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Author Topic: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?  (Read 7017 times)

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Offline segell

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #35 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 07:00:32 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.


 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #35 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 07:00:32 »

p.rehbein

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #36 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 07:28:14 »
2nd Corinthians 12:7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.  8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.  9)  And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee:  for my strength is made perfect in weakness.  Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


...........  ::reading:: .............uh, hmmmm..............  ::reading:: ..............uh-oh................ did God say "MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE?..................  ::reading:: ................uh............hmmmmm........ .....  ::idea:: why, yes He did!  ::clappingoverhead::

.........no, wait..............He musta left off this part..................... "My grace is sufficient for thee: as long as you do works of wonder and such .,....................  ::reading:: .................uh, hmmmmmm................... OH SNAP!.....................He didn't say that, He said:  MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE:

 ::reading:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::amen!::

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #36 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 07:28:14 »

Offline Thaddaeus

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #37 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 07:56:55 »
Gomer,

Quote
God's "favor" has appeared to all men, Tts 2:11 yet all men will not be saved.  Why will some receive "favor" while others do not?
all men have been saved relative to the work of Christ. That is why it states that it came to all men. As does John 4:42, I John 4:14,  These are not statements of contradiction.  No one receives more favor than the next human being.  God loves mankind. In fact, He so loved the world He saved it, so that whosoever believes will be saved.  But that believing is a different aspect of our salvation.  It happens to be the part where man must contribute because we were created to contribute something to the relationship for which we were created.

Respective of the work of Christ, man has nothing to do with it. Man cannot effect it, affect it, or even deny it.  It is imposed on you as much as God did when He created you.

Quote
God's "favor" is conditional, thsoe that love God, Jn 14:15, by obeying His commandments receive God's favor.  Can I have 'communion' with God while not loving Him, that is, while not keeping His commandments?
this part of his grace is conditional. It is conditioned on faith. It is conditioned upon following him, obeying, loving Him and loving His creatures.

This aspect is all about man because God created man for this purpose. To be eternally in union and communion with a creature created in His Image to share in, to participate in, to work with Him in this created order. We are not passive object or instruments.  We share in His divine nature because that is what He desires of His creatures, all men, but gave each the free choice so that true communion could take place.
 
 

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #37 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 07:56:55 »

p.rehbein

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #38 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 07:59:40 »
Exodus 34:6)  And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 .) Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Nehemiah 9:17)  And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
Psalm 78:38) But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.

Psalm 84:11) For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Psalm 103:9) He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10 .) He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Psalm 145:8) The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 .) The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Isaiah 5:25)  Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still…….......……9:21)       Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.………10:4) Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

John 1:16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 1:5) By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

2nd Corinthians 6:1) We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Ephesians 1:7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 .) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

 ::reading:: ::reading:: ::clappingoverhead::, praise Him, praise Him, Jesus our Blessed Redeemer, praise Him, praise Him, Jesus the Crucified..................

 ::prayinghard:: ::amen!::

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #38 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 07:59:40 »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #39 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 08:42:44 »
Exodus 34:6)  And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 .) Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Nehemiah 9:17)  And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
Psalm 78:38) But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.

Psalm 84:11) For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Psalm 103:9) He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10 .) He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Psalm 145:8) The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 .) The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Isaiah 5:25)  Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still…….......……9:21)       Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.………10:4) Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

John 1:16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 1:5) By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

2nd Corinthians 6:1) We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Ephesians 1:7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 .) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

 ::reading:: ::reading:: ::clappingoverhead::, praise Him, praise Him, Jesus our Blessed Redeemer, praise Him, praise Him, Jesus the Crucified..................

 ::prayinghard:: ::amen!::


Psalm 84:11) For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

So receiving grace is conditional upon walking uprightly.

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #39 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 08:42:44 »



Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #40 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 08:46:23 »
Gomer,

Quote
God's "favor" has appeared to all men, Tts 2:11 yet all men will not be saved.  Why will some receive "favor" while others do not?
all men have been saved relative to the work of Christ. That is why it states that it came to all men. As does John 4:42, I John 4:14,  These are not statements of contradiction.  No one receives more favor than the next human being.  God loves mankind. In fact, He so loved the world He saved it, so that whosoever believes will be saved.  But that believing is a different aspect of our salvation.  It happens to be the part where man must contribute because we were created to contribute something to the relationship for which we were created.

