Author Topic: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?  (Read 521 times)

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Offline dan p

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WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 17:16:12 »
 Hi to all and in Luke 16:1  we have a parable of the  unjust  steward !

 #1 This    STEWARD / OIKOMOMOS  and is in the  ACCUSATIVE  CASE  and means  that  this  STEWARD  is  LIMITED  to being a  STEWARD !

 #2. In  verse 2 the  Greek word is   STEWARDSHIP / OIKONOMIA  and this word  is the  GREEK  word  DISPENSATION  .

 #3 , In  verse 2 the  Greek word is again  STEWARD / OIKOMOMEO  in the Present  tense ,  and the  Present Tense means  a  CONTINUAL action of being a  STEWARD , which to me , is  speaking  about  ISRAEL !

#4 , In  verse 3 the  Greek word is AGAIN  STEWARDSHIP , OIKONOMIA ,which is the  word  DISPENSATION and in the  ACCUSATIVE  CASE  which means  LIMITED at his  job of being a  STEWARD !

 #5  In verse 4 we see the same   Greek  word  STEWARDSHIP / OIKONOMIA  or  DISPENSATION  and many  say DISPENSATION is a new theology , yet  found in the  GOSPELS !

 This means that  many Greek word have  more than one  meaning !

 So either Luke is  speaking to  Jews ?

 Or is it speaking to  Gentiles ?

I say it speaks of  Israel , so what say you ??

 dan p

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WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« on: Mon Jun 08, 2020 - 17:16:12 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 11, 2020 - 20:02:38 »
This means that  many Greek word have more than one meaning !
That's not quite right.

Greek is full of declensions which allow one to modify the form of a root word - giving it different gender or tense, changing it from a verb to a noun.  So for example you can turn faithful into faithful ones, or steward into stewardship, as in this example.  But you can never change the meaning of the root in Greek, and there are close to zero root words that have more than one base meaning.  The declensions actually serve to remove almost all ambiguity from Greek.

This is a huge contrast to Biblical Hebrew, where many/most root words have more than one meaning.  Hebrew also has declensions, but did not notate them in the original text.  This leaves Biblical Hebrew very open to interpretation.  The reader is left to decide a lot about how the words fit together.  In many cases, Biblical sentences can be translated in more than one way, and it truly appears that both/all of the interpretations are intended by the author, rather than just a single meaning.

Jarrod

Offline dan p

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #2 on: Fri Jun 12, 2020 - 19:13:57 »
 Hi , and what than is the  GREEK  word  DISPENSATION  doing in Luke 16:2,3,4, as it was only given to  Paul and then Paul gave it to US ?

 dan p

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #2 on: Fri Jun 12, 2020 - 19:13:57 »

Offline skeeter

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jun 12, 2020 - 21:55:44 »
Hi to all and in Luke 16:1  we have a parable of the  unjust  steward !

 #1 This    STEWARD / OIKOMOMOS  and is in the  ACCUSATIVE  CASE  and means  that  this  STEWARD  is  LIMITED  to being a  STEWARD !

 #2. In  verse 2 the  Greek word is   STEWARDSHIP / OIKONOMIA  and this word  is the  GREEK  word  DISPENSATION  .

 #3 , In  verse 2 the  Greek word is again  STEWARD / OIKOMOMEO  in the Present  tense ,  and the  Present Tense means  a  CONTINUAL action of being a  STEWARD , which to me , is  speaking  about  ISRAEL !

#4 , In  verse 3 the  Greek word is AGAIN  STEWARDSHIP , OIKONOMIA ,which is the  word  DISPENSATION and in the  ACCUSATIVE  CASE  which means  LIMITED at his  job of being a  STEWARD !

 #5  In verse 4 we see the same   Greek  word  STEWARDSHIP / OIKONOMIA  or  DISPENSATION  and many  say DISPENSATION is a new theology , yet  found in the  GOSPELS !

 This means that  many Greek word have  more than one  meaning !

 So either Luke is  speaking to  Jews ?

