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Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 12:31:11 PM

Many threads about grace have been started and having look through them, I have not found one yet that proves salvation is by 'grace alone'.  (A book some person wrote does not prove it, sorry)

Here is a thread where those who believe salvation is by grace alone can post that mysterious, elusive verse.  The only qualifier I have is that any verse(s) posted must already have the word "only" or "alone" in it, that is, either word cannot be added to or assumed into the verse.  If people could add to or assume ideas into the bible then everyone, anyone can make the bible say whatever they desire for it to say.

"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Gomer,

It goes without saying that no one will fulfill your request, because they can't show any verse that will say that. However, I would like to say that everything about salvation hinges upon the grace of God. The entire scope of salvation which is offered to us through the "good news" is all put into motion by God's grace. Our faith is centered on the death of Jesus and His resurrection through the power of God, and everything that means to us...but that was because God put His grace into action. Without such grace or the good news about it, there wouldn't be any inspiration to lead us to conviction or create faith in our hearts, nor give us hope. Repentance...simply put...it also is by God's good grace that He allows us to repent, especially since all of us are guilty and the penalty for sin is death. Confession...a requirement of Christ is still connected to grace because it was God our Father who taught us of eternal life through Jesus, so when we publicly acknowledge our faith in Christ it is by God's grace that He has moved us in such a way as to make us want to confess Jesus as Lord. Baptism, at least by my belief, is an extension of that confession of faith...so it too can be said to have its roots connected to God's grace.

I know that God's grace is what sets everything into motion, and that is entirely God's doing, but the response that we have is a working of the Holy Spirit in us. Read Isaiah 55:11 -

Isaiah 55:11 (ESV)
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

The word is the sword of the Spirit, and it is that Spirit that is working in us through the gospel when we become believers. So even the work of God through His Spirit is actually an extension of His grace as well.

I'll await to be flamed on both sides (that's if anyone bothers to read this), but this is the way I see it.

I'm happy for God's grace...it means everything to me!

Yes, if there were no grace then salvation would not be possible at all.  Grace can be viewed as a pathway God made for man to heaven.  God did not have to provide that pathway but He did, but it is still up  to man to go and walk up that path.

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 05:11:13 PM

Quote from: LightHammer on February 20, 2012, 05:04:25 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 03:27:35 PM

Quote from: LightHammer on February 20, 2012, 01:20:12 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 01:12:05 PM

Quote from: LightHammer on February 20, 2012, 01:05:41 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 01:00:41 PM

Quote from: LightHammer on February 20, 2012, 12:53:10 PM

Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone.  

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.

I understand what you are saying but grace and grace alone are not the same thing as you are talking about.  Either salvation is by grace by itself (grace alone) or it is by grace plus something else.

I think this can be interesting.

If you would humor me I would like for you to define what "grace" means to you.

it means favor, when referring to God's grace it is unmerited favor

Is that what you think? Are you sure?

I mean I'm not raising complaints with that definition because that's not what this thread is about but if that's really what you think then how do you raise an issue with Grace Alone?

Salvation is communion with God in yet you think you need more than God's favour to be in communion with Him? What else but the favour of God does one need to remain in communion with Him if you don't mind sharing.

 

God's "favor" has appeared to all men, Tts 2:11 yet all men will not be saved.  Why will some receive "favor" while others do not?

God's "favor" is conditional, thsoe that love God, Jn 14:15, by obeying His commandments receive God's favor.  Can I have 'communion' with God while not loving Him, that is, while not keeping His commandments?

Sticking to your definition of of grace, wouldn't that be a bit circular? By your logic God shows favor to those who love Him but ultimately the love of God returns with God's favor. Ultimately its still the favor of God that saves.

Also is love simply in doing what God says? I do what my miltary commanders say but do I love them in he same way I love God? Employees do what their bosses say and students do what their instructors say but is that what God emant when He said love is keeping My commandments?

I can create a machine without a heart or thought and have it completely obey my every directive. Is that love?

Sorry I think I was drifting a bit but consider Mother Mary she was considered highly favored among women before she even gave birth to the Messiah. If God's favor is proportional to our doing what He says, what exactly did Mother Mary do that made her "highly" favoured among women? She was not the only virgin in her time and she wasn't known for any extraordinary acts in yet she is seen with more favour than most before having done anything.

I still think that even in your theology God's favor (which you equate to grace) is what ultimately saves, the love of God is simply how a person gets God's grace in your school of thought.

Appreciating the conversation.

Jesus said if ye love Me keep My commandments, Jn 14:15.  Just saying the words "I love Jesus" is not what Jesus said to do to show love to Him.  Military personnel and bosses have nothing to do with Jn 14:15.  Any favor Mary received was not the same as favor that comes from God.  Mary was still in need of a Saviour/God's grace, Lk 1:47.

Quote from: Gomer on February 21, 2012, 07:42:44 AM

Quote from: p.rehbein on February 21, 2012, 06:59:40 AM

Exodus 34:6)  And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 .) Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Nehemiah 9:17)  And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
Psalm 78:38) But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.

Psalm 84:11) For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Psalm 103:9) He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10 .) He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Psalm 145:8) The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 .) The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Isaiah 5:25)  Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still…….......……9:21)       Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.………10:4) Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

John 1:16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 1:5) By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

2nd Corinthians 6:1) We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Ephesians 1:7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 .) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

  , praise Him, praise Him, Jesus our Blessed Redeemer, praise Him, praise Him, Jesus the Crucified..................

