Christian Forums and Message Board

Quote from: Jimmy on February 21, 2012, 11:32:13 AM

Quote from: segell on February 21, 2012, 11:24:17 AM

Quote from: Gomer on February 21, 2012, 10:46:44 AM

Quote from: segell on February 21, 2012, 10:10:14 AM

Quote from: Gomer on February 21, 2012, 07:48:45 AM

Quote from: segell on February 21, 2012, 06:00:32 AM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 05:05:42 PM

Quote from: segell on February 20, 2012, 04:59:38 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 12:58:31 PM

Quote from: segell on February 20, 2012, 12:48:54 PM

Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?

You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.

 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

i just wonder what that maintenance plan looks like.  

Rev 2:10 "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. "

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"


It looks like being faithful and keeping Christ's works unto death, unto the end.

In who's strength?

With your strength together with the help and comfort of the Holy Spirit.  God is not going to do that for you.  You might wish that were so on some occasions, but it is not.

Then what is the purpose of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?  Ezekiel 36:24-27 would disagree with you as well as other passages going to the ministry of the Holy Spirit.  I don't know what you base your pronouncement on, Jimmy, but I don't find it in the Scriptures.  The Scriptures teach that our strength comes from the Lord.  Without Him we can do nothing.  That's more than comfort in your own strength.  Talk about minimalizing the power, strength and work of God's Spirit.

In a nutshell, the purpose of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is sanctification. And the bulk of the NT writings following the gospels and Acts is mostly about sanctification.   But given what you seem to believe about this, the whole concept of sanctification is pretty much moot.

If you would like to discuss that we certainly could, but it would probably be best to start a new topic on sanctification specifically.

Quote from: LightHammer on February 20, 2012, 05:41:15 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 05:11:13 PM

Quote from: LightHammer on February 20, 2012, 05:04:25 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 03:27:35 PM

Quote from: LightHammer on February 20, 2012, 01:20:12 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 01:12:05 PM

Quote from: LightHammer on February 20, 2012, 01:05:41 PM

Quote from: Gomer on February 20, 2012, 01:00:41 PM

Quote from: LightHammer on February 20, 2012, 12:53:10 PM

Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone.  

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.

I understand what you are saying but grace and grace alone are not the same thing as you are talking about.  Either salvation is by grace by itself (grace alone) or it is by grace plus something else.

I think this can be interesting.

If you would humor me I would like for you to define what "grace" means to you.

it means favor, when referring to God's grace it is unmerited favor

Is that what you think? Are you sure?

I mean I'm not raising complaints with that definition because that's not what this thread is about but if that's really what you think then how do you raise an issue with Grace Alone?

Salvation is communion with God in yet you think you need more than God's favour to be in communion with Him? What else but the favour of God does one need to remain in communion with Him if you don't mind sharing.

 

God's "favor" has appeared to all men, Tts 2:11 yet all men will not be saved.  Why will some receive "favor" while others do not?

God's "favor" is conditional, thsoe that love God, Jn 14:15, by obeying His commandments receive God's favor.  Can I have 'communion' with God while not loving Him, that is, while not keeping His commandments?

Sticking to your definition of of grace, wouldn't that be a bit circular? By your logic God shows favor to those who love Him but ultimately the love of God returns with God's favor. Ultimately its still the favor of God that saves.

Also is love simply in doing what God says? I do what my miltary commanders say but do I love them in he same way I love God? Employees do what their bosses say and students do what their instructors say but is that what God emant when He said love is keeping My commandments?

I can create a machine without a heart or thought and have it completely obey my every directive. Is that love?

Sorry I think I was drifting a bit but consider Mother Mary she was considered highly favored among women before she even gave birth to the Messiah. If God's favor is proportional to our doing what He says, what exactly did Mother Mary do that made her "highly" favoured among women? She was not the only virgin in her time and she wasn't known for any extraordinary acts in yet she is seen with more favour than most before having done anything.

I still think that even in your theology God's favor (which you equate to grace) is what ultimately saves, the love of God is simply how a person gets God's grace in your school of thought.

Appreciating the conversation.

Jesus said if ye love Me keep My commandments, Jn 14:15.  Just saying the words "I love Jesus" is not what Jesus said to do to show love to Him.  Military personnel and bosses have nothing to do with Jn 14:15.  Any favor Mary received was not the same as favor that comes from God.  Mary was still in need of a Saviour/God's grace, Lk 1:47.