 Or is it speaking to  Gentiles ?

I say it speaks of  Israel , so what say you ??

 dan p
Who is speaking in Luke 16 ?

Jesus sent the 12 out to teach His message to the Jews.


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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jun 12, 2020 - 21:55:44 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 11:12:51 »
Hi , and what than is the  GREEK  word  DISPENSATION  doing in Luke 16:2,3,4, as it was only given to  Paul and then Paul gave it to US ?

 dan p
I struggle with your grammar.  I'm pretty sure you know this, but DISPENSATION is NOT a Greek word.  It's just regular English, to the contrary of your statement above.  Also, Paul didn't write the book of Luke, as seems to be intimated above.  Luke did that.   ::lookaround::  So I think the question you're trying to make is...

Why is the Greek word oikonomia translated as STEWARDSHIP in Luke's writings, but is differently translated as DISPENSATION in Paul's writings?

The answer is that the Greek word oikonomia has the same meaning across all the places it occurs in the New Testament, and the difference is simply down to the translators choosing different words for the same thing.  If you were to use the word STEWARDSHIP in Paul's letters, it makes perfect sense there.

Whatever difference you think you see in the English words is probably down to some pastor dumping a whole lot of extra ideas on the word DISPENSATION, which are not part of the original meaning of the word.

Jarrod

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 11:12:51 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 11:21:53 »
Jesus sent the 12 out to teach His message to the Jews.
Jesus sent His apostles to ALL the tribes of Israel, not just the Jews.

The word Jews can either refer to those from the tribe of Judah proper, or to those from the southern kingdom after the split in the nation (Judah, Benjamin, Simeon, and Levi).  In the Bible, it NEVER refers to the tribes of the northern part of the kingdom (Ephraim, Manasseh, Gad, Naphtali, Dan, Reuben, Asher, Issachar, and Zebulon).

Jarrod

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 11:21:53 »

Offline skeeter

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #6 on: Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 18:39:33 »
Jesus sent His apostles to ALL the tribes of Israel, not just the Jews.

The word Jews can either refer to those from the tribe of Judah proper, or to those from the southern kingdom after the split in the nation (Judah, Benjamin, Simeon, and Levi).  In the Bible, it NEVER refers to the tribes of the northern part of the kingdom (Ephraim, Manasseh, Gad, Naphtali, Dan, Reuben, Asher, Issachar, and Zebulon).

Jarrod
Matt 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Offline EYRose

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #7 on: Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 13:37:28 »
It is a common delusion that Jesus sent the disciples to the Jews but that is totally wrong. 
It was the Jews - Judahites - that hated and killed him and that hatred is still in them today to the extent one rabbi is seen saying 'I'd rather go up the chimneys of Auschwitz than accept Jesus is the son of GOD!'
Jesus actually sent his disciples to 'THE LOST SHEEP' aka the ten lost tribes that had occupied northern ISRAEL the land since the separation into Judah and Israel.
This happened after the tribes of Ephrain and Manasseh set up Jeroboam on the throne of the Israel the combined country.  The tribe of Judah split off to put Rehoboam on a throne of their own country Judah. Ephraim and Manasseh and the other eight tribes named their part Israel later renamed Samaria.
The Assyrians then captured Israel and transported the ten tribes to the area of the Caspian Sea.  They vanished from Bible record just as GOD said He was making them disappear because they kept on worshipping idols and even burning their babies to Satan's imaginary gods.
The Assyrians filled Israel with Babylonians and other devilworshipping pagans we call Chaldeans but which were renamed Gentiles or Samaritans like the woman Jesus spoke to at the well.
The Judahites were captured and sent down to Babylon.
Jesus started preaching but said to the woman who asked him to cure her daughter  but Jesus said unto her Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.'
He sent his discples to the lost sheep but not the Gentiles of Samaria: Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'
The Judahites had always killed the prophets GOD sent to them as they had assimilated so much Babylonian paganisms that they had been disowned by GOD.
Luke 19:19 seems to indcate that the lost sheep are merely the Judahites but Jesus was actually telling teh tax collector that because he believed Jesus was teh son of man he could also be counted as a genuine son of Abraham. 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.  10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. .
In summary:
Today's Jews are actually Judahite worshippers of Baal-Moloch under the star flag of Remphan.  All are doomed.
Todays Gentiles are Samaritan-Babylonians and equally doomed.
Today's Israel is really the trobes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Rueben, Simeon,Napthtali, Gad, Asher, Issacar and Zebulon, Dan.   These inhabit England and America with associated territories and former empires.


