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Offline OkiMar

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When were OT people saved?
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2004, 08:51:24 PM »
I think the people who died faithfully during the old covenants were in a saved state, but much was dependant on God's foreknowledge and divine providence.  Christ's sacrifice was still necessary.  No one, from Adam to us today, can be saved without the blood of Christ.  Had He not died, they would not be saved.  No sin, throughout the course of history, has ever been forgiven without the atonement of Christ. Heb 9, Rom 3,
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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2004, 08:51:24 PM »

Offline Johnb

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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2004, 02:52:28 PM »
Oki
Amen.  Johnb
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2004, 02:52:28 PM »

Offline Dennis

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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2004, 03:08:13 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]No sin, throughout the course of history, has ever been forgiven without the atonement of Christ. Heb 9, Rom 3,[/quote]
Explain your statements in light of Lev 4:20 [and other similar passages]. All of this appears to me to say plainly that sin was forgiven at that time, not hundreds of years later when Christ died.
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2004, 03:08:13 PM »

Offline OkiMar

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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2004, 08:34:58 PM »
Dennis,
I believe that the sins committed under the Old Covenant were forgiven on a promissory basis.  The forgiveness of the OT was a 'type' of the ultimate forgiveness found in Christ.  

Animal sacrifices could not remove sin:
Heb 10:1-4 \"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.  
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.  
But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.\"

The sins of the Old Covenant were remembered and passed over until the Cross.  If sins were forgiven in the ultimate sense, then Christ died in vain:
Gal 2:21 \"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.\"

Christ's death was for the benefit of all:
Gal 4:4-5 \"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,  
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.\"
John 1:29 \"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.\"

If people were forgiven of all their sins without the atonement of Christ, why did He die?  What was the purpose?  I believe Christ died because their forgiveness was provisional or on a promissory basis.  It can be said that they were forgiven (Lev 4:20, etc) because of God's foreknowledge and divine providence.  God knew that Christ would die for us all.
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2004, 08:34:58 PM »

Offline marc

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When were OT people saved?
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2004, 08:39:52 PM »
I agree.  And I think it's helpful to remember that God Lives (or exists, as we normally put it) outside of time.
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2004, 08:39:52 PM »


Offline Dennis

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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2004, 01:31:42 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I agree.  And I think it's helpful to remember that God Lives (or exists, as we normally put it) outside of time.[/quote]
Oki and Marc,

You support your argument by contending that the forgiveness discussed in Leviticus was conditional.  I am not aware if any scriptural authority to support that conclusion, and the language of the scripture does not in my view support it.  I don't think the references in Hebrews contradict present forgiveness under the old law either. The writer of Hebrews says that sacrifices under the law were weak by comparison [not powerless] in that they brought the fact of sin before the people year after year.  

But lets put that aside for the moment and refer to 2 Sam 12:13.  After David confesses his sin with Bathsheba, Nathan tells him that the Lord has [past tense] taken away his sin [NIV other translations say put away], even before any sacrifice is made.  How does that fit?
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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2004, 01:31:42 PM »

Offline s1n4m1n

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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2004, 02:05:41 PM »
Dennis,

I can't remember if a sacrifice was required for each particular sin a person committed. David was guilty of adultery and murder. Does anyone remember where (Leviticus, Deut.) its spelled out if one commits adultery they have to make a sacrifice to be forgiven? I do know that if a man and woman were caught in adultery they were supposed to be stoned.

Ken
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Offline marc

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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2004, 07:47:43 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]But lets put that aside for the moment and refer to 2 Sam 12:13.  After David confesses his sin with Bathsheba, Nathan tells him that the Lord has [past tense] taken away his sin [NIV other translations say put away], even before any sacrifice is made.  How does that fit?[/quote]
I'm not sure I get it.  To me, this would seem to support what I said about God not being bound by time. ???

Reading over Okimar's post, however, I may have misunderstood part of what he said.  I was taking the post at the top of this page as a capusle of what He was saying, and I agree with this post entirely.  The only quibble I might have is with the phrase \"passed over\" in the later post.  I do believe that people's sins were actually forgiven during their lifetime, I just believe that this was done based on Jesus' death on the cross.  Even though this had not happened yet in linear time, to God it had already occured.

Does this clear things up, or does it further muddy the waters?
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Offline Skip

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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2004, 07:45:31 AM »
Dennis,

Ironically, David's sin is one of the two examples that Paul uses in Romans 3 and 4 to show that Christ died for all sins for all time.

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
...and continuing in Romans 4:6-8...
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 \"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
          AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8 \"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.\"

The simple and short of it is that God's promise is as good as the actual event.
Therefore God, who knew that Jesus Christ would take away all sins, could forbear and forgive sins before Christ (Romans 3:25).

And re-read Romans 3:22-24 - who and when is excluded by \"all\"?

No one and no time is/are excluded - the same promise and gift are to all, before and after Christ.
Which is why Paul can claim that Abraham is our father in faith in Jesus Christ - Abraham believed in, and is justified by \"Christ future\" just as surely as we today believe in, and are justified by \"Christ past\".

