanctification. This aspect of salvation is very different from justification. Whereas justification is an objective, legal change in our relationship to God’s law, regeneration and sanctification references out inward behavior.

Regeneration is an instantaneous, onetime event that happens in the moment of conversion. Here I am using the term conversion to mean that moment when a sinner passes from his lost state into the saved state. Viewed as to its cause, regeneration is a divine act, a work that God the Holy Spirit performs upon the sinful soul. Viewed as to its effect, regeneration is an inward change in the sinner’s very nature. This is not a legal change, though the change (justification) does occur at the same moment as regeneration. Nor is it simply a moral change, i.e., a voluntary change of mind and heart that the sinner himself accomplishes through an act of his own will as motivated by the gospel. Such a moral change (faith and repentance) occurs prior to regeneration and is a prerequisite for it, but it is not the same as regeneration and cannot of its own power produce regeneration. Rather, regeneration is a metaphysical change, a change that takes place within the very essence of the soul.

Regeneration is an event that happens in a single moment, but its effects are meant to be eternal. It is the beginning point for a process that lasts throughout this life and reaches perfection in heaven. This process is usually called sanctification. The term “sanctification” is part of the word family having to do with holiness. The OT word for “holy” (qadosh) most likely comes from a word that means “to cut, to divide, to separate.” Thus a holy person or thing is one that is separated or set apart from others.

In the NT the main adjective for “holy” is hagios. Variations are the verb hagiazo, “to make holy, to set apart or consecrate, to sanctify”; and the noun hagiasmos, “holiness, sanctification, consecration.” Thus sanctification is basically the same concept as holiness. We should also note that the adjective hagios is often used as a noun, i.e., “holy one.” When used thus of Christians, it is usually translated “saint.”

For Christians there are two main aspects of sanctification, corresponding to the two senses in which God is holy. The first aspect may be called initial sanctification, which refers to the onetime event in which the unsaved person joins the ranks of the saved, the moment in which he is set apart from the world as such, from his old way of life, and from “this present evil age” (Gal 1:4). It is a change of status or change of position in relation to God and in relation to the world. It transfers the sinner from the domain of darkness into the Kingdom of Christ (Col 1:13). Just as God in his ontological holiness is ever set apart from and distinct from the creation as such, so does the sinner in his conversion transcend the old (sinful and condemned) creation and become identified with the new creation (2 Cor 5:17; Eph 2:10). This act of initial sanctification is mentioned in 1 Cor 6:11, “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” That it is a onetime event; it is a completed past action. It is not equivalent to regeneration, but it is the result of regeneration and of the justification mentioned here. Being justified and regenerated is the very thing that sets the Christian apart from the world of unsaved sinners. That this initial sanctification is not due to our own efforts is also clear from this verse; it occurs only through the power of Jesus’ name and through the power of the Spirit. Indeed, it may correspond to the concept of being sealed with the Spirit (Eph 1:13; 2 Cor 1:22). A seal is a mark of ownership; thus, the Spirit’s presence marks Christians as being set apart from the rest of the world and belonging to God. See 1 Peter 1:1-2.

Everyone who has been thus washed, sanctified, and justified is a saint, a holy one, a separated one. Saints are not an elite group of especially righteous Christians; every member of the body of Christ is a saint, a set-apart one (Acts 9:13,32; Rom 1:7; 15:25-26; 1 Cor 1:2; Phil 1:1), sanctified in this initial sense.

The second aspect of sanctification may be called progressive sanctification, because it is the ongoing process in which the Christian becomes more and more separated from sin itself. This aspect of sanctification is not a change in status or relationships, but a continuing transformation of our inward character and mental attitudes, as well as our outward behavior and conduct. This is how we “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Pet 3:18), and “work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). In this aspect of sanctification, we become more and more like God in righteousness and holiness of truth (Eph 4:22-24). Our pattern and goal are God’s own holiness, as we are commanded to imitate his perfect moral character: “But like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy’” (1 Pet 1:15-16). As Jesus says it, “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt 5:48). Our goal is to “share His holiness” (Heb 12:10) or to “become partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet 1:4) in this moral sense. We are to purify ourselves, even as he is pure (1 John 3:3). See Luke 1:75; Rom 6:19,22; 2 Cor 6:14–7:1; 1 Thess 3:13; 4:7.