This seemed a bit shallow.

1. You attempted to take Christ words at face value and said that love is simply doing the commandments, as if God was saying that love is being an obedient droid. The obedience of military personnel and civilian employees most certainly apply to your interpretation of what love is. They are infact twins by your standards of love. I disagree with that standard however.

For one Christ said "if you love you will keep my commandments" meaning the people who already hold love for God do these things not that these things themselves are love. Keeping the commandments are expressions of the love of God not the love of God itself.

This is made especially evident by the most important commandment which is to love God and our neighbors greater than ourselves. If love is keeping the commandments and the commandments say to love God that would be a bit circular.

Clearly the love of God is much greater than the feeble expressions man gives Him in keeping His commandments.

With that in mind I think your definition of love is a bit sketchy.

2. The favour Mary from God was different from the favour God gave to those He saved?  So now there are two kinds of favor when it comes to God or are there more?

Quote from: gospel on February 21, 2012, 12:31:43 PM

The Holy Spirit does His Sanctification work and ministry by the Power of the Word For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


This is why Faith comes by hearing the Word ( see Romans 10:17 ) see above scriptures

This is why Jesus said we are made clean by the Word He Speaks ( see John 15:3 )  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

This is what Paul was referring to by the water of washing by the Word ( see Eph 5:26 ) see above scriptures plus Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This is what Jesus was referring to when He said He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.[/u]

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us Righteousness ( see John 16:10 )

And all of this He does by the Word

by all that is recorded in that word

What's the point of your distinction?

Just putting the scriptures with you remarks. Yes we are saved by the whole word not just a pick and chose type

 

Are you saying all scripture is profitable?

I know that but that's a little different than the point I was making

My point is WE ARE WASHED BY THE WORD specifically

THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST JESUS

We are NOT washed by literal water, and it is not immersion in a body of water that cleanses us or Sanctifies us

BUT rather THE WORD!


This is why Faith comes by hearing the Word ( see Romans 10:17 )

This is why Jesus said we are made clean by the Word He Speaks ( see John 15:3 )

This is what Paul was referring to by the water of washing by the Word ( see Eph 5:26 )

This is what Jesus was referring to when He said

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us Righteousness ( see John 16:10 )

And all of this He does by the Word

The Holy Spirit does His Sanctification work and ministry by the Power of the Word


This is why Faith comes by hearing the Word ( see Romans 10:17 )

This is why Jesus said we are made clean by the Word He Speaks ( see John 15:3 )

This is what Paul was referring to by the water of washing by the Word ( see Eph 5:26 )

This is what Jesus was referring to when He said

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us Righteousness ( see John 16:10 )

And all of this He does by the Word

Yes true that is one way to see it but is it complete does it cover all that is talked about in the word? Are we giving justice to all taught on this matter as a whole. That is the question we must ask ourselves.

gospel,

Are you saying all scripture is profitable?

I know that but that's a little different than the point I was making

My point is WE ARE WASHED BY THE WORD specifically

THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST JESUS

We are NOT washed by literal water, and it is not immersion in a body of water that cleanses us or Sanctifies us

BUT rather THE WORD!


This is why Faith comes by hearing the Word ( see Romans 10:17 )

so Jesus was just kidding when He sent the leper to the Jordan to dip 10 times in the water. Or the lame man being dippid in the pool. Or the man being lowered into the audience from the roof and many other examples.  Why did Jesus take spittle and heal the blind  man.  In every case He said, thy faith has made thee whole.  Does Jesus just want us to do things without meaning? Just void exercises?  They are all acts of faith. Faith alone is dead. But some just do not get how faith works.

Every single sacrament has a physical realm to it. Does Christ really need water to baptise us?  Does He really need to use Bread and Wine, or oil, or priests.  We are physical people living in a physical world with spatial and physical elements.  They are all aids for man to help him understand how God works and is then exercises of faith by man.

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us Righteousness ( see John 16:10 )

And all of this He does by the Word

 but meaningless unless man responds to that conviction. The same with the word. All men will hear His word, all are taught by God, all men are called by God, but yet not all men respond with a favorable, or positive answer.  Another spike in the coffin of predestination. If man was predestined, all this work of God would be unnecessary. If man is already saved by decree or not saved, what good is the word?  What good is the Holy Spirit convicting you. Does God need all of these actions, or maybe predestination is not a viable scriptural teaching. 