Respective of the work of Christ, man has nothing to do with it. Man cannot effect it, affect it, or even deny it.  It is imposed on you as much as God did when He created you.

Quote
God's "favor" is conditional, thsoe that love God, Jn 14:15, by obeying His commandments receive God's favor.  Can I have 'communion' with God while not loving Him, that is, while not keeping His commandments?
this part of his grace is conditional. It is conditioned on faith. It is conditioned upon following him, obeying, loving Him and loving His creatures.

This aspect is all about man because God created man for this purpose. To be eternally in union and communion with a creature created in His Image to share in, to participate in, to work with Him in this created order. We are not passive object or instruments.  We share in His divine nature because that is what He desires of His creatures, all men, but gave each the free choice so that true communion could take place.
 
 


I disagree that all men have been saved.  God's grace hath appeared to all men but all men have not received it for all men will not obey God's will in order to receive it.  If grace only saved and grace was unconditional then you have a good point that all men are saved.

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #40 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 08:46:23 »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #41 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 08:48:45 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.


 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #42 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 09:28:16 »
Titus 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 ::smile:: I am glad I read all the way to the end of this thread before I posted, because you already took care of the verses that popped into my head about this topic.

Pretty hard to ignore IMO.  For the GRACE of God brings salvation, it is a GIFT of God not of works so that NO MAN CAN BOAST!

 ::smile::

Hi,

I am having a hard time seeing where either passage says salvation us by grace alone, Eph 2:8 says salvation is by grace through faith, not grace alone.  If salvation were by grace alone that eliminates faith and why would the bible spends so much time talking about faith when it is totally unnecessary to salvation.

I could say 1 Pet 3:21 teaches baptism alone saves.  Aside from driving the anti-water baptism crowd nuts it would not be true for baptism saves but not baptism alone...grace saves but not grace alone...faith saves but not faith alone...repentance saves but not repentance only, confession saves but not confession alone....

So what condition do you put on faith as you said grace is conditional. It takes faith to believe in grace, which by the way grace is nothing more than the life, death and resurrection of Christ who bore all our sins even though we did not deserve it. Is grace for everyone, yes, but not everyone will come to Gods grace (Jesus).

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Offline segell

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #43 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 11:10:14 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.


 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

i just wonder what that maintenance plan looks like. 

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #43 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 11:10:14 »

Offline gospel

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #44 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 11:30:02 »
Exodus 34:6)  And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 .) Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Nehemiah 9:17)  And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
Psalm 78:38) But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.

Psalm 84:11) For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Psalm 103:9) He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10 .) He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Psalm 145:8) The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 .) The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Isaiah 5:25)  Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still…….......……9:21)       Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.………10:4) Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

John 1:16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 1:5) By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

2nd Corinthians 6:1) We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Ephesians 1:7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 .) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

 ::reading:: ::reading:: ::clappingoverhead::, praise Him, praise Him, Jesus our Blessed Redeemer, praise Him, praise Him, Jesus the Crucified..................

 ::prayinghard:: ::amen!::


Psalm 84:11) For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

So receiving grace is conditional upon walking uprightly.

Some where along the way you have forgotten you only walk uprightly in Christ Jesus....you yourself, on your own apart from being IN CHRIST cannot walk uprightly.

In other words this verse applies to all Christian Believers who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior

 

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #45 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 11:34:42 »
Many threads about grace have been started and having look through them, I have not found one yet that proves salvation is by 'grace alone'.  (A book some person wrote does not prove it, sorry)

Here is a thread where those who believe salvation is by grace alone can post that mysterious, elusive verse.  The only qualifier I have is that any verse(s) posted must already have the word "only" or "alone" in it, that is, either word cannot be added to or assumed into the verse.  If people could add to or assume ideas into the bible then everyone, anyone can make the bible say whatever they desire for it to say.

"Grace" and "grace only" are not the same things.