There is really so much more to be said about justification and sanctification, but this is already too long and probably will not be read by most.

It is however my brief answer that I promised yogi.  I want all to know that much of this I have taken from Jack Cottrell in his excellent book, "The Faith Once For All", available from College Press Publishing Company.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #11 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 07:50:57 »
johntwayne thank you for your response that was my thoughts as well.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #12 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 07:55:56 »
Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thank you for your response. I really did not have a verse in mind just the concept of the teaching behind you are  justified you are sanctified.

Kind of like what johntwayne said.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #13 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 07:58:14 »
Jaime thank you brother for your remarks I agree with what you said I was just trying to see if others had the same agreement as me or if I was more confused on the subject than I thought.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #14 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 08:02:04 »
4WD thank you so much brother for your response it was most helpful. I totally agree with what you posted it cleared up the confusion that I had on this subject. It was well  laid out and very informative. Again thank you for your time brother.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #15 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 09:45:54 »
Withdrawn ::lookaround::
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 09:56:16 by Rella »

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #16 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 10:36:12 »
Justification - us in Christ Jesus on the cross.

Mat 10:38  And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Sanctification-  Christ in us by the indwelling of His Holy Spirit

Joh 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him..............................
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Justification and Sanctification equal oneness with God.

Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 10:38:35 by Amo »

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #17 on: Sun Aug 21, 2022 - 14:50:55 »
I'll post sometime this week, maybe tomorrow.
Quote from: 4WD
There is really so much more to be said about justification and sanctification, but this is already too long and probably will not be read by most.
I read all posts including yours and Jack Cottrell, and will do so again in the morning. He's way off, but let me read it again before posting.
Quote
1st Corinthians 1:30~"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"
A wonderful verse that we shall consider.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #18 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 04:25:14 »
Is one justified to be sanctified or are they totally different aspects or what?
Each are a "Facets of Salvation"~toally different aspect of Salvation along with: reconciliation; atonement; redemption; propitiation; ransom; forgiveness; satisfaction; pardon; mediation; acceptance; imputation; purchase; adoption, etc.
Quote from:  yogi bear on: Sat Aug 20, 2022 - 14:08:20
What is the definition of each?
Let us start with sanctification. Let us start where God's word starts.
 
The "eternal phase" of sanctification is God’s plan and purpose in eternity past to make His elect holy from sin. God planned salvation, to reveal His glorious perfections to the universe, before creating.

Salvation was not remedial, but rather revelatory. He planned sin and the solution to it. His holy nature cannot accept or approve defiled objects, so He planned to make us holy.

He chose Jesus for our sanctification, and He chose us in Him, by grace (Ist Corinthians 1:30-31). I'm going to only give references to keep this as short as possible~ each reader should read the scriptures for themselves for proof of what I'm saying.

God elected us in Christ before time to receive the blessing of holiness (Ephesians 1:3-6). It is this sense of eternal sanctification that Jude applied to God the Father (Jude 1:1).

The legal phase is the purchase of holiness in the sight of God by the death of Jesus Christ. God is perfectly holy; He can only accept persons and things that have been made holy. An infinite price must be paid to consecrate the elect sufficiently for God’s holy pleasure. Everything in Moses’ law was sanctified, often by blood, to picture Christ (Hebrews 9:13). Christ secured perfect sanctification for the elect by His bloody death (Hebrews 10:4-14). He secured it according to the will of God (Hebrews 10:10 cp John 6:38 cp Ephesians 1:5).