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #8 on: Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 18:22:21 »
Jesus actually sent his disciples to 'THE LOST SHEEP' aka the ten lost tribes that had occupied northern ISRAEL the land since the separation into Judah and Israel.

This happened after the tribes of Ephrain and Manasseh set up Jeroboam on the throne of the Israel the combined country.  The tribe of Judah split off to put Rehoboam on a throne of their own country Judah. Ephraim and Manasseh and the other eight tribes named their part Israel later renamed Samaria.
::thumbup::

The Assyrians then captured Israel and transported the ten tribes to the area of the Caspian Sea.
This isn't right.  I've heard this before, but it turns out its just a theory based on the similarity of the names Samaritan and Sarmatian.

The Assyrians slaughtered the Israelites.  The total number of captives they took was recorded on a cylinder by Sargon II commemorating the victory.  We still have that relic, and it says only 27,290 persons were taken from Samaria.  This is a historically verifiable fact.  The prophets in the Bible agree as well, calling Israel "no people" and "dry bones."

The Assyrians filled Israel with Babylonians and other devil-worshipping pagans we call Chaldeans but which were renamed Gentiles or Samaritans like the woman Jesus spoke to at the well.
The Assyrians settled a small group (less than 7000) of "criminals" who were "pardoned" there, as well as an unspecified number of captives from "southern Arabia."  According to the same cylinder.

Jesus started preaching but said to the woman who asked him to cure her daughter  but Jesus said unto her Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.'
He sent his discples to the lost sheep but not the Gentiles of Samaria: Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 26 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

Luke 19:19 seems to indcate that the lost sheep are merely the Judahites but Jesus was actually telling the tax collector that because he believed Jesus was the son of man he could also be counted as a genuine son of Abraham. 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.  10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
In apocalyptic literature, including parts of the Bible, each nation is represented by an animal.  The correlations are consistent across all the books.  "Sheep" are consistently Israelites.  "Dogs" are Canaanites.  "Wolves" are Egyptians.  And so on and so forth.  The audience would have known this.

As for determining who is a genuine son of Abraham, Jesus doctrine is explicit on this point - it should be determined by looking at BEHAVIOR, not genealogies.  If we are going to follow his teaching, the question of genealogical descent is pretty much a moot point at best, and a detraction from the truth at worst.

Today's Jews are actually Judahite worshippers of Baal-Moloch under the star flag of Remphan.  All are doomed.
While the flag of Israel does have star of Remphan, most of the "Jews" there are atheists and not worshipping anyone at all.

Todays Gentiles are Samaritan-Babylonians and equally doomed.
"Gentiles" just means "nations." It's literally everyone who isn't Jewish.  It isn't even a pejorative term in the prophets.  God promised to make Abraham a "father of nations," for instance.  That's the same thing as a "father of gentiles."  Same word (goyim).

Today's Israel is really the trobes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Rueben, Simeon,Napthtali, Gad, Asher, Issacar and Zebulon, Dan.   These inhabit England and America with associated territories and former empires.
Now you're way off in left field.  This teaching is known as British-Israelism, and was espoused by Herbert Armstrong (late of the cult known as Armstrong-ism), and believed by some other fringe groups, as the Jehovah's Witnesses.  It originated in England just a few centuries ago, the evidence for it is extremely scant, and there is no historical attestation for it at all.  Even the groups who used to hold to this have moved off the position considerably in light of the historical record of racism associated with the belief.  It really appears that somebody along the way decided that the "chosen nation" must ought to be white-and-go-to-our-church.  ::frown::

Jarrod
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 18:24:46 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #8 on: Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 18:22:21 »

Offline dan p

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #9 on: Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 18:31:04 »
Hi and is Eph 1:10 , with a view to the  oikomonia / dispenation of the  FULNESS OF  TIMES  to head up the   ALL THINGS /PANTA   " in Christ you say that the  Luke 16:2 where it reads , give an  account of thy  STEWARDSHIP / OIKONOMIA /DISPENSATION ?