Gomer,

It goes without saying that no one will fulfill your request, because they can't show any verse that will say that. However, I would like to say that everything about salvation hinges upon the grace of God. The entire scope of salvation which is offered to us through the "good news" is all put into motion by God's grace. Our faith is centered on the death of Jesus and His resurrection through the power of God, and everything that means to us...but that was because God put His grace into action. Without such grace or the good news about it, there wouldn't be any inspiration to lead us to conviction or create faith in our hearts, nor give us hope. Repentance...simply put...it also is by God's good grace that He allows us to repent, especially since all of us are guilty and the penalty for sin is death. Confession...a requirement of Christ is still connected to grace because it was God our Father who taught us of eternal life through Jesus, so when we publicly acknowledge our faith in Christ it is by God's grace that He has moved us in such a way as to make us want to confess Jesus as Lord. Baptism, at least by my belief, is an extension of that confession of faith...so it too can be said to have its roots connected to God's grace.

I know that God's grace is what sets everything into motion, and that is entirely God's doing, but the response that we have is a working of the Holy Spirit in us. Read Isaiah 55:11 -

Isaiah 55:11 (ESV)
11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

The word is the sword of the Spirit, and it is that Spirit that is working in us through the gospel when we become believers. So even the work of God through His Spirit is actually an extension of His grace as well.

I'll await to be flamed on both sides (that's if anyone bothers to read this), but this is the way I see it.

I'm happy for God's grace...it means everything to me!

Yes, if there were no grace then salvation would not be possible at all.  Grace can be viewed as a pathway God made for man to heaven.  God did not have to provide that pathway but He did, but it is still up  to man to go and walk up that path.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #46 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 11:36:50 »
Gomer don't you believe the gospel of Christ is a gift from God? You would have nothing to have faith in if not for God's grace, unless you invented your own gospel. Christ died for us while we we yet sinners. You don't have to be Calvinistic to understand that salvation is totally wrapped up in God's grace. Even the most Arminian and works oriented understand that. If you want to refute Calvinism or "cheap grace" have at it, but exercises in semantics are of little value.


Sure, salvation is not possible without God's grace.  Is salvation possible without you having faith?

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #47 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 11:42:55 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone.  

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.


I understand what you are saying but grace and grace alone are not the same thing as you are talking about.  Either salvation is by grace by itself (grace alone) or it is by grace plus something else.

I think this can be interesting.

If you would humor me I would like for you to define what "grace" means to you.

it means favor, when referring to God's grace it is unmerited favor

Is that what you think? Are you sure?

I mean I'm not raising complaints with that definition because that's not what this thread is about but if that's really what you think then how do you raise an issue with Grace Alone?

Salvation is communion with God in yet you think you need more than God's favour to be in communion with Him? What else but the favour of God does one need to remain in communion with Him if you don't mind sharing.
 

God's "favor" has appeared to all men, Tts 2:11 yet all men will not be saved.  Why will some receive "favor" while others do not?

God's "favor" is conditional, thsoe that love God, Jn 14:15, by obeying His commandments receive God's favor.  Can I have 'communion' with God while not loving Him, that is, while not keeping His commandments?

Sticking to your definition of of grace, wouldn't that be a bit circular? By your logic God shows favor to those who love Him but ultimately the love of God returns with God's favor. Ultimately its still the favor of God that saves.

Also is love simply in doing what God says? I do what my miltary commanders say but do I love them in he same way I love God? Employees do what their bosses say and students do what their instructors say but is that what God emant when He said love is keeping My commandments?

I can create a machine without a heart or thought and have it completely obey my every directive. Is that love?

Sorry I think I was drifting a bit but consider Mother Mary she was considered highly favored among women before she even gave birth to the Messiah. If God's favor is proportional to our doing what He says, what exactly did Mother Mary do that made her "highly" favoured among women? She was not the only virgin in her time and she wasn't known for any extraordinary acts in yet she is seen with more favour than most before having done anything.

I still think that even in your theology God's favor (which you equate to grace) is what ultimately saves, the love of God is simply how a person gets God's grace in your school of thought.

Appreciating the conversation.

Jesus said if ye love Me keep My commandments, Jn 14:15.  Just saying the words "I love Jesus" is not what Jesus said to do to show love to Him.  Military personnel and bosses have nothing to do with Jn 14:15.  Any favor Mary received was not the same as favor that comes from God.  Mary was still in need of a Saviour/God's grace, Lk 1:47.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #48 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 11:46:44 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.


 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

i just wonder what that maintenance plan looks like. 