Legal sanctification is once for all (Hebrews10:10), forever (10:12), and perfected (10:14). Our practical entering into the worship of God is based on Christ’s blood (Heb 10:19-22). The sanctification of God’s people is by the bloody suffering of Christ (Hebrews 13:12). The sanctification of Christ’s brethren is already complete by Christ’s word (Hebrews 2:11). The new covenant sees the sanctifying effect of Christ’s blood (Hebrews 10:29; Colossians 1:20-22). Even though OT saints were just as holy and some understood this truth~Psalms 32. Observe that even the carnal Corinthians were referred to as being sanctified (Ist Corinthians 1:2).

The vital phase is the creation of a new nature for the elect saint with the holiness of God. The elect, though sanctified in God’s mind by Christ, still have defiled and vile natures. They need a new, holy nature created by the Holy Spirit in the work of regeneration. Christ’s death and the Holy Spirit’s sanctification are related (Ist Pet 1:2; Ephesians 5:25-27). The new man created in us is created in righteousness and true holiness (Ephesians 4:24). This creative change made by God is ascribed to the Spirit (Ist Corinthians 6:11; 2nd Thess. 2:13). Sanctification at this stage is not a process, nor imperfect, nor unequal among the elect.

The practical phase is working out the holiness of the new man into a holy life without sin. Chosen to holiness, purchased as holy, and with a holy nature, we still have an old man. After spending eleven chapters describing grace, Paul exhorts to holiness (Romans 12:1-2). We sanctify ourselves to the Lord by choosing to be holy for the Lord (Leviticus 20:7). Paul exhorted the Thessalonians to do God’s will and sanctify themselves (Ist Thess 4:1-7). We are called to be holy, since God our Father is holy; this is our duty (Ist Pet 1:15-16). In light of the promises He has offered, we are to perfect holiness in His fear (2nd Corinthians 7:1). Christ’s blood (Hebrews 9:13-14) and God’s chastening (12:10-14) constrain us to holiness. Practical sanctification is man’s duty (Ist Pet 1:22; James 4:8; Ist John 3:2; Luke 22:32; Revelation 3:2).

The final phase is when we are made completely holy for the holy presence of the holy God. The sanctification we yet need is for our vile bodies to be changed and our old man killed. Beyond practical sanctification, Paul prayed for God to sanctify wholly (Ist Thess 5:23-24). Freedom from bodily corruption, or glorification, is God’s final work (Romans 8:21-23,30).

Next Justification. Btw, neither of these two doctrines is connected with water baptism regardless of what men may think, teach, and the spiritual gymnastics they may employ in their use of the scriptures to attempt to prove so. We shall cover this after looking into justification.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #19 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 06:43:03 »
I'll post sometime this week, maybe tomorrow. I read all posts including yours and Jack Cottrell, and will do so again in the morning. He's way off, but let me read it again before posting. A wonderful verse that we shall consider.
Of course you would think that Cottrell is way off.  How could you not?  Your false soteriology derives from the false doctrine of Total Depravity.

I am sure that you know that Cottrell is really my go-to modern theologian. A part of that is because I know him, personally even if he doesn't remember me, from my couple of years at our Bible seminary.  He was a couple of years ahead of me and far ahead of me intellectually.  Even as an undergraduate student, he filled in a couple of times in my Greek class in the absence of the instructor/professor.

He finished his undergraduate work at the Cincinnati Bible Seminary, went on to receive his Master of Divinity at Westminster Theological Seminary and a PhD in theology from Princeton Theological Seminary.

I am particularly impressed with his MDiv from Westminster because, as I am sure you know, Westminster is a Protestant theological seminary in the Reformed theological tradition, i.e., essentially Calvinism.  With that and his time at Prinston, he is well versed in the basic tenets of Calvinism and well understands the weaknesses and failures of that theology.

The other reason that I enjoy reading him is that most of the time he agrees with me  ::smile::

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #20 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 06:55:00 »

The "eternal phase" of sanctification .....
The legal phase ......
The vital phase .....
The practical phase .....
The final phase ......
These are all fundamentally inappropriate constructs created to align with a totally false soteriology.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #21 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 07:04:41 »
Of course you would think that Cottrell is way off.  How could you not?  Your false soteriology derives from the false doctrine of Total Depravity.