How can these to passages be in AGREEMENT ?

 dan p

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #10 on: Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 20:23:07 »
Hi and is Eph 1:10 , with a view to the  oikomonia / dispenation of the  FULNESS OF  TIMES  to head up the   ALL THINGS /PANTA   " in Christ you say that the  Luke 16:2 where it reads , give an  account of thy  STEWARDSHIP / OIKONOMIA /DISPENSATION ?

How can these to passages be in AGREEMENT ?

 dan p
What doesn't make sense?  "Give an account of your stewardship" seems plain to me.  It is the question for every middle manager.  ::noworries::

Offline skeeter

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #11 on: Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 21:50:21 »
It is a common delusion that Jesus sent the disciples to the Jews but that is totally wrong. 
It was the Jews - Judahites - that hated and killed him and that hatred is still in them today to the extent one rabbi is seen saying 'I'd rather go up the chimneys of Auschwitz than accept Jesus is the son of GOD!'
Jesus actually sent his disciples to 'THE LOST SHEEP' aka the ten lost tribes that had occupied northern ISRAEL the land since the separation into Judah and Israel.
This happened after the tribes of Ephrain and Manasseh set up Jeroboam on the throne of the Israel the combined country.  The tribe of Judah split off to put Rehoboam on a throne of their own country Judah. Ephraim and Manasseh and the other eight tribes named their part Israel later renamed Samaria.
The Assyrians then captured Israel and transported the ten tribes to the area of the Caspian Sea.  They vanished from Bible record just as GOD said He was making them disappear because they kept on worshipping idols and even burning their babies to Satan's imaginary gods.
The Assyrians filled Israel with Babylonians and other devilworshipping pagans we call Chaldeans but which were renamed Gentiles or Samaritans like the woman Jesus spoke to at the well.
The Judahites were captured and sent down to Babylon.
Jesus started preaching but said to the woman who asked him to cure her daughter  but Jesus said unto her Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.'
He sent his discples to the lost sheep but not the Gentiles of Samaria: Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'
The Judahites had always killed the prophets GOD sent to them as they had assimilated so much Babylonian paganisms that they had been disowned by GOD.
Luke 19:19 seems to indcate that the lost sheep are merely the Judahites but Jesus was actually telling teh tax collector that because he believed Jesus was teh son of man he could also be counted as a genuine son of Abraham. 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.  10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. .
In summary:
Today's Jews are actually Judahite worshippers of Baal-Moloch under the star flag of Remphan.  All are doomed.
Todays Gentiles are Samaritan-Babylonians and equally doomed.
Today's Israel is really the trobes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Rueben, Simeon,Napthtali, Gad, Asher, Issacar and Zebulon, Dan.   These inhabit England and America with associated territories and former empires.
so the lost sheep of Israel weren't Jews?



Offline EYRose

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #12 on: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 03:28:05 »
No.  Jews are Judahites of the southern half of the former united kingdom of the promised Land aka Israel the land.

The true Israelites are those that carry the birthright handed to them by Isaac-Israel on his death.   Genesis 48:16-19.

1 Kings 11 shows Judah and Israel were separate nations.  2 Kings 23:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 And the Lord said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there.'

Israel has been sent into exile beyond the Euphrates and up into Syria.   

Judah was captured and taken into exile in Babylon where they learned occult and false gods.

Nehemiah 7:6 tells that the inhabitants of Judah were the returners from exile in Babylon and they only resettled in former lands of Judah - not the northern half called Samaria.

Ehraim became many nations and Manasseh a great nation.   No Jews have ever had either.