Rev 2:10 "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. "

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"


It looks like being faithful and keeping Christ's works unto death, unto the end.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #49 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 11:50:00 »
Exodus 34:6)  And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 .) Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Nehemiah 9:17)  And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
Psalm 78:38) But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.

Psalm 84:11) For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Psalm 103:9) He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10 .) He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Psalm 145:8) The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 .) The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Isaiah 5:25)  Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still…….......……9:21)       Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.………10:4) Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

John 1:16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans 1:5) By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

2nd Corinthians 6:1) We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Ephesians 1:7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 .) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

 ::reading:: ::reading:: ::clappingoverhead::, praise Him, praise Him, Jesus our Blessed Redeemer, praise Him, praise Him, Jesus the Crucified..................

 ::prayinghard:: ::amen!::


Psalm 84:11) For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

So receiving grace is conditional upon walking uprightly.

Some where along the way you have forgotten you only walk uprightly in Christ Jesus....you yourself, on your own apart from being IN CHRIST cannot walk uprightly.

In other words this verse applies to all Christian Believers who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior

 

It takes obedience in submitting to baptism to be in Christ, Gal 3:27.  But the part you overlook in the verse is that walking uprightly on your part is a conditon you must meet in order to receive grace. You first obey then you receive grace not the other way around.  One first obeys in submitting to baptism, then He is placed in Christ where saving grace is found, 2 Tim 2:1.

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #50 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:13:54 »
There's only one practice that results in the absolution of one's past sins conversely putting him into the body of Christ:  baptism.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Sidenote:  The grammatical meaning of Mk 16:16 is not changed if the clauses are reversed in order:

He that believeth not shall be damned
but He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.


Offline segell

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #51 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:24:17 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.


 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

i just wonder what that maintenance plan looks like. 

Rev 2:10 "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. "

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"


It looks like being faithful and keeping Christ's works unto death, unto the end.

In who's strength?

Alfred Combes

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #52 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:27:35 »
Why do so many posters have such enmity against baptism.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #53 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:32:13 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.


 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

i just wonder what that maintenance plan looks like. 

Rev 2:10 "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. "

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"


It looks like being faithful and keeping Christ's works unto death, unto the end.

In who's strength?

With your strength together with the help and comfort of the Holy Spirit.  God is not going to do that for you.  You might wish that were so on some occasions, but it is not.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #54 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:35:33 »
Why do so many posters have such enmity against baptism.

Because it flies in the face of faith alone and there are a lot of faith alones here at the forum.

Offline segell

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #55 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:39:37 »
Why do so many posters have such enmity against baptism.

Because it flies in the face of faith alone and there are a lot of faith alones here at the forum.

I don't know anyone who has "enmity against baptism".  But I know there are some who who disagree about the purpose of baptism.  But I don't know any who have enmity against what the Bible presents as baptism.  Differences yes.  Enmity no.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #56 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:41:00 »
There's only one practice that results in the absolution of one's past sins conversely putting him into the body of Christ:  baptism.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Sidenote:  The grammatical meaning of Mk 16:16 is not changed if the clauses are reversed in order:

He that believeth not shall be damned
but He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.



Get ready to be accused of having a legalist mindset.   ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline segell

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #57 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:42:02 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.


 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

i just wonder what that maintenance plan looks like.  

Rev 2:10 "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. "

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"


It looks like being faithful and keeping Christ's works unto death, unto the end.

In who's strength?

With your strength together with the help and comfort of the Holy Spirit.  God is not going to do that for you.  You might wish that were so on some occasions, but it is not.

Then what is the purpose of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?  Ezekiel 36:24-27 would disagree with you as well as other passages going to the ministry of the Holy Spirit.  I don't know what you base your pronouncement on, Jimmy, but I don't find it in the Scriptures.  The Scriptures teach that our strength comes from the Lord.  Without Him we can do nothing.  That's more than comfort in your own strength.  Talk about minimalizing the power, strength and work of God's Spirit.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #58 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:47:32 »
Why do so many posters have such enmity against baptism.

Because it flies in the face of faith alone and there are a lot of faith alones here at the forum.

I don't know anyone who has "enmity against baptism".  But I know there are some who who disagree about the purpose of baptism.  But I don't know any who have enmity against what the Bible presents as baptism.  Differences yes.  Enmity no.