 

Psalm 84:11) For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

So receiving grace is conditional upon walking uprightly.

Some where along the way you have forgotten you only walk uprightly in Christ Jesus....you yourself, on your own apart from being IN CHRIST cannot walk uprightly.

In other words this verse applies to all Christian Believers who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior

 

It takes obedience in submitting to baptism to be in Christ, Gal 3:27.  But the part you overlook in the verse is that walking uprightly on your part is a conditon you must meet in order to receive grace. You first obey then you receive grace not the other way around.  One first obeys in submitting to baptism, then He is placed in Christ where saving grace is found, 2 Tim 2:1.

Quote from: segell on February 21, 2012, 10:10:14 AM

Quote from: Gomer on February 21, 2012, 07:48:45 AM

Quote from: segell on February 21, 2012, 06:00:32 AM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 05:05:42 PM

Quote from: segell on February 20, 2012, 04:59:38 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 12:58:31 PM

Quote from: segell on February 20, 2012, 12:48:54 PM

Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?

You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.

 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

i just wonder what that maintenance plan looks like. 

Rev 2:10 "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. "

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"


It looks like being faithful and keeping Christ's works unto death, unto the end.

In who's strength?

Quote from: Gomer on February 21, 2012, 10:46:44 AM

Quote from: segell on February 21, 2012, 10:10:14 AM

Quote from: Gomer on February 21, 2012, 07:48:45 AM

Quote from: segell on February 21, 2012, 06:00:32 AM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 05:05:42 PM

Quote from: segell on February 20, 2012, 04:59:38 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 12:58:31 PM

Quote from: segell on February 20, 2012, 12:48:54 PM

Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?

You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.

 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

i just wonder what that maintenance plan looks like. 

Rev 2:10 "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. "

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"


It looks like being faithful and keeping Christ's works unto death, unto the end.

In who's strength?

With your strength together with the help and comfort of the Holy Spirit.  God is not going to do that for you.  You might wish that were so on some occasions, but it is not.

Quote from: Alfred Combes on February 21, 2012, 11:27:35 AM

Why do so many posters have such enmity against baptism.

Because it flies in the face of faith alone and there are a lot of faith alones here at the forum.

I don't know anyone who has "enmity against baptism".  But I know there are some who who disagree about the purpose of baptism.  But I don't know any who have enmity against what the Bible presents as baptism.  Differences yes.  Enmity no.

Quote from: segell on February 21, 2012, 11:24:17 AM

Quote from: Gomer on February 21, 2012, 10:46:44 AM

Quote from: segell on February 21, 2012, 10:10:14 AM

Quote from: Gomer on February 21, 2012, 07:48:45 AM

Quote from: segell on February 21, 2012, 06:00:32 AM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 05:05:42 PM

Quote from: segell on February 20, 2012, 04:59:38 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 12:58:31 PM

Quote from: segell on February 20, 2012, 12:48:54 PM

Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?

You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.

 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

i just wonder what that maintenance plan looks like.  

Rev 2:10 "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. "

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"


It looks like being faithful and keeping Christ's works unto death, unto the end.

In who's strength?

With your strength together with the help and comfort of the Holy Spirit.  God is not going to do that for you.  You might wish that were so on some occasions, but it is not.

Then what is the purpose of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?  Ezekiel 36:24-27 would disagree with you as well as other passages going to the ministry of the Holy Spirit.  I don't know what you base your pronouncement on, Jimmy, but I don't find it in the Scriptures.  The Scriptures teach that our strength comes from the Lord.  Without Him we can do nothing.  That's more than comfort in your own strength.  Talk about minimalizing the power, strength and work of God's Spirit.

Why do so many posters have such enmity against baptism.

Enmity is the wrong word

Actually we are adverse to you guys abusing it....taking Glory from the Holy Spirit for the act of God in renewing our hearts giving us new life in Christ
and giving that glory to an act of man

Because the event, True Baptism whereby we are immersed into the Body of Jesus occurs in our hearts not in a body of water

It is the unseen work and ministry of the Holy Spirit, the pricking, cutting and circumcision of our hearts that brings us into fellowship with God and does not rely or hinge upon being immersed in water

The preponderance of scripture making this plain and evident is overwhelming

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10

Believing on the Lord Jesus in one's heart RESULTS in RIGHTEOUSNESS!

BELIEF IN JESUS AS ONE'S LORD AND SAVIOR HAS A DIRECT RESULT

Confessing the Lord Jesus as one's Lord and Savior RESULTS in SALVATION!

THEREFORE

If one does not first have true belief in the Lord Jesus as Savior, IN ONES HEART and is baptized anyway one has not been immersed in a way that matters to God

No matter how many times one has been dipped

And if you'd be honest some people are baptized repeatedly throughout their lives in the false belief that Water Baptism saves or that Jesus saves through it

Jesus saves through what we believe about Him

Water baptism only symbolizes it

That's for us, our benefit, something we can see to represent what we cannot

God on the other hand knows the heart..Baptism or not

The same way Jesus knew the heart of the thief and the heart of Zaccheaus

They both were immersed into the Body of Christ...not water