And like I said, all Jews deny Jesus and it was Jews who killed him.

« Last Edit: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 04:42:23 by EYRose »

Offline dan p

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #13 on: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 13:48:31 »
 Hi and the  Greek word  OIKOS means House  and  NOMOS  means  LAW !

 The  Translators of  LUKE 16:2,3,4  translated  OIKONOMIA ,  as   STEWARSHIP .

 Eph 1:2 and 3  are  way different than  Luke 16:2,3,4,!!

 dan p

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #14 on: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 19:02:36 »
It is a common delusion that Jesus sent the disciples to the Jews but that is totally wrong. 
It was the Jews - Judahites - that hated and killed him and that hatred is still in them today to the extent one rabbi is seen saying 'I'd rather go up the chimneys of Auschwitz than accept Jesus is the son of GOD!'
so all of these years I've been taught a delusion... that the apostles were Jews.  what religion are you?

Quote
Today's Jews are actually Judahite worshippers of Baal-Moloch under the star flag of Remphan.  All are doomed.
Todays Gentiles are Samaritan-Babylonians and equally doomed.
Today's Israel is really the trobes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Rueben, Simeon,Napthtali, Gad, Asher, Issacar and Zebulon, Dan.   These inhabit England and America with associated territories and former empires.
I'm not a Jew, a Judahite or a Samarian Babylonian.  so what am I?



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #15 on: Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 23:24:52 »
so all of these years I've been taught a delusion... that the apostles were Jews.  what religion are you?
EYRose won't be responding.  I've banned him because of racism.

The Bible doesn't really say what tribe the apostles belonged to, as far as I can recall.  Paul self-identifies as a Benjamite.  The other apostles were mostly from the Galilee, which was historically NOT Jewish, but encompasses the area given to the tribes of Naphtali and Zebulon, part of the northern kingdom.

I'm not a Jew, a Judahite or a Samarian Babylonian.  so what am I?
An adopted son.  God promised Abraham that he would be a "father of nations" and the word nations is the same as gentiles in Hebrew.

Jarrod

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jun 24, 2020 - 19:48:24 »
so the lost sheep of Israel weren't Jews?
Correct.

They were descendants of the 10-tribe northern kingdom that was destroyed by Assyria in the 8th century BC.  "Israel"

They were NOT descendants of the 3-tribe southern kingdom that was taken into captivity by the Babylonians at the beginning of the 6th century.  Not "Judah."

There is some amount of overlap, as some of those who were "lost Israel" had been absorbed into Judah and were (incorrectly) thought to be Jews.

Jarrod

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #17 on: Wed Jun 24, 2020 - 22:31:47 »
Correct.

They were descendants of the 10-tribe northern kingdom that was destroyed by Assyria in the 8th century BC.  "Israel"

They were NOT descendants of the 3-tribe southern kingdom that was taken into captivity by the Babylonians at the beginning of the 6th century.  Not "Judah."

There is some amount of overlap, as some of those who were "lost Israel" had been absorbed into Judah and were (incorrectly) thought to be Jews.

Jarrod
are you a Jew?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #18 on: Thu Jun 25, 2020 - 12:40:14 »
are you a Jew?
No.  But I'm curious why you're asking... would it matter somehow?

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #19 on: Thu Jun 25, 2020 - 14:26:15 »
No.  But I'm curious why you're asking... would it matter somehow?
it could - to your source of info.


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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #20 on: Fri Jun 26, 2020 - 07:40:29 »
Quote
It is a common delusion that Jesus sent the disciples to the Jews but that is totally wrong. 
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

Matthew 15:24  But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

In common usage in the first century, all of the "house of Israel" were called Jews regardless of what tribe they descended from.
So yes, Our Lord was sent ONLY to Jews, and he originally sent the disciples ONLY to Jews.  That was changed in Acts 1.