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

What is there to disagree about?

Offline gospel

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #59 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:52:41 »
Why do so many posters have such enmity against baptism.

Enmity is the wrong word

Actually we are adverse to you guys abusing it....taking Glory from the Holy Spirit for the act of God in renewing our hearts giving us new life in Christ
and giving that glory to an act of man

Because the event, True Baptism whereby we are immersed into the Body of Jesus occurs in our hearts not in a body of water

It is the unseen work and ministry of the Holy Spirit, the pricking, cutting and circumcision of our hearts that brings us into fellowship with God and does not rely or hinge upon being immersed in water

The preponderance of scripture making this plain and evident is overwhelming

for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Romans 10:10

Believing on the Lord Jesus in one's heart RESULTS in RIGHTEOUSNESS!

BELIEF IN JESUS AS ONE'S LORD AND SAVIOR HAS A DIRECT RESULT

Confessing the Lord Jesus as one's Lord and Savior RESULTS in SALVATION!

THEREFORE

If one does not first have true belief in the Lord Jesus as Savior, IN ONES HEART and is baptized anyway one has not been immersed in a way that matters to God

No matter how many times one has been dipped

And if you'd be honest some people are baptized repeatedly throughout their lives in the false belief that Water Baptism saves or that Jesus saves through it

Jesus saves through what we believe about Him

Water baptism only symbolizes it

That's for us, our benefit, something we can see to represent what we cannot

God on the other hand knows the heart..Baptism or not

The same way Jesus knew the heart of the thief and the heart of Zaccheaus

They both were immersed into the Body of Christ...not water


 






« Last Edit: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 13:17:17 by gospel »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #60 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 12:59:17 »
Show me the verse that says "Christ did His part and we must do our part"?  Word for word, Gomer.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.

How about your obedience?  Praiseworthy?  It must be because I know Christ's part is holy and wholly praiseworthy.  So your part must be too, right?


You answer a question with a question.

All I am asking for is that verse that says salvation is by 'grace alone".  Why did you not post a verse?

I was just responding to the what I believe to be the silliness of your question, Gomer.  I believe you espouse that Christ did His part and we must do our part.  Show me where that is said in Scripture.  Or did you through your read and/or take of Scripture come up with that?

But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone.


 Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith

Grace is God's part and faith is man's part.


You posted "But I can support Scripturally the foundation for the belief that we are save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone for the glory of God alone."

Ok, where is that grace only verse(s)?


[I posted earlier how that phrase "grace alone by faith alone" is contradictory. Alone is an exclusionary word, so if grace alone saves then that excludes faith, if faith alone saves then that excludes grace.]

Now Gomer, be honest.  Your part doesn't stop with just faith, does it?

Rev 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."
 

I need just maintain my faith unto death.

i just wonder what that maintenance plan looks like.  

Rev 2:10 "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. "

Rev 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"


It looks like being faithful and keeping Christ's works unto death, unto the end.

In who's strength?

With your strength together with the help and comfort of the Holy Spirit.  God is not going to do that for you.  You might wish that were so on some occasions, but it is not.

Then what is the purpose of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?  Ezekiel 36:24-27 would disagree with you as well as other passages going to the ministry of the Holy Spirit.  I don't know what you base your pronouncement on, Jimmy, but I don't find it in the Scriptures.  The Scriptures teach that our strength comes from the Lord.  Without Him we can do nothing.  That's more than comfort in your own strength.  Talk about minimalizing the power, strength and work of God's Spirit.

In a nutshell, the purpose of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is sanctification. And the bulk of the NT writings following the gospels and Acts is mostly about sanctification.   But given what you seem to believe about this, the whole concept of sanctification is pretty much moot.

If you would like to discuss that we certainly could, but it would probably be best to start a new topic on sanctification specifically.

Offline gospel

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #61 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 13:31:43 »
The Holy Spirit does His Sanctification work and ministry by the Power of the Word


This is why Faith comes by hearing the Word ( see Romans 10:17 )

This is why Jesus said we are made clean by the Word He Speaks ( see John 15:3 )

This is what Paul was referring to by the water of washing by the Word ( see Eph 5:26 )

This is what Jesus was referring to when He said

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us Righteousness ( see John 16:10 )

And all of this He does by the Word

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #62 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 13:59:49 »
Wow both of you are being silly. You're purposefully wasting each other's time by choosing phrases that you know aren't in the Bible and demnading they be cited as if what the phrases are teaching can not be found in Sacred Scripture without the verbatim clutch you have placed on it.