I am sure that you know that Cottrell is really my go-to modern theologian. A part of that is because I know him, personally even if he doesn't remember me, from my couple of years at our Bible seminary.  He was a couple of years ahead of me and far ahead of me intellectually.  Even as an undergraduate student, he filled in a couple of times in my Greek class in the absence of the instructor/professor.

He finished his undergraduate work at the Cincinnati Bible Seminary, went on to receive his Master of Divinity at Westminster Theological Seminary and a PhD in theology from Princeton Theological Seminary.

I am particularly impressed with his MDiv from Westminster because, as I am sure you know, Westminster is a Protestant theological seminary in the Reformed theological tradition, i.e., essentially Calvinism.  With that and his time at Princeton, he is well versed in the basic tenets of Calvinism and well understands the weaknesses and failures of that theology.

The other reason that I enjoy reading him is that most of the time he agrees with me  ::smile::
Concerning Princeton Theological Seminary~it was at one time a stronghold for Calvinism, especially so in its beginning, but that no longer is that so for the last two hundred years, more or less.
Quote from: 4WD
he is well versed in the basic tenets of Calvinism and well understands the weaknesses and failures of that theology.
I'm sure he is well versed in Calvinism, and Calvinism does have its weakness, yet overall, are on the right path of salvation from sin and condemnation by grace, yet they have a little trouble with subject of faith and the purpose of the gospel as it has reference to the salvation of sinners. As you know by now, I'm not a Calvinist in the true sense of Calvinism.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #22 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 07:30:10 »
As you know by now, I'm not a Calvinist in the true sense of Calvinism.
Yes, I do know that; however both you and Calvinism have been sabotaged by the false concept of Total Depravity.  And frankly, the real heresy of that doctrine is not so much what it says about mankind, but rather the repulsive character trait it accredits to God.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #23 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 07:50:49 »
Yes, I do know that; however both you and Calvinism have been sabotaged by the false concept of Total Depravity.  And frankly, the real heresy of that doctrine is not so much what it says about mankind, but rather the repulsive character trait it accredits to God.
From your understanding, not from God's testimony. So much could be said on this, maybe later.

Next....justification.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #24 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 07:53:05 »
Jaime, 4WD, Jarrod, Alan, Rella, Mommydi, Alan, TC, Reformer, and Red I need your help. Anyone else that I forgot that is following that has input will be helpful also. Thank you all in advance.
Also, Dan p

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #25 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 08:00:06 »
From your understanding....
From your teaching.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #26 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 08:05:46 »
Baptism is a submission of faith and is a marker of death to life.   Justification occurs at faith (baptism).  Sanctification is both the initial setting apart and the rest of the walk with Christ.


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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #27 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 08:18:00 »
Well said.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #28 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 09:04:39 »
Baptism is a submission of faith and is a marker of death to life.   
TC, while I agree baptism is a submission of faith, based on God's word, the rest of your statement needs scriptures to support what you are saying.
Quote from: Texas Conservative  Reply #26 on: Today at 08:05:46
Justification occurs at faith (baptism).
I what sense? The only sense this correct would be practical, certainly not legally, or vitally!
Quote
Luke 7:29~"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John."
Quote from: Texas Conservative  Reply #26 on: Today at 08:05:46
Sanctification is both the initial setting apart and the rest of the walk with Christ.
It is much more than what you are saying with that statement. I proved that above by the scriptures. You are welcome to provide scriptures supporting what you are saying~and we will consider them and test them with God's testimony.
Quote
Sanctification is both the initial setting apart and the rest of the walk with Christ.
The first occurs in the doctrine of election of grace before the foundation of the world.
Quote
2nd Thess. 2:13~"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
The second one you mentioned was covered under the practical sense of sanctification.
Quote from: RB
The practical phase is working out the holiness of the new man into a holy life without sin. Chosen to holiness, purchased as holy, and with a holy nature, we still have an old man. After spending eleven chapters describing grace, Paul exhorts to holiness (Romans 12:1-2). We sanctify ourselves to the Lord by choosing to be holy for the Lord (Leviticus 20:7). Paul exhorted the Thessalonians to do God’s will and sanctify themselves (Ist Thess 4:1-7). We are called to be holy, since God our Father is holy; this is our duty (Ist Pet 1:15-16). In light of the promises He has offered, we are to perfect holiness in His fear (2nd Corinthians 7:1). Christ’s blood (Hebrews 9:13-14) and God’s chastening (12:10-14) constrain us to holiness. Practical sanctification is man’s duty (Ist Pet 1:22; James 4:8; Ist John 3:2; Luke 22:32; Revelation 3:2).
« Last Edit: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 09:09:19 by RB »