Offline skeeter

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Jun 26, 2020 - 11:42:10 »
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

Matthew 15:24  But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

In common usage in the first century, all of the "house of Israel" were called Jews regardless of what tribe they descended from.
So yes, Our Lord was sent ONLY to Jews, and he originally sent the disciples ONLY to Jews. 
That was changed in Acts 1.
where does it change in Acts 1 ?

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #22 on: Fri Jun 26, 2020 - 11:46:11 »
where does it change in Acts 1 ?

Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Jun 26, 2020 - 13:26:54 »
it could - to your source of info.
I'm acquainted with Jewish history, but certainly no expert.  On this point I think I'm disagreeing with the orthodox position.  I believe tradition holds that remnants of all the tribes were restored when the Jews were returned from captivity in Persia. 

The New Testament disagrees, referring to the "lost house" as something still yet-to-be-restored in their day, not already-restored.  I'm inclined to believe the NT here over Jewish tradition.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Jun 26, 2020 - 13:29:38 »
Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”
That verse says where, not who.  If I come to it with the assumption that He is sending them to gather His people OUT of the nations, I get a different conclusion from it.

Jarrod

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jun 26, 2020 - 23:52:33 »
Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”
where does it redirect the 12 to the Gentiles?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #26 on: Sun Jun 28, 2020 - 23:40:51 »
where does it redirect the 12 to the Gentiles?
The 12 are sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" and that is with the idea that they are already "lost" among the Gentiles.  They are sent AMONG the Gentiles for the purpose of calling the lost sheep OUT of the Gentiles.  Clear as mud?  ::rolling::

Offline DaveW

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #27 on: Mon Jun 29, 2020 - 04:57:43 »
That verse says where, not who.  If I come to it with the assumption that He is sending them to gather His people OUT of the nations, I get a different conclusion from it.
OK, fair enough.  the Risen Lord also told them this:

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #28 on: Tue Jun 30, 2020 - 18:07:45 »
Hi and what  does Matt 28:19 , TEACH  ALL  NATIONS where  , where  NATIONS / ETHNOS  can translated  GENTILE , RACE ,  HEATHEN , and also be  Translated  JEWISH  NATION !

See  John 11:48 , 50 and  51  !!

 And  NATIONS / ETHNOS  in  Matt 28:19 is in the  ACCUSATIVE  CASE , why is THAT ?

 dan p
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 30, 2020 - 18:32:47 by dan p »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #29 on: Tue Jun 30, 2020 - 19:52:20 »
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
If they make them disciples and baptize them, are they still Gentiles?  I hold that baptism is an adoption ceremony, so I would say no.

Jarrod

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #30 on: Tue Jun 30, 2020 - 20:36:35 »
They would be gentile believers like we are. We have been grafted in as wild branches to God’s olive tree vs the natural branches.
« Last Edit: Tue Jun 30, 2020 - 21:23:10 by Jaime »

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #31 on: Wed Jul 01, 2020 - 06:21:46 »
If they make them disciples and baptize them, are they still Gentiles?  I hold that baptism is an adoption ceremony, so I would say no.
Yes still gentiles.

Formal conversion to Judaism was declared unnecessary and counter productive in Acts 15.  Formal conversion requires adherence to the Law of Moses even in the New Covenant.

Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

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Re: WHAT LUKE 16:2,3,4, is saying ?
« Reply #32 on: Wed Jul 01, 2020 - 12:23:48 »
Yes still gentiles.

Formal conversion to Judaism was declared unnecessary and counter productive in Acts 15.  Formal conversion requires adherence to the Law of Moses even in the New Covenant.

Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Well there's the thing.... it isn't a conversion to Judaism.  The adoption is a re-birth of Israel, not a conversion to Judah.

As far as the law goes, Judah was disciplined and remained under the law.  But Israel... Israel was divorced and put to death.  The law is of no effect post-mortum.  The people who are adopted, re-constituting a resurrected Israel have no obligation to the law.  Israel has literally died to the law, rendering it of no further effect.

But they aren't quite Gentiles, are they?  They are Abraham's children, subject to God after the same fashion as Abraham.  If they believe God, He will credit it to them as righteousness.

Jarrod

 

     
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