Salvation is either by grace alone or it's not, I am just asking for what verse(s) that says salvation is by grace alone.  

Using that empty thought process an unitarian could say that either God is the Trinity or not and demand the verses where the word Trinity is used verbatim. Since no verses use the word Trinity said unitarian could claim that the Trinity must not be Bible-based.

Both are silly standards because the Trinity is infact taught in the Bible if not quoted verbatim. IMHO, if you care about orthodoxy you should not be so....shallow.


I understand what you are saying but grace and grace alone are not the same thing as you are talking about.  Either salvation is by grace by itself (grace alone) or it is by grace plus something else.

I think this can be interesting.

If you would humor me I would like for you to define what "grace" means to you.

it means favor, when referring to God's grace it is unmerited favor

Is that what you think? Are you sure?

I mean I'm not raising complaints with that definition because that's not what this thread is about but if that's really what you think then how do you raise an issue with Grace Alone?

Salvation is communion with God in yet you think you need more than God's favour to be in communion with Him? What else but the favour of God does one need to remain in communion with Him if you don't mind sharing.
 

God's "favor" has appeared to all men, Tts 2:11 yet all men will not be saved.  Why will some receive "favor" while others do not?

God's "favor" is conditional, thsoe that love God, Jn 14:15, by obeying His commandments receive God's favor.  Can I have 'communion' with God while not loving Him, that is, while not keeping His commandments?

Sticking to your definition of of grace, wouldn't that be a bit circular? By your logic God shows favor to those who love Him but ultimately the love of God returns with God's favor. Ultimately its still the favor of God that saves.

Also is love simply in doing what God says? I do what my miltary commanders say but do I love them in he same way I love God? Employees do what their bosses say and students do what their instructors say but is that what God emant when He said love is keeping My commandments?

I can create a machine without a heart or thought and have it completely obey my every directive. Is that love?

Sorry I think I was drifting a bit but consider Mother Mary she was considered highly favored among women before she even gave birth to the Messiah. If God's favor is proportional to our doing what He says, what exactly did Mother Mary do that made her "highly" favoured among women? She was not the only virgin in her time and she wasn't known for any extraordinary acts in yet she is seen with more favour than most before having done anything.

I still think that even in your theology God's favor (which you equate to grace) is what ultimately saves, the love of God is simply how a person gets God's grace in your school of thought.

Appreciating the conversation.

Jesus said if ye love Me keep My commandments, Jn 14:15.  Just saying the words "I love Jesus" is not what Jesus said to do to show love to Him.  Military personnel and bosses have nothing to do with Jn 14:15.  Any favor Mary received was not the same as favor that comes from God.  Mary was still in need of a Saviour/God's grace, Lk 1:47.

This seemed a bit shallow.

1. You attempted to take Christ words at face value and said that love is simply doing the commandments, as if God was saying that love is being an obedient droid. The obedience of military personnel and civilian employees most certainly apply to your interpretation of what love is. They are infact twins by your standards of love. I disagree with that standard however.

For one Christ said "if you love you will keep my commandments" meaning the people who already hold love for God do these things not that these things themselves are love. Keeping the commandments are expressions of the love of God not the love of God itself.

This is made especially evident by the most important commandment which is to love God and our neighbors greater than ourselves. If love is keeping the commandments and the commandments say to love God that would be a bit circular.

Clearly the love of God is much greater than the feeble expressions man gives Him in keeping His commandments.

With that in mind I think your definition of love is a bit sketchy.

2. The favour Mary from God was different from the favour God gave to those He saved?  So now there are two kinds of favor when it comes to God or are there more?