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #29 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 09:07:36 »
These are all fundamentally inappropriate constructs created to align with a totally false soteriology.
with the word of God !

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #30 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 09:26:21 »
So then, RB, your view is that "These are all fundamentally inappropriate constructs created to align to align with the word of God"?  Surely not.  That is simply not possible.  But that does seem to be the basis for so much of the Calvin theology.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #31 on: Mon Aug 22, 2022 - 09:38:07 »
RB, I don't know why you quoted Luke 7:29; but that verse goes a long way to prove precisely what I said about the meaning of justification.

(KJV)  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

(ESV)  When all the people heard this, and the tax collectors too, they declared God just, having been baptized with the baptism of John,

(NASB)  When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God's justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John.


Justification is the declaration of righteousness.  When we are justified, we are declared righteous, i.e., we are, as was Abraham, credited as righteous when we believe.

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #32 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 04:09:31 »
So then, RB, your view is that "These are all fundamentally inappropriate constructs created to align to align with the word of God"?  Surely not.  That is simply not possible.  But that does seem to be the basis for so much of the Calvin theology.
If it is true of one as you said concerning Calvinism, it is just as easily true of Arminianism....and even more so!

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #33 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 04:57:23 »
RB, I don't know why you quoted Luke 7:29; but that verse goes a long way to prove precisely what I said about the meaning of justification.
4WD, glad you were following close enough to ask yourself that question, and I knew some would wonder ...why did RB quote Luke 7:29?

The reason why is this: The doctrine of Justification, and our believing is not the legal means of being justified in God's sight, it is only used in a practical sense in the scriptures just as it is in Luke 7:29! Much more on this later.
Quote from:  4WD on: Yesterday at 09:38:07
Justification is the declaration of righteousness. 
Agreed
Quote
When we are justified, we are declared righteous
Careful with your wording! It is not when we are, but when we were!  Legally, it happened before we were ever born!
Quote from: Paul a preacher of FREE justification by grace alone
Romans 4:25~"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."
Paul said we were justified at the resurrection of Jesus Christ, legally speaking in God's sight! I'll go with Paul.
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 09:38:07
we are declared righteous
Again, not ARE, but WERE declared righteousness legally speaking in the High Court of Heaven by God Himself! And the buck stops THERE! There's no higher than God is as you well know.
Quote from: 4WD on: Yesterday at 09:38:07
we are, as was Abraham, credited as righteous when we believe
4WD, this is true "ONLY" in our conscience and before men! Romans 5:1,2; James 2:23,24; etc. But, before the High Court of Heaven it was when Jesus died, (he cried out IT IS FINISHED) and was resurrected, per the testimony of God Himself. Otherwise, we could glory if we had the least amount of works included in our legal Justification before the High Court of Heaven.  Later more on this. 

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Re: What is the teaching on Justification and sanctification
« Reply #34 on: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 06:26:15 »
If justification means God has declared one righteous then where does sanctification fit in it is where baptism comes into play right?
Wrong~Baptism is commanded once a person show forth FRUITS of the indwelling Spirit of believing and repentance~just as Cornelius did in Acts 10.
Quote from: Peter
Acts 10:47~"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"
It is impossible to refute these words of Peter concerning which comes FIRST. Only folks who hold to a biased agenda would attempt to do so.

Next, we shall first consider the doctrine of Justification as brief as we can.
« Last Edit: Tue Aug 23, 2022 - 06:28:57 by RB »