After all, if God is not constrained by time in forgiving our sins 2000 years after Christ's atonement, why would God be constrained by time in forgiving sin 2000 years before Christ's atonement (remembering again that God's promise is as good as the actual accomplished act)?
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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2004, 07:45:31 AM »

Offline Dennis

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« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2004, 02:26:44 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ April 13 2004,8:47)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
Marc noted:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I do believe that people's sins were actually forgiven during their lifetime . . . [/quote]

So do I.  That is really my only point.  Maybe the best way to say it is that they were not forgiven in the same way to the extent that the sacrifices of the old covenant were for specific purpose and time periods and could not fulfill the \"once for all\" as does the sacrifice of Jesus.  The old covenant sacrifices had to be repeated year after year.  

Oki asks the question above why Jesus had to die, and I think that is explained by Hebrews 9-10.  I certainly am not trying to diminish the importance of Jesus sacrifice.

I think a question we should also consider in light of these passages in Hebrews is why the old covenant?  Why did God not go straight to the Jesus?  Why did we have the go through 2000+ years of the old covenant to get to the new?
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« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2004, 02:26:44 PM »

boringoldguy

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When were OT people saved?
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2004, 03:01:15 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Dennis @ April 15 2004,3:26)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
Marc noted:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I do believe that people's sins were actually forgiven during their lifetime . . . [/quote]

So do I.  That is really my only point.  Maybe the best way to say it is that they were not forgiven in the same way to the extent that the sacrifices of the old covenant were for specific purpose and time periods and could not fulfill the \"once for all\" as does the sacrifice of Jesus.  The old covenant sacrifices had to be repeated year after year.  

Oki asks the question above why Jesus had to die, and I think that is explained by Hebrews 9-10.  I certainly am not trying to diminish the importance of Jesus sacrifice.

I think a question we should also consider in light of these passages in Hebrews is why the old covenant?  Why did God not go straight to the Jesus?  Why did we have the go through 2000+ years of the old covenant to get to the new?[/quote]
I once heard the Old Testament forgiveness described as being like letting your kid borrow your credit card.

They can use it to buy an item, and when they present the credit card, the item is paid for and belongs to them.  The seller can't come back and reclaim the item.  But at some point, you still have to pay your credit card bill.

In a similar way, once the sacrifices were made, the ancient Israeilite's sins were forgiven (not just rolled forward.)    But the debt remained, and Christ had to pay it.

The real issue with the Israelite was that his future sins were not forgiven;   the sacrifices took care of sins he had done in the past in the way I described above.    But they didn't take care of sins that would be committed in the future.   The Israelite had to continue offering those sacrifices.   Nowadays, all of our sins are forgiven, even the ones we haven't yet thought about committing, as long as we remain in our relationship and don't abandon Christ.
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edpobre

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When were OT people saved?
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2004, 03:59:47 PM »
The Old Testament teaches that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob whom God named Israel, were the only people with whom God made an everlasting covenant. God gave them commandments, rules, and ordinances to obey and as long as they obeyed, everything went well with them. God appointed high priests to offer sacrifices for the forgiveness of their sins.

Nadab and Abihu were killed by God for DISOBEDIENCE (Lev. 10:1-2). God killed Uzza also for DISOBEDIENCE (1 Sam. 6:6-7) because he transgressed the law (Num. 4:15).

Apostle John writes in his vision that 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel have been sealed (Rev. 7:4) and are with the Lamb (Rev. 14:1). This means that  144,000 Israelites who DIED before Jesus was even born will be SAVED.

Personally, I believe that the issue whether the Isaelites were saved before or at Christ's death is moot and academic. If Christ had NOT died, NOBODY would be saved because the Old Testament is the shadow of things to come.

Ed
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edpobre

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« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2004, 04:33:57 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (boringoldguy @ April 15 2004,4:01)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nowadays, all of our sins are forgiven, even the ones we haven't yet thought about committing, as long as we remain in our relationship and don't abandon Christ.[/quote]

BOG,

Please show scripture to support your belief that \"all sins are forgiven, even the ones we haven't yet thought of committing, so long as we remain in our relationship and don't abandon Christ.\"

How does one \"remain in our relationship\" and how does one \"not abandon Christ?\" How does one get into a \"relationship\" or \"union\" with Christ?

Ed
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Offline Lee Freeman

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When were OT people saved?
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2004, 08:57:10 AM »
John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but receive eternal life.

Acts 2:38: Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus of Nazareth for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:1: Now therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Pax vobiscum.
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"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)

boringoldguy

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« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2004, 12:28:00 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (edpobre @ April 28 2004,5:33)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nowadays, all of our sins are forgiven, even the ones we haven't yet thought about committing, as long as we remain in our relationship and don't abandon Christ.[/quote]

BOG,

Please show scripture to support your belief that \"all sins are forgiven, even the ones we haven't yet thought of committing, so long as we remain in our relationship and don't abandon Christ.\"

How does one \"remain in our relationship\" and how does one \"not abandon Christ?\" How does one get into a \"relationship\" or \"union\" with Christ?

Ed[/quote]
Ed,

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to discuss anything with you.
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