There is not some magical working here that all you need to do is bask in the Word, and you are saved and sanctified.  God does not act unilaterally when it comes to our personal salvation. It is wholly a mutual, cooperation between both.  That is how he set it up, why He created man as He did.

Manna to you Gospel for the truthful response above.

gospel,

Aww c'mon what are you saying now... these people deserve credit for what Jesus did?

the woman caught in adultery was GUILTY as charged what did she do to be forgiven?

The man at the pool 38 years waiting for the water to be stirred starting making excuses Jesus just said PICK UP YOUR MAT AND WALK!

Again he had nothing to do with The Grace shown Him by Jesus

The Centurion wasn't even a Jew and Jesus offered to go to his house...a violation of the Law

What they all had in common is they believed Jesus could do what they believed Him for!

so we have come a long way. You are no longer a predestinarian. You actually believe that man has a choice, that God does not force him to believe. Great. everyone was an act of faith. NOt faith alone  however.

Yep ...that means they relied on, depended upon, trusted in, was assured in Jesus not themselves nor their faith JESUS!

but that is precisely what faith is, doing it. It was their faith, Jesus says it was their faith, not His. And it was not because God predestined them to believe. It was a free choice of all of them to believe.

Yet they represent a spiritual truth...themselves they are not the Truth but a representation of a Truth

They are the Truth, not a representation of it. EVery sacrament is salvfic. Everything we do is a sacrament, our very lives are a sacrament to God.

Maybe you should ask yourself if God does the drawing does He draw everyone?

why ask, scripture affirms that God draws all men to Himself. John 12:32, He calls all men to repentance II Pet 3:9, Acts 17:30,

If God does the enabling does He enable everyone?

He enables everyone. No man will be able to say that they did not have a chance to know God and believe. That is why God can be just in His Judgment. Rom 1:18-24.

Is every one chosen or only few?

Every human being was chosen for salvation. Not a single human being will be lost. John 6:39.  He gave life to all men, so that man could freely choose whether they would accept his offer of union and communion with Him  for an eternity. Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22.

Is every one appointed or only those who hear?

Everyone hears, but not all will listen. Everyone is appointed to hear. God teaches all men. No man is incapable or does not have the ability to know God.

The answer is He calls everyone, even though He already knows that everyone will not BELIEVE BUT calling everyone makes everyone accountable

You love those contradictions. I think you live by them.

He does in fact call all men. All men freely choose to either believe or not to believe. God knowing has nothing to do with the call, or infringes on man's free will.  It is rediculous to say that God calls, even though He knows, (meaning he has predestined some to not hear) so that he can be just. What makes everyone accountable is that man made the choice, not God. God does not need to rationalize his actions, like man does, or actually lie to Himself, so that He does not appear disengenuous.

God does all the work all you can do is respond

so, you think that God loves your neighbor for you, all you need to say is thankyou. God keeps the commandments for you and all you need to say is thankyou.

If you are APPOINTED you will believe

All men have been appointed to believe, whether they will or not is up to that person. God made sure in the way He created us, and Christ recreated us to that man could believe and God works mightily to save all men, but most sadly will not come. All He can do is knock, but you need to open the door. 

If you believe it is because Faith come by hearing the Word

very scriptural.

If you hear ( understand ) the Word it is because ONLY HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE

no, one must actually accept that Word, and believe. Simply hearing is no cause for positive action on the part of man. If that were true, then all men would be saved. One needs to believe before He can become a Sheep.

Its all God and none of us ...nothing but our response

Justification, but not salvation through faith.

BUT we only respond because we have been chosen, elected, appointed from the foundations of the world

well, all men were so elected, appointed, and chosen. In fact, scripture says all things were given to Christ, all things in heaven and all things on the earth, nothing has NOT been given to Him. Col 1:15-20. Everything has been reconciled by the Blood of Christ to God.

In John 6:39 it says He will lose nothing that was given to Him, He will raise it in the last day. What could He have possibly missed, could you tell me? Maybe you live in a different world, and are sending us ET transmissions from another gospel.

You and I get none of the glory and none of the credit

I don't think anyone has claimed such.

ALL GLORY TO GOD!

Great, but which God? The one that was revealed to us in scripture, or the one of your imagined interpretation which is contrary to scripture?