Offline yogi bear

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #63 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 14:14:34 »
The Holy Spirit does His Sanctification work and ministry by the Power of the Word For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


This is why Faith comes by hearing the Word ( see Romans 10:17 ) see above scriptures

This is why Jesus said we are made clean by the Word He Speaks ( see John 15:3 )  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


This is what Paul was referring to by the water of washing by the Word ( see Eph 5:26 ) see above scriptures plus Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This is what Jesus was referring to when He said He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.[/u]

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us Righteousness ( see John 16:10 )

And all of this He does by the Word

by all that is recorded in that word

Offline gospel

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #64 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 14:21:28 »
The Holy Spirit does His Sanctification work and ministry by the Power of the Word For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


This is why Faith comes by hearing the Word ( see Romans 10:17 ) see above scriptures

This is why Jesus said we are made clean by the Word He Speaks ( see John 15:3 )  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


This is what Paul was referring to by the water of washing by the Word ( see Eph 5:26 ) see above scriptures plus Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This is what Jesus was referring to when He said He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.[/u]

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us Righteousness ( see John 16:10 )

And all of this He does by the Word

by all that is recorded in that word

What's the point of your distinction?

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #65 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 14:28:53 »
Just putting the scriptures with you remarks. Yes we are saved by the whole word not just a pick and chose type

Offline gospel

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #66 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 14:39:05 »
Just putting the scriptures with you remarks. Yes we are saved by the whole word not just a pick and chose type


 ::headscratch::

Are you saying all scripture is profitable?

I know that but that's a little different than the point I was making

My point is WE ARE WASHED BY THE WORD specifically

THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST JESUS

We are NOT washed by literal water, and it is not immersion in a body of water that cleanses us or Sanctifies us

BUT rather THE WORD!


This is why Faith comes by hearing the Word ( see Romans 10:17 )

This is why Jesus said we are made clean by the Word He Speaks ( see John 15:3 )

This is what Paul was referring to by the water of washing by the Word ( see Eph 5:26 )

This is what Jesus was referring to when He said

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us Righteousness ( see John 16:10 )

And all of this He does by the Word



Offline Linkoln

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #67 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 15:16:33 »
Why do so many posters have such enmity against baptism.

Because it flies in the face of faith alone and there are a lot of faith alones here at the forum.

I don't know anyone who has "enmity against baptism".  But I know there are some who who disagree about the purpose of baptism.  But I don't know any who have enmity against what the Bible presents as baptism.  Differences yes.  Enmity no.



I would agree with the answer that segell gave. As a former RM Preacher my theology in the doctrine of salvation and the role of baptism changed through looking carefully at the book of Romans. I have no enmity and to tell you the truth I don't even wish to debate the matter much anymore. Those of us who say "faith alone" for salvation have usually come to that conclusion after careful study.

Even though my theology is different concerning this issue I still have great friends within the RM and we will discuss this issue from time to time.

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #68 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 15:22:59 »
The Holy Spirit does His Sanctification work and ministry by the Power of the Word


This is why Faith comes by hearing the Word ( see Romans 10:17 )

This is why Jesus said we are made clean by the Word He Speaks ( see John 15:3 )

This is what Paul was referring to by the water of washing by the Word ( see Eph 5:26 )

This is what Jesus was referring to when He said

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us Righteousness ( see John 16:10 )

And all of this He does by the Word

Yes true that is one way to see it but is it complete does it cover all that is talked about in the word? Are we giving justice to all taught on this matter as a whole. That is the question we must ask ourselves.

Offline gospel

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Re: Where's that "Grace Alone" verse at?
« Reply #69 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 16:56:19 »
The Holy Spirit does His Sanctification work and ministry by the Power of the Word


This is why Faith comes by hearing the Word ( see Romans 10:17 )

This is why Jesus said we are made clean by the Word He Speaks ( see John 15:3 )

This is what Paul was referring to by the water of washing by the Word ( see Eph 5:26 )

This is what Jesus was referring to when He said

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. John 17:17

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts us Righteousness ( see John 16:10 )

And all of this He does by the Word

Yes true that is one way to see it but is it complete does it cover all that is talked about in the word? Are we giving justice to all taught on this matter as a whole. That is the question we must ask ourselves.

The is a question only you can answer Yogi.....as it is I have posted 5 verses which as of yet no one has addressed or posted anything that contradicts the truth of those verses as I understand them

THE WORD IS THE ALL SUFFICIENT MEANS BY WHICH GOD BOTH CLEANSES AND SANCTIFIES US!

I for one would be most happy to entertain any other New Testament means by which we are cleansed and sanctified that  you might come across in scripture ::tippinghat::